Morrison Talks About His Watchmen Follow-Up... Pax Americana

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Posted by No_name_here (1223 posts) - - Show Bio
      The back-handed slap that made the comic world gasp.

It’s been a spell since Grant Morrison’s talked about that MULTIVERSITY maxi-series he’s cooking up to focus on ten unexplored worlds from DC’s recently-resurrected continuum of realities. Probably the most interesting stop in this dimensional decathlon concerns a semi-sequel to WATCHMEN that'll recast the Charlton heroes in today’s realpolitik. Now, after an interview Morrison did with the British comics mag COMIC HEROES (and the Brits just love their anthology mags, don’t they? 2000AD, CLiNT…) we know that it’ll be titled PAX AMERICANA and drawn by none other than ALL-STAR SUPERMAN collaborator, Frank Quitely.

I’m not keen on seeing any follow-ups to WATCHMEN, least of all ones without Moore or Gibbons involved, but I’m actually looking forward to this because it’s an homage, not a sequel - - and there's a key difference, there. Morrison’s a creative genius and using the Charlton characters as analogs to reinterpret the classic is a sly way for fans to have their cake and eat it, too - - that is, getting the chance to read a WATCHMEN follow-up while the integrity of the book is still preserved. It’s also a bit of inspired irony for him to use these characters, since WATCHMEN was originally going to use Blue Beetle, Peacemaker, the Question, et al until Dick Giordano realized it’d be commercial death for the recently-acquired Charlton brand. I’m also looking forward to seeing Morrison and Quitely try to make another comic with the kind of densely rich visual symbolism that WATCHMEN is famous for… because I can’t think of too many mainstream comics that have attemped that kind of dense storytelling ever since. 

Morrison phrases everything entertainingly. Here are his words about this… == TEASER ==

“We thought it would be appropriate to re-think and update the kind of in-your-face self-reflecting narrative techniques used by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons and to apply them to a whole new story which asks ‘what if Watchmen had been conceived now, in the contemporary political landscape and with the Charlton characters themselves, rather than analogues? So the cover has a close-up on a burning peace flag and a Delmore Schwartz quote – ‘Time is the school in which we learn, time is the fire in which we burn’ – and it all blossoms from there.”

These quotes come courtesy of Bleeding Cool, who also includes Morrison response to Alan Moore’s comments about the current state of super-heroes. Also, anybody concerned about how this is going to fit into Quitely’s schedule can probably relax. I believe he’s just doing one installment for this series of specials that will have rotating roster of artists.

Tom Pinchuk’s the writer of    HYBRID BASTARDS!  &  UNIMAGINABLE . Order them on Amazon  here  & here .

#1 Posted by Decept-O (7277 posts) - - Show Bio

I just don't know.  Not too keen on this honestly.  Maybe it could be done in a way that is appealing but I have my doubts.  Maybe anything pertaining to WATCHMEN should be left alone BUT a small, very small part of me is slightly interested.   Mark me undecided.
#2 Posted by ArtisticNeedham (2244 posts) - - Show Bio

HA!  thats what I said DC could do when news came out that DC wanted the rights to Watchmen's characters.
Just take the original characters.

#3 Posted by Amegashita (3601 posts) - - Show Bio

  Hmm, I know very little about Watchmen so I'll just wait for Liberty to come and voice his opinions.  I do love stories that bring back a moment in time, honors history.

#4 Posted by countvontrey (419 posts) - - Show Bio

It's pretty smart to use the Charlton characters. I think Morrison can handle it well.

#5 Edited by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio

I have been waiting for Multiversity for over a year now I will be getting them. Though it keeps being said it will be ten issues when Grant Morrison said it will be eight.  
 
From what Grant Morrison has said it sounds like it will read like the anti-Watchmen instead of being a objectivist like Rorschach The Question will have a spiral Dynamics view on the world. 
 
He already used Captain Allen Atom in Final Crisis as Doctor Manhattan Superman called him on using drugs and refusing to take an interest in the world he was a take on the dark superhero trend Alan Moore created and Superman made him more positive. Some say Morrison tossed a message to Moore when a character screams "Come back to us Allen!"

#6 Posted by Shatterstar (4546 posts) - - Show Bio

Is homage another way of saying fan-fic? I understand DC wanting to bank on the notoriety of Watchmen but in my opinion, its better off left alone.

Moderator
#7 Posted by NightFang (10057 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

#8 Posted by Chris2KLee (173 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm in for just about anything Morrison writes.

#9 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey atleast it's not a Watchmen 2. That would have been so horrible it would creat a black hole that would swollow the entire universe.

#10 Posted by FLStyle (368 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah those Brits and their Britishness. Maybe we'll get some Brits on this website one day and ask them what they think.
 


 
I agree, I have no interest in seeing anymore Watchmen-related products, but if anyone could make it readable it would be Grant Morrison.
#11 Posted by vincethekid (69 posts) - - Show Bio

That's it for me.  I'm straight DONE with Grant Morrison.  I was going to give him a chance again with his run on Batman and Robin but, now.  F-Grant Morrison.  Look at the ego on this SOB.  It's not enough that you've single handily have destroyed an icon like Batman by making him used a gun but, now you want to do a "homage" to Alan Moore and take his characters and make them your own and exploit them with your artistic drivel.   
  
Your fans have caught on to you, pal. The game is up!  Nobody wants to buy $3.99 pieces of crap.  Cause.... that's what you do?  You ruin stuff and we all suffer... until somebody else fixes it later.   
 
Leave WATCHMEN alone.  Alan "The Man" Moore already told DC to stick it up there arses when they told him they would sell him back the rights to WATCHMEN if he would do prequels and sequels. Now, the money grubbing machine at DC decides to let Morrison do something with Alan Moore's stuff.  Great.  Gordon Gekko mentally.  Anything to make a buck.  
 
WATCHMEN is a stand alone piece. That's it.  ONE.   Moore said it to us from the beginning.  If your a REAL comic fan you will understand this. Stop buying into the corporate machine of crap.
 
You know I'm right people.  Morrison stuff has been terrible. Final Crisis was just god awful.  A book filled with non comprehensive garbage that went off on these weird tangents that didn't help or tell a cohesive story at all.   
 
Then DC lets him do RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE.  Don't get me started on that piece of crap too.
 
The balls on him.  Now, he wants to expand his take on the Multiverse.  Dude, back the F- off.  You've done enough damage already at DC. You've jumped the shark buddy.  I've said it before but, I really mean it now. I think it time for you to take some time off and leave the good writing to the infinite talent pool that DC has...cause your NOT ONE of THEM.

#12 Posted by SuperXAsh (510 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow... Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely must be frikkin' joined at the hip. e_e 
 
Does EVERYTHING Morrison do need to have Quitely drawing it??? Seriously...  
 
*dislikes Quitely's style at times*

#13 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@vincethekid: It is not Moore's characters it is the Charlton characters and judging from his comments it seems the opposite of the characters in Watchmen.  
 
The same can be said for Alan Moore who's work consists of taking an older concept and redoing it that is what Watchmen is in the first place and as long as Grant Morrison sells allot and people like his stuff he will continue to get work. 
#14 Posted by blueninjapanther (676 posts) - - Show Bio

dang, batman owned that guy!!!!
#15 Posted by NecroKat (3 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a tad wary of this. It has the potential to be terribly, horribly awful.  And a very great potential at that.
 
But... the curious cat in me persists. It might be interesting, and it's at least worth the time to give it a look. Guess I'll just have to see then.

#16 Posted by geraldthesloth (33313 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I'll always give Morrison a shot.

#17 Posted by longbowhunter (7083 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the idea. I dont see how this will degrade the integrity of Watchmen. Sorta' a "What If" scenario starring Charlton characters and drawn by Frank Quietly. How do I not say yes?
#18 Posted by noj (1084 posts) - - Show Bio
@vincethekid: Wow you wanna calm down. At least get your facts straight before going off on a super rant. Morrison isnt using the Watchmen characters he is using the original Charlton characters that the Watchmen were based on and putting them in a similar setting. It is in no way a sequel so yes Watchmen will remain a standalone piece. Also, if you want to talk about a ego just look at Alan Moore. That guy is just a straight up holier than thou douche. He gets on my nerves every time he spouts his self important garbage. Sure he was a great writer but now he is just some paranoid old man who believes no one could ever be better than him. Oh and by the way, Grant Morrison's works are just plain awesome so I'm sure this will be too.
#19 Posted by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio
@noj:   
I completely agree.  Can't wait to hear about how Alan Moore bitches about how "insulting this is to the genius of his own work." I love grant morrison and frank quietly, i know they'll do a good job. But alan moore does not need any more praise for that ego of his. if that jack ass could bend back and kiss his own ass he'd never write agian.
#20 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh wow I just noticed that Comedian is Peacemaker, Rorschach is Question, and Niteowl is Blue Beetle.

#21 Posted by tonis (6202 posts) - - Show Bio

Well explained Tom. 
I'm glad they are taking the homage, and not the sequel approach. That is certainly the only way to handle this material properly. 
 
Being a big fan of some of the old Charlton characters, I'm looking forward to this.

#22 Edited by ArtisticNeedham (2244 posts) - - Show Bio

#23 Posted by vincethekid (69 posts) - - Show Bio

@noj: 
Morrison had some hits back in the day don't get me wrong but, now...that ship looooong has sailed.   Don't tell me you like Final Crisis and Return of Bruce Wayne?   You seem like you know your stuff but, lets be real here. I mean it doesn't take a genius to see that bad is bad.  Yeah, Alan Moore is eccentric and a little odd but, most creative guys that create great pieces of art usually are. You don't thing Di Vinci, Piassco, Van Gough, etc. were thought as old dudes who spout their self garbage in their time. Your boy Morrison doesn't even compare to Moore.  There not even in the same league. Hell,  not even the same sport.   
 
Moore doesn't think he's better than anyone.  He just throws his stuff out and people gravitate to it cause it good.  His works impacts people on a deeper level than your run of the mill comic writer like Morrison.  Morrison doesn't have a class taught at Harvard about any of his work now does he?  You got to kinda respect a guy who tells a huge corporate conglomerate like DC.  I'm not selling out.  This is how my material is supposed to be and I don't want anything to do with any other medium that's not what I used to put it out in the first place. 
 
Also, I think an expanded the DC multiverse would be cool to see.  It doesn't matter if it's the original Charlton characters or not but, your boy Morrison doesn't necessarily need to be the one who writes it.  Moore would be the ideal person due to his history with the material.  That's probably not going to happen though. I am willing to see another top tier writer take a crack at the material but, not Morrison. One thing for sure, in the history of  writing comics Morrison's work would be a foot note at best to the work of Alan Moore.    

#24 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@vincethekid: What gets People mad about Moore is that he does the same thing time and time again which is use other concepts and characters he also drew some heat for asking David Loyd and Dave Gibbons to say thank you to him when they were equal creators. And Morrison's own work is equally respected as a counterpoint to Moore's style. 
#25 Posted by vincethekid (69 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mbecks14:  Dude, our whole comic industry is full of big EGO's.  From the writers to the comic artists.  I'm not saying Moore doesn't have an ego.  He does but,     who doesn't???
#26 Posted by -chapel- (379 posts) - - Show Bio
@vincethekid said:
"That's it for me.  I'm straight DONE with Grant Morrison.  I was going to give him a chance again with his run on Batman and Robin but, now.  F-Grant Morrison.  Look at the ego on this SOB.  It's not enough that you've single handily have destroyed an icon like Batman by making him used a gun but, now you want to do a "homage" to Alan Moore and take his characters and make them your own and exploit them with your artistic drivel.     Your fans have caught on to you, pal. The game is up!  Nobody wants to buy $3.99 pieces of crap.  Cause.... that's what you do?  You ruin stuff and we all suffer... until somebody else fixes it later.    Leave WATCHMEN alone.  Alan "The Man" Moore already told DC to stick it up there arses when they told him they would sell him back the rights to WATCHMEN if he would do prequels and sequels. Now, the money grubbing machine at DC decides to let Morrison do something with Alan Moore's stuff.  Great.  Gordon Gekko mentally.  Anything to make a buck.   WATCHMEN is a stand alone piece. That's it.  ONE.   Moore said it to us from the beginning.  If your a REAL comic fan you will understand this. Stop buying into the corporate machine of crap. You know I'm right people.  Morrison stuff has been terrible. Final Crisis was just god awful.  A book filled with non comprehensive garbage that went off on these weird tangents that didn't help or tell a cohesive story at all.    Then DC lets him do RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE.  Don't get me started on that piece of crap too. The balls on him.  Now, he wants to expand his take on the Multiverse.  Dude, back the F- off.  You've done enough damage already at DC. You've jumped the shark buddy.  I've said it before but, I really mean it now. I think it time for you to take some time off and leave the good writing to the infinite talent pool that DC has...cause your NOT ONE of THEM. "


DITT-F**&ING-O!
#27 Posted by EricM (9 posts) - - Show Bio
@-chapel- said:
" @vincethekid said:
"That's it for me.  I'm straight DONE with Grant Morrison.  I was going to give him a chance again with his run on Batman and Robin but, now.  F-Grant Morrison.  Look at the ego on this SOB.  It's not enough that you've single handily have destroyed an icon like Batman by making him used a gun but, now you want to do a "homage" to Alan Moore and take his characters and make them your own and exploit them with your artistic drivel.     Your fans have caught on to you, pal. The game is up!  Nobody wants to buy $3.99 pieces of crap.  Cause.... that's what you do?  You ruin stuff and we all suffer... until somebody else fixes it later.    Leave WATCHMEN alone.  Alan "The Man" Moore already told DC to stick it up there arses when they told him they would sell him back the rights to WATCHMEN if he would do prequels and sequels. Now, the money grubbing machine at DC decides to let Morrison do something with Alan Moore's stuff.  Great.  Gordon Gekko mentally.  Anything to make a buck.   WATCHMEN is a stand alone piece. That's it.  ONE.   Moore said it to us from the beginning.  If your a REAL comic fan you will understand this. Stop buying into the corporate machine of crap. You know I'm right people.  Morrison stuff has been terrible. Final Crisis was just god awful.  A book filled with non comprehensive garbage that went off on these weird tangents that didn't help or tell a cohesive story at all.    Then DC lets him do RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE.  Don't get me started on that piece of crap too. The balls on him.  Now, he wants to expand his take on the Multiverse.  Dude, back the F- off.  You've done enough damage already at DC. You've jumped the shark buddy.  I've said it before but, I really mean it now. I think it time for you to take some time off and leave the good writing to the infinite talent pool that DC has...cause your NOT ONE of THEM. "
DITT-F**&ING-O! "
Agreed!  Morrison can F-Off.  His stuff as of late has been crap, and he's going to do nothing but hurt the Watchmen legacy.
#28 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

This is what Morrison said as a prediction to Moore's response:
 

They’re designed to be told over and over again. If you were an Aboriginal kid or a tribal shaman, that’s what you’d do, you’d participate in the recycling of old stories, the ‘revamping’ of characters and scenarios, the explaining away of plot holes. Some to the job with more skill than others, but if you work with Marvel, DC or other companies’ pulp fiction characters, you’re basically repainting pictures of the ancestors on cave walls.

 
Now I don't know about everyone else, but to me that sounds like the lamest, most piss poor way of saying "I can't really come up with genuinely original ideas anymore so I'm just going to copy someone else's idea."
 
Leave Watchmen alone.
#29 Edited by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138: It is not a copy of Watchmen it is the Charlton characters in the same fashion and the Watchmen is a story already done it is the Charlton characters it's ending is from the Outer Limits that story itself is also not original. Look at Alan Moore's last couple of books or half his work it is the same thing which is take older concepts and reuse them.  In fact the whole concept of Watchmen is very close to an influential novel to comic book fans turned writers called  
 Super-Folks which was published in the last seventies it was the first take like that on heroes and probably something inspired that.
#30 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio

hahahaha, you people are hilarious! you're mad at Morrison for not doing something original? do you know who Alan Moore is? 
 
Alan Moore is all about taking used stuff and making it different, Morrison has done some of the most original stuff I've read 
 
neither writer is my favorite but seriously, I have to take Darick Robertson's view on these things, if you condemn someone for refreshing Watchmen, then you condemn Alan Moore for writing it in the first place 
 
besides, the Watchmen story is in need of a refresher, the political atmosphere of the time and the way comics were at the time of its original publication has changed drastically, I'm intrigued to see what Morrison can do here

Moderator
#31 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

 @johnny spam said:

" @Marius138: It is not a copy of Watchmen it is the Charlton characters in the same fashion and the Watchmen is a story already done it is the Charlton characters it's ending is from the Outer Limits that story itself is also not original. Look at Alan Moore's last couple of books or half his work it is the same thing which is take older concepts and reuse them.  "

First; the only reason Moore created original characters for his story was because DC wouldn't let him use their characters.  So yes the Watchmen are mirrors of the Charlton characters but if Moore had had his way it would have been the Charlton characters in the first place.
 
Second; the Outer Limits episode your referring to is The Architects of Fear, and Moore didn't actually know about that episode until he was well into making  Watchmen.  He does however give a nod to it in the final issue after he did learn about it.
 
Third; DC taking the Charlton characters and putting them in the same fashion as the Watchmen is copying the Watchmen, because it's the only way they can get away with it.  Moore refuses to sell out to them and give away his rights to the Watchmen characters so they have to resort to this lame way of imitating his work.
#32 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138: @Marius138 said:
"  @johnny spam said:

" @Marius138: It is not a copy of Watchmen it is the Charlton characters in the same fashion and the Watchmen is a story already done it is the Charlton characters it's ending is from the Outer Limits that story itself is also not original. Look at Alan Moore's last couple of books or half his work it is the same thing which is take older concepts and reuse them.  "

First; the only reason Moore created original characters for his story was because DC wouldn't let him use their characters.  So yes the Watchmen are mirrors of the Charlton characters but if Moore had had his way it would have been the Charlton characters in the first place.
 
Second; the Outer Limits episode your referring to is The Architects of Fear, and Moore didn't actually know about that episode until he was well into making  Watchmen.  He does however give a nod to it in the final issue after he did learn about it.
 
Third; DC taking the Charlton characters and putting them in the same fashion as the Watchmen is copying the Watchmen, because it's the only way they can get away with it.  Moore refuses to sell out to them and give away his rights to the Watchmen characters so they have to resort to this lame way of imitating his work.
"
But what Alan Moore did was the exact same things he didn't use the characters but made the reader think of them it is the same thing you can't be mad when one person does it then the next person does. 
 
And this book has been in the works for years it evolved from a sequel to 52 this was not an attempt to just copy Watchmen as much as to restart the interpretation of the DC Multiverse. In fact it might not even be the same look at his plans for Question and Captain Atom they are not the same as the way the Watchmen counterparts are.
#33 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

 @johnny spam said:

But what Alan Moore did was the exact same things he didn't use the characters but made the reader think of them it is the same thing you can't be mad when one person does it then the next person does.  And this book has been in the works for years it evolved from a sequel to 52 this was not an attempt to just copy Watchmen as much as to restart the interpretation of the DC Multiverse. In fact it might not even be the same look at his plans for Question and Captain Atom they are not the same as the way the Watchmen counterparts are. "

You make some good points.  Why Moore didn't come up with completely original characters is something I can't really speculate on, but what I do know is that Moore's version of the Charlton characters are not just better than the originals, their legendary compared to the Charlton characters.  And that's what at the heart of this debate.  Morrison's work leading up to this has been sub-par, and fans of the Watchmen story don't want to see some sub-par rip-off, sequel, parallel, or whatever else you want to call it, of the Watchmen.  It's insulting to the genius of the original work. 
#34 Edited by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138:  @Marius138 said:

"  @johnny spam said:

But what Alan Moore did was the exact same things he didn't use the characters but made the reader think of them it is the same thing you can't be mad when one person does it then the next person does.  And this book has been in the works for years it evolved from a sequel to 52 this was not an attempt to just copy Watchmen as much as to restart the interpretation of the DC Multiverse. In fact it might not even be the same look at his plans for Question and Captain Atom they are not the same as the way the Watchmen counterparts are. "

You make some good points.  Why Moore didn't come up with completely original characters is something I can't really speculate on, but what I do know is that Moore's version of the Charlton characters are not just better than the originals, their legendary compared to the Charlton characters.  And that's what at the heart of this debate.  Morrison's work leading up to this has been sub-par, and fans of the Watchmen story don't want to see some sub-par rip-off, sequel, parallel, or whatever else you want to call it, of the Watchmen.  It's insulting to the genius of the original work.  "
Calling his work sub par is always a opinion and many have been satisfied lately. But the thing is it seems like anti-Watchmen we saw Captain Atom already and Superman called him out on being cold and distant (the take on Dr. Manhattan) and at the end of Final Crisis Superman Beyond Captain Atom started to see the beauty of the Multiverse. With Question he will have the belief of Spiral Dynamics that people can change and adapt while Rorschach was unwilling to change these characters seem different then the ways they were handled in Watchmen.   
 
What's funny is if they went with their original plan it would be Greg Rucka writing Earth 4 he probably would have done something else.
#35 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

 @johnny spam said:

Calling his work sub par is always a opinion and many have been satisfied lately. But the thing is it seems like anti-Watchmen we saw Captain Atom already and Superman called him out on being cold and distant and at the end Captain Atom started to see the beauty of the Multiverse. With Question he will have the belief of Spiral Dynamics that people can change and adapt while Rorschach was unwilling to change these characters seem different then the ways they were handled in Watchmen.   "

Your right, my opinion that his work has been sub-par is just that, an opinion, but none the less, you can't argue that his works have come anywhere near Moore's Watchmen, and that's the point I was trying to make.  Anything less than epic or legendary story telling does nothing but take away from what Moore did with the Watchmen.
 
And you can paint the characters any way you want to, but it is blatantly clear that what Morrison and DC are doing is suppose to be a version of the Watchmen, and if Moore had sold out we wouldn't be looking at the Charlton characters, we'd be looking at the Watchmen.  So in the end it still feels like a cheap knock off of the Watchmen.  Which goes right back to being insulting to the Watchmen story
#36 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138: @Marius138 said:
"  @johnny spam said:

Calling his work sub par is always a opinion and many have been satisfied lately. But the thing is it seems like anti-Watchmen we saw Captain Atom already and Superman called him out on being cold and distant and at the end Captain Atom started to see the beauty of the Multiverse. With Question he will have the belief of Spiral Dynamics that people can change and adapt while Rorschach was unwilling to change these characters seem different then the ways they were handled in Watchmen.   "

Your right, my opinion that his work has been sub-par is just that, an opinion, but none the less, you can't argue that his works have come anywhere near Moore's Watchmen, and that's the point I was trying to make.  Anything less than epic or legendary story telling does nothing but take away from what Moore did with the Watchmen.   And you can paint the characters any way you want to, but it is blatantly clear that what Morrison and DC are doing is suppose to be a version of the Watchmen, and if Moore had sold out we wouldn't be looking at the Charlton characters, we'd be looking at the Watchmen.  So in the end it still feels like a cheap knock off of the Watchmen.  Which goes right back to being insulting to the Watchmen story "
Being an opinion I can argue I think there are many writers equal or better then Alan Moore and Watchmen. 
 
I still do not understand how telling a story with different characters in the story telling styles of Watchmen is an insult to Watchmen I am not seeing how it takes away from Watchmen at all. 
#37 Posted by goldenkey (2927 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheMess1428:
I LOVE it when they do that.  When it's done really really well and it's obvious it's an homage.  I felt that after I read Millars "Wanted".  I thought the story was just great, but the lead character reminded me of someone so I wiki it and found out it was supposed to be Eminem and that Millar started a rumor the movie was being made way before the movie was made to sell more books.  Then I read how it was mob war between Superman villians and Batman villians and that all the 2nd hand players were DC and Marvel villians.  Even a mention of the Multi-verse in the book. 
#38 Edited by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio
@johnny spam said:

Being an opinion I can argue I think there are many writers equal or better then Alan Moore and Watchmen.  I still do not understand how telling a story with different characters in the story telling styles of Watchmen is an insult to Watchmen I am not seeing how it takes away from Watchmen at all.  "

 I never said that there isn't other writers or stories equal to or greater than Moore and Watchman.  I said Morrison's works as of late comes no where near Moore's Watchman.  The only thing that was an opinion about my statement was that Morrison's work has been sub-par. 
 
And the way inferior work takes away from a great piece of work is like this.  Say you have a truly great movie.  Then a sequel comes out and it's okay at best.  Then another sequel comes out and another and so on and so forth, and they're all okay at best.  Soon people stop remembering how great the first one was and only really remember the series of movies as a whole, which was okay.
 
Now I know the circumstances around this are different, but this can very easily start the ball rolling on what I was describing above.  Soon we'll have people saying "Oh the Watchmen are just like Morrison's Pax Whateverica."  Just like when the Fantastic Four movie came out they were saying it was just like The Incredibles, even though the Fantastic Four have been around decades longer.
#39 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

I just don't want to see a great piece of work dragged down to mediocrity by being duplicated over and over again with weaker versions of it.

#40 Posted by cbishop (8213 posts) - - Show Bio
@vincethekid said:

"...Moore doesn't think he's better than anyone..."

 
Actually, you should check out the CBR article Babs linked to, earlier in the week, and watch the videos that CBR linked to.  Moore referred to the writers at DC as "hacks."  I think that pretty clearly says, "I'm better than everyone else." 

@Marius138 said:

"...And you can paint the characters any way you want to, but it is blatantly clear that what Morrison and DC are doing is suppose to be a version of the Watchmen, and if Moore had sold out we wouldn't be looking at the Charlton characters, we'd be looking at the Watchmen.  So in the end it still feels like a cheap knock off of the Watchmen.  Which goes right back to being insulting to the Watchmen story "


The originals can't be knockoffs of their imitators.   No matter how good the story was, the Watchmen are knockoffs of the Charlton characters.  If DC wants to apply that kind of story atmosphere to the original characters, then so what?  Outside of comics, people aren't going to recognize the Charlton characters as the Watchmen.  Good or bad, Multiversity will not have an effect on Watchmen.
#41 Posted by Pizawle (1074 posts) - - Show Bio

Words cannot describe how awesome this is. This is the perfect route to take.

#42 Posted by Bearded Justice (751 posts) - - Show Bio

though im not a morrison fan, id probably like this, since i love blue beetle and the question
#43 Posted by Emerald Dragonfly (212 posts) - - Show Bio

JESUS, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! "ULTIMATE WATCHMEN" =(

#44 Posted by Deadcool (6810 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know how do I feel about this.

#45 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138: @Marius138 said:
" @johnny spam said:

Being an opinion I can argue I think there are many writers equal or better then Alan Moore and Watchmen.  I still do not understand how telling a story with different characters in the story telling styles of Watchmen is an insult to Watchmen I am not seeing how it takes away from Watchmen at all.  "

 I never said that there isn't other writers or stories equal to or greater than Moore and Watchman.  I said Morrison's works as of late comes no where near Moore's Watchman.  The only thing that was an opinion about my statement was that Morrison's work has been sub-par.   And the way inferior work takes away from a great piece of work is like this.  Say you have a truly great movie.  Then a sequel comes out and it's okay at best.  Then another sequel comes out and another and so on and so forth, and they're all okay at best.  Soon people stop remembering how great the first one was and only really remember the series of movies as a whole, which was okay.  Now I know the circumstances around this are different, but this can very easily start the ball rolling on what I was describing above.  Soon we'll have people saying "Oh the Watchmen are just like Morrison's Pax Whateverica."  Just like when the Fantastic Four movie came out they were saying it was just like The Incredibles, even though the Fantastic Four have been around decades longer. "
No one ever forgets the original nor will anyone take it away just because a comic will be published in the spirit of Watchmen does not mean it will replace anyone's memories of it.
#46 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio
@cbishop said:

@Marius138 said:

"...And you can paint the characters any way you want to, but it is blatantly clear that what Morrison and DC are doing is suppose to be a version of the Watchmen, and if Moore had sold out we wouldn't be looking at the Charlton characters, we'd be looking at the Watchmen.  So in the end it still feels like a cheap knock off of the Watchmen.  Which goes right back to being insulting to the Watchmen story "


The originals can't be knockoffs of their imitators.   No matter how good the story was, the Watchmen are knockoffs of the Charlton characters.  If DC wants to apply that kind of story atmosphere to the original characters, then so what?  Outside of comics, people aren't going to recognize the Charlton characters as the Watchmen.  Good or bad, Multiversity will not have an effect on Watchmen. "
::Sigh::  I never said the Charlton characters are knockoffs of Moore's characters.  I said "what Morrison and DC are doing" is a knock off of what Moore did.  When you take the original characters and place them in a situation/world DC never intended them to be in in the first place, one originally created by Moore, then guess what your doing.  Your knocking off Moore's work.  And I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Outside of comics."  This whole thing is about the comics, so of course it's not going to be an issue for people that don't read comics...
 
@johnny spam said:
" @Marius138:
I never said that there isn't other writers or stories equal to or greater than Moore and Watchman.  I said Morrison's works as of late comes no where near Moore's Watchman.  The only thing that was an opinion about my statement was that Morrison's work has been sub-par.   And the way inferior work takes away from a great piece of work is like this.  Say you have a truly great movie.  Then a sequel comes out and it's okay at best.  Then another sequel comes out and another and so on and so forth, and they're all okay at best.  Soon people stop remembering how great the first one was and only really remember the series of movies as a whole, which was okay.  Now I know the circumstances around this are different, but this can very easily start the ball rolling on what I was describing above.  Soon we'll have people saying "Oh the Watchmen are just like Morrison's Pax Whateverica."  Just like when the Fantastic Four movie came out they were saying it was just like The Incredibles, even though the Fantastic Four have been around decades longer. "
No one ever forgets the original nor will anyone take it away just because a comic will be published in the spirit of Watchmen does not mean it will replace anyone's memories of it. "
When you duplicate a story enough times it takes away from the uniqueness of the original story.  People forget the original stories of things all the time.  It happens in history, religion, literature, music, movies, TV, and yes comic books.  I'm not trying to be offensive or insult you personally but your statement is a bit naive.
#47 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138: The story of Watchmen is repetitive already it was since the beginning it is it is the same methods being applied to this project so what can be taken away when it is already been mined and used by others and Watchmen itself was ripped on other things as well.
#48 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio
@johnny spam:  I understand the argument that there is no truly unique story, and I understand that there were similar concepts of what Moore did before he did it, but it's impossible to speculate on where Moore drew his inspirations from unless it actually comes from his lips.  I also understand other stories have already taken ideas from Watchmen, but that doesn't make it okay.  Heroes is probably one of the most recent examples of it, and believe me I, and a lot of other people were not thrilled about it.  Their lack of ability to come up with decent original stuff is why the show is being canceled and as far as I can tell Morrison is heading right down the same path, but only time will tell.
#49 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@Marius138: Difference is that Morrison is a better writer then the Heroes writers. Thing is that this is just one of a few issues so I also think you are looking at this one issue to closely he will also do an issue about the Marvel Family one about Overman and the Freedom Fighters one about 90's superheroes a pulp meets magic earth a political superhero earth and a Earth Prime issue the Watchmen esque concept is just giving Earth 4 something to stand out from the other Earths. If you call Grant Morrison out on being unoriginal then you have to call Alan Moore as well since there were many things those characters drew from it's ending a novel called Super-Folks it was inspired by older ideas as well. 
#50 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio
@johnny spam:   I'm familiar with Super-Folks, and Moore most likely was inspired by it, but as I said before it's impossible to know for sure unless it comes from Moore's lips.  As for Morrison being a better writer than the Heroes writers; going off his older stuff I would agree, but based off his recent work with DC I'm not so sure.  But now were heading back into the land of pure speculation and opinions and starting to go in circles with this debate.  I think were just going to have to agree to disagree. =)

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