Can a Woman Really Keep Up in the Bat-Family?

  • 67 results
  • 1
  • 2
Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes.   Everything which he can do he has worked hard to achieve, and in this way he inspires fans as no other hero does.   Every hero needs a supporting cast and a collection of villains to battle against and Batman is no different.   The first real person capable of emulating Batman in the DC universe was the first Robin, Dick Grayson.   Many more have followed, and quite a few of them have been non-powered women – Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Helena Bertinelli, Katherine Kane as heroes, and Selena Kyle (sometimes) and Lady Shiva as villains.   Does the Bat-universe lose some degree of reality with so many females?   The answer is yes (which doesn’t make me happy as a female fan.)   Women fall behind men in almost every athletic sense and while their minds may be strong, their muscles aren’t.   I will look at a few areas of athleticism to show this.

Running – Women have come a long way in terms of endurance running, so much so that at one point if there yearly gains held up they would be running marathons faster than men by the around the year 2050.   Women’s sprinting is also not lagging too far behind.   The fastest 100 m female runner is only a second or so behind most men.   Still, even with that considered I am not sure if most females could keep up with most men in this regard.   When I was playing high school soccer, the girls team trained hard in running, but when we would train with the boys team they would consistently make us look slow.   It is unrealistic to think that any of the Bat-family would train exclusively in any one area, and so the Bat-women would likely lag behind in this respect.   But running isn’t all that important, I assume that most of the characters are fast and can outrun the common thugs or even most non-powered supervillains.  

Climbing – I used to climb with one of my ex-boyfriends.   He was super keen on trying it and I was game to go along with him.   Something that most people don’t know about climbing is that initially most women are better at it.   The main reason is, generally we aren’t strong enough to lift ourselves with our arms, so we automatically resort to our legs, which is how you have to climb.   Men on the other hand, are just about strong enough with arms, and so for the first few times out climbing, they will come home with sore arms, whereas women if they come home with sore anything, have sore legs.   This all goes to say that if men stick with it and learn the proper technique, they become much stronger climbers.   Of any group of heroes, climbing is probably most important to the Bat-family.   They might not use it all the time, but they definitely use it a lot.   It isn’t always the stairs or elevator that they use to get to the top of buildings.   Still this is a relative non-factor and an area in which the women would be just as effective.

Acrobatics/Gymnastics – This is one facet in which the women might be able to outmatch the men is some respects, though maybe not in the most important ones.   Women are generally more flexible than men, and so doing acrobatic things like swinging from a rope or breaking a fall might be easier, but any pure acrobatic or gymnastic movement requiring strength would still be unmatchable by the women.  

Fighting -   This is the real area where women would be completely outmatched.   Does everyone remember in the Hush storyline when Batman was fighting ?   A not as powerful tries to punch Batman, and Bruce is fast enough to get a few blocks in with his forearms, before commenting that if he does it again they will probably get broken.   Batman is at the height of human conditioning, and his forearms can take a lot of damage.   Women on the other hand would never be able to get as much muscle on their forearms, and the amount of damage they could use in blocking would be far less.   Blocking is a fairly important skill in fighting, and so the women would be at a loss here as well.   I don’t think men have faster reaction times, but the amount of blocking which is possible would be much lower for women.   Another important aspect of fighting is power.   Have you ever watched any sport played by both men and women?   The women’s game seems to be slower with less action.   This essentially comes down to power.   With fewer and weaker muscles we have less to fire when we have to explode onto something.   This includes punches, kicks and so on.   Technique will only get you so far to overcome this as well.   Imagine Huntress fighting Mike Tyson.   She could use all kinds of more advanced moves to hit him, but he will just simply not feel the damage.   His body is trained to take it and not be bothered by it.   A few blocks by would leave her arms bruised and practically useless.        

Theoretically anyone can train themselves as long as they have the willpower, but there are still limits.   Canada’s military counterterrorism unit, as close to being superheroes as anyone in the world I suppose (I meant this about counter terrorism units and not Canadians :P) allows women to apply to join.   Only one time has a women passed selection training (similar to Navy Seal Hell Week) but she wasn’t picked up because she wouldn’t have been able to fireman carry any of her colleagues (which I would say is a valid reason).   She is a triathlete and thus in all around great shape but still was not up to standard.   This is maybe the sad truth of the women is the Bat comics, in reality they might try really hard but would often come up short.   Coming up short in the comic book world isn’t good either, it makes you either a damsel in distress or that your life is constantly in danger.    Whats the point?  Maybe none it is the realm of fantasy after all.  Still to see the Bat-women using their heads more than their hands would be a lot more realistic.  

 

   

Moderator
#1 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio

Today, I am too tired to offer up any way of proper and lengthly reply, my own opinions etc, but I am energetic enough to offer praise? That was very nicely written. I wish more writers considered such things before writing characters. I feel like its a rarity thought, even with my favorites. Anyway, tis was an enjoyable read! Gold Star! 

Moderator
#2 Posted by wallywest55 (231 posts) - - Show Bio

haha hell yes i think a woman can keep up in the bat family. Its very realistic. Why it is true that women tend to fall behind in athletics, that doesnt mean they are just weak and dont deserve to be in the leaugue of men. Women tend to be fast and agile, hints why lady shiva and cassandra cain are so good. they arent strong. They do however know how to fight and defend themselves from proper training since they were young. So i mean i get what your saying but it seems like you are over thinking it a wee bit.

#3 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio

You make a good point. Realistically, Women probably wouldn't be able to keep up with men in some aspects, but there's also the fact that there are ways to compensate for lack of muscle and speed deficiencies (SP?). Of course, strength is something you can't make up for, but why do you think Amora the Enchantress keeps the Executioner around?  
 
Biologically, and let's face it that's what it boils down to, men are stronger up top for fighting other guys off their ladies, and women are stronger downtown for childbearing. I'd really like to see a writer/artist team that uses the same POV that you're coming from, RazzaTazz, it'd make for an interesting story.  

#4 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio
@TypingKira said:
" I'd really like to see a writer/artist team that uses the same POV that you're coming from, RazzaTazz, it'd make for an interesting story.   "
 
ME! I'll do it, I already do with my own fan comic! Cause I am a hardcore fight and martial arts fanatic and love female characters!  
 
You should too with Anthy! She can educate some stronger characters all about balance, speed, skill, predicting and masking, momentum, pressure points, locking, etc etc
Moderator
#5 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @TypingKira said:
" I'd really like to see a writer/artist team that uses the same POV that you're coming from, RazzaTazz, it'd make for an interesting story.   "
 ME! I'll do it, I already do with my own fan comic! Cause I am a hardcore fight and martial arts fanatic and love female characters!   You should too with Anthy! She can educate some stronger characters all about balance, speed, skill, predicting and masking, momentum, pressure points, locking, etc etc "
COngratulations, the next chapter will be dedicated to SC and RazzaTazz! You guys are awesome. 
#6 Posted by DEGRAAF (7875 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz:
i think if they really wanted to make the women truely equal in the bat family they could give them enhanced suits to be able to keep up, but the women of the Bat family never seem to have a big problem with this
#7 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@DEGRAAF: @wallywest55:  
Both of you guys have points, cept I don't necessarily agree with wallywest's statement that Razz is overthinking. She's being realistic, and recognizing that women aren't weak, but there are areas where it's difficult to keep up. But they all do well anyway, and maybe that's the point, that there are these strong capable women, would anyone be able to do the same in the real world. 
#8 Posted by Jake Fury (18319 posts) - - Show Bio

If you really want to be serious I highly doubt any man could keep up if the real world conditions were the same as what Batman & family go through on a consistent basis.
#9 Posted by Vance Astro (91191 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" Today, I am too tired to offer up any way of proper and lengthly reply, my own opinions etc, but I am energetic enough to offer praise? That was very nicely written. I wish more writers considered such things before writing characters. I feel like its a rarity thought, even with my favorites. Anyway, tis was an enjoyable read! Gold Star!  "
This
Moderator
#10 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury: That was sort of my point, Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson train themselves to basically superhuman levels,but thereafter everyone gets in.  
Moderator
#11 Posted by Jake Fury (18319 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz:
Cool.
#12 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me wrong in this post.  I am a woman and I love what people think they are capable of.  I am also aware of the strengths and limitations of women, and trust me, we have more strengths.  My strength wouldnt be to climb a wall in high heels as I saw Serena do once.   

Moderator
#13 Posted by Vance Astro (91191 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
  I am also aware of the strengths and limitations of women, and trust me, we have more strengths.                                           "
More strengths than what?
Moderator
#14 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro:
Women have more strengths than limitations
Moderator
#15 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
  Something that most people don’t know about climbing is that initially most women are better at it.   The main reason is, generally we aren’t strong enough to lift ourselves with our arms, so we automatically resort to our legs, which is how you have to climb.   Men on the other hand, are just about strong enough with arms, and so for the first few times out climbing, they will come home with sore arms, whereas women if they come home with sore anything, have sore legs.   

 

Fighting -   This is the real area where women would be completely outmatched.   Does everyone remember in the Hush storyline when Batman was fighting ?   A not as powerful tries to punch Batman, and Bruce is fast enough to get a few blocks in with his forearms, before commenting that if he does it again they will probably get broken.   Batman is at the height of human conditioning, and his forearms can take a lot of damage.   Women on the other hand would never be able to get as much muscle on their forearms, and the amount of damage they could use in blocking would be far less.   Blocking is a fairly important skill in fighting, and so the women would be at a loss here as well.   I don’t think men have faster reaction times, but the amount of blocking which is possible would be much lower for women.   Another important aspect of fighting is power.   Have you ever watched any sport played by both men and women?   The women’s game seems to be slower with less action.   This essentially comes down to power.   With fewer and weaker muscles we have less to fire when we have to explode onto something.   This includes punches, kicks and so on.   Technique will only get you so far to overcome this as well.   Imagine Huntress fighting Mike Tyson.   She could use all kinds of more advanced moves to hit him, but he will just simply not feel the damage.   His body is trained to take it and not be bothered by it.   A few blocks by would leave her arms bruised and practically useless.        

Theoretically anyone can train themselves as long as they have the willpower, but there are still limits.   ’s military counterterrorism unit, as close to being superheroes as anyone in the world I suppose (I meant this about counter terrorism units and not Canadians :P) allows women to apply to join.   Only one time has a women passed selection training (similar to Navy Seal Hell Week) but she wasn’t picked up because she wouldn’t have been able to fireman carry any of her colleagues (which I would say is a valid reason).   She is a triathlete and thus in all around great shape but still was not up to standard.   This is maybe the sad truth of the women is the Bat comics, in reality they might try really hard but would often come up short.   Coming up short in the comic book world isn’t good either, it makes you either a damsel in distress or that your life is constantly in danger.    Whats the point?  Maybe none it is the realm of fantasy after all.  Still to see the Bat-women using their heads more than their hands would be a lot more realistic.  

 

   

"
At the climbing issue: Bruce trains the people in the Batfamily: A simple "Don't focus on your legs" solves that 
 
Fighting is an non-issue as well, a different style means nothing. It's not a limitation in any form, that would be like saying Kung Fu is superior to Karate, different styles for different situations.
 
The strength issue is very valid, men are generally heavier than women. That's seriously though not enough to say women can't keep up.
#16 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar:
Strength matters a lot in a fight.  Most fighters train to be as strong apossible while still maintaining a functional level of reflexes.  Women's self defense courses dont teach the women to stay and fight, they teach the women to daze or incapacitate their opponent then run for help. 
Moderator
#17 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Strength matters a lot in a fight.  Most fighters train to be as strong apossible while still maintaining a functional level of reflexes.  Women's self defense courses dont teach the women to stay and fight, they teach the women to daze or incapacitate their opponent then run for help.  "
When you're fighting Killer Croc , Bane, Mr. Freeze or Clayface do you think your strength really matters?
#18 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar:
Yes, though of course tactics would come in more handy.  Thw women would be using tactics a lot more than the men though, even battling common thugs
Moderator
#19 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Yes, though of course tactics would come in more handy.  Thw women would be using tactics a lot more than the men though, even battling common thugs "
You make it sound like Batman just jumps into the fray with a common thug and overpowers them.  The idea that a simple punk with a gun can take him out is very near to the core of Batman.
#20 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Yes, though of course tactics would come in more handy.  Thw women would be using tactics a lot more than the men though, even battling common thugs "
You make it sound like Batman just jumps into the fray with a common thug and overpowers them.  The idea that a simple punk with a gun can take him out is very near to the core of Batman. "
 
I think it sounds more like a game of chess, we are talking about a common thug under one example, a smart Batman would be able to assess the abilities of a common thug very quickly and the effectively and efficiently use his advantages to match up and surpass the common thug (probably just automatically at this stage). This going off the likely assumption that we all consider common thugs, are of common intelligence. How Batman assesses and then implements his own skill and ability to take down the common thug, well its not going to be the same if he was fighting an uncommon trained fighter. Batman would barely need to think when taking on the common thug, Batman likely is his physical superior in strength and durability anyway, actually Batman could possibly beat the thug sleepwalking, some wild punches and kicks, etc. Fighting a character who actually thinks smart, and, they don't actually have to be as smart as him or as skilled, just have a good knowledge of the ins and outs of fighting, and a fight could then potentially be a lot more complicated. A smart women utilizing her strengths properly in regards to fighting can if she is good, overcome her her own weaknesses, and also if she is good, exploit a males (and other females) weaknesses whilst also trying to neutralize there strengths. Regardless of how smart and skilled Batman is, in a fight there are two variables, and there are ways for cunning but not necessarily smarter or skilled fights to stay competitive with him. A smaller male or female, might continue to back away defensively until the location was better for them, uh, movie example, this movie I love, Chocolate it has a small asian girl fighting two larger girls, who are much stronger than her, she has more skill, but there fight ends up in this sort of roof pipe set up, and her mobility isn't as limited as the two other stronger fighters and she pwns them. She neutralized their strengths with neutralizing her own, and if she is fighting against people that are always stronger than her, she is going to develop certain affinity for thinking creatively like that, of course we all realize if Batman was fighting a small girl as skilled and smart as him, he would not be that stupid to fight to her ideal conditions, if he had a choice... so like I mentioned, before I think its more like mental chess. Oh, though with fighting, not all the characters have the same number of chess pieces or start off in a neutral position. 
 
Least thats how I think it sounds? I get what you mean though too and agree (well, I sort of think there are two Batman running around in DC, one that could be killed by a bullet and another that would catch it in his teeth and then spit out a Bat lol)
Moderator
#21 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @TheCrowbar said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Yes, though of course tactics would come in more handy.  Thw women would be using tactics a lot more than the men though, even battling common thugs "
You make it sound like Batman just jumps into the fray with a common thug and overpowers them.  The idea that a simple punk with a gun can take him out is very near to the core of Batman. "
 I think it sounds more like a game of chess, we are talking about a common thug under one example, a smart Batman would be able to assess the abilities of a common thug very quickly and the effectively and efficiently use his advantages to match up and surpass the common thug (probably just automatically at this stage). This going off the likely assumption that we all consider common thugs, are of common intelligence. How Batman assesses and then implements his own skill and ability to take down the common thug, well its not going to be the same if he was fighting an uncommon trained fighter. Batman would barely need to think when taking on the common thug, Batman likely is his physical superior in strength and durability anyway, actually Batman could possibly beat the thug sleepwalking, some wild punches and kicks, etc. Fighting a character who actually thinks smart, and, they don't actually have to be as smart as him or as skilled, just have a good knowledge of the ins and outs of fighting, and a fight could then potentially be a lot more complicated. A smart women utilizing her strengths properly in regards to fighting can if she is good, overcome her her own weaknesses, and also if she is good, exploit a males (and other females) weaknesses whilst also trying to neutralize there strengths. Regardless of how smart and skilled Batman is, in a fight there are two variables, and there are ways for cunning but not necessarily smarter or skilled fights to stay competitive with him. A smaller male or female, might continue to back away defensively until the location was better for them, uh, movie example, this movie I love, Chocolate it has a small asian girl fighting two larger girls, who are much stronger than her, she has more skill, but there fight ends up in this sort of roof pipe set up, and her mobility isn't as limited as the two other stronger fighters and she pwns them. She neutralized their strengths with neutralizing her own, and if she is fighting against people that are always stronger than her, she is going to develop certain affinity for thinking creatively like that, of course we all realize if Batman was fighting a small girl as skilled and smart as him, he would not be that stupid to fight to her ideal conditions, if he had a choice... so like I mentioned, before I think its more like mental chess. Oh, though with fighting, not all the characters have the same number of chess pieces or start off in a neutral position.  Least thats how I think it sounds? I get what you mean though too and agree (well, I sort of think there are two Batman running around in DC, one that could be killed by a bullet and another that would catch it in his teeth and then spit out a Bat lol) "
Yeah, I don't like that much either. I also don't like him totally dwarfed by the Flash or some B lister.
#22 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar:
I dont mean to imply that Batman is reckless - even the more reckless Green Arrow has more poise than any of us display in real life.  My point is that there are fights which Batman goes into where he knows one punch will end it, there would be a much fewer such fights for the Bat women
Moderator
#23 Posted by ld12278 (91 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that the way Batman treats any members of the Bat-family with the whole "you're not worth it" thing that he does is not just to be all aloof ,which he does quite well (hahaha) Actually, is sort of inspires to get better. Many of the family, such as Barbara Gordon, when they first started had to earn their position in the family of the Bat. They pushed themselves to become better, so maybe that was Batman's intent to begin with. The best part is that no matter the gender, Batman still treats you as inferior until you prove yourself. Do like the topic though :-)

#24 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@ld12278:
No doubt that Batman pushes his followers hard to succeed, the question is how far can he push certain individuals.  Some just wouldnt be able to maintain an acceptable level of performance.
Moderator
#25 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
" @ld12278: No doubt that Batman pushes his followers hard to succeed, the question is how far can he push certain individuals.  Some just wouldnt be able to maintain an acceptable level of performance. "
Enter Batman Beyond.
#26 Posted by thehummingbird (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

I have often thought this it seems many  a time though they completely discern this topic, however, good Catwoman writers you will notice write her properly I find her to be the most believable out of all the bat women in the series. I find often Bat Girl was put into circumstances which regardless of how good a gymnast she was would have been killed. I think another thing to add is no girl that looked like they do would be able to keep up withe Men of the Bat World frankly not only their clothes but , their basic physique would get in the way of the most simple task. Just another thing to add to the list of unrealistic ideals for females in comic books. 

#27 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@thehummingbird said:
" I have often thought this it seems many  a time though they completely discern this topic, however, good Catwoman writers you will notice write her properly I find her to be the most believable out of all the bat women in the series. I find often Bat Girl was put into circumstances which regardless of how good a gymnast she was would have been killed. I think another thing to add is no girl that looked like they do would be able to keep up withe Men of the Bat World frankly not only their clothes but , their basic physique would get in the way of the most simple task. Just another thing to add to the list of unrealistic ideals for females in comic books.  "
Batman jumps several stories down and rolls out into a run, but the physique of women heroes is what's unrealistic to you?
#28 Posted by VanTesla (518 posts) - - Show Bio

Even average people in the batman universe are more resilient to all forms of things that would kill even the most physically fit people in our world.  Most of the attacks Batman make can kill a person in real life, but in comics it will only knock them out without causing serious damage or brain damage (all the average thugs would be brain dead). 
 
The woman in the Bat-verse are made of the best that world has to offer in both physical and mental prowess (above real men of high caliber).  
 
I always think that human woman in comics that are fighters some how have stronger bone density, pain tolerance, agility, and balance to compensate from the male counterparts increased muscle strength, and upper body strength. Comic logic/balance(my opinion).  Also alternate realities don't have the same based logic as our own.
#29 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@thehummingbird:  
@TheCrowbar:
  
@VanTesla:
  
 
Aside from the suspension of disbelief that anyone could do these things, I admit that using comic book logic there could be women that could keep up with Batman.  But the fact that they are all concentrated in Gotham is kind of the silly part. At least Cassandra Cain was from away.
Moderator
#30 Posted by PowerHerc (82628 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
"

Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes.   Everything which he can do he has worked hard to achieve, and in this way he inspires fans as no other hero does.   Every hero needs a supporting cast and a collection of villains to battle against and Batman is no different.   The first real person capable of emulating Batman in the DC universe was the first Robin, Dick Grayson.   Many more have followed, and quite a few of them have been non-powered women – Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Helena Bertinelli, Katherine Kane as heroes, and Selena Kyle (sometimes) and Lady Shiva as villains.   Does the Bat-universe lose some degree of reality with so many females?   The answer is yes (which doesn’t make me happy as a female fan.)   Women fall behind men in almost every athletic sense and while their minds may be strong, their muscles aren’t.   I will look at a few areas of athleticism to show this.

Running – Women have come a long way in terms of endurance running, so much so that at one point if there yearly gains held up they would be running marathons faster than men by the around the year 2050.   Women’s sprinting is also not lagging too far behind.   The fastest 100 m female runner is only a second or so behind most men.   Still, even with that considered I am not sure if most females could keep up with most men in this regard.   When I was playing high school soccer, the girls team trained hard in running, but when we would train with the boys team they would consistently make us look slow.   It is unrealistic to think that any of the Bat-family would train exclusively in any one area, and so the Bat-women would likely lag behind in this respect.   But running isn’t all that important, I assume that most of the characters are fast and can outrun the common thugs or even most non-powered supervillains.  

Climbing – I used to climb with one of my ex-boyfriends.   He was super keen on trying it and I was game to go along with him.   Something that most people don’t know about climbing is that initially most women are better at it.   The main reason is, generally we aren’t strong enough to lift ourselves with our arms, so we automatically resort to our legs, which is how you have to climb.   Men on the other hand, are just about strong enough with arms, and so for the first few times out climbing, they will come home with sore arms, whereas women if they come home with sore anything, have sore legs.   This all goes to say that if men stick with it and learn the proper technique, they become much stronger climbers.   Of any group of heroes, climbing is probably most important to the Bat-family.   They might not use it all the time, but they definitely use it a lot.   It isn’t always the stairs or elevator that they use to get to the top of buildings.   Still this is a relative non-factor and an area in which the women would be just as effective.

Acrobatics/Gymnastics – This is one facet in which the women might be able to outmatch the men is some respects, though maybe not in the most important ones.   Women are generally more flexible than men, and so doing acrobatic things like swinging from a rope or breaking a fall might be easier, but any pure acrobatic or gymnastic movement requiring strength would still be unmatchable by the women.  

Fighting -   This is the real area where women would be completely outmatched.   Does everyone remember in the Hush storyline when Batman was fighting ?   A not as powerful tries to punch Batman, and Bruce is fast enough to get a few blocks in with his forearms, before commenting that if he does it again they will probably get broken.   Batman is at the height of human conditioning, and his forearms can take a lot of damage.   Women on the other hand would never be able to get as much muscle on their forearms, and the amount of damage they could use in blocking would be far less.   Blocking is a fairly important skill in fighting, and so the women would be at a loss here as well.   I don’t think men have faster reaction times, but the amount of blocking which is possible would be much lower for women.   Another important aspect of fighting is power.   Have you ever watched any sport played by both men and women?   The women’s game seems to be slower with less action.   This essentially comes down to power.   With fewer and weaker muscles we have less to fire when we have to explode onto something.   This includes punches, kicks and so on.   Technique will only get you so far to overcome this as well.   Imagine Huntress fighting Mike Tyson.   She could use all kinds of more advanced moves to hit him, but he will just simply not feel the damage.   His body is trained to take it and not be bothered by it.   A few blocks by would leave her arms bruised and practically useless.        

Theoretically anyone can train themselves as long as they have the willpower, but there are still limits.   Canada’s military counterterrorism unit, as close to being superheroes as anyone in the world I suppose (I meant this about counter terrorism units and not Canadians :P) allows women to apply to join.   Only one time has a women passed selection training (similar to Navy Seal Hell Week) but she wasn’t picked up because she wouldn’t have been able to fireman carry any of her colleagues (which I would say is a valid reason).   She is a triathlete and thus in all around great shape but still was not up to standard.   This is maybe the sad truth of the women is the Bat comics, in reality they might try really hard but would often come up short.   Coming up short in the comic book world isn’t good either, it makes you either a damsel in distress or that your life is constantly in danger.    Whats the point?  Maybe none it is the realm of fantasy after all.  Still to see the Bat-women using their heads more than their hands would be a lot more realistic.  

 

   

"

Good points,all.  Very well thought out and written.   
Realistically, women are at a considerable disadvatage in most physical abilities, so it would be quite hard for a woman to keep up in the Batman Family.
#31 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
" @thehummingbird:  
@TheCrowbar:
  
@VanTesla:
   Aside from the suspension of disbelief that anyone could do these things, I admit that using comic book logic there could be women that could keep up with Batman.  But the fact that they are all concentrated in Gotham is kind of the silly part. At least Cassandra Cain was from away. "
Black Canary?
Arrowette?
#32 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar:  
Though she does do a lot of just regular brawling, Black Canary does have a superpower.    I guess that is true about Arrowette, but is she not pretty obscure?  
Moderator
#33 Edited by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:

" @TheCrowbar:  Though she does do a lot of just regular brawling, Black Canary does have a superpower.    I guess that is true about Arrowette, but is she not pretty obscure?   "

Lady Shiva
Amazonians in general, they're not all superpowered.
Ravager.
 
The reason you see so many "normal" female superheroes around Batman and the Bat-family is because that's what they are. They're the pinnacle of human ambition and morality(at their best).
#34 Edited by thehummingbird (3378 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar:  @RazzaTazz:  
 
No I see I did explain myself well  , I was saying that physically  Catwoman does not look like an Olympic Athlete...>.> Batman is very muscular...and most of the girls  (not counting Bat Girl) do not look have the body of am athlete of the level that they are imitating...I hope this clears up what I was trying to say...
#35 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio
@thehummingbird said:
" @TheCrowbar:  @RazzaTazz:   No I see I did explain myself well  , I was saying that physically  Catwoman does not look like an Olympic Athlete...>.> Batman is very muscular...and most of the girls  (not counting Bat Girl) do not look have the body of am athlete of the level that they are imitating...I hope this clears up what I was trying to say... "
That's fine, but Batman doesn't have the phsyique to run across roof tops like he does, he's too bulky. The heroes we have today, man or woman look the way they do because that's our idea of perfection, we see shifts away from that look, KC Power Girl and some artists work on Wonder Woman. 
 
Hell we have Batman in three different body types, the pseudo-Hulk of DKR, the slim hero of The Dark Knight movie and the inbetween of his current continuity. 
#36 Posted by HexThis (887 posts) - - Show Bio

 Running – Women have come a long way in terms of endurance running, so much so that at one point if there yearly gains held up they would be running marathons faster than men by the around the year 2050.   Women’s sprinting is also not lagging too far behind.   The fastest 100 m female runner is only a second or so behind most men.   Still, even with that considered I am not sure if most females could keep up with most men in this regard.   When I was playing high school soccer, the girls team trained hard in running, but when we would train with the boys team they would consistently make us look slow.   It is unrealistic to think that any of the Bat-family would train exclusively in any one area, and so the Bat-women would likely lag behind in this respect.   But running isn’t all that important, I assume that most of the characters are fast and can outrun the common thugs or even most non-powered supervillains. 

Yes but almost all adult male superheroes, particularly Batman who is what? 6'4" and 250 pounds of muscle are actually inaccurately portrayed as good runners. A lot of the men you'll see of that caliber in bulk are very efficient at building muscle but don't necessarily train in cardio, they're not actually built for it. In a reality, a man of Batman's size couldn't actually accomplish as much at his weight and muscle mass as someone slimmer and more compactly muscular. Have you seen Olympic runners? The men who win marathons? They're incredibly slim. It's not a feat that requires the same level or even type of skill as strength building. A slimmer but muscular woman could easily outrun Batman, he is having to carry all of that muscle, armor, and gadgets on his body after all and it's not exactly conducive to nimbleness. 
 

 Climbing – I used to climb with one of my ex-boyfriends.   He was super keen on trying it and I was game to go along with him.   Something that most people don’t know about climbing is that initially most women are better at it.   The main reason is, generally we aren’t strong enough to lift ourselves with our arms, so we automatically resort to our legs, which is how you have to climb.   Men on the other hand, are just about strong enough with arms, and so for the first few times out climbing, they will come home with sore arms, whereas women if they come home with sore anything, have sore legs.   This all goes to say that if men stick with it and learn the proper technique, they become much stronger climbers.   Of any group of heroes, climbing is probably most important to the Bat-family.   They might not use it all the time, but they definitely use it a lot.   It isn’t always the stairs or elevator that they use to get to the top of buildings.   Still this is a relative non-factor and an area in which the women would be just as effective.

  So men are capable of learning how to adjust their muscles to adapt to climbing and women aren't? On average women have way less broad shoulders and therefore smaller arms as well but Helena, for example, is 5'10" and it's totally plausible she would have proportionally bigger shoulders. A woman of the right body type could very easily be worthy competition to a man, as a matter in fact, long arms, broad shoulders, and muscles in both are key along with strong legs. A woman of 5'7" and up with these attributes could beat a man who falls short in one. 


Acrobatics/Gymnastics – This is one facet in which the women might be able to outmatch the men is some respects, though maybe not in the most important ones.   Women are generally more flexible than men, and so doing acrobatic things like swinging from a rope or breaking a fall might be easier, but any pure acrobatic or gymnastic movement requiring strength would still be unmatchable by the women.

So not true, women are capable of so much more in gymnastics because they're not as susceptible to injury as men are....there's no way to not be crude about it, women wear their genitals on the inside. If you watch Olympic-level gymnasts training they have far more challenges. 
 
   

Fighting -   This is the real area where women would be completely outmatched.   Does everyone remember in the Hush storyline when Batman was fighting ?   A not as powerful tries to punch Batman, and Bruce is fast enough to get a few blocks in with his forearms, before commenting that if he does it again they will probably get broken.   Batman is at the height of human conditioning, and his forearms can take a lot of damage.   Women on the other hand would never be able to get as much muscle on their forearms, and the amount of damage they could use in blocking would be far less.   Blocking is a fairly important skill in fighting, and so the women would be at a loss here as well.    

Have you ever seen a bar fight or a boxing match? Contradictory to romanticized depictions, they're usually very brief. As a matter in fact, it's all about blocking and takedown hits. While these men essentially beat each others brains into mush, the whole technique of evasion is lost on them. It's just brute force, immediate and uncomplicated attacks. In that case blocking is important but in standing ground and taking blows you're also taking a significant amount of damage whereas a smaller person or a woman trained in combat would know enough to evade attacks that would be detrimental. A woman with a quick reaction time, a decent level of strength and efficient fighting methods wouldn't need super-strong forearms to trump a man. It's not a weaker form of fighting, it's just different.  

   Imagine Huntress fighting Mike Tyson.   She could use all kinds of more advanced moves to hit him, but he will just simply not feel the damage.   His body is trained to take it and not be bothered by it.   A few blocks by would leave her arms bruised and practically useless.

But Mike Tyson fights from the waist up, usually in the exact same formation and has for years. Yes, in boxing there is techniques that he knows how to use in order to render his opponent useless in a fight but Huntress is trained in martial arts. Have you ever seen Mike Tyson take a kick to the face? Has anyone ever flipped over Mike Tyson and planted a kick in his back? Mike Tyson's been fighting variations of the same kind of fight for years, he has no adaptive quality to his combat technique. He's also dumb as rocks.  
 

 Only one time has a women passed selection training (similar to Navy Seal Hell Week) but she wasn’t picked up because she wouldn’t have been able to fireman carry any of her colleagues (which I would say is a valid reason).   She is a triathlete and thus in all around great shape but still was not up to standard.   This is maybe the sad truth of the women is the Bat comics, in reality they might try really hard but would often come up short.   Coming up short in the comic book world isn’t good either, it makes you either a damsel in distress or that your life is constantly in danger.    Whats the point?  Maybe none it is the realm of fantasy after all.  Still to see the Bat-women using their heads more than their hands would be a lot more realistic. 


    But how many women apply at all? Speaking from a societal standpoint, how many women or young girls even are trained as aggressively as men are? Do we know the potential of women being that our society has measured and tailored athletics and combat mostly to suit men? Women's potential is only estimated and I believe largely unrealized, their instincts when it come to combat aren't refined because it's not even expected of females to be aggressive at all from a very young age. Did you know that in most kindergarten-age boys are more apt to raise their hands than girls even if they have the wrong answer? It all comes down to certainty, to determination, and unfortunately influence which is not in woman's favor. Can you think of oppression that has lasted longer than sexism? 
#37 Edited by Serpent (209 posts) - - Show Bio

You make good points all round.   A well written post and I commend you for it.
 
I will say though, that this is a genre where reality and physics do not apply.. in comic books, people can fire laser beams from their eyes and men can lift tanks.  So going beyond the boundaries can make sense in setting.. but those are the ones with super powers.
 
I guess with the more human heroes, it does apply when you're talking about full on physical confrontations.. in a battle against untrained or lightly trained thugs, someone like Catwoman or Spoiler can rightly take them down with ease.  Combat is about technique, and many martial arts take advantage of the opponents strength and weight and turn it to their advantage.  I do suppose in a confrontation vs trained opponents.. for example, Catwoman vs Nightwing, these factors would apply.

#38 Posted by BlueStarr86 (51 posts) - - Show Bio

I've got a problem with the way you describe blocking, as someone who has done a lot of fighting in his day and probably watched too many martial arts movies. If you are blocking by moving your arm into the path of your opponents fist, you are doing it wrong, not only does it hurt, but it's really hard to pull off. No, blocking with your arms is usually intercepting a much larger portion where they have less power and bone at the surface, like the forearm.  You can literally block all day this way and it takes less energy than throwing a punch. If you block a punch by putting your arm in front of their fist, you are likely to come back with a broken arm. 
 
Now boxers do block by putting their arms in front of their weak spots and take the punches directly, but that's a terrible idea if your opponent isn't wearing boxing gloves, knuckles+(radius+ulna)= broken (radius+ulna). Yes, it bears repeating, because it hurts my arms thinking about blocking a fist with your forearm.
 
Also: Batman is by no means the most realistic superhero by any stretch of the imagination, something to do with too many fights with dinosaurs, wizards, bears, and whatnot.  The Question is more realistic, when she isn't dealing with world-ending events.

#39 Posted by Enyalios (142 posts) - - Show Bio
@HexThis said:
"

 Yes but almost all adult male superheroes, particularly Batman who is what? 6'4" and 250 pounds of muscle are actually inaccurately portrayed as good runners. A lot of the men you'll see of that caliber in bulk are very efficient at building muscle but don't necessarily train in cardio, they're not actually built for it. In a reality, a man of Batman's size couldn't actually accomplish as much at his weight and muscle mass as someone slimmer and more compactly muscular. Have you seen Olympic runners? The men who win marathons? They're incredibly slim. It's not a feat that requires the same level or even type of skill as strength building. A slimmer but muscular woman could easily outrun Batman, he is having to carry all of that muscle, armor, and gadgets on his body after all and it's not exactly conducive to nimbleness. 
 

I'm not going to comment on your whole post because as stated above it was well thought out and well reasoned.  This part, however does bear some commentary, primarily because I've seen the opposite.  This all has more to do with training and conditioning than it does with build and body types.  On average, yes, your body builders and power lifters are poor runners (though in the case of body builders its not for lack of cardio training, they do need to do a lot of cardio in order to burn the fat off their bodies) but that's because of the purpose they have conditioned their bodies for.  A power lifter is training for strength, that's it, so he is not going to worry about running, jumping and the like.  He does not need to because that's not what he is trying to accomplish.  Same holds true for a body builder.  He is concerned about appearance.  That is what he is being judged on, not strength or speed or stamina.  So he is not going to training for that, he is going to train for what he hopes to accomplish.  A runner or a sprinter is the opposite.  He is training for speed and agility, so he will focus his training there.  He is not as concerned with strength or appearance, so he has no need to try to build muscle. 

Now someone who is training to do it all is going to train for all of that and I have seen this done successfully.  I am a Marine in real life and I am generally surounded by people who have successfully integrated strength and conditioning training with speed and agility training.  One guy I went to one of my schools with was an amateur body builder.  When they sized us for uniforms, he had to taken aside and have his uniforms custom tailored because his chest, arms, thighs and calves were so big that he would not fit the normal shirts or trousers for someone of his actual height.  When he went to the gym, he trained for both power and appearance, but he also ran three miles in well under 20 minutes.

 

In the case of Batman, he has trained and conditioned himself for the entirty of his adult life for the express purpose of achieving physical and mental perfection, which would require him to train to do it all.  It would take a lot of dedication on his part to maintain that conditioning, but it is by no means impossible.   

#40 Posted by mewmdude77 (993 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Strength matters a lot in a fight.  Most fighters train to be as strong apossible while still maintaining a functional level of reflexes.  Women's self defense courses dont teach the women to stay and fight, they teach the women to daze or incapacitate their opponent then run for help.  "
I have to disagree with Strength being a super important factor in a fight. If you only have brute strength, you won't win many fights. You need to have speed, agility, and smarts too. For Example: Most enemies Spider-Man fights are as strong or stronger than him. He defeats them with speed, cleverness, and distractions. Strength can be important in a fight, but you need these other qualities to win the fight!
#41 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio
@mewmdude77 said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Strength matters a lot in a fight.  Most fighters train to be as strong apossible while still maintaining a functional level of reflexes.  Women's self defense courses dont teach the women to stay and fight, they teach the women to daze or incapacitate their opponent then run for help.  "
I have to disagree with Strength being a super important factor in a fight. If you only have brute strength, you won't win many fights. You need to have speed, agility, and smarts too. For Example: Most enemies Spider-Man fights are as strong or stronger than him. He defeats them with speed, cleverness, and distractions. Strength can be important in a fight, but you need these other qualities to win the fight! "

Being super important does not equate to being solely important though. So you approach the statement with a flawed premise. This you get? So you don't really disagree at all. 
Moderator
#42 Posted by mewmdude77 (993 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @mewmdude77 said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
" @TheCrowbar: Strength matters a lot in a fight.  Most fighters train to be as strong apossible while still maintaining a functional level of reflexes.  Women's self defense courses dont teach the women to stay and fight, they teach the women to daze or incapacitate their opponent then run for help.  "
I have to disagree with Strength being a super important factor in a fight. If you only have brute strength, you won't win many fights. You need to have speed, agility, and smarts too. For Example: Most enemies Spider-Man fights are as strong or stronger than him. He defeats them with speed, cleverness, and distractions. Strength can be important in a fight, but you need these other qualities to win the fight! "

Being super important does not equate to being solely important though. So you approach the statement with a flawed premise. This you get? So you don't really disagree at all.  "
I meant that strength really isn't that important. strength is good sometimes in a fight, but if you don't have the more important qualities like speed and cunning, you won't win any fights.
#43 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
"Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes."  
Thats like saying Kool Rock-ski was the skinniest Fat Boy. Nothing Batman does is realistic. He easily achieves feats that should be reserved for characters with actual superpowers. This happens so often its birthed the phrase, "Bat-Factor." Batman can do whatever whenever and it doesn't surprise anyone.

Love your blogs. But when you look at the superpowered things Batman does despite not having any powers of his own, seeing women perform above and beyond their real World counterparts doesn't seem out of the ordinary.
Moderator
#44 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio
@mewmdude77 said:
" I meant that strength really isn't that important. strength is good sometimes in a fight, but if you don't have the more important qualities like speed and cunning, you won't win any fights. "

Oh its okay, I know and agree! ^_^

I was just being picky with your words. technically you and the person both agree about how strength is applied in fights. Its importance will vary, but its far from the most important aspect. 


@Gambler said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
"Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes."  
Thats like saying Kool Rock-ski was the skinniest Fat Boy. Nothing Batman does is realistic. He easily achieves feats that should be reserved for characters with actual superpowers. This happens so often its birthed the phrase, "Bat-Factor." Batman can do whatever whenever and it doesn't surprise anyone. Love your blogs. But when you look at the superpowered things Batman does despite not having any powers of his own, seeing women perform above and beyond their real World counterparts doesn't seem out of the ordinary. "

I agree here too, but thats the general perception vs individual application. I am not sure Razzatazz is advocating that he is the most realistic, more so asserting thats his perception, hence 'widely considered' part. Kool Rock-ski is pretty skinny now though... (lol) ^_^
Moderator
#45 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio

 @SC said:

" I agree here too, but thats the general perception vs individual application. I am not sure Razzatazz is advocating that he is the most realistic, more so asserting thats his perception, hence 'widely considered' part. Kool Rock-ski is pretty skinny now though... (lol) ^_^ "

You're gonna have to dumb it down a bit. I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. I'll respond and if I'm missing your point please correct me :)

I'm saying that I disagree that the general perception of Batman is that he's widely considered the most realistic superhero. How do you gauge perception? By comments, posts, articles, etc. Most of which express the overall absurdity of a human character performing superhuman feats. Maybe I missed the point of the opening post, but I assumed the meaning was how women in the Bat-Verse dont mesh with the "realism" of Batman (more or less). But in truth, they fit perfectly when you look at Batman's accomplishments. If he's slated as a normal man yet achieves feats beyond that of a "real human man" then normal women achieving feats beyond that of a "real human woman" seem to coincide with the overall theme.
Moderator
#46 Posted by mewmdude77 (993 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
"Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes."  
Thats like saying Kool Rock-ski was the skinniest Fat Boy. Nothing Batman does is realistic. He easily achieves feats that should be reserved for characters with actual superpowers. This happens so often its birthed the phrase, "Bat-Factor." Batman can do whatever whenever and it doesn't surprise anyone. Love your blogs. But when you look at the superpowered things Batman does despite not having any powers of his own, seeing women perform above and beyond their real World counterparts doesn't seem out of the ordinary. "
Thank you for saying that! I was thinking that too!! Everyone always says Batman can beat everyone, and that's not someone a realisitc person could. I would say the most realistic is Spider-Man. He has all the problems a regular person does! 
#47 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
"  @SC said:

" I agree here too, but thats the general perception vs individual application. I am not sure Razzatazz is advocating that he is the most realistic, more so asserting thats his perception, hence 'widely considered' part. Kool Rock-ski is pretty skinny now though... (lol) ^_^ "

You're gonna have to dumb it down a bit. I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. I'll respond and if I'm missing your point please correct me :) I'm saying that I disagree that the general perception of Batman is that he's widely considered the most realistic superhero. How do you gauge perception? By comments, posts, articles, etc. Most of which express the overall absurdity of a human character performing superhuman feats. Maybe I missed the point of the opening post, but I assumed the meaning was how women in the Bat-Verse dont mesh with the "realism" of Batman (more or less). But in truth, they fit perfectly when you look at Batman's accomplishments. If he's slated as a normal man yet achieves feats beyond that of a "real human man" then normal women achieving feats beyond that of a "real human woman" seem to coincide with the overall theme. "

Its a notion. Whatever the opening poster might considering as a general perception. I personally believe if I asked 1000 people who was the most realistic superhero, that Batman would get the nod. Who do you think people would put forward out of curiosity? More than that, is that such a foreign notion? You seem to be casting a pretty specific net with the definition? Thats cool too. There are various ways you can gauge perceptions, practically and presumptively. 

I wouldn't want to incorrectly project the meaning of the thread, but I feel I don't have to, to differentiate between asserting a commonly held notion and how it affects relativity. Realism to project what I guess is the threads meaning and context, is that realism is not an absolute quality. Hence irrespective of Batman's realism, relatively, female characters could be an area where realism, aside from stylization is not as accurate, regardless of the accuracy of the control. As per outlined by each specific point that comes after. I mean we know that the illusion of Batman and realism is there, by intent. Similar to Captain America in a way as well. 

Hope that helps? 
Moderator
#48 Edited by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:

" Its a notion. Whatever the opening poster might considering as a general perception. I personally believe if I asked 1000 people who was the most realistic superhero, that Batman would get the nod. Who do you think people would put forward out of curiosity? More than that, is that such a foreign notion? You seem to be casting a pretty specific net with the definition? Thats cool too. There are various ways you can gauge perceptions, practically and presumptively.
"

I understand its a notion, but what does that have to do with me disagreeing with it? What I'm debating is whether or not A: the overall perception of Batman is that he's  the most realistic superhero, and B: Whether or not the women of the Bat-Verse operate outside of said perception of realism. My answer for both is no. If you polled 1000 people (I'll assume we're polling comicsfans) then I'm of the opinion that the majority would pick someone other then Batman. Most likely Captain America. Now thats not to say I believe that perception. I cast a specific net do to the subject matter. Its a fictional character and there for the means in which we're able to perceive him are not as wide spread. But I did add "etc" so people could fill in the blanks. In comicbook form though what other means could one use to build their perception? Comments, demeanor, dialog, actions, etc. That's not to say its limited to those, but wouldn't you agree those are the most likely? I dont believe its "such" a foreign notion. However I disagree that its the prevailing one.

@SC said:

" I wouldn't want to incorrectly project the meaning of the thread, but I feel I don't have to, to differentiate between asserting a commonly held notion and how it affects relativity. Realism to project what I guess is the threads meaning and context, is that realism is not an absolute quality. Hence irrespective of Batman's realism, relatively, female characters could be an area where realism, aside from stylization is not as accurate, regardless of the accuracy of the control. As per outlined by each specific point that comes after. I mean we know that the illusion of Batman and realism is there, by intent. Similar to Captain America in a way as well.  "

Concerning Batman's "realism"...what is it? What exactly does Batman do that makes what the female characters do unrealistic? He's in his last 30's maybe 40's yet he's mastered every single form of hand to hand combat/martial arts, an impossible feat. When the situation calls for it his smarter, faster, stronger, more durable then any superpowered character. He breaks Sharks backs with ease. He fights half-man half crocodiles. His original sidekick died and cameback to life. He himself has just recently returned from traveling across time. He suffers no lasting effects from a lifestyle that should have crippled him years ago. He's fought for the security of a multiverse. I mean, when you look at Batman and what he does and what he's surrounded by, Lady Shiva being able to fight him on a physical level is the most real thing going on. Saying he's more realistic then a dude who flies and shoots lazers from his eyes is a give in. But its a somewhat misleading statement. Like I said, if we're comparing the women of the Bat-Verse to woman or the real World, of course they dont realistic match up, but neither does Batman or the World he lives in. Not even close. With a few exceptions everything in Batman's World has been tailored to fit the "realism" as its been put. Nothing the ladies do upset that theme in my opinion.


(hopefully this doesnt sound snappy. I'm enjoying the discussion)
Moderator
#49 Posted by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
" @SC said:

" Its a notion. Whatever the opening poster might considering as a general perception. I personally believe if I asked 1000 people who was the most realistic superhero, that Batman would get the nod. Who do you think people would put forward out of curiosity? More than that, is that such a foreign notion? You seem to be casting a pretty specific net with the definition? Thats cool too. There are various ways you can gauge perceptions, practically and presumptively.
"

I understand its a notion, but what does that have to do with me disagreeing with it? What I'm debating is whether or not A: the overall perception of Batman is that he's  the most realistic superhero, and B: Whether or not the women of the Bat-Verse operate outside of said perception of realism. My answer for both is no. If you polled 1000 people (I'll assume we're polling comicsfans) then I'm of the opinion that the majority would pick someone other then Batman. Most likely Captain America. Now thats not to say I believe that perception. I cast a specific net do to the subject matter. Its a fictional character and there for the means in which we're able to perceive him are not as wide spread. But I did add "etc" so people could fill in the blanks. In comicbook form though what other means could one use to build their perception? Comments, demeanor, dialog, actions, etc. That's not to say its limited to those, but wouldn't you agree those are the most likely? I dont believe its "such" a foreign notion. However I disagree that its the prevailing one.

@SC said:

" I wouldn't want to incorrectly project the meaning of the thread, but I feel I don't have to, to differentiate between asserting a commonly held notion and how it affects relativity. Realism to project what I guess is the threads meaning and context, is that realism is not an absolute quality. Hence irrespective of Batman's realism, relatively, female characters could be an area where realism, aside from stylization is not as accurate, regardless of the accuracy of the control. As per outlined by each specific point that comes after. I mean we know that the illusion of Batman and realism is there, by intent. Similar to Captain America in a way as well.  "

Concerning Batman's "realism"...what is it? What exactly does Batman do that makes what the female characters do unrealistic? He's in his last 30's maybe 40's yet he's mastered every single form of hand to hand combat/martial arts, an impossible feat. When the situation calls for it his smarter, faster, stronger, more durable then any superpowered character. He breaks Sharks backs with ease. He fights half-man half crocodiles. His original sidekick died and cameback to life. He himself has just recently returned from traveling across time. He suffers no lasting effects from a lifestyle that should have crippled him years ago. He's fought for the security of a multiverse. I mean, when you look at Batman and what he does and what he's surrounded by, Lady Shiva being able to fight him on a physical level is the most real thing going on. Saying he's more realistic then a dude who flies and shoots lazers from his eyes is a give in. But its a somewhat misleading statement. Like I said, if we're comparing the women of the Bat-Verse to woman or the real World, of course they dont realistic match up, but neither does Batman or the World he lives in. Not even close. With a few exceptions everything in Batman's World has been tailored to fit the "realism" as its been put. Nothing the ladies do upset that theme in my opinion.(hopefully this doesnt sound snappy. I'm enjoying the discussion) "

Your disagreeing with it? Thats okay, I am not sure anyone is disputing your ability, lets say I disagree with it too? Then what does our disagreements/challenges have to do with the overall point here? Its like we are disagreeing with a assertion thats not exactly intended to be an airtight fact, its used as a tool to make another argument. If we look at your given answer for example. Then you have specifically chosen comic fans? Why is that? Why make that assumption? How do you know that OP didn't mean people generally? So with your assumption you create a minor form of a straw man attack,, but only minor, but misinterpreting what the OP is trying to so, so that the answer you think is right is, and that there's isn't. Or to put it another way, let says in a blog you spoke about Captain America and how he is regarded as the most realistic superhero under a criteria you hold? Then I challenged that assertion and then changed the criteria as to suit my own answer which would assert that another character was the most realistic? The rest of your statements follow though on the understanding that we are referring to comic fans who know and read comics? We I disagree is the case,after all there are more people in the world that don't read comics than though, and more who are aware of a few of these characters than those that read as well. Then all this isn't so much an argument, its more of an assertion of opinion, which is cool, except your earlier critical arguments can also be applied back at yourself correct? With your chosen character? 

Just so I get this straight, you think more people, think that the people around them think of Captain America as the most realistic superhero? That one, or you think that more people think that Captain America is more realistic than Batman? 

Really a tool just needs to be common enough to allow people to grasp a concept and some semblance of accuracy, would you say that in this case its misused? 

Then for the second point, I am not sure that anyone is trying to define Batman's realism. That could be another entire blog subject. Then its not so much about, ironically the reality of Batman, but about the perception of Batman. I am not a Batman fan, but I read like 3 to 4 of his books a month, plus he usually turns up in my favorite DC books time to time, and I consider him in his thirties, I don't think he has actually mastered all those styles, I recognize that as a writing trope employed by writers and that what they are essentially trying to say badly is that Batman is very skilled and very good at martial arts. I bet to go along with the 1000 people perception, understanding thing, if you asked people (non fans) whether, if Batman was a master of Sumo or a really skilled and awesome fighter they would probably assert the later. Not that those two options would be mutually exclusive and if Batman did indeed master every typing of fighting, he would be a Yokozuna probably... lol but do they associate that with Batman or do they just view him as being super awesome at fighting? 

I just get the sense that your applying the wrong context intended, not that its a vlaid context, but you seem to know Batman well, if you were required to make the character sound relatable and realistic could you in the same fashion as you just did to discredit that notion? I have no doubts that you couldn't, we should be able to, it just depends on what we are focusing on. 

I don't find such a statement misleading, it depends on the context. Your saying Captain America is more realistic when he has knocked out über powerful dragons that Thor has had trouble with, destroyed a room full of powered supernatural creature, turned into a wolf, stared down Thanos, (like eye to eye lol) fought for the security of the multiverse etc etc etc I mean, by the same token, except I recognize the context you could apply to support your assertion, so nothing you say is particularly misleading at all. 

Then the main point I get from the thread, is not that they don't match up with some tight ratio with Batman's realism to a realistic Batman done in real life as in Gotham females realism, to those same characters done in real life, and so if you don't find Batman realistic then its pointless to make an example of the female characters. Batman's realism is not the focus, its relativity. We know what Batman is intended as right? Do you agree or disagree there? Of course therefore the female characters would as well, but the topics covered in this blog aren't deconstructing Batman's realism, its the relativity with regards to the intent behind all these characters concerned realism. Quite different from the oversimplified notion of pointing out that the women of Gotham aren't realistic compared to real life. I am not sure thats the point here at all? I mean, thats a one line blog? Made redundant by its own oversimplification lol

Intent is subjective, nothing needs to be upset to be improved upon. Different writers approach Batman and many other hero characters the same way. Its not that some are upset by the status quo set by other writers, some writers are just better at injecting more realism, more technical accuracy more of anything into some characters more than others. This thread points out general ways one area can be improved and the reason why a discrepancy exists. I could do a similar thread about how some writers and artists could make a character like Fat Cobra act and fight as if he was Iron Fist. Now if they made him fight extremely (or relatively) realistically like Iron Fist to convey authentic mastery of a martial arts... thats cool, one could argue that other aspects of Iron Fist like the hearts of Dragons and punching out helicarriers isn't realistic... but thats not the specific context intended. So that angle to show that since Iron Fist isn't realistic so Fat Cobra doesn't need to be either when the point I would be making here, is that Fat Cobra's physique would mean and specify differences in fighting style to Danny and ways this could be conveyed though intent? (like how the writers and artists of Iron Fist were aiming for a certain type of accuracy with their depiction of Iron Fist to ground and make the character more realistic but only in certain contexts, obviously. 

Galactus wasn't, isn't intended to be a realistic, grounded character, we could see next week, it won't stop writers like Hickman approaching him and writing him in ways that both appeal to the original understanding of the character but updating and modernizing the character now that science has evolved and developed and most writers knowledge in more fields surpasses that of their predecessors (I'll be careful not to intend that too generally, I am sure many older writers could kick the knowledge of some of the newer writers...) and so should Hickman be chastised for his approach in writing? Should this blog? The blog covers itself pretty well, emphasis on key words such as degree of reality rather than implication that reality is a switch and Batman falls on the off position. A lot of the points it covers are already dealt with and covered in certain comics already, I don't know about Bat women and gender specifically, but it pops up elsewhere and eventually many of the things covered here will be addressed in comics, because of again, realism and relativity. Accuracy and relativity. Intent opposed to execution. This is comics, intent doesn't always find itself executed well. You demonstrate this with your view on Batman, I am no different. Not absolutely, subjectively. I am this with most characters lol 

Oh, not snappy at all, very well made and put. I am really enjoying this too. ^_^ - I agree with a lot of your criticism of Batman's realism. Especially, especially the martial arts parts lol 

Bill Finger: Yo Big Daddy Kane, I am laying down some plot for our first Batman story. What martial arts style should i give him? This cat (Bat hehe) is one bad mofo right? Got to represent this well artistically you do. 
Bob Kane: How about... all of them? Our character can know every discipline, arts, style, stance, technique ever? Then be a master of all of them. Plus please stop speaking... like that. 
Bill Finger: I know you like it when I call you Big Poppa *finger click* So um... he's mastered every type of fighting ever? Even the ones developed for fat people? Women? Ones that need a life time to master just one, ones lost to us? Ones modified by people in secret? Ones that have yet to be invented? All of them literally? 
Bob Kane: .... yes... 
Bill Finger" Uh... but
Bob Kane: Yes! This makes him more realistic. Plus maybe invent some new styles as well. He knows those as well. Invent Bat Fu Also invent Oil Wrestling... 
Bill Finger: And if I don't write it this way....? 
Bob Kane: I will make sure you are never given the recognition you deserve for taking part in the creation of this character. Bwahahahaha. 
Bill Finger: Hah, he is totally bluffing... 

0_o

Moderator
#50 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:

" Your disagreeing with it? Thats okay, I am not sure anyone is disputing your ability, lets say I disagree with it too? Then what does our disagreements/challenges have to do with the overall point here? "

I'm fairly sure I accurately explained what my challenge/disagreement was and what it had to do with the overall point. But I'll explain it again. Here's the opening statement:
 

"Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes.   Everything which he can do he has worked hard to achieve, and in this way he inspires fans as no other hero does.   Every hero needs a supporting cast and a collection of villains to battle against and Batman is no different.   The first real person capable of emulating Batman in the DC universe was the first Robin, Dick Grayson.   Many more have followed, and quite a few of them have been non-powered women – Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Helena Bertinelli, Katherine Kane as heroes, and Selena Kyle (sometimes) and Lady Shiva as villains.   Does the Bat-universe lose some degree of reality with so many females?   The answer is yes (which doesn’t make me happy as a female fan.)   Women fall behind men in almost every athletic sense and while their minds may be strong, their muscles aren’t.   I will look at a few areas of athleticism to show this."

 I disagree that Batman is widely considered the most realistic of all super-heroes. I disagree that he inspires fans anymore or less then any other superhero out there. I disagree that the women of the Bat-Verse take away from the so called "realism" in said Bat-Verse. Of course when you compare comicbook females to real life females it becomes unrealistic, but the same holds true for Batman. Just because someone believes he's more realistic then say, Superman, or other superheroes doesn't mean he's realistic in any real World sense. The OP is comparing real life to comicbooks and not holding Batman to the same standard. Also, a point I didn't originally mention, none of these women physically outclass the men in the Bat-Verse. The areas in which they do excel may not realistically cross over into the real World, but again, neither does Batman. A normal real life man cant dodge bullets. A normal real life man cant ride and snap a Shark's back with his bare hands. A normal real life man cant rip a car hood off underwater with nothing but sheer strength. To say the Bat-Verse loses some degree of reality simply because the women are more athletic then their real life counterparts doesnt make a lot of sense when the Bat-Verse itself is far from realistic.

 @SC said:

" If we look at your given answer for example. Then you have specifically chosen comic fans? Why is that? Why make that assumption? How do you know that OP didn't mean people generally? So with your assumption you create a minor form of a straw man attack,, but only minor, but misinterpreting what the OP is trying to so, so that the answer you think is right is, and that there's isn't. Or to put it another way, let says in a blog you spoke about Captain America and how he is regarded as the most realistic superhero under a criteria you hold? Then I challenged that assertion and then changed the criteria as to suit my own answer which would assert that another character was the most realistic? The rest of your statements follow though on the understanding that we are referring to comic fans who know and read comics? We I disagree is the case,after all there are more people in the world that don't read comics than though, and more who are aware of a few of these characters than those that read as well. Then all this isn't so much an argument, its more of an assertion of opinion, which is cool, except your earlier critical arguments can also be applied back at yourself correct? With your chosen character? "

 Comicfans were mentioned in the OP. Further more aren't they more reliable to give an answer based on actual knowledge of the character(s) and not just blurt out the most famous character they know? Again I direct you to the OP and the statement, "Batman is widely considered the most realistic of ALL the superheros." So if we just asked random people off the street, how many of them are answering from only having seen the movies (or drawing from memory) There's only a handful of characters who have made their way to the big screen so wouldn't you say that slants their opinion? I also didnt say anything about "right or wrong" but that I disagree. I never said it was fact or that anyone was wrong. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But since the OP mentions "Comic Fans" explicitly, and the fact that we are on a Comicbook website makes it fairly easy to assume we're talking about comicfans. My pick of Captain America could very well be wrong, never said otherwise. You asked who I believe people would pick and thats who I went with. You're also merging two separate points/arguments into one. The first is whether or not Batman is the most realistic hero in the eyes of the fans (I say fans because thats what the OP states), and the second, is whether or not the women being more athletic then their real World counterparts diminishes the realism of the Bat-Verse. The first (as I stated early) isn't important to my argument nor is it something that is a "right or wrong" situation, but a difference in opinion. However, in regards to the Bat-Verse losing realism because the women are so gifted, I feel I've already proven why this is inaccurate in several posts. What realism is lost because of their abilities? What do they do that diminishes the realism established in the Bat-Verse? If Batman's the measuring stick then these ladies fall perfectly into place.


 " Just so I get this straight, you think more people, think that the people around them think of Captain America as the most realistic superhero? That one, or you think that more people think that Captain America is more realistic than Batman?  "

I believe if we took a poll of comicfans (again, stated in the OP) the majority would say Cap is more realistic then Batman. But thats only to suit the question you asked. My personal opinion is there's no such thing as the most "realistic superhero."

 @SC said:

"
Then for the second point, I am not sure that anyone is trying to define Batman's realism. That could be another entire blog subject. Then its not so much about, ironically the reality of Batman, but about the perception of Batman. I am not a Batman fan, but I read like 3 to 4 of his books a month, plus he usually turns up in my favorite DC books time to time, and I consider him in his thirties, I don't think he has actually mastered all those styles, I recognize that as a writing trope employed by writers and that what they are essentially trying to say badly is that Batman is very skilled and very good at martial arts. I bet to go along with the 1000 people perception, understanding thing, if you asked people (non fans) whether, if Batman was a master of Sumo or a really skilled and awesome fighter they would probably assert the later. Not that those two options would be mutually exclusive and if Batman did indeed master every typing of fighting, he would be a Yokozuna probably... lol but do they associate that with Batman or do they just view him as being super awesome at fighting?

 By defining/declaring that the women and their abilities diminish the reality of the Bat-Verse I'd say thats exactly what they're doing. What else could it be? If Batman's realism isnt defined then how can said realism be diminished? I direct you to the OP once more

"  Does the Bat-universe lose some degree of reality with so many females?   The answer is yes"

 Its pretty basic no? All this talk about perception and what not is somewhat moot in my opinion. This is the meat of it right here. This is the main point that I'm debating against. As for the martial arts, we dont need to poll fans for this answer. Its written in several issues, several bio's, several Batman character profiles. Its as common as Superman's superstrength. There's no writer interpretation or, they were trying to say this or that. Its like his own superpower and something thats been established over countless years and writers. They dont say or imply he's "Good/Skilled" at martial arts, its as established as the Bat-Cave, the Utility Belt, and Batmobile. Batman is a master of every single form of Martial Arts combat.

 @SC said:

" I just get the sense that your applying the wrong context intended, not that its a vlaid context, but you seem to know Batman well, if you were required to make the character sound relatable and realistic could you in the same fashion as you just did to discredit that notion? I have no doubts that you couldn't, we should be able to, it just depends on what we are focusing on. "

Not sure how I'm applying the wrong context. There's an established realism in the Bat-Verse, and the women of this Universe are well defined within said realism. But when compared to "real life" of course they dont measure up. But neither does Batman. The OP starts off saying that the women diminish the Bat-Verse realism but then doesn't compare them to that Comicbook Universe. Instead it goes on to compare them to real life women, almost implying by omission  that Batman already stacks up to real life.

 
@SC said:

" Then the main point I get from the thread, is not that they don't match up with some tight ratio with Batman's realism to a realistic Batman done in real life as in Gotham females realism, to those same characters done in real life, and so if you don't find Batman realistic then its pointless to make an example of the female characters. Batman's realism is not the focus, its relativity. We know what Batman is intended as right? Do you agree or disagree there? Of course therefore the female characters would as well, but the topics covered in this blog aren't deconstructing Batman's realism, its the relativity with regards to the intent behind all these characters concerned realism. Quite different from the oversimplified notion of pointing out that the women of Gotham aren't realistic compared to real life. I am not sure thats the point here at all? I mean, thats a one line blog? Made redundant by its own oversimplification lol"

 Then whats the point you take from the thread? It actually states quite clearly in the OP what the comparison is no? I'm the one deconstructing Batman's realism to show that the female characters within the Bat-Verse fit within said realism. The topics covered are deconstructing the women of the Bat-Verses realism when compared to real life women. I dont feel I've missed that point at all. I've simplified it because its actually a pretty simple topic. Well thought out, but I mean its not like its something complicated. The last sentence says,


"Women fall behind men in almost every athletic sense and while their minds may be strong, their muscles aren’t.   I will look at a few areas of athleticism to show this"

Then goes on to compare real life women against real life men and how that comparison validates the stance of the women in the Bat-Verse diminishing its realism. When really, shouldn't it have compared the Bat-Verse women to the Bat-Verse realism itself? The Bat-Verse is "exaggerated reality" at best. And within this framework the Bat-Females exaggerted abilities fit quite necessary. I'm interested to hear what you think the point is exactly if this is not it.

 @SC said:

" Intent is subjective, nothing needs to be upset to be improved upon. Different writers approach Batman and many other hero characters the same way. Its not that some are upset by the status quo set by other writers, some writers are just better at injecting more realism, more technical accuracy more of anything into some characters more than others. This thread points out general ways one area can be improved and the reason why a discrepancy exists. I could do a similar thread about how some writers and artists could make a character like Fat Cobra act and fight as if he was Iron Fist. Now if they made him fight extremely (or relatively) realistically like Iron Fist to convey authentic mastery of a martial arts... thats cool, one could argue that other aspects of Iron Fist like the hearts of Dragons and punching out helicarriers isn't realistic... but thats not the specific context intended. So that angle to show that since Iron Fist isn't realistic so Fat Cobra doesn't need to be either when the point I would be making here, is that Fat Cobra's physique would mean and specify differences in fighting style to Danny and ways this could be conveyed though intent? (like how the writers and artists of Iron Fist were aiming for a certain type of accuracy with their depiction of Iron Fist to ground and make the character more realistic but only in certain contexts, obviously. "

I dont disagree with this, but I'm not exactly sure what it has to do with our current conversation ;P

 @SC said:

" Galactus wasn't, isn't intended to be a realistic, grounded character, we could see next week, it won't stop writers like Hickman approaching him and writing him in ways that both appeal to the original understanding of the character but updating and modernizing the character now that science has evolved and developed and most writers knowledge in more fields surpasses that of their predecessors (I'll be careful not to intend that too generally, I am sure many older writers could kick the knowledge of some of the newer writers...) and so should Hickman be chastised for his approach in writing? Should this blog? The blog covers itself pretty well, emphasis on key words such as degree of reality rather than implication that reality is a switch and Batman falls on the off position. A lot of the points it covers are already dealt with and covered in certain comics already, I don't know about Bat women and gender specifically, but it pops up elsewhere and eventually many of the things covered here will be addressed in comics, because of again, realism and relativity. Accuracy and relativity. Intent opposed to execution. This is comics, intent doesn't always find itself executed well. You demonstrate this with your view on Batman, I am no different. Not absolutely, subjectively. I am this with most characters lol "

 I think you may have the wrong idea on my position. I'm not saying Batman isnt suppose to be more realistic when compared to characters with actual superpowers. Thats not my point at all. I'm not arguing the difference in writing styles and character depiction. But being more realistic then say, Superman, doesn't mean Real Life realistic. Like I said earliery, the characters in the Bat-Verse are tailored around said Universes established realm of reality. Batman may fight World Breakers here and there but the meat and potatoes of his rogues fit within an exaggerated sense of reality. This includes the females and their abilities. I'll go ahead and break down each category previously set up.

 "Running – Women have come a long way in terms of endurance running, so much so that at one point if there yearly gains held up they would be running marathons faster than men by the around the year 2050.   Women’s sprinting is also not lagging too far behind.   The fastest 100 m female runner is only a second or so behind most men.   Still, even with that considered I am not sure if most females could keep up with most men in this regard.   When I was playing high school soccer, the girls team trained hard in running, but when we would train with the boys team they would consistently make us look slow.   It is unrealistic to think that any of the Bat-family would train exclusively in any one area, and so the Bat-women would likely lag behind in this respect.   But running isn’t all that important, I assume that most of the characters are fast and can outrun the common thugs or even most non-powered supervillains. "
 

In the first couple sentences the author admits that women are not to far behind (this is real life women by the way) the men. So in an already exaggerated reality the Bat-Women being able to run with, or outrun Batman does not diminish the reality (in my opinion). Barbra's in a wheelchair so she aint outrunning anyone and with the exception of Cass none of the characters mentioned in the OP have been depicted as fast runners. Catwoman may escape Bats from time to time but thats usually over rooftops and not an all out straightline sprint. The context of their chases also plays a role as Batman is keen to let her escape depending on the situation. Otherwise he usually runs her down.

  "Climbing – I used to climb with one of my ex-boyfriends.   He was super keen on trying it and I was game to go along with him.   Something that most people don’t know about climbing is that initially most women are better at it.   The main reason is, generally we aren’t strong enough to lift ourselves with our arms, so we automatically resort to our legs, which is how you have to climb.   Men on the other hand, are just about strong enough with arms, and so for the first few times out climbing, they will come home with sore arms, whereas women if they come home with sore anything, have sore legs.   This all goes to say that if men stick with it and learn the proper technique, they become much stronger climbers.   Of any group of heroes, climbing is probably most important to the Bat-family.   They might not use it all the time, but they definitely use it a lot.   It isn’t always the stairs or elevator that they use to get to the top of buildings.   Still this is a relative non-factor and an area in which the women would be just as effective.      

Most if not all of the Bat-Girls use grappling guns (same with Batman). I dont recall ever seeing any of the Bat-Verse ladies out-climbing Batman (not saying its never happened) and if they have I bet it had little to nothing to do with strength and everything to do with their acrobatic prowess. And I doubt any of them have been depicted as out-climbing the men of the Bat-Family considering their own outstanding acrobatic prowess.

 Acrobatics/Gymnastics – This is one facet in which the women might be able to outmatch the men is some respects, though maybe not in the most important ones.   Women are generally more flexible than men, and so doing acrobatic things like swinging from a rope or breaking a fall might be easier, but any pure acrobatic or gymnastic movement requiring strength would still be unmatchable by the women. 

This is an area of expertise for a couple of the women in the Bat-Verse and something most comicbook females excel. Exaggerated reality. Gymnastics use to be considered a somewhat feminine area (for lack of a better term) and as such early comcicbook writers attributed this ability to several characters. Its an easy ability to play up for a character slated as human with no superpowers. So characters like Cass, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, and Barbara (when she could walk), are all established acrobats. But none of them can hold a candle to Dick Grayson, and Tim Drake is not far behind. Batman is depicted as more of a Swiss Army knife of abilities so a few female characters execute their acrobatic moves with more elegantly drawn panels. But their never shown out performing the men with powerful acrobatic moves.


 "Fighting -   This is the real area where women would be completely outmatched.   Does everyone remember in the Hush storyline when Batman was fighting ?   A not as powerful tries to punch Batman, and Bruce is fast enough to get a few blocks in with his forearms, before commenting that if he does it again they will probably get broken.   Batman is at the height of human conditioning, and his forearms can take a lot of damage."

In comics this statement is very true. But when placed under the same real life microscope as the females it does not. In MMA (mixed martial arts) fighters who are at the peak of human conditioning (nothing near superhuman but as finely tuned as a fighter could get) they fighter weaker fighters all the time and are still subject to broken or shattered bones regardless of conditioning. Also, not to nit pick, but I believe the actual instance that takes place in Hush is when Batman is belting away on Superman with a Kryptonite Ring and comments how if he hits him again he'll break his hand. But I understand the point being made. Lady Shiva blocking a kick, punch, strike, from an accomplished male fighter is realistically more at risk of breaking something then Batman should be. However, within the realm of the established Bat-Verse, her extensive martial arts training is the tool used to describe why she's able to do what she does. So really, if Batman can drop bombs on Sups without breaking his hand, then Shiva blocking strikes with her forearms doesn't seem out of place or diminishing Bat-Verse reality. 

   "Women on the other hand would never be able to get as much muscle on their forearms, and the amount of damage they could use in blocking would be far less.   Blocking is a fairly important skill in fighting, and so the women would be at a loss here as well.   I don’t think men have faster reaction times, but the amount of blocking which is possible would be much lower for women.   Another important aspect of fighting is power.   Have you ever watched any sport played by both men and women?   The women’s game seems to be slower with less action.   This essentially comes down to power.   With fewer and weaker muscles we have less to fire when we have to explode onto something.   This includes punches, kicks and so on.   Technique will only get you so far to overcome this as well.   Imagine Huntress fighting Mike Tyson.   She could use all kinds of more advanced moves to hit him, but he will just simply not feel the damage.   His body is trained to take it and not be bothered by it.   A few blocks by would leave her arms bruised and practically useless. "

Blocking is an important skill in fighting, as such, knowing "How to Block" is equally important. I also think its important to mention or establish who's blocking what from whom. Writers dont have Shiva blocking punches from characters so far our of her durability range that fans cry foul. For example, when she briefly fought Supergirl (a character with Superhuman Strength), she didn't attempt to block her, instead she simply dodged her. Which is what most of the Bat-Verse ladies are shown to do, dodge more then block. Evade as opposed to using their forearms to absorb punishment. And when they do, its limited and usually (unless its PIS/CIS) to characters within their durability range. All comicbook fights have context/underlining plot. What I mean by that is, take your Huntress/Mike Tyson scenario. The writers know that realistically a man of Tyson's strength would only need to land one shot on Huntress to take her out. So they naturally use any number of comicbook loopholes to get the end result they want (Huntress winning). They wouldnt have her matching strength with him but instead he'd underestimate her, throw a lady punch and get nerve strike(d) in the neck or something. Or she'd use her acrobatic advantage, flip over him and before he reacts kick the back of his knee out. Does it seem realistic in a real World sense? Course not. But in the Bat-Verse its totally realistic. His body is trained to absorb punishment in the form of boxing/punches. Not nerve strikes and soft body targets. One eye gouge and he's down, one groin kick and he's down.


 "Theoretically anyone can train themselves as long as they have the willpower, but there are still limits.   Canada’s military counterterrorism unit, as close to being superheroes as anyone in the world I suppose (I meant this about counter terrorism units and not Canadians :P) allows women to apply to join.   Only one time has a women passed selection training (similar to Navy Seal Hell Week) but she wasn’t picked up because she wouldn’t have been able to fireman carry any of her colleagues (which I would say is a valid reason).   She is a triathlete and thus in all around great shape but still was not up to standard.   This is maybe the sad truth of the women is the Bat comics, in reality they might try really hard but would often come up short.   Coming up short in the comic book world isn’t good either, it makes you either a damsel in distress or that your life is constantly in danger.    Whats the point?  Maybe none it is the realm of fantasy after all.  Still to see the Bat-women using their heads more than their hands would be a lot more realistic." 

Not being able to perform the fireman's carry is a physical example. It says nothing about her speed, technique, fighting prowess, etc. The Bat-Women are never depicted as being physically superior then the men. The are most often depicted as acrobatic hand to hand fighters who are most definitely shown to be greater then their real life counterparts, but still contained within the established man/woman realism of the Bat-Verse. Batman and his male counterparts of that reality have set the realistic Bat-Verse bar so high that what these women do falls well under anything that would diminish said realism.

So basically, I understand what you're saying about the "Intent of Batman is to be somewhat realistic." I'm not debating that. I'm debating whether or not the achievements of the female characters within the Bat-Verse diminish its realism.
 

(LMAO niiiioce add-lib)
Moderator

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.