"pixelized said:

How she fought Julia Carpenter while Julia's daughter stood by and watched.... douche."

At least she held back on her.She could have just killed her in front of her daughter.That would have been the douche move.What she actually did to Julia was what she was told to do and what she had to do."

"Can I not be on both Ms. Marvel teams?"

"I don't think she is... she did go Binary before she 'exploded'... and since the explosion wasn't anywhere near big enough to destroy the earth, let alone damage the city below, we can safely assume that she was controlling the explosion somehow...i believe this has all been a setup under Iron Man's control... he wants to see how Moonstone reacts and wants to test her for something....Carol will come back, or maybe isn't going to disapere at all...M"

"pixelized said:

"Vance Astro said:

"pixelized said:

How she fought Julia Carpenter while Julia's daughter stood by and watched.... douche."

At least she held back on her.She could have just killed her in front of her daughter.That would have been the douche move.What she actually did to Julia was what she was told to do and what she had to do."

Having Julia's daughter out there watching her mom get beat up by this "hero" is ridiculous. Killing her would have been even more so. Again, Carol can think for herself, she can be quite inconsiderate. "

Are you kidding with this? Cops have a mind of their own but they still have to take orders and do what they were told to do.Carol and Wonder Man was Tony's 5.0.They had to go out and apprehend people who don't register.If Julia hadn't tried to smash Carol with a car...she probably wouldn't have beat her down in front of her daughter.She could have just registered and that would have never happened.They ended up forcing her to register anyone.Julia brought it on herself."

"Vance Astro said:

"pixelized said:

How she fought Julia Carpenter while Julia's daughter stood by and watched.... douche."

At least she held back on her.She could have just killed her in front of her daughter.That would have been the douche move.What she actually did to Julia was what she was told to do and what she had to do."

Having Julia's daughter out there watching her mom get beat up by this "hero" is ridiculous. Killing her would have been even more so. Again, Carol can think for herself, she can be quite inconsiderate. "

"pixelized said:

Carol could have easily walked away and told Iron Man she couldn't catch Julia and then they would have just moved on to the next. Instead... Wonder man, Rachel, and ...whomever was watching Rachel all just sat back and watched the brawl. It was too much."

How could she have walked away and lied to Tony is Wonder Man was there and could see she's a liar? Every time Carol has let someone go she was only with Shield Agents or by herself."

"Vance Astro said:

"pixelized said:

Carol could have easily walked away and told Iron Man she couldn't catch Julia and then they would have just moved on to the next. Instead... Wonder man, Rachel, and ...whomever was watching Rachel all just sat back and watched the brawl. It was too much."

How could she have walked away and lied to Tony is Wonder Man was there and could see she's a liar? Every time Carol has let someone go she was only with Shield Agents or by herself."

She could have convinced him or something, i just felt like that entire scene/situation was handled completely wrong. It's Julia Carpenter, capable of lifting 10 tons max, and shoots webbing, and i'm to believe the two of them could not have subdued her in a way that wouldn't be damaging to her daughter???"

It's a plot device Pix...it had to happen so that Civil War looked like a real tragedy.Everyone on Tony's side including him has done something aren't proud of.Karla is no better...."

"Calix said:

"pixelized said:

"Vance Astro said:

"pixelized said:

Carol could have easily walked away and told Iron Man she couldn't catch Julia and then they would have just moved on to the next. Instead... Wonder man, Rachel, and ...whomever was watching Rachel all just sat back and watched the brawl. It was too much."

How could she have walked away and lied to Tony is Wonder Man was there and could see she's a liar? Every time Carol has let someone go she was only with Shield Agents or by herself."

She could have convinced him or something, i just felt like that entire scene/situation was handled completely wrong. It's Julia Carpenter, capable of lifting 10 tons max, and shoots webbing, and i'm to believe the two of them could not have subdued her in a way that wouldn't be damaging to her daughter???"

I do agree with Danvers handling the Julia situation very wrong and while she could have called the whole thing of the times that I've seen her not enforce the SRA act was when the anti and pro sides were working in tandem for whatever disaster had just happened."

The thing is..Carol knows she was wrong and she cried about it.That's the hero coming out.She didn't want to do that.She was a victim of circumstance."

"pixelized said:

"Vance Astro said:

It's a plot device Pix...it had to happen so that Civil War looked like a real tragedy.Everyone on Tony's side including him has done something aren't proud of.Karla is no better...."

LOL Karla's a villain, or was [maybe still is] it's her nature, but this is Carol Danvers, someone who is supposed to be above and beyond average people. I just didn't like the way that situation and then how she was when those students were blown up at X-Institute, it got to the point where i just couldn't believe her anymore. "

It was during CIVIL WAR...."

Point taken. or course one musn't forget that Julia did have a hand in this. She could have prevented the whole thing by signing up alas it was one of those loose loose situations for both sides. Which is why I stuck with Tony thru this mess. SRA was a no win scenario.Did you read GtoG by the way? I would have PM'd but those are down."

"Vance Astro said:

It's a plot device Pix...it had to happen so that Civil War looked like a real tragedy.Everyone on Tony's side including him has done something aren't proud of.Karla is no better...."

LOL Karla's a villain, or was [maybe still is] it's her nature, but this is Carol Danvers, someone who is supposed to be above and beyond average people. I just didn't like the way that situation and then how she was when those students were blown up at X-Institute, it got to the point where i just couldn't believe her anymore. "

gutting Swordsman."

Karla is the leader of the Thunderbolt initiative and team shrink she was supposed to be above and beyond at the very least her cohorts and that wasn't the case either. "

May pixelized said:

"Calix said:

Point taken. or course one musn't forget that Julia did have a hand in this. She could have prevented the whole thing by signing up alas it was one of those loose loose situations for both sides. Which is why I stuck with Tony thru this mess. SRA was a no win scenario.Did you read GtoG by the way? I would have PM'd but those are down."

She didn't want to register though. Why wasn't saying "no" enough?"

That is an excuse.She would have never even been asked to go there under normal circumstances.She was doing what she was told to do.You act as if Carol did these things for the purpose of being a douche.She had to do it."

"Calix said:

"pixelized said:

"Vance Astro said:

It's a plot device Pix...it had to happen so that Civil War looked like a real tragedy.Everyone on Tony's side including him has done something aren't proud of.Karla is no better...."

LOL Karla's a villain, or was [maybe still is] it's her nature, but this is Carol Danvers, someone who is supposed to be above and beyond average people. I just didn't like the way that situation and then how she was when those students were blown up at X-Institute, it got to the point where i just couldn't believe her anymore. "

Karla is the leader of the Thunderbolt initiative and team shrink she was supposed to be above and beyond at the very least her cohorts and that wasn't the case either. "

She's responsible for Norman going back to Green Goblin and gutting Swordsman."

Calix said:

Karla is the leader of the Thunderbolt initiative and team shrink she was supposed to be above and beyond at the very least her cohorts and that wasn't the case either. "

She was leader because she told Osborn she wanted to be, not because of good morals. She was debunked by songbird, and then had her mom killed."

Osborn didn't want Songbird to be the leader..because she was the only one there who was actually "good".Songbird spoke up and asked to take Moonstone's place.

"

You didn't see Norman stab Swordsman?

She didn't pick that time..it was picked for her.Again,a plot device.

"

Moonstone wanted leadership and she got debunked by Songbird because the latter had something on Norman."

You stated that she hadn't wanted leadership of the Thunderbolts and I am showing that she did but got demoted.

You are stating that Danvers is a douche or portrayed douche behavior based on that one situation whereas Moonstone has displayed similar behavior to far worse repeatedly....

"You stated that she hadn't wanted leadership of the Thunderbolts and I am showing that she did but got demoted.You are stating that Danvers is a douche or portrayed douche behavior based on that one situation whereas Moonstone has displayed similar behavior to far worse repeatedly...."

You think Osborn could turn back into the Goblin at will before Karla started hiding his medication?"

Ohhhh Gotcha! I won't Mr. Strucker to return though ]=

"Vance Astro said:

Osborn didn't want Songbird to be the leader..because she was the only one there who was actually "good".Songbird spoke up and asked to take Moonstone's place.

"

What are we arguing, we know Karla is evil. lol

"pixelized said:

"Vance Astro said:

Osborn didn't want Songbird to be the leader..because she was the only one there who was actually "good".Songbird spoke up and asked to take Moonstone's place.

"

What are we arguing, we know Karla is evil. lol

Evil implies some sort of higher purpose or at least moderate intrigue in their plotting and scheming and Karla is neither to my recollection. she is just a bad "guy" and she even sucks at that."

and all of this debate, while entertaining, has nothing to do with the "death" of Ms. Marvel.  As of last issue, she appears to be dead.  Of course we all hope not.  I understand that Karla is now "Ms. Marvel" and taking over the title but I really hope there's something more in store for Carol.  I've always loved her since she was introduced to Marvel Comics.

why comment on something that ended nearly 2 weeks ago?

"why comment on something that ended nearly 2 weeks ago?"

you made it seem as though it was still going when that conversation was dead, so even bringing it up was beating a dead horse.

I guess it was lame attempt to steer the thread away from debates on wether Karla is "evil" or not and perhaps dredge up fresh speculation on if Carol is "dead" or not.

It's no point in speculating at this point.We will never know until someone actually confirms her DOA.

   I can't get too worked-up over it.

   From Civil War on, Carol Danvers has been depicted by the honchos at Marvel as a fame-seeking, violent gloryhound who has betrayed most of her oldest friends and - though she always seems to know he's a bastatd - followed Stark blindly, even when his policies were obviously destroying the fabric of the Marvel Universe.

   I know it's not her fault...it's Bendis and company...but still, that's the impression I now have of her. A woman who will beat a friend to within an inch of her life right in front of her daughter, support a Regestration act that amounted to near-slavery (it was regester and serve at Camp Hammond...or go to jail. Man, that's at least indentured servitude!) and helped imprison people without trials in Reed's Negative Zone prison. She's hadly had a will of her own, and only durring the last 6 months has she seemed to question her own actions. It's refreshing to see her - when faced with the same dicision Cap was forced to make (follow a system you know is wrong, or become an outlaw) - make the right choice, but it's too little too late to save the character for me.

   Norman Osborn is employing villains to hunt down heroes (just like Stark did), forcing heroes to regester their identitys and serve as soldiers in the Iniative (just like Stark did) and willing to ignore basic human rights to push his agenda through (just...like Stark), so where is the conflict of interest between the two? Carol was willing to do all that to be thought of as a Good Little Girl by the media. She seems to think that these are wrong when enforced by Norman, but the EXACT SAME LAWS were just fine when Stark was calling the shots.

   No. I hate the whiney martinet that Carol's become. I hope she comes back some day, and has the chance to be a real person once again as opposed to a willing tool for any boob in a tin suit...but the Carol Danvers I've been shown durring the last few years I won't miss at all. I mean, it's said that the cold, unempathic manner she's aquired is the result of Rogues' attack, but the Carol Danvers who stayed with the X-Men, saved Kitty Prydes life and joined the StarJammers wasn't much like that at all, so it's clearly something Bendis decided to give her to make her "deeper" (more shallow) for a modern audience.

   But...Moonstone? Really? I've seen the first issue, and it looks like it's just going to be more of the same psycho babble that we got in Thunderbolts back in the day. I don't think that we saw ANYTHING in the first Karla-Dominated issue that Kurt Busiak didn't show us 10 years ago. "I'm a bitch with mother-issue" could have been the title of the story. For goodness sakes, if THAT'S all I'm going to get from the NEW Ms. Marvel, then their's no point in reading it either.

   How about this. Just give me a Ms. Marvel who can be a heroine, without amping the Bitch Factor to 11 and ripping the knob off. The whole Civil War era Carol didn't make much sense to me, because she'd spent YEARS in space, fighting along side a band of rebils (the Star Jammers) against a tyranical empire with a charismatic dictator and an army of superheros (the Shi'ar and the Imp. Guard), and NEVER ONCE SAW THE IRONY of her new position as the enforcer of Iron Thugs New World Order.

   Good by, Carol. I'd have missed you even 5 years ago, but these days...I just cant care. Maybe we need this seperation for the bloom to return to the rose.

She doesn't have Mother issues, she killed her because she thought she was doing what was best for her mom.

And that Was just an introduction to Karla Sofen, the next issue is supposed to be something completely different.

   The problem is that that's the SAME INTRODUCTION we got to Karla 10 YEARS AGO! I remember Busiak covering all those bases back then, and as she abandond her mother after she sacrificed everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - for her to go to school, then I'd have to argue that she does indeed have Mother Issues.

   I feel like they started her off in her series with yet another tired retelling of her origins, as opposed to saying anything new. Everything I learned about her in that issue, I knew from decade-old issues of the Thunderbolts. As I know their plan is to kill Carol and replace her with another cold, snarky blond in a skimpy costume, I can safely say I wont be reading it. They should have tried harder with their first issue...as opposed to takeing the reader down memory lane. We live in an age whe a person can just do a Google Search for "Moonstone" and find out all we need about her past. I'm just saying...they could have tried harder.

"pixelized said:

"Exactly Vance. And like i said, it was one issue, letting new readers know who Karla is. "

Not just new readers but people who just don't know who Karla is.He's acting as if she's an A-List hero.I'm sure they are going to give background on all the people taking over books whether you know their origins or not."

   That bothers me a lot too. I mean...is it just me, or are we supposed to assume that the whole world thinks that Karla is Carol? I mean, it seems that any cop or reporter worth his salt can figure out that this ISN'T CAROL! And as the whole flippin' world KNOWS Karla is a criminal...well, I just think they're being lazy. But hey, to Bendis and Company it's "Character" that's important...not history or common sense.