Cassandra cain respect thread

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#1 Edited by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
Speed  

In the upper scan where she punches the shooter the bullet has not passed the half way mark (you can see it as a cyclinder shape object moving nearing the man with glasses's head from the back. In the lower scan it finally passes the guy with glasses. it still has not reached her starting position. She is moving faster than the bullet or she wouldn't be able to cross the distance faster than the damn bullet did.   
 
This follows the first scans posted:  

  She takes out ALL those guys in the second scan.  
Proof:  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
All those guys, wow.  
 
 
 
Watch the beer bottle. its at the guys side (thigh) when he drops it, she KOs all 6 men before it reaches the ground.   
 
Dodges bullets while facing AWAY from them. The bullet is less than a feet away before she dodged it.  
 
   

 
Dodges bullets fired at her point blank (less than 4 feet).  
 

  
  
 
 Dodges bullets in mid air from her dad. This is after she takes a shot to the back. Moves in quickly and knocks her father out 
  
 
 Here she dodges bullets from multiple targets after they were shot 
 
 
 
Clears out a roof with 20 of so armed agents and grabs a fire hose and wraps it around her body within seconds. 
 
  
Avoids rapid gun fire from mutliple opponents, makes them shot themselves  
 
  
 
Amazing combat speed, KOing them disarming multiple opponents instantly.   
 
 
 
 
Disarms armed thugs with batarangs then clears them out moving at incredible speed. next she dodges bullets fired from across the room, closes the distance quickly and KOs the man. Robin in stunned. 
 
 
 
Takes out thugs who killed a man she helped escape from the government. Only stops at the last man to ask him what the man's last words were 
 
 
 
 Some more speed feats, taking out all those guys.     

   
  
   Taking out some army guys                      
 


  
Dodges some bullets from a shooter next takes out a robot with guns (some more mid-air bullet dodging).   
 
 Taking out multiple guys in mid air. Catches one trying to run away.   

 
  

Taking out opponents who were about to kill a man.  
 

 
 Nice speed feat takes the cyclinder and throws them back! Robin in stunned (again!)  

Thanks to Vuviper for this!

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Smashes arrows with her hands 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Takes out guys in mid air, Conner is stunned.  
  

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Takes out some special ops men very quickly (said to be under 3 seconds in a later scan).  Dodges bullets again. 
  


 
Some nice bullet dodging again.  



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Some nice MID AIR bullet dodging. 

Agility  -see skill

 
 

 

Strength (basically superhuman blows etc). 

 
    
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
                

 
Kicks through a wall, unknown how many blows it would take. 
  
Punches through a 3 inch thick quartz and takes out the guard on the otherside 
 
With the strength to crush a normal human's skull she takes out a metahuman.    

 
 These aren't in order and i'm missing one but anyway, takes out a bullet proof man with punches (and a few kicks). After the first punch he noted it hurt him. Bullets don't hurt this guy. 
 

 
One of my favourite scans. Her first encounter with a superhuman. She holds back her first punch but after seeing  he doesn't get hurt she gets confused. batman steps in and tries to direct the thug away but is defeated. Later he chases her after beating batman and she takes him down good ole fashion way.   
 
While training kicks a punching bag tied by thick ass chains (huge chains) across a gym -breaks all the chains. 

Skill   

 
 
  
 
 Casual training with her, notices spoiler watching her.  

 

 Learns some secret techniques just by dodging hits from shadow thief. 
 
At the age of 7 kills a man by seeming ripping out his throat.   
Stops a man's heart with a punch to show him what it feels to be..dead?  
 

 
 
  
1: While training with her move prediction back she avoid ALL of batman's moves (note that batman is always going all out when training with her).. 
2: Remarks about her speed being superhuman. 
3. Talk about her move prediction skill.  
  

 
Due to training she can withstand immense trauma without relenting. Shot 4 times and still manages to close the distance to finish the shooter. Did this to protect a man behind her.  
 
         
Due to training she is able to KO lady shiva with a broken arm. Causes her pain but Shiva is down 
 
 
 
 
 
 Don't know what to make of this. Shot in the head trying to protect a woman! While is KOed the man shots the woman again. Cass wakes up pages later and still manages to land serious blows on a bullet proof guy. wow... 
  
 
 
           Batman talks about her skills... 
 
.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Digs a bullet from a cybernatically enhanced shooter out of her back with her bare hands and no sedatives!! 
  Robin remarks on exit wounds made by her father, she dismisses it as just training (note was a child she was shot at and beaten if she displayed any discomfort.).  
  

Some skill with nerve strikes, makes a man's trigger finger unable to function for 6 months, casually knows out Oracle with a tap to the chest. 
 
 
 
 

 
 Some training, next uses spoiler as a...well spoiler wanted to be trained. Cassandra utterly pawned her while looking bored.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Infiltration in the Wayne Manor, walks up to a woman without her knowing.   
 
 
 
 Nightwing knows he can't touch her so he doesn't have to hold back or worry about hitting her due to her move prediction. This was to simulate the framed bruce wayne murder. 
 
Proof that Tim Drake only tagged before because they were faking their battle in front of Penguin's men. Next proves she can take a bullet without flinching due to training from her father.  
Tim Drake talks about her move prediction - she just started fighting those men and its' like she knew all they were going to do. Next owns some assassin wannabe.  Delivers a cool one liner.  
 

 
Next takes out 50 drug crazed people with nerve cluster strikes WITHIN a FEW SECONDS.  

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 David Caine talks to a linguistic professor/ psychologist about what you could do if you had body language reading.  
 
Some nice agility, moving through the batcave. Next she trains with all matters of weapons.   
 
 
Takes out two female biker gangs before they can fight walks away like its nothing 
 
Takes out a bunch of drugged crazed men while Robin is knocked out.   
 
 Taking some shurikens meant for reformed assasins, throws them back at the targets 
  
Takes a knife to the heart meant for Alpha and still manages to KO mad dog with a flying kick.  
 
 
 
 
Here tim can't even see who he is fighting. he gets a lucky shot and somehow manages to KO batgirl ( which makes no sense since she has fought through much worse)

Fights  

Her fight against deathstorke 
  
Notice in the first scan he's already taken off while she's buried under a pile of rubble and in the second she's already caught up,  then avoids his attack and runs ahead of him.   
 

 
Fight with shadow thief, learns his martial arts techniques quickly and completely owns him.  
   
 
Takes hits from Deathstroke WITH WEIGHTS and it doesn't phase her. He ackowledges he is only able to tag her due to messing with her head. She punches his head through a wall..  
 
Her fight with ravager: Learns quickly about ravagers fighting style and accounts for her ability to see the future. Manages to handle her, after Rose sees that she cannot kill Cassandra she looks at her father apologetically, batgirl uses the advantage, slams her and slits her throat giving her 10 minutes to live. 
 
Won't even mention the second fight since Batgirl was drugged with crazy inducing drugs (but still managed to hold her own against rose).  
  
Her extremely sweet fight with Lady Shiva while both are at their peak. At first Cassandra dies at the hands of shiva, though this is because she was suffering guilt and WANTED to die. However lady Shiva brings her back to life. Cassandra goes all out, gets the chance to kill Shiva but decides against it. 
 
 

Proof that Cassandra wanted to die due to blood guilt the first time around.    
 
 
Her fight with batman, batman can't get a hit. Cass gets one and lands Bruce on the ground. The fight after this doesn't count since they were both drugged up.  
 
 Her second fight with shiva. I don't think its in order though. SO she beats Shiva a second time. 

Special thanks to casacadeking and Gambler for some of these wonderful scans!! 

#2 Posted by sputnik (210 posts) - - Show Bio

dude, she's cassandra cain. she is awesome!

#3 Posted by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's pretty obvious that the "faster than a bullet" nature of many of these is artistic license. She's awesome, the art is awesome, but she's not superhuman.

#4 Posted by superojsimpson (784 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg: which makes her more awesome!! to think that people need powers just to do what she did. beat that!!
#5 Posted by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@superojsimpson said:
@fodigg: which makes her more awesome!! to think that people need powers just to do what she did. beat that!!
Well, my point was that when you're told someone isn't superhuman and then show them doing something obviously superhuman you have a few choices: 
  • hold to "not superhuman" and write it off as artistic license
  • say she is superhuman despite what writers/characters say
  • adjust your expectations for "baseline humans" in comics
I come down in favor of the first, while you seem to be coming down in favor of the third.
#6 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

In Cass' original series she was depicted as having reflexes so acute that dodging bullets after they had been fired was a give in. It wasn't artistic license, its actually something she was set up to do regardless of not having actual superhuman abilities. Now having said that I dont believe she can outrun a bullet. But her ability to read people allows her an almost superhuman level of anticipation which means she was already running towards the shooter (first series of scans) before the bullet was fired. Add that to her already impressive foot speed and a level of suspension of disbelief, and there you go. Its comics, someone doesn't need super-powers to do superhuman things.

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#7 Posted by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
In Cass' original series she was depicted as having reflexes so acute that dodging bullets after they had been fired was a give in. It wasn't artistic license, its actually something she was set up to do regardless of not having actual superhuman abilities. Now having said that I dont believe she can outrun a bullet. But her ability to read people allows her an almost superhuman level of anticipation which means she was already running towards the shooter (first series of scans) before the bullet was fired. Add that to her already impressive foot speed and a level of suspension of disbelief, and there you go. Its comics, someone doesn't need super-powers to do superhuman things.
I get that, but even in your post you're saying she's anticipating the shot and dodging, not watching the bullet come out of the gun, plotting the trajectory, and dodging it. She's already moving where she needs to go before the gun is fired. 
 
Granted, that's still ridiculous and would require some sort of speed on her part but it's a distinction that moves it from super-human to "comic book possible" IMO.
#8 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg said:
I get that, but even in your post you're saying she's anticipating the shot and dodging, not watching the bullet come out of the gun, plotting the trajectory, and dodging it.
Sorry, let me try again I dont think I explained myself properly. I'm only referring to the first set of scans (the very first two side by side) where the bullet is fired and we see Cass hitting the gunmen while the bullet is still in the air. She was not the intended target, the fat man with the glasses was and there for she didn't dodge anything. In my post I said I dont believe she can "Outrun" a bullet which is what the first series of scans were set up to look like. Now, strictly talking about dodging bullets like the other numerous scans show, thats something she was trained to do. Its not a superhuman ability (although it really is), but is explained away as part of her innovative and unorthodox training (which in itself is unbelievable but we can get into that later if need be). This fact is establish all throughout her entire series. Alot of street level characters perform the anticipation bullet dodge (Batman does it all the time) but Cass' bullet dodges were purposely illustrated to visual showcase her dodging them after they were fired. Alot of comicfans get hung up on her performing superhuman feats without having superhuman powers, but again, this was an underlining theme in her own book. Onlookers mistakenly believing she had meta-human abilities simply because of how fast she moved before in-depth scientific research proved she was only human. See what I'm saying? Even in her own book there was the whole, "Well she performs Meta-Human level feats, how can she only be human?"
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#9 Posted by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
@fodigg said:
I get that, but even in your post you're saying she's anticipating the shot and dodging, not watching the bullet come out of the gun, plotting the trajectory, and dodging it.
Sorry, let me try again I dont think I explained myself properly. I'm only referring to the first set of scans (the very first two side by side) where the bullet is fired and we see Cass hitting the gunmen while the bullet is still in the air. She was not the intended target, the fat man with the glasses was and there for she didn't dodge anything. In my post I said I dont believe she can "Outrun" a bullet which is what the first series of scans were set up to look like. Now, strictly talking about dodging bullets like the other numerous scans show, thats something she was trained to do. Its not a superhuman ability (although it really is), but is explained away as part of her innovative and unorthodox training (which in itself is unbelievable but we can get into that later if need be). This fact is establish all throughout her entire series. Alot of street level characters perform the anticipation bullet dodge (Batman does it all the time) but Cass' bullet dodges were purposely illustrated to visual showcase her dodging them after they were fired. Alot of comicfans get hung up on her performing superhuman feats without having superhuman powers, but again, this was an underlining theme in her own book. Onlookers mistakenly believing she had meta-human abilities simply because of how fast she moved before in-depth scientific research proved she was only human. See what I'm saying? Even in her own book there was the whole, "Well she performs Meta-Human level feats, how can she only be human?"
I see what you're saying and I actually think her abilities as you've explained them are acceptable--or at least, as acceptable as many of the things Bruce can do--as long as she's in motion before the shot is fired, even if she's in the line-of-fire when the shot is fired. You refer to this distinction as "outrunning" vs "dodging." That's all fine in my book. 
 
My original points about artistic license were against her being able to "outrun" a bullet, which I thought the OP showed a scan of her doing. However, you've pointed out that this is not the case.
#10 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
@fodigg said:
I get that, but even in your post you're saying she's anticipating the shot and dodging, not watching the bullet come out of the gun, plotting the trajectory, and dodging it.
Sorry, let me try again I dont think I explained myself properly. I'm only referring to the first set of scans (the very first two side by side) where the bullet is fired and we see Cass hitting the gunmen while the bullet is still in the air. She was not the intended target, the fat man with the glasses was and there for she didn't dodge anything. In my post I said I dont believe she can "Outrun" a bullet which is what the first series of scans were set up to look like. Now, strictly talking about dodging bullets like the other numerous scans show, thats something she was trained to do. Its not a superhuman ability (although it really is), but is explained away as part of her innovative and unorthodox training (which in itself is unbelievable but we can get into that later if need be). This fact is establish all throughout her entire series. Alot of street level characters perform the anticipation bullet dodge (Batman does it all the time) but Cass' bullet dodges were purposely illustrated to visual showcase her dodging them after they were fired. Alot of comicfans get hung up on her performing superhuman feats without having superhuman powers, but again, this was an underlining theme in her own book. Onlookers mistakenly believing she had meta-human abilities simply because of how fast she moved before in-depth scientific research proved she was only human. See what I'm saying? Even in her own book there was the whole, "Well she performs Meta-Human level feats, how can she only be human?"
whether or not she is dodging it she moved faster than it which was the point.  
 Also people have this type of problem with Karate Kid too. 
#11 Posted by Mercy_ (92257 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a feat so much as an on-panel statement.

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#12 Edited by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:

@Gambler said:

@fodigg said:

I get that, but even in your post you're saying she's anticipating the shot and dodging, not watching the bullet come out of the gun, plotting the trajectory, and dodging it.

Sorry, let me try again I dont think I explained myself properly. I'm only referring to the first set of scans (the very first two side by side) where the bullet is fired and we see Cass hitting the gunmen while the bullet is still in the air. She was not the intended target, the fat man with the glasses was and there for she didn't dodge anything. In my post I said I dont believe she can "Outrun" a bullet which is what the first series of scans were set up to look like. Now, strictly talking about dodging bullets like the other numerous scans show, thats something she was trained to do. Its not a superhuman ability (although it really is), but is explained away as part of her innovative and unorthodox training (which in itself is unbelievable but we can get into that later if need be). This fact is establish all throughout her entire series. Alot of street level characters perform the anticipation bullet dodge (Batman does it all the time) but Cass' bullet dodges were purposely illustrated to visual showcase her dodging them after they were fired. Alot of comicfans get hung up on her performing superhuman feats without having superhuman powers, but again, this was an underlining theme in her own book. Onlookers mistakenly believing she had meta-human abilities simply because of how fast she moved before in-depth scientific research proved she was only human. See what I'm saying? Even in her own book there was the whole, "Well she performs Meta-Human level feats, how can she only be human?"
whether or not she is dodging it she moved faster than it which was the point.   Also people have this type of problem with Karate Kid too. 
There are distinctions here that I am really unclear on. What does it mean to be "faster than a bullet" in this context? Is she racing a bullet or just jumping out of the way? At what range? When does she start to move? 
  • superman/flash: can literally run up to a bullet from behind and catch it
  • captain america: people shoot at him, he "sees faster" and dodges them at seemingly point-blank range
  • cassandra cain (as I understood it): sees the angle of the gun and starts dodging, can get out of the way at medium range
  • batman: stays out of the line of fire
  • ultimate spider-man: jumps in front of the bullet, bleeds to death
 
 Hypothetical scenario: Cass is hanging out at the local Starbucks and is reading (trying to read) a CD case. Lex Luthor walks through the front door, pulls out a handgun, points it at her from medium range, and shoots her. At some point in this process of events, Cass notices what is happening and reacts. When is it too late for her to save herself? 
  1. She notices on the drive-thru security camera that Lex is walking toward the building
  2. She notices Lex as he walks up to the door
  3. She notices Lex as he opens the door
  4. She notices Lex once he's inside the Starbucks
  5. She notices Lex as he reaches for his gun
  6. She notices Lex as he's drawing his gun
  7. She notices Lex as he has the gun drawn and is aiming
  8. She notices Lex as he has it leveled directly at her
  9. She notices Lex as he is pulling the trigger
  10. She notices Lex as the bullet is in flight toward her from medium range
  11. She notices Lex as the bullet is just shy of the moment of impact
  12. She notices Lex as he's ordering a Latte while she bleeds to death on the floor
My understanding was that Cass can perform the superhuman feat of dodging bullets as long as she can react to the assailant some time between 1 and 8, but if she hasn't started to react and put herself in motion by 9, then she's screwed. I don't care if she's moving so fast during 10 (assuming that she's already in motion) that she's essentially leaving a direct line-of-fire before the bullet gets to her (it's comics), but if she's able to still dodge bullets--from a standstill--if she's only starting to react from points 9 to 11, then I am one of those persons who has a problem with her not being officially recognized as a meta-human. 
 
And hey, I don't care if she's a meta-human or not. That's fine. Just chalk it up to "learned crazy Iron Fist-style mojo from Lady Shiva/League of Assassins" and you're good to go. I would just want that to be recognized in the comics by characters other than the regular Joe cops pictured in  @The Dark Huntress:'s post.
#13 Edited by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg: Its said that she can predict where the bullets will go and just moves out of the way of them (in the first scan she is shown literally crossing the distance nearly twice as fast as the bullet which is beyond what even spider man 616 can do) usually. SO yes a bullet timer, fast enough to dodge them AFTER they have been fired. Some of those show the bullets within 1 feet of her before she finally dodges them.  
I've uploaded lots more scans, feel free to educate yourself.  
Batgirl is soo overrated here. she's make DS look bad in h2h 
As for your question it is too late as 12. :P 
At number 11 she could still evade it. 
 
Dodges bullets fired at her point blank and dodges ALL of them. Based on what is said about her ability it is said she predicts what her opponent will do ( so i doubt he would not notice lex as she noticed a sniper from a roof away trying to kill her). Based on what is shown it is clear she can actually move faster than them.  
Hmm actually i'm a little unsure. she definitely could make it at number 9 though...
#14 Edited by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:

@fodigg: Its said that she can predict where the bullets will go and just moves out of the way of them (in the first scan she is shown literally crossing the distance nearly twice as fast as the bullet which is beyond what even spider man 616 can do)  

I'm looking at this scan and I cannot tell what you're saying. Is this the same event described as the following?
@Gambler said:

the first set of scans (the very first two side by side) where the bullet is fired and we see Cass hitting the gunmen while the bullet is still in the air. She was not the intended target, the fat man with the glasses was and there for she didn't dodge anything.

What Gambler says makes sense to me. I see the guy fire the gun, then I see her punching him with the bullet not having gone very far past her yet, which means she must have punched him very shortly after he fired that gun. We have no context of where she is when he's pulling the trigger. She may have been right about to punch him already. She may have been standing still across the room without having moved yet. This is the problem. We are looking at snapshots that show sections of an event with ambiguous time between events. I don't think she would've been standing there waiting for him to pull the trigger and then suddenly she's punching him. From that scene I get that she's very fast but not necessarily that she's faster than a bullet.
 
@difficlus said:

SO yes a bullet timer, fast enough to dodge them AFTER they have been fired. Some of those show the bullets within 1 feet of her before she finally dodges them.  
I've uploaded lots more scans, feel free to educate yourself.  
Batgirl is soo overrated here. she's make DS look bad in h2h   

 Again, so the bullet is close. Is she already moving? That's ambiguous. I get it. She's fast. But I haven't seen a scan that said to me she can dodge a bullet after it's been fired from a standstill. 
 
@difficlus said:

As for your question it is too late as 12. :P 
At number 11 she could still evade it. 
 Dodges bullets fired at her point blank and dodges ALL of them. Based on what is said about her ability it is said she predicts what her opponent will do ( so i doubt he would not notice lex as she noticed a sniper from a roof away trying to kill her). Based on what is shown it is clear she can actually move faster than them.  Hmm actually i'm a little unsure. she definitely could make it at number 9 though...

Yeah, I read those scans and I think she's just avoiding the aim of the gun. Nothing says she's in the line of fire when he pulls the trigger. You are assuming things not seen on the page. 
 
I'm not saying she's not impressive.
#15 Edited by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg said:


 
@difficlus said:

SO yes a bullet timer, fast enough to dodge them AFTER they have been fired. Some of those show the bullets within 1 feet of her before she finally dodges them.  
I've uploaded lots more scans, feel free to educate yourself.  
Batgirl is soo overrated here. she's make DS look bad in h2h   
 Again, so the bullet is close. Is she already moving? That's ambiguous. I get it. She's fast. But I haven't seen a scan that said to me she can dodge a bullet after it's been fired from a standstill. 
 
@difficlus said:
As for your question it is too late as 12. :P 
At number 11 she could still evade it. 
 Dodges bullets fired at her point blank and dodges ALL of them. Based on what is said about her ability it is said she predicts what her opponent will do ( so i doubt he would not notice lex as she noticed a sniper from a roof away trying to kill her). Based on what is shown it is clear she can actually move faster than them.  Hmm actually i'm a little unsure. she definitely could make it at number 9 though...
Yeah, I read those scans and I think she's just avoiding the aim of the gun. Nothing says she's in the line of fire when he pulls the trigger. You are assuming things not seen on the page.  I'm not saying she's not impressive.
*sigh*  What aim of the gun, the guy doesn't have to aim, he shoots in the same position as per the scan. He isn't waving the gun widly trying to tag her. She CAN dodge bullets get over it. 
here since you clearly have not seen all the images here: 
 
 
She's right in front of him nothing to say she didn't dodge the bullets AFTER like she usually does. What you need to see the bullet actually moving.  She moves through the individual bullets. 
 
As for your post to gambler here:   
 
 
 
We have no context of where she was? She's standing at the door. the man who fired is standing behind the man with glasses? Is it so hard to see? Its the bottom panel of the first scan you can see their starting positions. All of them! Or did you only view the second one? Btw looking at the second scan she took out another man  BEFORE she took out the shooter. amazing. 
#16 Edited by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:

Top panel she's clearly moving to her left and the bullet is in the air and centered on her forehead, then the next panel she has dodged that bullet to her right. She not only dodged a flying bullet from a standstill, but changed directions. She does it again in the third panel. Makes me wonder if she's so good, why is she dodging out of the way of one bullet directly into the path of another bullet? She is seriously just showing off.
 
You've proven your point to me. Cass is a meta-human. I'm chalking it up to crazy Iron Fist-style mojo learned from Lady Shiva or from League of Assassins.
#17 Edited by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg said:

@difficlus said:

Top panel she's clearly moving to her left and the bullet is in the air and centered on her forehead, then the next panel she has dodged that bullet to her right. She not only dodged a flying bullet from a standstill, but changed directions. She does it again in the third panel. Makes me wonder if she's so good, why is she dodging out of the way of one bullet directly into the path of another bullet? She is seriously just showing off. You've proven your point to me. Cass is a meta-human. I'm chalking it up to crazy Iron Fist-style mojo learned from Lady Shiva or from League of Assassins.
 
 
=] 
sorry if i came off as rude, i wasn't about to let you blow off scans i spent days putting together. 
Edit: you can actually see her smiling as she does so. Probably is showing off, someone was watching her...
#18 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg: Here is an even more impressive one:  
  
 
 Dodges bullets in MID AIR from her dad!! This is after she takes a shot to the back. Moves in quickly and knocks her father out 
#19 Edited by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:

@fodigg said:

@difficlus said:

Top panel she's clearly moving to her left and the bullet is in the air and centered on her forehead, then the next panel she has dodged that bullet to her right. She not only dodged a flying bullet from a standstill, but changed directions. She does it again in the third panel. Makes me wonder if she's so good, why is she dodging out of the way of one bullet directly into the path of another bullet? She is seriously just showing off. You've proven your point to me. Cass is a meta-human. I'm chalking it up to crazy Iron Fist-style mojo learned from Lady Shiva or from League of Assassins.
  =] sorry if i came off as rude, i wasn't about to let you blow off scans i spent days putting together. Edit: you can actually see her smiling as she does so. Probably is showing off, someone was watching her...
By internet forum standards you were downright grandfatherly. I hope you realize I wasn't trying to just be obstinate but rather I was looking for something very clear—an example that wasn't open to any interpretation. Honestly, many of the scans you posted were open to interpretation, I felt.
 
For example: 
 
@difficlus said:

@fodigg: Here is an even more impressive one:  

    Dodges bullets in MID AIR from her dad!! This is after she takes a shot to the back. Moves in quickly and knocks her father out 
Damn right it's impressive but this sequence is another one I would've come back and said "well yeah, but we can't necessarily tell that she's pulling a Spider-Man here; she may just have jumped in a way that she knew Cain would have a hard time tagging her." I mean, when we're discussing such a small difference in ability—fractions of a second if that—one finds room to debate these things, especially in comics.
 
But there's no arguing with this: 

@difficlus

said: 

The panels are very, very clear. Bullet on target and in flight & Cass moving in the wrong direction, then she dodges. Twice. This should be the go-to sequence for establishing her as being able to really dodge bullets. Makes me wonder, can Lady Shiva dodge bullets too? Is that what made Cain want to, well, breed with her to create his own bullet dodger? Because he figured if the mother is a freak of nature, maybe the daughter will be too?
#20 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg said:
@difficlus said:

@

For example: 
 
@difficlus said:

@fodigg: Here is an even more impressive one:  

    Dodges bullets in MID AIR from her dad!! This is after she takes a shot to the back. Moves in quickly and knocks her father out 
Damn right it's impressive but this sequence is another one I would've come back and said "well yeah, but we can't necessarily tell that she's pulling a Spider-Man here; she may just have jumped in a way that she knew Cain would have a hard time tagging her." I mean, when we're discussing such a small difference in ability—fractions of a second if that—one finds room to debate these things, especially in comics.
 
But there's no arguing with this: 

@difficlus

said: 

The panels are very, very clear. Bullet on target and in flight & Cass moving in the wrong direction, then she dodges. Twice. This should be the go-to sequence for establishing her as being able to really dodge bullets. Makes me wonder, can Lady Shiva dodge bullets too? Is that what made Cain want to, well, breed with her to create his own bullet dodger? Because he figured if the mother is a freak of nature, maybe the daughter will be too?
Well i would have said "There is no way of substantiated that, i mean you might argue that spider man does the same thing all the time too when dodging bullets right? " besides Cain said he made that video as proof she can actually dodge bullets in mid flight. I doubt there is even a way to twist up like that and not end up getting killed. Think about. Bullets don't have a straight trajectory after they leave the barrel. They differ by amounts when they actually leave the barrel (though not by much). It wouldn't have been smart on her part.  One may pang right into her spine and she's completely screwed. Not as smart as she's shown to be.   Also she has her back turned, there is no way of knowing the positioning of the fire and jumping over it UNTIL she's looking back in the barrel. Based on the scan its after she's in the air."  
 
Though if you want to argue like that i guess it's spider man level agility also. 
She was made to be the best. Better than Shiva, better than ANYONE. 
#21 Edited by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:


Well i would have said "There is no way of substantiated that, i mean you might argue that spider man does the same thing all the time too when dodging bullets right? " besides Cain said he made that video as proof she can actually dodge bullets in mid flight.   

Well there you go. It's explained in the text--what she's doing-- the same as Spidey's dodging is explained in the text. But none of that text was in the scans and it's been a while since I read through her solo title (totally going to dig through the longboxes now tho).  Again, when you're saying "isn't it obvious" all I can say is "it's comics, so no." I totally would believe that they could be trying to explain that crap away. 
 
@difficlus said:

She was made to be the best. Better than Shiva, better than ANYONE. 


Let me rephrase my question -- is this an innate skill that she was bred for as well as trained or are they claiming that anyone could be trained to do this?
#22 Edited by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg said:


@difficlus said:

She was made to be the best. Better than Shiva, better than ANYONE. 

Let me rephrase my question -- is this an innate skill that she was bred for as well as trained or are they claiming that anyone could be trained to do this?
Anyone else it was tried it died during the brutal training so she is the one benefactor of the skill.  
EDIT: No wait shiva indeed has this skill, not sure she learnt it the same way though. But lady shiva indeed has it, in fact when cass lost the ability once shiva taught it back to her. But cassandra has more consistent bullet showing that shiva though shiva is one beast thats for sure...
#23 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:
In Cass' original series she was depicted as having reflexes so acute that dodging bullets after they had been fired was a give in. It wasn't artistic license, its actually something she was set up to do regardless of not having actual superhuman abilities. Now having said that I dont believe she can outrun a bullet. But her ability to read people allows her an almost superhuman level of anticipation which means she was already running towards the shooter (first series of scans) before the bullet was fired. Add that to her already impressive foot speed and a level of suspension of disbelief, and there you go. Its comics, someone doesn't need super-powers to do superhuman things.
I love this post.
#24 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio

To add to her skill feats here she is pwning Connor Hawke.

#25 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio

Added lots more. 

#26 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

. She may have been right about to punch him already. She may have been standing still across the room without having moved yet. This is the problem. We are looking at snapshots that show sections of an event with ambiguous time between events. I don't think she would've been standing there waiting for him to pull the trigger and then suddenly she's punching him.

Sorry again, I sometimes automatically assume everyone's read the comics in question. We know she wasnt right in front of the gunman cause there are missing scans leading up to the ones in the OP in which we see her standing next to the vault and the intended target (fat dude with glasses). If you remind me I'll post those scans in the morning.

Also, I scanned one of your other responses and if I understand it correctly you were talking about Cass seeing the barrel of the gun(s) and anticipating dodging the bullets. However there is a scan showcasing a scene that is split between what is happening now (she's on a flagpole looking off in the distance while a sniper takes aim) and her training (she's standing facing away from her father who is nested in a sniper position taking aim). She dodges the sniper in both instances without having ever looked at the gunman. Visually its obvious the intention was to display the fact that she's not anticipate dodging when she dodges bullets. She's actually dodging bullets without having to anticipate barrel angels. I can post this scan as well in the morning.

Moderator
#27 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:

@fodigg said:

. She may have been right about to punch him already. She may have been standing still across the room without having moved yet. This is the problem. We are looking at snapshots that show sections of an event with ambiguous time between events. I don't think she would've been standing there waiting for him to pull the trigger and then suddenly she's punching him.

Sorry again, I sometimes automatically assume everyone's read the comics in question. We know she wasnt right in front of the gunman cause there are missing scans leading up to the ones in the OP in which we see her standing next to the vault and the intended target (fat dude with glasses). If you remind me I'll post those scans in the morning.

Also, I scanned one of your other responses and if I understand it correctly you were talking about Cass seeing the barrel of the gun(s) and anticipating dodging the bullets. However there is a scan showcasing a scene that is split between what is happening now (she's on a flagpole looking off in the distance while a sniper takes aim) and her training (she's standing facing away from her father who is nested in a sniper position taking aim). She dodges the sniper in both instances without having ever looked at the gunman. Visually its obvious the intention was to display the fact that she's not anticipate dodging when she dodges bullets. She's actually dodging bullets without having to anticipate barrel angels. I can post this scan as well in the morning.

I've already posted it Gambler. Its in her speed section, i uploaded a lot during the night plus the missing scans from the battle in question (well SOME of them). And no the bullet was meant for her, the man with the glasses is the boss of the entire operation. 
#28 Posted by entropy_aegis (14123 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:
To add to her skill feats here she is pwning Connor Hawke.
He was holding back and later Eddie Fyers oneshotted her.@difficlus said:
Added lots more. 
Wait when did Difficlus get in to the Bat stuff?
#29 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: Lol I know he was I was just posting it as a feat for her. Eddie didn't one shot her btw she was faking it so that she couldhear their motives.
#30 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

@difficlus: You're right he was, good lookin out.

Moderator
#31 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: Pretty recently, i still don't like batman or his child clan. Just cassandra.
#32 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

Some Cass training Scans:

Moderator
#33 Posted by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler: No rush on my account, @difficlus: tracked down the scan in question, which is very clear indeed.
#34 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: Sounds good,

Moderator
#35 Posted by entropy_aegis (14123 posts) - - Show Bio
@cascadeking09 said:
@entropy_aegis: Lol I know he was I was just posting it as a feat for her. Eddie didn't one shot her btw she was faking it so that she couldhear their motives.
I thought she got up very quickly from being KO'd? my bad then.@difficlus said:
@entropy_aegis: Pretty recently, i still don't like batman or his child clan. Just cassandra.
Figures,i thought you were someone else.
#36 Posted by entropy_aegis (14123 posts) - - Show Bio

Did'nt Silver Monkey has something to do with her training as well?He appeared in 2 flashbacks IIRC.

#37 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

Did'nt Silver Monkey has something to do with her training as well?He appeared in 2 flashbacks IIRC.

I have that scan somewhere.

Moderator
#38 Posted by cascadeking09 (6752 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:
@cascadeking09 said:
@entropy_aegis: Lol I know he was I was just posting it as a feat for her. Eddie didn't one shot her btw she was faking it so that she couldhear their motives.
I thought she got up very quickly from being KO'd? my bad then.
Nah, she was just waiting for them to say something as soon as Eddie showed that they weren't assassins she got up, but I do think having to do that in the first place was just stupid. She should've been able to tell when Connor told her the first time that he wasn't lying.
#39 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

Did'nt Silver Monkey has something to do with her training as well?He appeared in 2 flashbacks IIRC.

Here it is

Brief and leaves everything up for reader interpretation
Moderator
#40 Posted by entropy_aegis (14123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler:  
Ah yes,he was also standing alongside Tiger,Ra's and Merlyn when David was showing them his test subjects.So much potential,SIGH.
#41 Posted by Quintus_Knightfall (84378 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Gambler: Ah yes,he was also standing alongside Tiger,Ra's and Merlyn when David was showing them his test subjects.So much potential,SIGH.

Moderator
#42 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#43 Posted by Samimista (20581 posts) - - Show Bio

Cassandra will always be my favorite Batgirl she rocks.

#44 Posted by The Poet (8288 posts) - - Show Bio

I must admit I didn't get to see her as Batgirl (so I didn't have the honor), however from the appearences I have seen (the few as batgirl and such) I can see why she should be respected. She is an interesting character...

Moderator
#45 Posted by higher_evolutionary (2015 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus: awesome thread 
you guys did a wonderful job even better than the KMC one
#46 Posted by difficlus (10679 posts) - - Show Bio
@higher_evolutionary said:
@difficlus: awesome thread  you guys did a wonderful job even better than the KMC one
thanks
#47 Posted by Samimista (20581 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish Cassandra would get her own on-going series again.

#48 Posted by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio

@Samimista said:

I wish Cassandra would get her own on-going series again.

#49 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish Bruce Timm would do an animated film about Cassandra Cain.

I think it's interesting how Cassandra Cain was created at around the same time as Batman Beyond and I've always thought that Cassandra was the most worthy successor to Batman with Terry McGinnis being number 2. It's also interesting how she was co-created by Kelley Puckett, who worked on the comics that were based on the animated series.

#50 Posted by Samimista (20581 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

I wish Bruce Timm would do an animated film about Cassandra Cain.

I think it's interesting how Cassandra Cain was created at around the same time as Batman Beyond and I've always thought that Cassandra was the most worthy successor to Batman with Terry McGinnis being number 2. It's also interesting how she was co-created by Kelley Puckett, who worked on the comics that were based on the animated series.

Ooh I love this idea! Cassandra Cain is awesome!~

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