COIE, Zero Hour, and Infinite Crisis don't matter as those events largely adjusted time and histories. They're essentially retcons.

And as with retcons, what happened before the retcon doesn't count and never happened.

there's a strategy at work here, and the first part of it is to produce a fire which I'd say they've managed to do.

The next phase where fans demand a comprehensive index of "what's what" will be part of the 'fanning' process to see if there's a real BBQ.

The only thing one can really do right now is stay tuned :)

This is a revamp not a reboot.

@The_Tree: @The_Tree said:

I wish they'd just release a series that details the timeline of the current DCU.

That would be amazing!

Who cares? They're comics; read them and enjoy them. I couldn't care less about continuity, except within each individual book. We have a new DC, why is that an issue? Maybe some of your favorite stories aren't relevant in the new DC, but that doesn't mean they can't still be your favorite stories. As a true comic fan, I've enjoyed nearly every new 52 book I've picked up, just like I've continued to like every Marvel book I'm reading. I've never heard so much whining in my life.

Why don't they just do something like at the end of zero hour. This way everyone would know what's going on. And they wouldn't create even more confusion with every statement they make. If they wait too long for a step like this, or don't do it at all, we are going to have a mess of storylines, and then i guess we're up for another reboot.

@Jekylhyde14: Isn't that only the way it works in the marvel Universe? In the marvel Universe, if some things are altered in the timeline, it doesn't change this world, but simply creates a different one.

But in the DCU, if there have been some changes in the current timeline, it doesn't mean things that happened before don't matter anymore. They still happened.

It certainly would be easier to just go the marvel way, and create thousands of different worlds, but then it is hard to not confuse people with so many different universes :)

@ohrenclez said:

Why don't they just do something like at the end of zero hour.

Yeah, the timeline and all.

It was so much better, well done and clear.

Now it's as confusing as ever... (wasn't the role of his whole "New 52" to make things easier to follow?)

i guess with the new 52 there is something like a new era. they just want to re-introduce the new and old readers into some changed charracters with new stories new costumes and new villains. things like a crisis is just possible if the characters are known to everybody and they maybe appear in each others story lines. so in two or three years we can pick that topic up again

If they have completely removed those happenings, how angry would that make the writers that worked so hard on those stories? I understand the desire not to throw new readers into the deep end with history and all that, but it seems to show almost total neglect to long time fans of a character's past events.

Kids it hasn't been removed. the continuity has been reordered. The books still exists. You love it? Fine read it. Heck marry it. There are countless good DC stories that aren't continuity. Such as Superman Secret Identity. I read it and love it. Regardless.

thank god! that sucked! too many thing not making any sense!

@drumguyrob: This is exactly how I feel. At the end of the day they're just stories. I get just as much enjoyment out of something that completely didn't make sense when compared to the overall story than one that fit right in. Well...provided it was well written.

The fact that I loved issues in the past doesn't go away now that the storyline isn't quite the same. I still love them. They didn't disappear from my memory, I can go back in my collection and read them again if I want. I'm enjoying (most of) the new 52 all on its own. I'm actually looking forward to seeing where things are going and I'm sure there will be many more issues ahead that I'm going to love just as much as older ones even if they don't match up with my memory of how a character is or what happened to them.

Let's be real here people, if DC wasn't picking and selecting different things to keep from the past continuity, nobody would complain. If DC came out and said they were rebooting everything, most people wouldn't give a shit about this decision because it's a reboot. I really don't care because I wasn't a fan of the past DC but the complaints are legitimate.

DC essentially wants to have their cake and eat it too. And something like this will happen again in the future.

I was more upset about him confirming that Wally West and Donna Troywere being cut from the DCnU than the Crisis being cut. I'd rather have events cut from continuity than beloved characters cut entirely.

So Bruce "died" and was sent through time but it wasnt by Darkseid? or during a large event of Darkseid taking over the world?

I was really starting to suspect that alot of DC's pre-New 52 history was swept under the dustbin when all of this change came about. Frankly then it makes this whole thing smell of reboot a lot more than a revamp even if its not supposed to be one. Furthermore, it is inconsistent. Certain events are obviously taken away. What about Zero Hour? The Millenium Event? Armageddon 2001? Invasion? I could go on and on with so many events, and don't even get me started on what arcs and story lines were included/excluded. Clearly the Killing Joke was included if we are to believe stuff going on in Batgirl is kosher. If anything that's what this New 52 is really becoming about a question of consistency, and so far there is hardly any of it with regard to continuity. Am I mad about it? Of course not. I just with DD and others at DC would come clean about just what kind of continuity is maintained.

As long as they kept Final Crisis I don't care. That is one of the biggest and most important event in the entire history of DC Comics and had a huge impact on not only the company but the industry... Man, I can't even type that with a straight face. But with most of the crisis' isn't most of the history re written by now, Barry Allen and Supergirl are back, when I started reading I had no idea what the crisis' were and it didn't have any effect on how I read the story.

Well it was to be expected. Let's just see what happens. This is the first almost compltely new slate they've had in a looooongtime.

None of these things "really" happened (they are fiction after all), but if you like those stories, go pick up the trades and read them. They aren't any less good if they don't fit into the current series of events.

I wish we got a timeline of events that actually happened in the New 52 and the other big ones that didn't.

Why in the world is everyone with their panties in a bunch over what is canon and what is not.... new 52 is a NEW WORLD! Ignore everything you've read up to now and just pick up the series henceforth and enjoy the freaking journey. That's part of the fun so many of you are missing by worrying about whether or not Supes died or Batman had his back broken. To me, it doesn't matter a damn bit. It's all anew; it should be, obviously, because these characters had so much terrible baggage, they had to restart anew to make them relevant. Please do yourselves a favor and stop worrying; you'll enjoy the stories much much more.

Sure, they happened. Then time was rewritten by Flashpoint. I'm already over it. Why are we worried about this?

Also, the first few pages of New Guardians were clearly a flashback origin story, they happen "five years ago" or whatever. It was not well marked.

I don't really understand the mindset that would prefer to just have a map of the theme-park to pulling into the parking lot, seeing Kingda-ka above the trees, then walking through the park, waiting in line, talking and enjoying the anticipation with friends, then finally getting strapped in to experience the thrill in real-time. You want someone to tell you the start, middle, and end of the book and never get to read it yourselves.

It seems that half the people realized that the origin scenes in New Guardians was a flashback. I guess DC needs to start putting time stamps on every flashback or present day scene. Justice League did it but Action didn't. It needs to be on all 52 ongoings now and minis as well.

As for the crisis not happening the same way, I knew from the start that HAD to be the case to make any logical sense. Not having to adhere to these crises has freed writers from a whole bunch of unnecessary explanations.

As for Batman's continuity, does all of Final Crisis have to happen for him to be sent into the past by Darkseid?

For Green Lantern, does all of Blackest Night & Brightest Day have to happen to the minute detail for the outcome we have now?

I believe that it's no to both.

The main problem was what DC said in the beginning about the relaunch (to them Reboot is taking everything back to day One). Upon further review they had to eat crow and admit that a lot of the events are not possible in this new reality. It doesn't mean it never happened. It's just been overwritten by these new events.

To be honest I would have preferred a clean slate rather than having the writers cherry-pick which parts of the old continuity survive. Seems to me that 52 is just another Crisis with a new hat, just a half-hearted rehash, that fails to start afresh for fear of scaring away the older readers and still too confusing to new readers.

I do care about the classic heroes all they way back to the golden age, but if DC really had guts they would start afresh, put some characters in the fridge until their time is ripe to come on stage.

Take Wonder Woman, I didn't like the new outfit very much, but along the way I became curious of what an alternative WW would be like. I hated the jacket more than the pants, but I could have lived with that version (as long as they killed the jacket with extreme prejudice, unlike a fez it wasn't cool)

I just hope that 52 and the purple lady isn't the herald of just another event.

Okay, so, if Crisis didn't happen, and I'm actually fine with it, but, why is Donny Hall dead? What happened? How could the black lantern thing have happened when half the characters killed aren't dead any more? I just want to know what did and didn't happen, who's alive and who's dead. This is getting extremely confusing.

We should all petition for some miniseries and graphic novels about certain events and how they happened in the new universe.

To anyone who has bought the issues, or the books, that are no longer in continuity like Crisis on Infinite Earths or any other stories, does it bother you that the comics/books you bought no longer count in the DCU? I am curious. I have Crisis on Infinite Earths, but maybe since it happened so long ago (before I was born) it didn't feel like it was in continuity for me anyway. Just an great story, like Kingdom Come. So I am not bothered that I own this book, in fact, if I had the money I would buy the Absolute Edition today. I also own the original JLI books buy Giffen and Maguire and I am a little upset that its no longer (it would seem) in continuity. But thats not because I spent money on it. I would buy more of the stories today, if I had the money. But I am upset that the stories are no longer in continuity. That Martian Manhunter was no longer the den mother figure to the team, that Booster and Blue Beetle no longer met during that series, or that Batman no longer laid Guy out with one punch.

But does it upset anyone that they bought these stories and they are no longer in continuity?

Some things happened, some didn't. Until next month, when we need to switch the two lists. Dammit, now we need to make another "Crisis" to fix this problem. Hey, here's an idea: Let's just change SOME things. You know, since we're making life "easier" for new readers, let's just confuse the flying fsck out of long-timers.

@Omertalvendetta: what about tha cash spent

they need a timeline of what happened, but then that would solidify the ages of these individuals which could also lead into another discussion: WHO WILL TAKE THESE GUYS PLACE WHEN THEY GET OLDER? when we get timelines, we also begin to say "that these folks are age x" and whatever and when we are 50, and we will gripe and say they are supposed to be 80. so... timeline yes, but do not introduce an actual time. like 19xx. do that.

This has been bugging for me a while in regard to Batman RIP, Dick grayson becoming the bat, and Batman Inc (because thats being continued isn't it? under a different title.. but still) I dunno... I ordered all my new 52 online and Im still waiting for them to be delivered :(

Stupid Ireland

This is why even though I like many of the changes and new takes on old chars I still feel bad about the revamp...

So in the New 52 is Batman much older than the rest of the DC heroes? Except maybe Hal?

Because it is said that all the stuff in Batman happened, same with GL, but I don't recall hearing that about Superman, or Wonder Woman, or the rest.

"My opinion is to just not straight out state things didn't happen. Why completely negate past events? Just don't mention them if they don't exactly fit. This way, readers can pretend they still somehow happened if we really wanted to."

That's pretty much the only way to settle this argument.

This is just stupid, there are massive gaps in continuity already. I know some are saying "It's a new universe" and all but the thing is Hal's arcs like Blackest Night is still cannon but Blackest night wouldn't have happened without Sinestro corp war or Infinite Crisis. So how can Blackest Night be cannon without Infinite crisis? It can't That makes no sense.

Same thing with Final Crisis, if the events didn't take place Bruce wouldn't have formed Batman Inc and Dick never became Batman and Damian never became Robin. Saying the crisis' never happened cuts though continuity that affects how characters are currently.

As for Final Crisis, if it didn't happen then how did Flashpoint happen? Some say it was Barry who started it which is right yes, but the start of Flashpoint didn't happen till Time Masters featuring Superman and Booster Gold. This affects other things.

I saw someone say who cared about the death of Superman, I do because Blackest Night is considered cannon and Superman and Superboy should not have been taken over by black lantern rings unless they died before. Superboy died in Infinte crisis and was brought back in Final crisis/Legion of Three worlds.

Didio has no clue on what he is doing. Either that or he has no idea about his own company's stories. Basicly this is OYL Cassandra Cain all over again except with the whole DCU.

Superman, Batman, and Hawkman are established characters in the new 52.  Superman's introduction is being combined into two introductions. Supergirl is being re-introduced in her title as well as Superboy. I can understand that. It is something that should have been done when Crisis on Infinite Earths restarted the DC Universe and that ball was dropped.  

Teen Titans on the other hand are introduced in the first issue as a team that has never been around. These are the story arcs or continuity that I beleive is overlooked. An opportunity to introduce the strong story elements that worked for a character over his existing decades and leave out the bad ones is commendable, to completely  
eliminate a teams existence is not. The new 52 has Cyborg as a possible founding member I am willing to go along, Supergirl has been re-introduced more than once, Superboy could be closer to his Young Justice tv show 
counterpart. I would hope that DC does not wipe out whole decades of existence in their movement towards re-introducing established charactars that have been main influences or secondary characters that have also been established. 

Hawk does mention in Hawk & Dove #1 that his brother died in the "crisis." He had died in the original crisis on infinite earths. So something somewhen still happened. I am of the mind set that I am able to just let certain past events remain vague and just enjoy what is happening now. Characters throughout new 52 make references to things, events, past teams. And so far that is enough for me (except I still want Donna and Wally).

We eed a timeline that lets us know what happened and whats being thrown away. Personally, I don't think i'll ever be able to except The New 52 with all these classic elements being lost.