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    Captain America

    Character » Captain America appears in 11747 issues.

    During World War II, Steve Rogers volunteered to receive the experimental Super-Soldier Serum. Enhanced to the pinnacle of human physical potential and armed with an unbreakable shield, he became Captain America. After a failed mission left him encased in ice for decades, he was found and revived by the Avengers, later joining their ranks and eventually becoming the team's leader.

    So cap isn't a superhuman...but is he enhanced or peak?

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    tg1982

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    #101  Edited By tg1982


    @novi_homines:

    @muyjingo said:

    Well I've found the answer.

    It seems Marvel redefines the term peak. It has nothing to do with evolution as some people were trying to claim, that still seems to be just boasting by the scientist.

    According to Marvel, Peak is a level below super human but still withing reach of what a human in their best condition could achieve.

    To quote:

    Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans. Enhanced human refers to superhuman abilities some distance beyond the limits of humans, such as being able to lift a small car but not a tank, and is a kind of term for "light" superhuman abilities. Then comes the term superhuman. Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities.

    That's Marvel's definition for Peak Human, which they still list Captain America as.

    Here is a legend elaborating further.

    No Caption Provided

    He's obviously done super human stuff sometimes, but that is something that happens to all comic book characters, when they get popular and writers write them as overpowered. It doesn't mean he is super human. That pretty much settles it for me unless someone can provide more than pushing their interpretation or the occasional exaggerated feat.

    The irony here is that in nearly all categories (except flight speed and water speed) Captain America is more than peak human. In strength he has on multiple occasions lifted more than 800lbs, so he would be listed as enhanced, in speed Cap can run at 60 mph, so he would be listed as enhanced, Cap's stamina is at least superhuman if not metahuman, Cap's durability would be enhanced. And Cap's reflexes would be listed as superhuman.

    So this legend (printed) in 1992 is either outdated and obsolete, or Cap is more than the peak of what a current human in the MU can do.

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    MuyJingo

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    @tg1982 said:
    The irony here is that in nearly all categories (except flight speed and water speed) Captain America is more than peak human. In strength he has on multiple occasions lifted more than 800lbs, so he would be listed as enhanced, in speed Cap can run at 60 mph, so he would be listed as enhanced, Cap's stamina is at least superhuman if not metahuman, Cap's durability would be enhanced. And Cap's reflexes would be listed as superhuman.

    Well, that's the thing, isn't? Where is the line between PIS/him being written as overpowered, and the feats being a demonstration of his capacity?

    There is another thread in this forum at the moment that krauser99 made, showing feats far beyond the level cap should be capable of, and asking if he can become more powerful via his will. Let's say Cap is Enhanced Human all round, he still shouldn't be able to hold up a skyscraper or take down the hulk, right?

    Batman has been showing as being able to injure Darkseid, catch bullets, Punch through steel doors...things he should not be capable of. Generally you have to dismiss those feats as PIS or make some sort of explanation for them.

    So, what do you do with cap? If he is shown as running at 60mph twice in the last 10 years, why is that an example of his capabilities and not PIS?

    So this legend (printed) in 1992 is either outdated and obsolete, or Cap is more than the peak of what a current human in the MU can do.

    If there is a more up to date legend I'd love to see it, that's the best I've been able to find. Don't you think there is also the possibility of him being written as overpowered?

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    tg1982

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    #103  Edited By tg1982

    @muyjingo said:

    Well, that's the thing, isn't? Where is the line between PIS/him being written as overpowered, and the feats being a demonstration of his capacity?

    Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I think the line exists as such... In reference to a single (not between two or more characters) character ferat, if a character displays or conducts a feat that was previously never done before and since the first display has done it consistently since. Like for example Captain America dodging bullets after they've been fired, or lifting more than what he has previously been seen or noted as lifting, etc, etc, then it becomes canon. As for multiple characters (like Cap vs. Hulk and such) If it ignores the abilities or consistent canon feats of one character to make the other win or look good then it is PIS, such as Hulk, who can take a hit from Thor wielding Mjolnir and still be standing then Cap doing anything to Hulk is indeed PIS. At least that is how I always looked at it.

    @muyjingo said:
    There is another thread in this forum at the moment that krauser99 made, showing feats far beyond the level cap should be capable of, and asking if he can become more powerful via his will. Let's say Cap is Enhanced Human all round, he still shouldn't be able to hold up a skyscraper or take down the hulk, right?

    Well with the skyscraper it depends, obviously not a whole skyscraper, LOL. (Not saying you said it was) but part of a skyscraper, sure, depending how much it is. I would have to look at the pic to really get a clear picture of if it's PIS or what. As far as my opinion on Hulk, I've stated a paragraph up, but yes that is, IMO (and almost everyone else's opinion as well), definitely PIS.

    @muyjingo said:
    Batman has been showing as being able to injure Darkseid, catch bullets, Punch through steel doors...things he should not be capable of. Generally you have to dismiss those feats as PIS or make some sort of explanation for them.

    The Darkseid feat, I can't really answer, as I don't really know much about him, but from what I do know, I would say yes it's PIS, since he can take punches from Superman. Catching bullets, I think, is feasible, since Bat's suit is, I think, Kevlar and he as been shown to time when a gunman will fire, and IRL, I saw on Ripley's a guy caught an arrow bare handed, so in the comic world, with Kevlar gloves, it is feasible that Batman could catch bullets, but if his gloves aren't bullet proof in some form then I would probably lean towards PIS. Punching through steel doors is something that bot Bats and Cap have done consistently for a while now so I would say canon. These are just my opinions, as I'm sure you realize.

    @muyjingo said:

    So, what do you do with cap? If he is shown as running at 60mph twice in the last 10 years, why is that an example of his capabilities and not PIS?

    I apologize for this, I meant to type 49mph, he actually can run a mile in 73 seconds, which brings in to 49mph. there has been a few times where he has ran 60 mph, but it's not something I think he can really sustain for long periods of time. I think the 60mph runs are attributed to adrenaline than anything else.

    @muyjingo said:
    If there is a more up to date legend I'd love to see it, that's the best I've been able to find. Don't you think there is also the possibility of him being written as overpowered?

    I apologize if my remark about the legend seem jerkish, I was reading it back to myself just now, and it seems jerkish to me. So I just want to make sure that you know it wasn't my intent.

    Now on to your question, is it a possibility that writers write him overpowered? Sure, absolutely, every character (especially street levelers), have been written overpowered at times, Hulk vs Cap, and Bats vs Darkseid, just to name the two we are currently talking about. But for the most part I think the majority of they're feats are feasible. (at least they ones we've been talking about on this thread. If we went by a case by case basis we'd finish by the time we're, like, 90 ;-) )

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    MuyJingo

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    #104  Edited By MuyJingo

    @tg1982 said:

    Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I think the line exists as such... In reference to a single (not between two or more characters) character ferat, if a character displays or conducts a feat that was previously never done before and since the first display has done it consistently since. Like for example Captain America dodging bullets after they've been fired, or lifting more than what he has previously been seen or noted as lifting, etc, etc, then it becomes canon. As for multiple characters (like Cap vs. Hulk and such) If it ignores the abilities or consistent canon feats of one character to make the other win or look good then it is PIS, such as Hulk, who can take a hit from Thor wielding Mjolnir and still be standing then Cap doing anything to Hulk is indeed PIS. At least that is how I always looked at it.

    See, I think we agree. I highlighted part of your post because it is what my argument boils down to. People are quick to show the 2 scans of Cap running 60mph, but these seem to be the only 2 scans of him doing this feat in the characters entire history. In that case, how is it not PIS? If he isn't showing as doing that consistantly, then it isn't a capability of the character, right?

    Well with the skyscraper it depends, obviously not a whole skyscraper, LOL. (Not saying you said it was) but part of a skyscraper, sure, depending how much it is. I would have to look at the pic to really get a clear picture of if it's PIS or what. As far as my opinion on Hulk, I've stated a paragraph up, but yes that is, IMO (and almost everyone else's opinion as well), definitely PIS.

    Yes, I do believe he was supporting an entire skyscraper. I have read not the issue but was going by the scan and detail krauser99 provided. I recommend you check out his thread to see what I am talking about.

    But, again we seem to agree. Ridiculous feats like that, which are not shown consistently do not define the characters capabilities and are down to bad writing/PIS.

    The Darkseid feat, I can't really answer, as I don't really know much about him, but from what I do know, I would say yes it's PIS, since he can take punches from Superman. Catching bullets, I think, is feasible, since Bat's suit is, I think, Kevlar and he as been shown to time when a gunman will fire, and IRL, I saw on Ripley's a guy caught an arrow bare handed, so in the comic world, with Kevlar gloves, it is feasible that Batman could catch bullets, but if his gloves aren't bullet proof in some form then I would probably lean towards PIS. Punching through steel doors is something that bot Bats and Cap have done consistently for a while now so I would say canon. These are just my opinions, as I'm sure you realize.

    Even if his gloves were bullet proof, how would he have the reflexes to catch a bullet? I can accept that and I can accept barging through steel doors as canon within the comic bok world, that's fine if these things are shown consistently. Consistency is key. My whole argument here is that people say captain america is superhuman, but they seem to be pulling from a few key feats which seem to be PIS. It seems the equivalent of arguing that Batman is superhuman because he can injure Darkseid or kick the Spectre.

    It's ridiculous to me. If the character is consistently portrayed that way, there should be an abundance of feats showing him in that capacity. With the lack of abundant feats and the official sources denying any superhuman capability, then I'm skeptical.

    I apologize for this, I meant to type 49mph, he actually can run a mile in 73 seconds, which brings in to 49mph. there has been a few times where he has ran 60 mph, but it's not something I think he can really sustain for long periods of time. I think the 60mph runs are attributed to adrenaline than anything else.

    Out of curiosity, where do you get that number from? Most stuff I've read puts his upper limit at about 35/mph.

    I apologize if my remark about the legend seem jerkish, I was reading it back to myself just now, and it seems jerkish to me. So I just want to make sure that you know it wasn't my intent.

    No worries, I didn't take it that way at all. I actually really appreciate your reply as a well worded and mature opinion, in stark contrast to many of the other replies.

    Now on to your question, is it a possibility that writers write him overpowered? Sure, absolutely, every character (especially street levelers), have been written overpowered at times, Hulk vs Cap, and Bats vs Darkseid, just to name the two we are currently talking about. But for the most part I think the majority of they're feats are feasible. (at least they ones we've been talking about on this thread. If we went by a case by case basis we'd finish by the time we're, like, 90 ;-) )

    Well, this question for me is about if Captain is peak, enhanced, or superhuman. No where is he listed as superhuman or enhanced...every published source, the official Marvel website etc, they all list him as peak. People are then showing feats that show him being superhuman, but the feats are not consistent, so to me they seem to be PIS.

    What would you say in this situation? If there is a lack of consistent feats showing the character to be anything more than peak human, why should he be classed as anything more than peak human?

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    tg1982

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    #105  Edited By tg1982

    @muyjingo said:

    See, I think we agree. I highlighted part of your post because it is what my argument boils down to. People are quick to show the 2 scans of Cap running 60mph, but these seem to be the only 2 scans of him doing this feat in the characters entire history. In that case, how is it not PIS? If he isn't showing as doing that consistantly, then it isn't a capability of the character, right?

    I think there does have to be a certain element of conceivability. As with the 60 mph running feats, both time were of life and death circumstances. If Cap's physiology is indeed perfect, as stated and shown in countless examples, then it is conceivable that his adrenal glands would also be in peak/perfect efficiency allowing him to run at 60 mph. Not necessarily all the time but in times of dire circumstance. So there is an element of conceivability to the feat. If he were to run say faster than Quicksilver then it is not conceivable, and there for PIS, IMO of course.

    @muyjingo said:
    Yes, I do believe he was supporting an entire skyscraper. I have read not the issue but was going by the scan and detail krauser99 provided. I recommend you check out his thread to see what I am talking about.

    But, again we seem to agree. Ridiculous feats like that, which are not shown consistently do not define the characters capabilities and are down to bad writing/PIS.

    I'll check out the scan. But there was a time, a while back, when he had legitimate super-strength, I forget how and why, but it has since been taken away. If it is during that time then the feat isn't PIS, but may have been taken out of context. If it isn't during that time then I would say that yes, it is PIS. But I'd have to check out the feat myself to say definitely on way or the other.

    @muyjingo said:

    Even if his gloves were bullet proof, how would he have the reflexes to catch a bullet? I can accept that and I can accept barging through steel doors as canon within the comic bok world, that's fine if these things are shown consistently. Consistency is key. My whole argument here is that people say captain america is superhuman, but they seem to be pulling from a few key feats which seem to be PIS. It seems the equivalent of arguing that Batman is superhuman because he can injure Darkseid or kick the Spectre

    Again Batman has consistently been shown to consistently dodge bullets and have amazing reflexes, so there is an element of conceivability. For an example again adrenaline, or even just natural response, if a force hits your palm or the inside of your hand hard enough it will naturally recoil and close obviously there is the comicbook element involved as well, but it is still conceivable, IMO.

    @muyjingo said:
    Out of curiosity, where do you get that number from? Most stuff I've read puts his upper limit at about 35/mph.

    Secrets Of Fire: Captain America 65th Anniversary Special, By Ed Brubaker 2006.

    @muyjingo said:

    No worries, I didn't take it that way at all. I actually really appreciate your reply as a well worded and mature opinion, in stark contrast to many of the other replies.

    Okay, cool. And thanks for the compliment. :-) I appreciate your replies as well, for the same reasons.

    @muyjingo said:

    Well, this question for me is about if Captain is peak, enhanced, or superhuman. No where is he listed as superhuman or enhanced...every published source, the official Marvel website etc, they all list him as peak.

    Well if anyone ever said that Cap is super-human, then they are misinformed to say the least. The only time that he was super-human was when he was given real super-strength, but that time has long past. I remember hearing that in Civil War, SHIELD listed him as enhanced, but since I have never read it and have only heard it via a Comicvine poster, I don't really count it. I still believe and maintain that he is the "peak of human potential" meaning what humanity can one day become and the "next step of human evolution", making him physically superior to modern day peak humans, in the Marvel Universe, but not super human. But if others want to categorize that as "enhanced human" then I'm fine with it, if they still want to consider him peak human then I'm fine with that too. It's all everyone's opinion.

    @muyjingo said:
    What would you say in this situation? If there is a lack of consistent feats showing the character to be anything more than peak human, why should he be classed as anything more than peak human?

    That character shouldn't be considered more than peak human. The only grey area for me, when concerning Cap, is modern day peak human, or the peak of what humanity will one day achieve. And with all the feats, in comic statements, and what writer interviews we do have to go on, I feel that Cap is , indeed, the peak of what humanity will one day achieve. It's just my opinion and belief.

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    @muyjingo:

    I just saw the skyscraper feat. In my opinion he wasn't holding up the whole skyscraper, but a portion of it. Also there's no telling how much weight he was actually supporting. Also it seems that they are underground in the basement level, so we don't even know how much was being supported by the surrounding beams and concrete walls. All I know for sure is that, contrary to what some posters may think, it is NOT the whole skyscraper. If it is than it is definitely PIS.

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    #107  Edited By krauser99

    @tg1982 said:

    @muyjingo:

    I just saw the skyscraper feat. In my opinion he wasn't holding up the whole skyscraper, but a portion of it. Also there's no telling how much weight he was actually supporting. Also it seems that they are underground in the basement level, so we don't even know how much was being supported by the surrounding beams and concrete walls. All I know for sure is that, contrary to what some posters may think, it is NOT the whole skyscraper. If it is than it is definitely PIS.

    Some things I agree with what you say but other things I don't. I agree with you he was not holding up the whole thing. But a huge portion he indeed was. First when Cap held the skyscrapper weight he wasn't yet on the basement floor, that happened after when Sharon helped them underground. He was on the outside but went back inside on the ground level that see's all the interior and exterior of the massive skyscrapper, to help save that construction worker. And in that area there was no ceilings or concrete walls(as you say) built to assist Cap. Now you can make the claim that some of the other steele like girders could have assisted Steve but once you see the other girders crumpling and the crash of the sky scrapper, kind of throws off that idea as well. Plus considering the height of this skyscrapper it is quite massive, as it's shown along height of the other buildings.

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    MuyJingo

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    @tg1982 said:

    I think there does have to be a certain element of conceivability. As with the 60 mph running feats, both time were of life and death circumstances. If Cap's physiology is indeed perfect, as stated and shown in countless examples, then it is conceivable that his adrenal glands would also be in peak/perfect efficiency allowing him to run at 60 mph. Not necessarily all the time but in times of dire circumstance. So there is an element of conceivability to the feat. If he were to run say faster than Quicksilver then it is not conceivable, and there for PIS, IMO of course.

    OK, I can agree with that. However, that isn't an example of how the character is consistently portrayed, or his capabilities. I mean, lets say for example that Batman managed to hold his breath for 4 minutes under water (he can hold it for 3 minutes 15 seconds IIRC), that doesn't make him an enhanced human (in comic book terms), it's just that due to extenuating circumstances he was able to surpass what he is normally capable of. I can accept feats like that as not being PIS, but I don't accept that such feats become the measure of that characters capabilities.

    Many fans in this thread are using cap running at 60mph to claim he can do that everytime and anytime. That doesn't make sense to me, as if he could, surely he would given all the times it would come in handy. Which means it was either PIS or there were extenuating circumstances. Given it only seems to have happened twice in the characters history, I'm leaning towards seeing it as PIS as opposed to something the character is occasionally capable of.

    I'll check out the scan. But there was a time, a while back, when he had legitimate super-strength, I forget how and why, but it has since been taken away. If it is during that time then the feat isn't PIS, but may have been taken out of context. If it isn't during that time then I would say that yes, it is PIS. But I'd have to check out the feat myself to say definitely on way or the other.

    Well, this is an interesting point. Krauser99 has posted and clarified, it doesn't seem to be when he had super strength, soafter seeing the extra scans krauser99 provided, do you still say it is PIS?

    Again Batman has consistently been shown to consistently dodge bullets and have amazing reflexes, so there is an element of conceivability. For an example again adrenaline, or even just natural response, if a force hits your palm or the inside of your hand hard enough it will naturally recoil and close obviously there is the comicbook element involved as well, but it is still conceivable, IMO.

    Batman has been shown to dodge bullets at a distance, not catch them at almost point blank. But, I understand your point. Peak human in the comic book world is different from what any hypothetical peak human could do in the real world. The question is then, is Captain America at the level of comic book peak human, or above? This thread is full of people arguing that he is at the very least enhanced human, if not super human. That is the opinion of k4tzm4n as well. The thing is, there is little to back it up, except for isolated feats like him running 60mph, hurting the hulk or holding up a skyscraper.

    Secrets Of Fire: Captain America 65th Anniversary Special, By Ed Brubaker 2006.

    Brubaker is also of the opinion that "peak human" means peak of human potential, and I don't know if that's an opinion writers before him shared. The Marvel website for example lists his peak speed as being about 35mph. Which is a better source? What speed has he most consistently been showing capable of running at?

    Okay, cool. And thanks for the compliment. :-) I appreciate your replies as well, for the same reasons.

    Thanks :)

    Well if anyone ever said that Cap is super-human, then they are misinformed to say the least. The only time that he was super-human was when he was given real super-strength, but that time has long past. I remember hearing that in Civil War, SHIELD listed him as enhanced, but since I have never read it and have only heard it via a Comicvine poster, I don't really count it. I still believe and maintain that he is the "peak of human potential" meaning what humanity can one day become and the "next step of human evolution", making him physically superior to modern day peak humans, in the Marvel Universe, but not super human. But if others want to categorize that as "enhanced human" then I'm fine with it, if they still want to consider him peak human then I'm fine with that too. It's all everyone's opinion.

    When I have tried searching this, there are many threads on this forum alone, such as "Cap is Superhuman why doesn't Marvel admit it". They seem to be accepting all feats that I look at as PIS as a true example of the characters capabilities. It's funny you mention Civil War, because that's the only Marvel event I have read and is the most Captain America I've read. I don't recall him being listed as enhanced, although I wasn't aware of this discrepancy so wasn't looking out for it.

    The most interesting thing is though, from what I remember reading, he didn't do anything that a comic book "peak human" wouldn't be capable of. Certainly nothing that would indicate enhanced or human status. That's why I find it suspicious when the cap fans cling to the same few scans as evidence. If the character is consistently written at that level, there should be a multitude of scans.

    If he is indeed the peak of what humanity may one day become, then I don't have an issue with him being called an enhanced human. That's just semantics to me.

    The problem to me is however that peak human, without any added explanation should be interrupted as...essentially Batman. The most physically fit and capable that a human could be. The difference is one came from obsessively working out, and the other from a serum. From what I've been reading, despite what Brubaker said, Captain America should essentially be equivalent to Batman with the shield and a different set of training, healing factor and personality differences aside. I'm only talking about the "peak human" aspect here.

    If he is more than that, if he is significantly stronger or faster or whatever, then he should be listed as enhanced. However, since the company that owns the character, since every published source and every description of the character describes him as peak (without the added explanation to redefine it to what humans may one day be capable of), then I see no reason to class him as enhanced.

    To put it a different way, using the same logic that cap fans are using in this thread, I could make the argument that Batman is "enhanced human" by sticking to several examples of PIS. It doesn't make it so.

    That character shouldn't be considered more than peak human. The only grey area for me, when concerning Cap, is modern day peak human, or the peak of what humanity will one day achieve. And with all the feats, in comic statements, and what writer interviews we do have to go on, I feel that Cap is , indeed, the peak of what humanity will one day achieve. It's just my opinion and belief.

    OK, I can agree with you here. So far in researching this issue, the only writer I've found who gives a definitive answer is Brubaker. Can you references some other writers speaking on the issue?

    Likewise, can you give some examples of him being consistently portrayed as more than comic book peak human? I don't even want scans or issue numbers, although that would be great. Just any stuff that you remember that you don't consider PIS.

    I'm genuinely interested in this discussion. Although I am surprised I'm so outnumbered in this thread when other threads I've found are pretty evenly divided.

    @tg1982 said:

    I just saw the skyscraper feat. In my opinion he wasn't holding up the whole skyscraper, but a portion of it. Also there's no telling how much weight he was actually supporting. Also it seems that they are underground in the basement level, so we don't even know how much was being supported by the surrounding beams and concrete walls. All I know for sure is that, contrary to what some posters may think, it is NOT the whole skyscraper. If it is than it is definitely PIS.

    That would have been my initial thought looking at the scan, but I was going by what krauser99 said as he knows the character better and actually read the issue. Holding up some debris is one thing...most of the ruins of an entire skyscraper quite another.

    The problem with stuff like this is you have posters who are claiming that is what the character is capable of, because it happened. I don't understand that rationale. It doesn't make any kind of sense.

    Some things I agree with what you say but other things I don't. I agree with you he was not holding up the whole thing. But a huge portion he indeed was. First when Cap held the skyscrapper weight he wasn't yet on the basement floor, that happened after when Sharon helped them underground. He was on the outside but went back inside on the ground level that see's all the interior and exterior of the massive skyscrapper, to help save that construction worker. And in that area there was no ceilings or concrete walls(as you say) built to assist Cap. Now you can make the claim that some of the other steele like girders could have assisted Steve but once you see the other girders crumpling and the crash of the sky scrapper, kind of throws off that idea as well. Plus considering the height of this skyscrapper it is quite massive, as it's shown along height of the other buildings.

    Just to clarify, as succinctly as possible, it is your interpretation that cap was supporting most of the weight of the demolished skyscraper?

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    @krauser99 said:

    Some things I agree with what you say but other things I don't. I agree with you he was not holding up the whole thing. But a huge portion he indeed was. First when Cap held the skyscrapper weight he wasn't yet on the basement floor, that happened after when Sharon helped them underground. He was on the outside but went back inside on the ground level that see's all the interior and exterior of the massive skyscrapper, to help save that construction worker. And in that area there was no ceilings or concrete walls(as you say) built to assist Cap. Now you can make the claim that some of the other steele like girders could have assisted Steve but once you see the other girders crumpling and the crash of the sky scrapper, kind of throws off that idea as well. Plus considering the height of this skyscrapper it is quite massive, as it's shown along height of the other buildings.

    Just to clarify, as succinctly as possible, it is your interpretation that cap was supporting most of the weight of the demolished skyscraper?

    Only the given weight of his general area is plausible IMO. All the weight itself is impossible since some of it would have collapsed and touched the outer ground area "around" Cap and the two he was saving. And considering it was massive possibly around the 40,000 ton range or more or less. Anything I guess is just "speculation". But it's seems to be obvious it's a lot, considering Sharon warned the worker that if he enjoys being 3 dimensional, he better get it right.

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    #110  Edited By tg1982

    @muyjingo said:

    OK, I can agree with that. However, that isn't an example of how the character is consistently portrayed, or his capabilities. I mean, lets say for example that Batman managed to hold his breath for 4 minutes under water (he can hold it for 3 minutes 15 seconds IIRC), that doesn't make him an enhanced human (in comic book terms), it's just that due to extenuating circumstances he was able to surpass what he is normally capable of. I can accept feats like that as not being PIS, but I don't accept that such feats become the measure of that characters capabilities.

    I understand what you're saying. This is where I think we differ, to a certain extent. I would consider and accept that feat to be a measure of their capabilities, but just the absolute limit of their abilities, but I wouldn't say they could do it all the time.

    I should have added the conceivability part to the post where I give my opinion on how to separate PIS from a high-end feat, but I honestly just forgot to add it. However I want to stress that even their conceivable high-end feats should still be taken with a grain of salt, because, as I'm sure you've already experienced, posters will try to use them as an "everyday" ability, especially when trying to make a point, especially in the battle boards.

    For me the bottom line is this... can Cap run at 60mph? Yes. Can he do it consistently, whenever he wants? No. Why? Because it is a high-end feat that is at the limit of what he is capable of. That is the limit of his speed. Can Batman hold his breath for 4:00 minutes? Yes. (I don't really follow Batman so, for the sake of argument, I'm using this as a true example). Is it something he can do every time? No. Why? Because it is a high-end feat that is at the limit of what he is capable of. That is the limit of his ability, in that respect. Basically for the borderline feats it really comes down to the individual and their own judgment. At least until the character has done it often enough to be considered "commonplace" which then raises the question what is an appropriate amount of times to be considered commonplace?

    @muyjingo said:
    Many fans in this thread are using cap running at 60mph to claim he can do that everytime and anytime. That doesn't make sense to me, as if he could, surely he would given all the times it would come in handy. Which means it was either PIS or there were extenuating circumstances. Given it only seems to have happened twice in the characters history, I'm leaning towards seeing it as PIS as opposed to something the character is occasionally capable of.

    Well, I don't think he can, whenever he wants to, but to be fair, how often do writers state the speed at which characters are running? You don't really see statements giving the speed at which they are running, but no I don't think he can run 60mph all the time, every time. Only when the situation is dire enough. And he has no other option.

    @muyjingo said:

    Well, this is an interesting point. Krauser99 has posted and clarified, it doesn't seem to be when he had super strength, soafter seeing the extra scans krauser99 provided, do you still say it is PIS?

    Honestly, I think it's too inconclusive due to lack of information. I'm leaning towards not PIS, because IMO, 1- it's not really a skyscraper, just the frame work, 2- He's not holding all of it, or even half of it or even a quarter of it. I do think that the feat is easy to sensationalize or take out of context, but in the end, there is just to little info to say how much weight he is actually supporting, it could be a hundred lbs or a million lbs. There is simply not enough information there to extrapolate to say one way or the other. So I would say it is a conceivable high-end feat, just not a very good one for the purposes of debate and discussion, due to the lack of information about the weight he is supporting.

    @muyjingo said:

    Batman has been shown to dodge bullets at a distance, not catch them at almost point blank. But, I understand your point. Peak human in the comic book world is different from what any hypothetical peak human could do in the real world. The question is then, is Captain America at the level of comic book peak human, or above? This thread is full of people arguing that he is at the very least enhanced human, if not super human. That is the opinion of k4tzm4n as well. The thing is, there is little to back it up, except for isolated feats like him running 60mph, hurting the hulk or holding up a skyscraper.

    Again, I can't speak for them, but I think Cap is above current Marvel peak humans, and is at the peak of what humanity would one day become. I feel that it's really up to individual interpretation as to if that is "enhanced" or "peak human". I'm not even sure, honestly, which side of the fence I'm on personally, as for the "enhanced" or "peak human". That's why I just go by the description Marvel uses, which is the "peak of human potential" and leave it at that.

    @muyjingo said:

    Brubaker is also of the opinion that "peak human" means peak of human potential, and I don't know if that's an opinion writers before him shared. The Marvel website for example lists his peak speed as being about 35mph. Which is a better source? What speed has he most consistently been showing capable of running at?

    I think there have been many writers before Brubaker who were of the same mind, he's not the first one to use the "peak of human potential" quote, as far as I know he is the first one to go public with it though. Even Stan Lee, I think is of like mind. But unfortunately Brubaker is the only one that I know of that ever came out and said it. Even the Marvel website states "Captain America represented the pinnacle of human physical perfection. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but generally performed just below superhuman levels for most of his career." In general, most people go by the writers and actual comics over the power levels of the website and handbooks, because they do tend to be inaccurate.

    @muyjingo said:

    When I have tried searching this, there are many threads on this forum alone, such as "Cap is Superhuman why doesn't Marvel admit it". They seem to be accepting all feats that I look at as PIS as a true example of the characters capabilities. It's funny you mention Civil War, because that's the only Marvel event I have read and is the most Captain America I've read. I don't recall him being listed as enhanced, although I wasn't aware of this discrepancy so wasn't looking out for it.

    Those usually tend to be over enthusiastic fans, or simply posters trying to start a troll thread, IMO. As for the Civil War "enhanced" thing. I might have been in one of the tie-in books and not the actual book itself. I'm unsure.

    @muyjingo said:

    If he is indeed the peak of what humanity may one day become, then I don't have an issue with him being called an enhanced human. That's just semantics to me.

    The problem to me is however that peak human, without any added explanation should be interrupted as...essentially Batman. The most physically fit and capable that a human could be. The difference is one came from obsessively working out, and the other from a serum. From what I've been reading, despite what Brubaker said, Captain America should essentially be equivalent to Batman with the shield and a different set of training, healing factor and personality differences aside. I'm only talking about the "peak human" aspect here.

    The thing with Brubaker is that he may be only one writer, but he isn't the only writer or the first writer to throw int the "peak of human potential" quote for Cap while other characters in Marvel are "peak human", why the difference? It has to be for some reason. Also Brubaker wrote Cap for (around) ten years, so that's ten years of his interpretation of Cap. So his view shouldn't be discounted so easily. That years and years of feats, stories, etc, etc. There are many scans that display cap as being "enhanced" for example the "shield through a truck" feat, Cap stopping a falling elevator, closing missile silo doors, using his shield to wreck Iron Man's armor, catching a flying missile, jumping onto a two story building's roof, leaping on to a jet from the Shield Helicarrier, breaking the canopy of said jet and holding on while the jet flies around. Punching Wolverine (who weighs over 300lbs, due to adamantium) several feet and through two car doors, dodging bullets after they've been fired, being injured breaks through a steel door a foot thick, and many of these aren't even from Brubaker's run. So there are many writers who seem to write him in that manner. I don't know much about Batman, except from the movies, so I don't know if these are thing he has done or is capable of.

    @muyjingo said:
    OK, I can agree with you here. So far in researching this issue, the only writer I've found who gives a definitive answer is Brubaker. Can you references some other writers speaking on the issue?

    Likewise, can you give some examples of him being consistently portrayed as more than comic book peak human? I don't even want scans or issue numbers, although that would be great. Just any stuff that you remember that you don't consider PIS.

    I'm genuinely interested in this discussion. Although I am surprised I'm so outnumbered in this thread when other threads I've found are pretty evenly divided.

    Yeah, no prob. I've got plenty of scans, but it'll take me some time. I'll just PM them to you, so this thread doesn't get side tracked into an appreciation thread.

    @muyjingo said:

    Just to clarify, as succinctly as possible, it is your interpretation that cap was supporting most of the weight of the demolished skyscraper?

    In my opinion, no way in heck was Cap supporting most of the wait, half of the weight, or even a third of the weight. Maybe a quarter of the weight, even then I'm not sure, the pic doesn't lend itself to too much information. It's impossible to know for sure without any kind of speculation, how much he was supporting. But no he was not supporting most of the weight. Just my opinion though.

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    #111  Edited By krauser99

    @tg1982 said:

    1- it's not really a skyscraper, just the frame work

    I believe it's a unfinished skyscraper, since the construction crews were working on it. But the narration seems to indicate it is a skyscraper type building, that they were making.

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    @tg1982

    Hey, so I would like to say I am very sorry about the late reply. I kept meaning to get back to you but never got around to it. I just started a new job so I've been pretty busy. So, now to get more into it.

    I understand what you're saying. This is where I think we differ, to a certain extent. I would consider and accept that feat to be a measure of their capabilities, but just the absolute limit of their abilities, but I wouldn't say they could do it all the time.

    Yeah...I have to admit I'm kind of the same way. Because otherwise you essentially have to ignore such feats or find a way to explain them away. Explaining them away is the easiest way to maintain continuity. When it becomes something a character has only done once and doesn't repeat, even when the situation more than warrants it, then I become skeptical they can reach that feat again. I'm going to use a flash example as a hypothetical. I'm not too familiar with flash outside of the N52 so I'm not claiming anything either way...it's just an example.

    Flash was shown evacuating everyone off an island or out of an area as a nuke went off. Why doesn't he or why can't he do that every time a disaster strikes in order to save people? My guess is because there are special circumstances that allowed him to go that fast that were not explained. Same thing with Cap I would think.

    I should have added the conceivability part to the post where I give my opinion on how to separate PIS from a high-end feat, but I honestly just forgot to add it. However I want to stress that even their conceivable high-end feats should still be taken with a grain of salt, because, as I'm sure you've already experienced, posters will try to use them as an "everyday" ability, especially when trying to make a point, especially in the battle boards.

    Well yeah, and this is why this thread is still going on. There seems to only be very few examples of cap doing superhuman or enhanced human stuff, yet cap fans cling to the same few examples claiming he can do that stuff everyday if he wanted to. He just chooses not to, even when it would makes things easier on him.

    Well, I don't think he can, whenever he wants to, but to be fair, how often do writers state the speed at which characters are running? You don't really see statements giving the speed at which they are running, but no I don't think he can run 60mph all the time, every time. Only when the situation is dire enough. And he has no other option.

    So if I understand you correctly, you are saying because his running speed is generally not explicitly stated, it is assumed to be close to 60mph because that is what he is capable of? Not everytime he runs but when he has been running in critical emergencies, you think he is running close to that speed?

    Honestly, I think it's too inconclusive due to lack of information. I'm leaning towards not PIS, because IMO, 1- it's not really a skyscraper, just the frame work, 2- He's not holding all of it, or even half of it or even a quarter of it. I do think that the feat is easy to sensationalize or take out of context, but in the end, there is just to little info to say how much weight he is actually supporting, it could be a hundred lbs or a million lbs. There is simply not enough information there to extrapolate to say one way or the other. So I would say it is a conceivable high-end feat, just not a very good one for the purposes of debate and discussion, due to the lack of information about the weight he is supporting.

    Agreed.

    Again, I can't speak for them, but I think Cap is above current Marvel peak humans, and is at the peak of what humanity would one day become. I feel that it's really up to individual interpretation as to if that is "enhanced" or "peak human". I'm not even sure, honestly, which side of the fence I'm on personally, as for the "enhanced" or "peak human". That's why I just go by the description Marvel uses, which is the "peak of human potential" and leave it at that.

    What makes you consider him to be above marvel peak humans?I mean, other peak humans regularly do enhanced human or PIS feats depending on how you look at it, yet they don't lose their status as peak human. Why does cap get to be elevated?

    I've been trying to track down the marvel handbook entry on cap from 2010, but haven't been able to find it so far. I would be curious what it says.

    I think there have been many writers before Brubaker who were of the same mind, he's not the first one to use the "peak of human potential" quote, as far as I know he is the first one to go public with it though. Even Stan Lee, I think is of like mind. But unfortunately Brubaker is the only one that I know of that ever came out and said it. Even the Marvel website states "Captain America represented the pinnacle of human physical perfection. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but generally performed just below superhuman levels for most of his career." In general, most people go by the writers and actual comics over the power levels of the website and handbooks, because they do tend to be inaccurate.

    Can you give some examples of official sources being inaccurate? I mean I know they can be, but generally the websites, the wiki's, the official handbooks tend to be accurate. It's stuff like stats on figurines that tends to be inaccurate...

    I think if many writers share an opinion but if it is one writer, then I would be skeptical. Look at Batman for example, I wouldn't trust any one writers opinion o Batman because they all write him differently. I'm fine going by comics as well, which is why I have continually asked some other members on the board to show scans of cap doing superhuman things. Certain members claimed to be able to provide such proof, but when called out on it were unable to do so. As above, my point is that if cap is shown consistently doing these things, then I have no trouble accepting him as enhanced. But at the moment, it's very few scans, which makes me doubt he is. If he is, he should have an enhanced level feat every second issue or so.

    The thing with Brubaker is that he may be only one writer, but he isn't the only writer or the first writer to throw int the "peak of human potential" quote for Cap while other characters in Marvel are "peak human", why the difference? It has to be for some reason. Also Brubaker wrote Cap for (around) ten years, so that's ten years of his interpretation of Cap. So his view shouldn't be discounted so easily. That years and years of feats, stories, etc, etc. There are many scans that display cap as being "enhanced" for example the "shield through a truck" feat, Cap stopping a falling elevator, closing missile silo doors, using his shield to wreck Iron Man's armor, catching a flying missile, jumping onto a two story building's roof, leaping on to a jet from the Shield Helicarrier, breaking the canopy of said jet and holding on while the jet flies around. Punching Wolverine (who weighs over 300lbs, due to adamantium) several feet and through two car doors, dodging bullets after they've been fired, being injured breaks through a steel door a foot thick, and many of these aren't even from Brubaker's run. So there are many writers who seem to write him in that manner. I don't know much about Batman, except from the movies, so I don't know if these are thing he has done or is capable of.

    I'm not discounting Brubaker's run....I just don't think he should define the character. I mean, if he changed it so the charcater became enhanced when he took over, that's one thing. Would you say that is a possibility, that Brubaker started writing him as more powerful?

    Yeah, no prob. I've got plenty of scans, but it'll take me some time. I'll just PM them to you, so this thread doesn't get side tracked into an appreciation thread.

    Awesome, thank you!

    In my opinion, no way in heck was Cap supporting most of the wait, half of the weight, or even a third of the weight. Maybe a quarter of the weight, even then I'm not sure, the pic doesn't lend itself to too much information. It's impossible to know for sure without any kind of speculation, how much he was supporting. But no he was not supporting most of the weight. Just my opinion though.

    More information was revealed, but I still agree with you that it crashed around him and he was supporting debris

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    @muyjingo said:

    Hey, so I would like to say I am very sorry about the late reply. I kept meaning to get back to you but never got around to it. I just started a new job so I've been pretty busy. So, now to get more into it.

    No worries. I've been super busy at my job too. So I understand completely.

    @muyjingo said:
    Yeah...I have to admit I'm kind of the same way. Because otherwise you essentially have to ignore such feats or find a way to explain them away. Explaining them away is the easiest way to maintain continuity. When it becomes something a character has only done once and doesn't repeat, even when the situation more than warrants it, then I become skeptical they can reach that feat again.

    Yeah, I agree with this.

    @muyjingo said:

    Well yeah, and this is why this thread is still going on. There seems to only be very few examples of cap doing superhuman or enhanced human stuff, yet cap fans cling to the same few examples claiming he can do that stuff everyday if he wanted to. He just chooses not to, even when it would makes things easier on him.

    To be fair this happens with a lot of heroes, Batman, Superman, Wolverine the list goes on, and on, and on. Remember "fan" is short for FANatic. The best thing to do is really just ignore the more zealous ones, since they'll just see thing their way. This goes for ALL heroes of course.

    @muyjingo said:

    So if I understand you correctly, you are saying because his running speed is generally not explicitly stated, it is assumed to be close to 60mph because that is what he is capable of? Not everytime he runs but when he has been running in critical emergencies, you think he is running close to that speed?

    What I'm saying is, that often times there isn't any evidence of what speed he's running at. So it isn't too crazy to say he could be running at speeds close to or at 60mph, granted he could also be running at 40 or 30, etc, etc. Basically unless specifically stated he could be running at any speed, with in reason. Anything from 1mph to 60mph.

    My own personal opinion is that yes on the occasions that he has to run at top speeds (around 60mph) he can but he's not doing it all the time or for extended periods of time, because it is taxing on him physically, and it's his absolute limit, but I will admit that the situations and scenarios in which he could, or would, or is running at those speeds is often times left to the interpretation of each individual reader, so it is hard to pin-point each and every time he definitely does it.

    @muyjingo said:

    What makes you consider him to be above marvel peak humans? I mean, other peak humans regularly do enhanced human or PIS feats depending on how you look at it, yet they don't lose their status as peak human. Why does cap get to be elevated?

    I've been trying to track down the marvel handbook entry on cap from 2010, but haven't been able to find it so far. I would be curious what it says.

    The only human to be stated as Cap's physical equal is Black Panther, who took the heart shaped herb. I can't think of any other Marvel peak humans to be equal to Cap. Many believe that Daredevil is peak human, but Cap still physically outclasses him in almost all categories except agility which, IIRC, is actually enhanced do to his radar sense. (I'm not to current on Daredevil, so I am unsure but that is what many posters have said, so I apologize if I'm wrong). To be honest I can't think of any human heroes (in Marvel, I don't really follow DC so I'm unsure about them) that are a match for Cap physically with out the use of outside help, Black Panther has his heart shaped herb, Iron Fist has his chi powers. Shang Chi is peak human possibly, but Cap outclasses him physically, IMO. And I also don't think Cap is elevated beyond peak human. I think he is the peak of human potential, the peak of what humanity could one day become, not the peak of what humanity currently is in the Marvel universe. As I've said if others want to classify that as "enhanced" then fine. If they want to classify it as "peak" then I'm fine with that too.

    @muyjingo said:

    Can you give some examples of official sources being inaccurate? I mean I know they can be, but generally the websites, the wiki's, the official handbooks tend to be accurate. It's stuff like stats on figurines that tends to be inaccurate...

    Well, I think the old 1992 Marvel hand book previously posted, while not necessarily "inaccurate" is obsolete. Usually it's the actual numerical stats that are inaccurate, like on Marvel's website. It had (I have not been on it in sometime so it could have changed by now) Elektra's strength and speed higher than Cap's, when to my knowledge she has never had any feats to prove she is even equal to Cap, let alone superior to him in those categories. In fact she is also stated, by Marvel, to be Olympic level in all physical aspects, while Cap has been stated, by Marvel, to be superior to Olympic level.

    @muyjingo said:

    I think if many writers share an opinion but if it is one writer, then I would be skeptical. Look at Batman for example, I wouldn't trust any one writers opinion o Batman because they all write him differently. I'm fine going by comics as well, which is why I have continually asked some other members on the board to show scans of cap doing superhuman things. Certain members claimed to be able to provide such proof, but when called out on it were unable to do so. As above, my point is that if cap is shown consistently doing these things, then I have no trouble accepting him as enhanced. But at the moment, it's very few scans, which makes me doubt he is. If he is, he should have an enhanced level feat every second issue or so.

    Well I don't have access to a scanner, so I the best I can do is list the feats and issue # for you. But I did give you quite a few examples of what could be considered "enhanced" feats, and many of them were in fact not by Brubaker.

    @muyjingo said:

    I'm not discounting Brubaker's run....I just don't think he should define the character. I mean, if he changed it so the charcater became enhanced when he took over, that's one thing. Would you say that is a possibility, that Brubaker started writing him as more powerful?

    Is it a possibility? Absolutely. But again, many feats I've listed previously were not from his run. Waid, Jurgens, Gruenwald have all written Cap in a similar manner. In fact many of the high-end borderline PIS feats are from Jurgens, such as the "skyscraper feat". Even Stan Lee wrote Cap with similar feats back in the day.

    @muyjingo said:

    Awesome, thank you!

    No prob.

    @muyjingo said:

    More information was revealed, but I still agree with you that it crashed around him and he was supporting debris

    Yeah. I still think it's impressive. Just not a good feat for the purposes of debate.

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    @tg1982: Wow, it's been almost a month since you replied. I'm sorry man...too busy with work to make more than quick posts, but I will get to you, hopefully this weekend!

    At the moment, I just wanted to post a scan I was happy to finally come across.

    No Caption Provided

    This is from 2011, the Captain America one shot of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. It clearly shows him as peak, not enhanced and not peak of potential just peak without the word being redefined. His speed and strength is at the very upper limits of what a human would be capable off, perhaps a little bit exaggerated since it's comics.

    This takes into account Brubakers entire run as well. It's fine to dismiss it and go by feats instead, I just wanted to post it as others may find it interesting.

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    #115  Edited By MuyJingo

    @tg1982 said:

    No worries. I've been super busy at my job too. So I understand completely.

    Aye, thanks. I guess it suits us both to reply a month apart :)

    To make this shorter I'm omitting the points on which we agree, I hope you don't mind.

    To be fair this happens with a lot of heroes, Batman, Superman, Wolverine the list goes on, and on, and on. Remember "fan" is short for FANatic. The best thing to do is really just ignore the more zealous ones, since they'll just see thing their way. This goes for ALL heroes of course.

    Oh, I agree. It's just that most of the time, we can dismisses the exceptions to their stated capabilities as PIS. Cap fans in general, as opposed to a few obsessive fans, seem to use these feats to define the character.

    What I'm saying is, that often times there isn't any evidence of what speed he's running at. So it isn't too crazy to say he could be running at speeds close to or at 60mph, granted he could also be running at 40 or 30, etc, etc. Basically unless specifically stated he could be running at any speed, with in reason. Anything from 1mph to 60mph.

    That's a valid interpretation, but I feel like that kind of interpretation is only something I would use in a battle thread.

    Given that he is stated as not being able to run more than 30mph even in the most recent handbook entry that I posted above, that takes into account Brubakers run...I'd rather go by that. I really think it makes more sense

    If his running speed isn't generally stated, then I don't see why it should be assumed to be around the level of one PIS feat. I think it makes more sense to essentially ignore that PIS feat and fanwank some explanation, than to assume it is the standard for the characters abilities.

    If his running speed was consistently stated as being around that, that would be different.

    The only human to be stated as Cap's physical equal is Black Panther, who took the heart shaped herb. I can't think of any other Marvel peak humans to be equal to Cap. Many believe that Daredevil is peak human, but Cap still physically outclasses him in almost all categories except agility which, IIRC, is actually enhanced do to his radar sense.

    I meant officially. Officially Cap is peak human...there are other peak humans in the MU. Isn't Black Widow meant to be Cap's phsyical equal....the result of a Russian super soldier serum?

    Well, I think the old 1992 Marvel hand book previously posted, while not necessarily "inaccurate" is obsolete. Usually it's the actual numerical stats that are inaccurate, like on Marvel's website. It had (I have not been on it in sometime so it could have changed by now) Elektra's strength and speed higher than Cap's, when to my knowledge she has never had any feats to prove she is even equal to Cap, let alone superior to him in those categories. In fact she is also stated, by Marvel, to be Olympic level in all physical aspects, while Cap has been stated, by Marvel, to be superior to Olympic level.

    I managed to find the most recent OHOTMU entry for Cap, from 2011. I posted it above. It takes into account Brubakers entire run, and still lists him as peak. Speed 30mph, strength lifting about 800lbs. This is even in line with what I posted from 1992 (which I agree is obsolete, I just couldn't find anything more recent). The Marvel website also lists him as peak. I haven't been able to find Elektras strength and speed being listed as higher than Cap yet...do you have a link or a reference?

    Well I don't have access to a scanner, so I the best I can do is list the feats and issue # for you. But I did give you quite a few examples of what could be considered "enhanced" feats, and many of them were in fact not by Brubaker.

    Well, as above, it's about drawing the line between PIS feats and representing/defining the characters standard ability.

    I'd like to try a different tactic though. I think you agreed with me above that unless a feat is recurring consistently, then it can be dismissed/explained away/fanwanked as PIS.

    So, I think it makes sense that if Cap is enhanced, or the peak of human potential, i.e. more physically capable than Batman, we should see evidence of this in most issues. At least every third issue, 4 times a year...does that sound reasonable?

    If so, can you give me maybe 10 issues over the last 3 years where he is shown doing something that would warrant him being called enhanced or shown to be more than human? Lifting things Daredevil or Batman couldn't lift, running faster than they could run, etc.

    That's what it comes down to for me. If he is shown to be consistently at that level, i.e doing something enhanced or super frequently in his issues, then yes he is obviously at that level. Otherwise, no, he isn't, and he just has PIS feats like every character.

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    #116  Edited By tg1982

    @muyjingo said:

    To make this shorter I'm omitting the points on which we agree, I hope you don't mind.

    Nope, no worries. I actually prefer it, so we won't go in circles discussing something we already agree on. :-)

    @muyjingo said:

    Oh, I agree. It's just that most of the time, we can dismisses the exceptions to their stated capabilities as PIS. Cap fans in general, as opposed to a few obsessive fans, seem to use these feats to define the character.

    Unfortunately, I can't help you with that. You just have to ignore it. But I understand what you're saying.

    @muyjingo said:
    Given that he is stated as not being able to run more than 30mph even in the most recent handbook entry that I posted above, that takes into account Brubakers run...I'd rather go by that. I really think it makes more sense

    If his running speed isn't generally stated, then I don't see why it should be assumed to be around the level of one PIS feat. I think it makes more sense to essentially ignore that PIS feat and fanwank some explanation, than to assume it is the standard for the characters abilities.

    There are actually 2 feats where he exceeds 30mph. The first one was way back, unfortunately I don't know the issue number, but some lame bad guys were chasing him on large ostrich-like birds that could run at 50mph and Cap outran them, the second is the feat in Brubaker's run. ;-) But yeah, that seems fair.

    @muyjingo said:

    I meant officially. Officially Cap is peak human...there are other peak humans in the MU. Isn't Black Widow meant to be Cap's phsyical equal....the result of a Russian super soldier serum?

    The only other peak human that I can think of, as stated by Marvel, is Black Panther, who took the HSH (He may actually be stronger now, I don't read his solo, just New Avengers). As for Black Widow, no way is she peak human, at least in terms of feats from the comics. All she really has, that I know of, is not aging.

    @muyjingo said:

    I managed to find the most recent OHOTMU entry for Cap, from 2011. I posted it above. It takes into account Brubakers entire run, and still lists him as peak. Speed 30mph, strength lifting about 800lbs. This is even in line with what I posted from 1992 (which I agree is obsolete, I just couldn't find anything more recent). The Marvel website also lists him as peak. I haven't been able to find Elektras strength and speed being listed as higher than Cap yet...do you have a link or a reference?

    As for the OHOTMU from 2011, the only thing that's updated, is the history portion of the handbook, detailing Cap's most recent adventures. The black inset is literally just pasted on from previous handbooks, currently, on the Marvel website his speed rating, is a 3, not a 2. As for the inconsistencies I've mention about power-grids, Marvel website, as an example, here is the Elektra power grid http://marvel.com/universe/Elektra also go to powers and it says "none" then go to abilities and it says (this is a direct copy and paste)...

    "Elektra is an Olympic-level athlete and gymnast, possessing strength, speed, agility, reflexes, and endurance at the pinnacle of human performance. She is a superb hand-to-hand combatant and martial artist."

    Even the abilities is contradicting, she's an Olympic-level athlete and gymnast, but is more peak human than Cap's peak human? Yet being the "pinnacle of human performance" was literally invented by and for Captain America. Yet Elektra is stronger (4), waaaaaay faster (6), and even more durable (2) than Captain America. She is listed as having "no powers" but apparently has an energy projection of 2, WTF? Also for perspective, Quicksilver who possesses superspeed, is at a 7, so she is just under Quicksilver in speed, but has no powers, is equal to an Olympic-level athlete but is still superior to an Olympic-level athlete?

    Now here is Cap's Marvel site page... http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers) and Cap's abilities tab (this is actually in the powers tab, not the abilities tab), again copied and pasted...

    "Captain America represented the pinnacle of human physical perfection. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but generally performed just below superhuman levelsfor most of his career. Captain America had a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he had metabolized had enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance."

    I emboldened the important parts in Cap's and Elektra's powers/abilities sheet, also, I underlined "had" in Cap's because I want to point out that it's, most likely, a typo and is meant to be "has". So you can hopefully see where and why most Marvel fans put little stock into the power grids and even Marvel's official "stance" on their characters' powers/abilities classification and instead go almost solely by what is displayed in the actual comics themselves, through feats and statements. Sorry if I sound angry or agitated, it's not directed at you at all, it's just frustrating, to say the least, that Marvel's on stance on their characters is so inconsistent and wishy-washy.

    I will say this about the handbooks, however. Their history and biography portions are usually spot on, it's just their power classifications and rankings that are all F.U.B.A.R.

    @muyjingo said:

    I'd like to try a different tactic though. I think you agreed with me above that unless a feat is recurring consistently, then it can be dismissed/explained away/fanwanked as PIS.

    I'm not sure what fanwank means, but for the rest, yes, if a feat is performed only once or twice (the exact number, I guess is open for each individual). Than it is PIS.

    @muyjingo said:

    So, I think it makes sense that if Cap is enhanced, or the peak of human potential, i.e. more physically capable than Batman, we should see evidence of this in most issues. At least every third issue, 4 times a year...does that sound reasonable?

    Um, yes? I think? I'm not quite sure of what you're asking. You want at least 4 examples of each physical feat (4 for strength, 4 for speed, etc. etc)?

    @muyjingo said:

    If so, can you give me maybe 10 issues over the last 3 years where he is shown doing something that would warrant him being called enhanced or shown to be more than human? Lifting things Daredevil or Batman couldn't lift, running faster than they could run, etc.

    I can, except, it was Brubaker who wrote Cap for the last ten years, and we already know what his stance is on Cap. In fact, my stance is based on Bru's stance, which is Cap being the peak of human potential/evolution, but I think we both agree on this, since Bru said it himself in an interview. So I can instead try to show scans or list issues for before AND including Bru's work of feats where cap is shown doing something more than what is listed. If you'd prefer. Again I'll just PM you with the feats.

    @muyjingo said:
    That's what it comes down to for me. If he is shown to be consistently at that level, i.e doing something enhanced or super frequently in his issues, then yes he is obviously at that level. Otherwise, no, he isn't, and he just has PIS feats like every character.

    Fair enough.

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    MuyJingo

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    #117  Edited By MuyJingo

    @tg1982 said:

    The only other peak human that I can think of, as stated by Marvel, is Black Panther, who took the HSH (He may actually be stronger now, I don't read his solo, just New Avengers). As for Black Widow, no way is she peak human, at least in terms of feats from the comics. All she really has, that I know of, is not aging.

    Hmm, quoting from the Marvel Wikia for what that is worth:

    Artificially Enhanced Physiology: Natasha has received the Red Room's variant of the Super-Soldier Serum. As a result, her physical and mental abilities had been enhanced slightly beyond human limits.

    As for other characters in Cap's category....I don't mean in terms of feats or what charcters say, I mean in terms of being classed Peak Human.

    For example, you can see at this link on the Marvel Wiki, there are many characters in the same category as Cap and BP. Black Widows is in there as well. I think BW is a good example...if we comb through her comics I'm sure we can find feats to argue that she is above human -- does that mean she should be considered so?

    As for the OHOTMU from 2011, the only thing that's updated, is the history portion of the handbook, detailing Cap's most recent adventures. The black inset is literally just pasted on from previous handbooks, currently, on the Marvel website his speed rating, is a 3, not a 2. As for the inconsistencies I've mention about power-grids, Marvel website, as an example, here is the Elektra power grid http://marvel.com/universe/Elektra also go to powers and it says "none" then go to abilities and it says (this is a direct copy and paste)...

    That's lazy if they haven't actually updated it, and yet sell the issue and even list the page as updated...

    "Elektra is an Olympic-level athlete and gymnast, possessing strength, speed, agility, reflexes, and endurance at the pinnacle of human performance. She is a superb hand-to-hand combatant and martial artist."

    Even the abilities is contradicting, she's an Olympic-level athlete and gymnast, but is more peak human than Cap's peak human? Yet being the "pinnacle of human performance" was literally invented by and for Captain America. Yet Elektra is stronger (4), waaaaaay faster (6), and even more durable (2) than Captain America. She is listed as having "no powers" but apparently has an energy projection of 2, WTF? Also for perspective, Quicksilver who possesses superspeed, is at a 7, so she is just under Quicksilver in speed, but has no powers, is equal to an Olympic-level athlete but is still superior to an Olympic-level athlete?

    I'm not sure I see a problem with the wording. From what I remember of the Marvel class system, Olympic is below Peak, or a subcategory of Peak. But the power grid is problematic. It's odd to because that is so very obviously out of wack....could it be due to any story where she may be superhuman for some reason? I don't read the comics so just wondering if there is an explanation.

    Now here is Cap's Marvel site page... http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers) and Cap's abilities tab (this is actually in the powers tab, not the abilities tab), again copied and pasted...

    "Captain America represented the pinnacle of human physical perfection. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but generally performed just below superhuman levelsfor most of his career. Captain America had a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he had metabolized had enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance."

    I emboldened the important parts in Cap's and Elektra's powers/abilities sheet, also, I underlined "had" in Cap's because I want to point out that it's, most likely, a typo and is meant to be "has". So you can hopefully see where and why most Marvel fans put little stock into the power grids and even Marvel's official "stance" on their characters' powers/abilities classification and instead go almost solely by what is displayed in the actual comics themselves, through feats and statements. Sorry if I sound angry or agitated, it's not directed at you at all, it's just frustrating, to say the least, that Marvel's on stance on their characters is so inconsistent and wishy-washy.

    Again, I see no problem with the wording. Peak is above Olympic but below Enhanced, so that seems accurate.

    I don't think you sound angry or agitated btw, very calm and collected, which I appreciate :)

    I will say this about the handbooks, however. Their history and biography portions are usually spot on, it's just their power classifications and rankings that are all F.U.B.A.R.

    FUBAR is a bit strong, isn't it? I mean, in the case of Elektra, yes, but most characters seem to be roughly accurate?

    I still think it makes sense to go by the official publication about the characters the company puts out. I mean, the Marvel Wikia and even the Marvel website seem to be taken from the official handbooks. I'm sure writers refer to these handbooks when writing characters. There can be mistakes, and errors in transfer when updating the website, but generally, they should be a reliable point of reference, no?

    Given all the inconsistencies in comics, doesn't it make sense to refer to a reference?

    I'm not sure what fanwank means, but for the rest, yes, if a feat is performed only once or twice (the exact number, I guess is open for each individual). Than it is PIS.

    Fanwank was a term I picked up on the buffy newsgroup many moons ago. It basically means when something doesn't make sense on screen/on the page, to come up with an explanation to make everything make sense and be consistent.

    An example may be that both times Cap exceeded 30mph, he had unknowingly been exposed to something that unknowingly enhanced his capabilities. I'm not saying that, it's just an example of what I'm talking about.

    So if Cap is officially classed as being able to run at 30mph, even if we say 40, is it fair to say the one time he ran at 50 and the other one time he ran at 60 are both PIS? I mean, we only know for certain it's happened twice, since they are the only times the speed was stated.

    Um, yes? I think? I'm not quite sure of what you're asking. You want at least 4 examples of each physical feat (4 for strength, 4 for speed, etc. etc)?

    Ahh, sorry for not being clear. I don't mean 4 examples of each physical feat, I mean if the book comes out 12 times a year, it should be easy to find 4 issues where he shows his "enhanced physicality" consistently.

    I mean there should be an issue from this month, from February, one from October for example that show him running at 60mph, or lifting 1500mph, or whatever.

    I can, except, it was Brubaker who wrote Cap for the last ten years, and we already know what his stance is on Cap. In fact, my stance is based on Bru's stance, which is Cap being the peak of human potential/evolution, but I think we both agree on this, since Bru said it himself in an interview. So I can instead try to show scans or list issues for before AND including Bru's work of feats where cap is shown doing something more than what is listed. If you'd prefer. Again I'll just PM you with the feats.

    I'm happy for and appreciate you PMing me the feats, but I don't mind if you take them from Brubakers run. His stance on the character doesn't necessarily mean he wrote him that way. in this entire thread and others, people tend to post the same few scans, which makes me think there isn't a large library of feats.

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    tg1982

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    @muyjingo said:

    Hmm, quoting from the Marvel Wikia for what that is worth:

    Artificially Enhanced Physiology: Natasha has received the Red Room's variant of the Super-Soldier Serum. As a result, her physical and mental abilities had been enhanced slightly beyond human limits.

    As for other characters in Cap's category....I don't mean in terms of feats or what charcters say, I mean in terms of being classed Peak Human.

    For example, you can see at this link on the Marvel Wiki, there are many characters in the same category as Cap and BP. Black Widows is in there as well. I think BW is a good example...if we comb through her comics I'm sure we can find feats to argue that she is above human -- does that mean she should be considered so?

    Oh, I see.

    I don't know how accurate those are, honestly. Believe me when I say, I wish they were 100% accurate, as it would only strengthen my case, since Cap has numerous consistent feats that outclass most of the "peak human" characters on that list. As for your last question (concerning BW), I'm sure there could be, but I'm fairly confident what ever feats there may be, they aren't consistent feats. I can honestly say, that in all the comics I've read about BW, I've never seen her perform any feat in any physical category that is equal to Cap, except maybe, and I stress maybe, agility.

    @muyjingo said:
    That's lazy if they haven't actually updated it, and yet sell the issue and even list the page as updated...

    Yep. I agree.

    @muyjingo said:

    I'm not sure I see a problem with the wording. From what I remember of the Marvel class system, Olympic is below Peak, or a subcategory of Peak. But the power grid is problematic. It's odd to because that is so very obviously out of wack....could it be due to any story where she may be superhuman for some reason? I don't read the comics so just wondering if there is an explanation.

    To me, the problem with the wording is, they say Elektra is Olympic-level, which as you say later on in this post, is just under peak human, then they say she is peak human. And yeah, the grid is way whack, I honestly don't know how they come up with their numbers when concerning certain characters. To my knowledge she does not have any super enhancements, and if she did then they should have said so in their powers, abilities or bio tabs.

    @muyjingo said:

    Again, I see no problem with the wording. Peak is above Olympic but below Enhanced, so that seems accurate.

    Yeah, but isn't enhanced under super? Peak then enhanced, then super? If so, they say it right there, "Steve performed just below superhuman level for most of his career..." i.e. enhanced. Again if I'm wrong and they consider enhanced to be super or eliminated enhanced all together, then that is on me. And for the record I don't really care if Steve is enhanced or peak human. As, I know you're well aware of my position on the matter, lol. It's just misleading. That and the power grids are all over the place with certain characters.

    @muyjingo said:

    I don't think you sound angry or agitated btw, very calm and collected, which I appreciate :)

    Cool. And I appreciate your calm and collected demeanor as well. :-)

    @muyjingo said:

    FUBAR is a bit strong, isn't it? I mean, in the case of Elektra, yes, but most characters seem to be roughly accurate?

    I, honestly, don't think it's too harsh, when it pertains to the power grids, which is what I think is F.U.B.A.R. not the whole handbook itself, I generally praise the history and biography portions of the handbook/website. But Elektra isn't the only one. Here is a list of a few characters that are way, way, waaaaaaay, whacked in terms of the marvel.com power grid, Punisher, http://marvel.com/universe/Punisher_%28Frank_Castle%29, again completely outclasses Cap in every category, Strength (6) (really?), Speed (5), Durability (5), Intelligence (5), and again energy projection (4) I know he uses guns, so if they count that as the reason that he has "energy projection" then Cap's durability should be at least a 6 due to his shield. Cyclops, who's only power is his optic beams, no physical powers, again outclasses Cap. http://marvel.com/universe/Cyclops_(Scott_Summers). Luke Cage, http://marvel.com/universe/Luke_Cage who, BTW, is a canon 25 tonner in terms of strength is weaker than the Punisher? Also his durability (his skin is literally bullet proof and he's taken hits and shots from explosions and other super strong beings such as Namor and didn't even get KO'd) has the same durability as Punisher, yeah. BTW, I'm only using Cap as the barometer because this thread is about him. That's just a few. I'm sure there are a lot more. So yeah, for the power grids, they are F.U.B.A.R.

    @muyjingo said:

    I still think it makes sense to go by the official publication about the characters the company puts out. I mean, the Marvel Wikia and even the Marvel website seem to be taken from the official handbooks. I'm sure writers refer to these handbooks when writing characters. There can be mistakes, and errors in transfer when updating the website, but generally, they should be a reliable point of reference, no?

    When the sites and books are as whacked out as the few examples I've given you, then, IMHO, no, they shouldn't be. When it's all said and done the comics themselves are canon, the OHOTMU and the websites are not, and it's a good thing too, or we would have Punisher get into a slugfest with Luke Cage and not only match blow for blow but most likely win based off of their respective grids (last part in jest). Keep in mind, my gripe is with the power grids, in particular, and if the handbooks and website has them and they are this whack, then they either need a better editorial job or just get rid of the grids all together. Just my opinion. End of grid rant. LOL.

    @muyjingo said:

    Given all the inconsistencies in comics, doesn't it make sense to refer to a reference?

    In the form of a guide sure, absolutely. But if the guide is way off like the power grids, then absolutely not. It should be used as a guide line, not a limitation, if that makes sense. It for example if a writer wants to show Cap lift more than 800lbs, but not ridiculously so, without some kind of explanation (i.e. he has temporary super strength, or something) then it shouldn't be a limit.

    @muyjingo said:

    Fanwank was a term I picked up on the buffy newsgroup many moons ago. It basically means when something doesn't make sense on screen/on the page, to come up with an explanation to make everything make sense and be consistent.

    An example may be that both times Cap exceeded 30mph, he had unknowingly been exposed to something that unknowingly enhanced his capabilities. I'm not saying that, it's just an example of what I'm talking about.

    Oh. That's what it means. So it's a way of saying "rationalizing". Right?

    @muyjingo said:

    So if Cap is officially classed as being able to run at 30mph, even if we say 40, is it fair to say the one time he ran at 50 and the other one time he ran at 60 are both PIS? I mean, we only know for certain it's happened twice, since they are the only times the speed was stated.

    Um, for me it's a bit tricky. I see PIS as something that is, basically, impossible for a character to do. Example Cap running at FTL speeds. But if it's within the realm of possibility, and can logically be explained, i.e. the situation was dire, as Cap was about to lose his best friend Bucky, who was more like a brother really, and adrenaline kicked in, then it's just a high-end feat (which is what I personally believe), not to be taken as an everyday occurrence kind of thing. Sorry if that's a copout answer, but I'm just being honest.

    @muyjingo said:

    Ahh, sorry for not being clear. I don't mean 4 examples of each physical feat, I mean if the book comes out 12 times a year, it should be easy to find 4 issues where he shows his "enhanced physicality" consistently.

    I mean there should be an issue from this month, from February, one from October for example that show him running at 60mph, or lifting 1500mph, or whatever.

    Hm, that might be tough, actually, as I don't have a whole lot of actual scans. I could give you issue numbers and or writers (depending). It'll take time, as I have to go through a lot of Cap comics, and a couple of omnibuses.

    @muyjingo said:

    I'm happy for and appreciate you PMing me the feats, but I don't mind if you take them from Brubakers run. His stance on the character doesn't necessarily mean he wrote him that way. in this entire thread and others, people tend to post the same few scans, which makes me think there isn't a large library of feats.

    Scan wise no, he was a bit like Tom Clancy in terms of writing, methodical and building into a great, IMO, payoff. I've already PMd you a few scans of his work. From the Winter Soldier arc. The I-beam and telephone pole scans were his I believe, the Winter Soldier bullet dodging feat. He does have Cap say on panel that Cap dodges bullets because he sees faster than they fly.

    No Caption Provided
    No Caption Provided

    Sorry, for some reason it posted the scan twice, and I can't delete it.

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    Alexander505

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    I have a question: what is the difference between peak human and enhanced? A peak human in the comics showed that can lift half ton, can be very agile, fast (as a car in middle speed), dodging bullets with easily, and beat superhumans class 2-3 tons. So, a enhanced what can do more than a peak human? How can be strong? He is class 1 tons?

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    tg1982

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    #120  Edited By tg1982

    I have a question: what is the difference between peak human and enhanced? A peak human in the comics showed that can lift half ton, can be very agile, fast (as a car in middle speed), dodging bullets with easily, and beat superhumans class 2-3 tons. So, a enhanced what can do more than a peak human? How can be strong? He is class 1 tons?

    In strict terms a peak human can lift a max of 800lbs, an enhanced human can lift between 800lbs-2tons. the scan in post# 101 actually does a pretty good job of showing the limitations and differences between the two. The problem I, and a lot of others have, however, is trying to apply it to the actual comics when many characters have feats that exceed the limits of what they can , supposedly, achieve.

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    Alexander505

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    #121  Edited By Alexander505

    For the rules Marvel and DC, a peak human can lift over his head max 800 lbs (362kg) and on bench press, they can lift, at least, half ton...easily (1000/1200 lbs). Yes, it's logical, Zydrunas Savickas, is the stronger man in the world, and can lift over his head max 490 lb (220kg), and can lift on bench press 600 lb (270kg). But, peak humans have showed to do more than this...Sometimes is PIS, but sometimes not. For me, a peak human is just under the official metahumans.

    Of course, about the speed in the run, a peak human can easily beat Usain Bolt.

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    Alexander505

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    Based on what was written, we can say that Cap, and even Batman can be considered metahumans in at least two areas: reflexes and stamina. Both have fought for days without showing fatigue, and both had instant reflexes in extreme situations.

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    cameron83

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    @muyjingo said:

    @end_boss said:

    @muyjingo: Cap does things that even Batman couldn't without the assistance of one of his gadgets. I love both characters, but Cap has the physical edge. And he's more than human.

    EDIT: A closer approximation of Batman and Cap would be Damian Wayne's character (the one in my profile pic). Whatever deal that Batman made with whoever it actually was that gave him extreme regenerative capabilities put him on par with Cap (ability-wise... He'd probably need Bruce's experience to really be equal).

    I'm not debating that, just confused and looking for more info. Maybe some examples of feats.

    If he is constantly described as peak human and not super human, that should make him on par with Batman. Batman pushed himself to the level that Cap is at, while Cap just got the serum...that was my understanding.

    So if Cap is more than human...i.e. more than Batman (who is a great metric I think, because he is the best a human can be physically) than he isn't just peak human, but is in fact enhanced...or a low level superhuman........right?

    Well.yeah.

    He is peak human,the utmost perfection,however I think that it's bull that they call him "peak human" being that he does feats that no human can do.No matter how perfect. I see him as enhanced (I actually remember reading it somewhere),not Superhuman,really.Just enhanced.He is physically superior to Batman,though.

    To be honest,sometimes he seems borderline low level.....

    But I can understand your confusion.

    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingAvengerMarvel/news/?a=48191

    Should give you an idea if the right images show up (that image with him and the kree is BS,btw)

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    #125  Edited By Alexander505

    @cameron83 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    So...Cap has been enhanced for reach the peak human perfection...just like Batman with his training. Words slightly different, but with the same notion. Nothing of new :D

    Cap and Batman are both peak human,correct?

    Yes, but in stamina and reflexes, both are showed to be more than peak human...metahumans level.

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    @cameron83 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    So...Cap has been enhanced for reach the peak human perfection...just like Batman with his training. Words slightly different, but with the same notion. Nothing of new :D

    Cap and Batman are both peak human,correct?

    Yes, but in stamina and reflexes, both are showed to be more than peak human...metahumans level.

    Can't really disagree there.They DO have consistent feats to prove that.

    @tg1982 said:

    @muyjingo said:

    OK, I can agree with that. However, that isn't an example of how the character is consistently portrayed, or his capabilities. I mean, lets say for example that Batman managed to hold his breath for 4 minutes under water (he can hold it for 3 minutes 15 seconds IIRC), that doesn't make him an enhanced human (in comic book terms), it's just that due to extenuating circumstances he was able to surpass what he is normally capable of. I can accept feats like that as not being PIS, but I don't accept that such feats become the measure of that characters capabilities.

    I understand what you're saying. This is where I think we differ, to a certain extent. I would consider and accept that feat to be a measure of their capabilities, but just the absolute limit of their abilities, but I wouldn't say they could do it all the time.

    I should have added the conceivability part to the post where I give my opinion on how to separate PIS from a high-end feat, but I honestly just forgot to add it. However I want to stress that even their conceivable high-end feats should still be taken with a grain of salt, because, as I'm sure you've already experienced, posters will try to use them as an "everyday" ability, especially when trying to make a point, especially in the battle boards.

    For me the bottom line is this... can Cap run at 60mph? Yes. Can he do it consistently, whenever he wants? No. Why? Because it is a high-end feat that is at the limit of what he is capable of. That is the limit of his speed. Can Batman hold his breath for 4:00 minutes? Yes. (I don't really follow Batman so, for the sake of argument, I'm using this as a true example). Is it something he can do every time? No. Why? Because it is a high-end feat that is at the limit of what he is capable of. That is the limit of his ability, in that respect. Basically for the borderline feats it really comes down to the individual and their own judgment. At least until the character has done it often enough to be considered "commonplace" which then raises the question what is an appropriate amount of times to be considered commonplace?

    @muyjingo said:
    Many fans in this thread are using cap running at 60mph to claim he can do that everytime and anytime. That doesn't make sense to me, as if he could, surely he would given all the times it would come in handy. Which means it was either PIS or there were extenuating circumstances. Given it only seems to have happened twice in the characters history, I'm leaning towards seeing it as PIS as opposed to something the character is occasionally capable of.

    Well, I don't think he can, whenever he wants to, but to be fair, how often do writers state the speed at which characters are running? You don't really see statements giving the speed at which they are running, but no I don't think he can run 60mph all the time, every time. Only when the situation is dire enough. And he has no other option.

    @muyjingo said:

    Well, this is an interesting point. Krauser99 has posted and clarified, it doesn't seem to be when he had super strength, soafter seeing the extra scans krauser99 provided, do you still say it is PIS?

    Honestly, I think it's too inconclusive due to lack of information. I'm leaning towards not PIS, because IMO, 1- it's not really a skyscraper, just the frame work, 2- He's not holding all of it, or even half of it or even a quarter of it. I do think that the feat is easy to sensationalize or take out of context, but in the end, there is just to little info to say how much weight he is actually supporting, it could be a hundred lbs or a million lbs. There is simply not enough information there to extrapolate to say one way or the other. So I would say it is a conceivable high-end feat, just not a very good one for the purposes of debate and discussion, due to the lack of information about the weight he is supporting.

    @muyjingo said:

    Batman has been shown to dodge bullets at a distance, not catch them at almost point blank. But, I understand your point. Peak human in the comic book world is different from what any hypothetical peak human could do in the real world. The question is then, is Captain America at the level of comic book peak human, or above? This thread is full of people arguing that he is at the very least enhanced human, if not super human. That is the opinion of k4tzm4n as well. The thing is, there is little to back it up, except for isolated feats like him running 60mph, hurting the hulk or holding up a skyscraper.

    Again, I can't speak for them, but I think Cap is above current Marvel peak humans, and is at the peak of what humanity would one day become. I feel that it's really up to individual interpretation as to if that is "enhanced" or "peak human". I'm not even sure, honestly, which side of the fence I'm on personally, as for the "enhanced" or "peak human". That's why I just go by the description Marvel uses, which is the "peak of human potential" and leave it at that.

    @muyjingo said:

    Brubaker is also of the opinion that "peak human" means peak of human potential, and I don't know if that's an opinion writers before him shared. The Marvel website for example lists his peak speed as being about 35mph. Which is a better source? What speed has he most consistently been showing capable of running at?

    I think there have been many writers before Brubaker who were of the same mind, he's not the first one to use the "peak of human potential" quote, as far as I know he is the first one to go public with it though. Even Stan Lee, I think is of like mind. But unfortunately Brubaker is the only one that I know of that ever came out and said it. Even the Marvel website states "Captain America represented the pinnacle of human physical perfection. He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels, but generally performed just below superhuman levels for most of his career." In general, most people go by the writers and actual comics over the power levels of the website and handbooks, because they do tend to be inaccurate.

    @muyjingo said:

    When I have tried searching this, there are many threads on this forum alone, such as "Cap is Superhuman why doesn't Marvel admit it". They seem to be accepting all feats that I look at as PIS as a true example of the characters capabilities. It's funny you mention Civil War, because that's the only Marvel event I have read and is the most Captain America I've read. I don't recall him being listed as enhanced, although I wasn't aware of this discrepancy so wasn't looking out for it.

    Those usually tend to be over enthusiastic fans, or simply posters trying to start a troll thread, IMO. As for the Civil War "enhanced" thing. I might have been in one of the tie-in books and not the actual book itself. I'm unsure.

    @muyjingo said:

    If he is indeed the peak of what humanity may one day become, then I don't have an issue with him being called an enhanced human. That's just semantics to me.

    The problem to me is however that peak human, without any added explanation should be interrupted as...essentially Batman. The most physically fit and capable that a human could be. The difference is one came from obsessively working out, and the other from a serum. From what I've been reading, despite what Brubaker said, Captain America should essentially be equivalent to Batman with the shield and a different set of training, healing factor and personality differences aside. I'm only talking about the "peak human" aspect here.

    The thing with Brubaker is that he may be only one writer, but he isn't the only writer or the first writer to throw int the "peak of human potential" quote for Cap while other characters in Marvel are "peak human", why the difference? It has to be for some reason. Also Brubaker wrote Cap for (around) ten years, so that's ten years of his interpretation of Cap. So his view shouldn't be discounted so easily. That years and years of feats, stories, etc, etc. There are many scans that display cap as being "enhanced" for example the "shield through a truck" feat, Cap stopping a falling elevator, closing missile silo doors, using his shield to wreck Iron Man's armor, catching a flying missile, jumping onto a two story building's roof, leaping on to a jet from the Shield Helicarrier, breaking the canopy of said jet and holding on while the jet flies around. Punching Wolverine (who weighs over 300lbs, due to adamantium) several feet and through two car doors, dodging bullets after they've been fired, being injured breaks through a steel door a foot thick, and many of these aren't even from Brubaker's run. So there are many writers who seem to write him in that manner. I don't know much about Batman, except from the movies, so I don't know if these are thing he has done or is capable of.

    @muyjingo said:
    OK, I can agree with you here. So far in researching this issue, the only writer I've found who gives a definitive answer is Brubaker. Can you references some other writers speaking on the issue?

    Likewise, can you give some examples of him being consistently portrayed as more than comic book peak human? I don't even want scans or issue numbers, although that would be great. Just any stuff that you remember that you don't consider PIS.

    I'm genuinely interested in this discussion. Although I am surprised I'm so outnumbered in this thread when other threads I've found are pretty evenly divided.

    Yeah, no prob. I've got plenty of scans, but it'll take me some time. I'll just PM them to you, so this thread doesn't get side tracked into an appreciation thread.

    @muyjingo said:

    Just to clarify, as succinctly as possible, it is your interpretation that cap was supporting most of the weight of the demolished skyscraper?

    In my opinion, no way in heck was Cap supporting most of the wait, half of the weight, or even a third of the weight. Maybe a quarter of the weight, even then I'm not sure, the pic doesn't lend itself to too much information. It's impossible to know for sure without any kind of speculation, how much he was supporting. But no he was not supporting most of the weight. Just my opinion though.

    I like your explanation for cap.

    Also for Peak Human,although I don't know if that was you that said him being the utmost perfection/next step.Or JUST JUST JUST under enhanced/superhuman.

    Anyway,can you PM me the feats if you can?

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    tg1982

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    #127  Edited By tg1982

    @cameron83:

    Yeah, I think that, when concerning Cap, his "peak human" is the peak of human potential on an evolutionary scale. It's been stated many times, Cap is the next step in human evolution. But I'm unsure if that technical means enhanced or is just more peak human than other peak humans. Also concerning an earlier post you made,

    @cameron83 said:

    Well.yeah.

    He is peak human,the utmost perfection,however I think that it's bull that they call him "peak human" being that he does feats that no human can do.No matter how perfect. I see him as enhanced (I actually remember reading it somewhere),not Superhuman,really.Just enhanced.He is physically superior to Batman,though.

    To be honest,sometimes he seems borderline low level.....

    But I can understand your confusion.

    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingAvengerMarvel/news/?a=48191

    Should give you an idea if the right images show up (that image with him and the kree is BS,btw)

    The bold is what I'm referring to, I heard, in Civil War that on a SHIELD computer it has him listed as enhanced.

    As for scans, no problem... :-)

    Also why is Cap's fighting the Kree scan BS?

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    w0nd

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    I am considering him enhanced for these reasons

    he can't get drunk,

    He was frozen in a block of ice for how long without dying?

    Even a peak human would be effected by those two things.

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    wolverine1610

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    he's as strong, durable, fast, and mentally competent as a human can be without being considered superhuman thanks to the serum

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    Alexander505

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    Is very probable that Cap, sometime, thanks the increase of his adrenaline, can surpass his standard limits.

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    cameron83

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    #131  Edited By cameron83

    Is very probable that Cap, sometime, thanks the increase of his adrenaline, can surpass his standard limits.

    That's also what I think sometimes

    @tg1982 said:

    @cameron83:

    Yeah, I think that, when concerning Cap, his "peak human" is the peak of human potential on an evolutionary scale. It's been stated many times, Cap is the next step in human evolution. But I'm unsure if that technical means enhanced or is just more peak human than other peak humans. Also concerning an earlier post you made,

    @cameron83 said:

    Well.yeah.

    He is peak human,the utmost perfection,however I think that it's bull that they call him "peak human" being that he does feats that no human can do.No matter how perfect. I see him as enhanced (I actually remember reading it somewhere),not Superhuman,really.Just enhanced.He is physically superior to Batman,though.

    To be honest,sometimes he seems borderline low level.....

    But I can understand your confusion.

    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingAvengerMarvel/news/?a=48191

    Should give you an idea if the right images show up (that image with him and the kree is BS,btw)

    The bold is what I'm referring to, I heard, in Civil War that on a SHIELD computer it has him listed as enhanced.

    As for scans, no problem... :-)

    Also why is Cap's fighting the Kree scan BS?

    Well it just doesn't really seem like he is capable of doing that,THEN AGAIN,I could be horribly wrong.

    I really don't know the physical level of that Kree.I assumed that he was able to go toe-to-toe with people like 10 tonners,but I just assumed.....

    So it may NOT be BS,after all :)

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    @tg1982 said:

    I don't know how accurate those are, honestly. Believe me when I say, I wish they were 100% accurate, as it would only strengthen my case, since Cap has numerous consistent feats that outclass most of the "peak human" characters on that list. As for your last question (concerning BW), I'm sure there could be, but I'm fairly confident what ever feats there may be, they aren't consistent feats. I can honestly say, that in all the comics I've read about BW, I've never seen her perform any feat in any physical category that is equal to Cap, except maybe, and I stress maybe, agility.

    I guess I find that really surprising, if I understand you correctly.

    You're saying Cap regularly and consistent physically surpasses people in the same official category as him? There is no other similarly classed human, aside from BP, who has done similar feats to him? Daredevil, Black Widow, Isn't Deadpool peak as far as strength goes?

    You're saying none of these characters have (PIS?) feats that could be used to argue they were enhanced human/at a similar level to Cap?

    To me, the problem with the wording is, they say Elektra is Olympic-level, which as you say later on in this post, is just under peak human, then they say she is peak human. And yeah, the grid is way whack, I honestly don't know how they come up with their numbers when concerning certain characters. To my knowledge she does not have any super enhancements, and if she did then they should have said so in their powers, abilities or bio tabs.

    Fair point....The Elektra entry is horrible.

    Yeah, but isn't enhanced under super? Peak then enhanced, then super? If so, they say it right there, "Steve performed just below superhuman level for most of his career..." i.e. enhanced. Again if I'm wrong and they consider enhanced to be super or eliminated enhanced all together, then that is on me. And for the record I don't really care if Steve is enhanced or peak human. As, I know you're well aware of my position on the matter, lol. It's just misleading. That and the power grids are all over the place with certain characters.

    The website seems contradictory and out dated. I can't say the same for the official handbooks, or the Marvel Wikia which takes it's sources from the handbooks, interviews, comics themselves, a variety of sources.

    I, honestly, don't think it's too harsh, when it pertains to the power grids, which is what I think is F.U.B.A.R. not the whole handbook itself, I generally praise the history and biography portions of the handbook/website. But Elektra isn't the only one. Here is a list of a few characters that are way, way, waaaaaaay, whacked in terms of the marvel.com power grid, Punisher, http://marvel.com/universe/Punisher_%28Frank_Castle%29, again completely outclasses Cap in every category, Strength (6) (really?), Speed (5), Durability (5), Intelligence (5), and again energy projection (4) I know he uses guns, so if they count that as the reason that he has "energy projection" then Cap's durability should be at least a 6 due to his shield. Cyclops, who's only power is his optic beams, no physical powers, again outclasses Cap. http://marvel.com/universe/Cyclops_(Scott_Summers). Luke Cage, http://marvel.com/universe/Luke_Cage who, BTW, is a canon 25 tonner in terms of strength is weaker than the Punisher? Also his durability (his skin is literally bullet proof and he's taken hits and shots from explosions and other super strong beings such as Namor and didn't even get KO'd) has the same durability as Punisher, yeah. BTW, I'm only using Cap as the barometer because this thread is about him. That's just a few. I'm sure there are a lot more. So yeah, for the power grids, they are F.U.B.A.R.

    I've noticed a big difference between the website, and the handbooks.

    The Marvel Wikia on the other hand, is taken from the handbooks. I have no idea where the website gets its info.

    Since I was arguing for the handbooks, I'd ask we stick to the handbook entries, since I agree the website is completely bunk.

    The handbooks, entries available on the Marvel Wikia, show that Cap is classed at the same level for everything as Frank except except durability, where he is rated 3 instead of 2. Keep in mind, this is a 1 - 7 scale so it isn't saying Cap is equal to Frank, just that they both fall within the that classification relative to other, more powerful characters.

    Cyclops is rated less than Cap for everything except energy projection.

    Luke Cage outclasses Cyclops, Cap and Frank in terms of strength and durability.

    http://marvel.wikia.com/Frank_Castle_(Earth-616)#Abilities
    http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America_(Steven_Rogers)#Abilities
    http://marvel.wikia.com/Scott_Summers_(Earth-616)#Abilities
    http://marvel.wikia.com/Luke_Cage_(Earth-616)#Abilities

    These powergrids are the same from the most recent handbooks, I can upload scans if you like. I think you would agree they are consistent?

    Keep in mind, my gripe is with the power grids, in particular, and if the handbooks and website has them and they are this whack, then they either need a better editorial job or just get rid of the grids all together. Just my opinion. End of grid rant. LOL.

    I agree with you, but the handbooks don't have anywhere near the problems the website has. The handbooks seem consistent and a good representation.

    In the form of a guide sure, absolutely. But if the guide is way off like the power grids, then absolutely not. It should be used as a guide line, not a limitation, if that makes sense. It for example if a writer wants to show Cap lift more than 800lbs, but not ridiculously so, without some kind of explanation (i.e. he has temporary super strength, or something) then it shouldn't be a limit.

    If it turns out the handbooks are consistent?

    Keep in mind, as far as lifting more than 800lbs..that is how much Cap can lift above his head, with arms outstretched. As that is how Marvel measures strength. Lifting that way, you are limited to about 2/3rds of the amount you can bench. There is a scan of Captain benching 1100lbs, which would seem in line with his official strength level.

    Oh. That's what it means. So it's a way of saying "rationalizing". Right?

    Sure, it's rationalize with a specific context and connotation. I should have just said rationalize, but am used to using fanwank. Besides, now you know that term :)

    Um, for me it's a bit tricky. I see PIS as something that is, basically, impossible for a character to do. Example Cap running at FTL speeds. But if it's within the realm of possibility, and can logically be explained, i.e. the situation was dire, as Cap was about to lose his best friend Bucky, who was more like a brother really, and adrenaline kicked in, then it's just a high-end feat (which is what I personally believe), not to be taken as an everyday occurrence kind of thing. Sorry if that's a copout answer, but I'm just being honest.

    No, that's cool. I don't have a problem with stuff like that really. We agree however it isn't the character is capable of often, indeed only very rarely.

    Hm, that might be tough, actually, as I don't have a whole lot of actual scans. I could give you issue numbers and or writers (depending). It'll take time, as I have to go through a lot of Cap comics, and a couple of omnibuses.

    Issue numbers is perfect. If I see consistent evidence of him doing more than what he is officially listed as being capable of, I will concede immediately. The cherrypicked (I don't mean that in any negative way) feats that I've seen just don't do it for me...it's about consistency, not the feats themselves.

    Scan wise no, he was a bit like Tom Clancy in terms of writing, methodical and building into a great, IMO, payoff. I've already PMd you a few scans of his work. From the Winter Soldier arc. The I-beam and telephone pole scans were his I believe, the Winter Soldier bullet dodging feat. He does have Cap say on panel that Cap dodges bullets because he sees faster than they fly.

    I'm familiar with the "seeing faster" quote, but again, it's about consistency. If I'm not mistaken, that is the only time in all of Cap comics that it has been stated. So...one writer saying that doesn't make it so.

    It's kind of like the fact that there is an issue of Superman, where one foolish writer wrote him as being able to see to the end of the universe. It doesn't make it so, no other writers ever mentioned it, it doesn't make sense...it's just something you have to ignore.

    It's not the same with Cap because his seeing faster isn't as ridiculous, but my point is it's not an established aspect of the character, IMO.

    As for the I-Beam and telephone pole scans...as above, he can lift more than 800lbs if it isn't directly above his head. I'm not sure, but I think this is a pretty basic aspect of weightlifting. So it figures he can lift more, and everything he lifts is still within the range of what would be considered peak.

    The elevator, if I'm not mistaken he isn't lifting,,,but using his shield as a brake?

    Throwing Big Bertha...still a peak feat. He can bench 1100lbs as peak, so that isn't surprising.

    The telephone pole being between 900 and 1000lbs, still within peak classification.

    I don't know about the I beam since it is hard to determine the weight....but I would think it weighs around 1200lbs at the most, which should be close to the upper limit of his strength as a peak human.

    So, the scans actually support his classification from what I can see.

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    Alexander505

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    #133  Edited By Alexander505

    In my opinion, the peak humans can lift more than 800 lbs (lift over the head, I mean, it's different than do it on bench press)...If they can lift (easily) on bench press at least 1000-1200 lbs (Batman has proved to lift on bench press, approximately 1400 lbs) as routine exercise, means that they can lift also 900 lbs...for sure.

    IMHO, DC / Marvel have to change the limit of the physical strength of peak humans, otherwise, we must consider Cap / Batman, metahumans in physical strength.

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    tg1982

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    #134  Edited By tg1982

    Is very probable that Cap, sometime, thanks the increase of his adrenaline, can surpass his standard limits.

    Yeah, I've been saying this as well. It's stated that Cap's physiology is also increased to peak human efficiency, so that would mean that his adrenal glands would also be more efficient as well, making him more likely to perform incredible feats, than a normal or another "peak human" in the Marvel Universe.

    Well it just doesn't really seem like he is capable of doing that,THEN AGAIN,I could be horribly wrong.

    I really don't know the physical level of that Kree.I assumed that he was able to go toe-to-toe with people like 10 tonners,but I just assumed.....

    So it may NOT be BS,after all :)

    Well the Kree are stronger than humans, but how strong I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you've read that arc, but it was called "Live Kree or Die" in that particular issue the Kree sent humans into a gas chamber and killed them, that particular Kree hit Cap through a wall and into the chamber, when Cap saw the bodies and the obvious similarity to the Holocaust he, for obvious reasons, got super pissed. And that is when this scan happened. So there are a few factors to consider here, 1) Cap, now being pissed, wasn't holding back like he would against a human, and going "for the kill" and 2) his adrenaline kicked in and he was able to do it that way, or 3) Both 1 and 2. It's just my opinion though.

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    @tg1982 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    Is very probable that Cap, sometime, thanks the increase of his adrenaline, can surpass his standard limits.

    Yeah, I've been saying this as well. It's stated that Cap's physiology is also increased to peak human efficiency, so that would mean that his adrenal glands would also be more efficient as well, making him more likely to perform incredible feats, than a normal or another "peak human" in the Marvel Universe.

    @cameron83 said:

    Well it just doesn't really seem like he is capable of doing that,THEN AGAIN,I could be horribly wrong.

    I really don't know the physical level of that Kree.I assumed that he was able to go toe-to-toe with people like 10 tonners,but I just assumed.....

    So it may NOT be BS,after all :)

    Well the Kree are stronger than humans, but how strong I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you've read that arc, but it was called "Live Kree or Die" in that particular issue the Kree sent humans into a gas chamber and killed them, that particular Kree hit Cap through a wall and into the chamber, when Cap saw the bodies and the obvious similarity to the Holocaust he, for obvious reasons, got super pissed. And that is when this scan happened. So there are a few factors to consider here, 1) Cap, now being pissed, wasn't holding back like he would against a human, and going "for the kill" and 2) his adrenaline kicked in and he was able to do it that way, or 3) Both 1 and 2. It's just my opinion though.

    Hm.Well I change my opinion....anyway,are you familiar with Namor?

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    @muyjingo said:

    I guess I find that really surprising, if I understand you correctly.

    You're saying Cap regularly and consistent physically surpasses people in the same official category as him? There is no other similarly classed human, aside from BP, who has done similar feats to him? Daredevil, Black Widow, Isn't Deadpool peak as far as strength goes?

    Daredevil, as some agility feats that are equal to or actually surpasses Captain America, but I believe that he is enhanced in terms of agility due to his radar sense, I haven't read DD in a long time so I am unsure of this, honestly. Black Widow, I will say no chance she is on par with Cap in the physicality category, at least not feat wise. Deadpool, I believe, is enhanced like Wolverine, but am unsure, since I don't follow him either.

    @muyjingo said:

    You're saying none of these characters have (PIS?) feats that could be used to argue they were enhanced human/at a similar level to Cap?

    To my knowledge, the only character who has feats equal to or surpassing Cap, is Daredevil, and that is just agility, however, as I've said I haven't read him in a while, so now things may be different, and I believe his radar sense my be a factor for his agility.

    @muyjingo said:

    The website seems contradictory and out dated. I can't say the same for the official handbooks, or the Marvel Wikia which takes it's sources from the handbooks, interviews, comics themselves, a variety of sources.

    Fair enough, I'll have to give the marvel wiki a closer look through then. If it's as accurate as you say then I may use that as a guideline for characters that I have a limited knowledge on.

    @muyjingo said:

    I've noticed a big difference between the website, and the handbooks.

    The Marvel Wikia on the other hand, is taken from the handbooks. I have no idea where the website gets its info.

    Since I was arguing for the handbooks, I'd ask we stick to the handbook entries, since I agree the website is completely bunk.

    The handbooks, entries available on the Marvel Wikia, show that Cap is classed at the same level for everything as Frank except except durability, where he is rated 3 instead of 2. Keep in mind, this is a 1 - 7 scale so it isn't saying Cap is equal to Frank, just that they both fall within the that classification relative to other, more powerful characters.

    Cyclops is rated less than Cap for everything except energy projection.

    Luke Cage outclasses Cyclops, Cap and Frank in terms of strength and durability.

    http://marvel.wikia.com/Frank_Castle_(Earth-616)#Abilities

    http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America_(Steven_Rogers)#Abilities

    http://marvel.wikia.com/Scott_Summers_(Earth-616)#Abilities

    http://marvel.wikia.com/Luke_Cage_(Earth-616)#Abilities

    These powergrids are the same from the most recent handbooks, I can upload scans if you like. I think you would agree they are consistent?

    If you could. I would like, very much, for scans from the most recent handbooks, just for my own collection, not as any proof, since you have been cordial and respectful as well as logical, I see no reason to distrust you.

    The assessment you gave for Punisher, Cage, Cyclops, and Captain America seem pretty good, as far as placement. I would say that Cap, physically is still better than Punisher in all categories, but as you've said it's just that they fall within the same range, and not that they as necessarily equal in stats, it seems okay to me.

    And, just to be clear, my gripe/rant was directed almost solely at the Marvel website, while I still wouldn't take the handbooks as gospel, they do seem to be a good guideline for most of the characters in the MU. But I believe, and probably always will believe, that the Handbooks, Wikis, etc. etc. should be secondary to the actual comics themselves, it's just my opinion.

    @muyjingo said:

    I agree with you, but the handbooks don't have anywhere near the problems the website has. The handbooks seem consistent and a good representation.

    Fair enough.

    @muyjingo said:
    If it turns out the handbooks are consistent?

    Then that's great. But I believe that the comics should guide the handbooks, not the other way around. The comics are the things that get canonized, therefore I believe they should hold precedence over the handbooks. Again, this is just my opinion.

    @muyjingo said:

    Keep in mind, as far as lifting more than 800lbs..that is how much Cap can lift above his head, with arms outstretched. As that is how Marvel measures strength. Lifting that way, you are limited to about 2/3rds of the amount you can bench. There is a scan of Captain benching 1100lbs, which would seem in line with his official strength level.

    Oh. Okay. I've never seen it stated as such, so I was unaware as to the exact specification.

    @muyjingo said:

    Sure, it's rationalize with a specific context and connotation. I should have just said rationalize, but am used to using fanwank. Besides, now you know that term :)

    LOL. Yes, I know the term now. :-)

    @muyjingo said:

    No, that's cool. I don't have a problem with stuff like that really. We agree however it isn't the character is capable of often, indeed only very rarely.

    Yeah.

    @muyjingo said:

    Issue numbers is perfect. If I see consistent evidence of him doing more than what he is officially listed as being capable of, I will concede immediately. The cherrypicked (I don't mean that in any negative way) feats that I've seen just don't do it for me...it's about consistency, not the feats themselves.

    Okay. Cool, it'll take some time though, I have a LOT of Cap comics to go through. LOL

    @muyjingo said:

    I'm familiar with the "seeing faster" quote, but again, it's about consistency. If I'm not mistaken, that is the only time in all of Cap comics that it has been stated. So...one writer saying that doesn't make it so.

    @muyjingo said:
    It's not the same with Cap because his seeing faster isn't as ridiculous, but my point is it's not an established aspect of the character, IMO.

    To me it is established. It may have only been said once, but it's been shown countless times. Basically it's Cap explaining all of the bullet dodging feats he's ever done, of which there is a lot.

    @muyjingo said:

    As for the I-Beam and telephone pole scans...as above, he can lift more than 800lbs if it isn't directly above his head. I'm not sure, but I think this is a pretty basic aspect of weightlifting. So it figures he can lift more, and everything he lifts is still within the range of what would be considered peak.

    The elevator, if I'm not mistaken he isn't lifting,,,but using his shield as a brake?

    Throwing Big Bertha...still a peak feat. He can bench 1100lbs as peak, so that isn't surprising.

    The telephone pole being between 900 and 1000lbs, still within peak classification.

    I don't know about the I beam since it is hard to determine the weight....but I would think it weighs around 1200lbs at the most, which should be close to the upper limit of his strength as a peak human.

    So, the scans actually support his classification from what I can see.

    I notice you're talking about "ranges", what is the MAX weight for a peak human? I thought it was 800lbs.

    Fair enough, but if he can effortlessly lift more than 800lbs shoulder high, as with the I-beam, and telephone pole, then I think he could lift it over his head, but I'm not a weight lifter so I' don't know for sure.

    For the elevator, fair enough.

    As for Big Bertha, he didn't bench press her, though. He threw her several yards, over his head. Which I would say exceeds the 800lbs max.

    For the telephone pole. If the max weight a peak human can lift is 800lbs, then the telephone pole, would exceed the peak human classification right? I though the MAX a peak human could lift is 800lbs.

    For the I-beam. Again I thought the max weight for a peak human was 800lbs?

    @muyjingo said:

    So, the scans actually support his classification from what I can see.

    I can't really respond to this, until I have the max weight a peak human can lift, as I've always thought the MAX was 800lbs. If it is 800lbs max then, I would have to say that these scans actually show him exceeding peak human. If there is a range between 800lbs and say 1000lbs, then that changes everything.

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    Raw_Material

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    He's peak human level, but with his courage and toughness combined he could reach enhanced levels. He's been brutally injured multiple times before, almost to his death at some points, and have risen above. His durability and prowess with his strikes and shield are what makes him to be "superhuman" in a way. The Cap's dealt with meta humans before and have come up on top almost every time.

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    krauser99

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    #138  Edited By krauser99
    No Caption Provided
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    Super Soldier.

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    Alexander505

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    Yes, indeed as I said, Cap can be considered metahuman in stamina and reflexes.

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    krauser99

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    Yeah that wound would kill Bruce instantly. His healing/recovery is super in comparison to Batman along with his speed, durability, and strength.

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    tg1982

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    Hm.Well I change my opinion....anyway,are you familiar with Namor?

    I'm a little familiar with Namor.

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    @tg1982 said:

    Daredevil, as some agility feats that are equal to or actually surpasses Captain America, but I believe that he is enhanced in terms of agility due to his radar sense, I haven't read DD in a long time so I am unsure of this, honestly. Black Widow, I will say no chance she is on par with Cap in the physicality category, at least not feat wise. Deadpool, I believe, is enhanced like Wolverine, but am unsure, since I don't follow him either.

    To my knowledge, the only character who has feats equal to or surpassing Cap, is Daredevil, and that is just agility, however, as I've said I haven't read him in a while, so now things may be different, and I believe his radar sense my be a factor for his agility.

    Well, this is surprising. Black Widow for example has basically the same origin story as Cap, and is meant to be his physical equal. I find it surprising she doesn't have similar feats. Likewise, I'm surprised there are not PIS feats for the other characters classed as peak human. I kind of doubt there aren't, but I'm not about to go and research it. I don't think it's a relevant point any longer really anyway.

    If you could. I would like, very much, for scans from the most recent handbooks, just for my own collection, not as any proof, since you have been cordial and respectful as well as logical, I see no reason to distrust you.

    The assessment you gave for Punisher, Cage, Cyclops, and Captain America seem pretty good, as far as placement. I would say that Cap, physically is still better than Punisher in all categories, but as you've said it's just that they fall within the same range, and not that they as necessarily equal in stats, it seems okay to me.

    And, just to be clear, my gripe/rant was directed almost solely at the Marvel website, while I still wouldn't take the handbooks as gospel, they do seem to be a good guideline for most of the characters in the MU. But I believe, and probably always will believe, that the Handbooks, Wikis, etc. etc. should be secondary to the actual comics themselves, it's just my opinion.

    Sure, I'll just need some time to get the scans. Maybe a week or so, but I'll paste them in here as soon as I get them.

    I would defer to the handbooks to settle if something was PIS or not. If a character is shown as doing something that far exceeds his power, then the handbooks can maybe be a guide to seeing if it is acceptable or not. But, this is kind of a personal preference thing I guess.

    Then that's great. But I believe that the comics should guide the handbooks, not the other way around. The comics are the things that get canonized, therefore I believe they should hold precedence over the handbooks. Again, this is just my opinion.

    Well, just to point out the handbooks are indeed canon...it's kind of the point of them.

    Okay. Cool, it'll take some time though, I have a LOT of Cap comics to go through. LOL

    No problems, and thankyou! I also think with as much as this is discussed, this will be one of the better threads for people to reference.

    To me it is established. It may have only been said once, but it's been shown countless times. Basically it's Cap explaining all of the bullet dodging feats he's ever done, of which there is a lot.

    Meh. That's fine if you want to take it that way. We can agree to disagree on that point. For me, one writer adding in one line isn't sufficient to change a character in that fashion.

    I notice you're talking about "ranges", what is the MAX weight for a peak human? I thought it was 800lbs.

    Well as above, the Marvel strength scale is based on how much you can lift over your head, arms straight. That's generally about 2/3rd of what you can bench, and certainly less then you can lift in other positions/situations. It's why the scan of him benching 1100lbs actually supports him being peak, and not enhanced.

    Fair enough, but if he can effortlessly lift more than 800lbs shoulder high, as with the I-beam, and telephone pole, then I think he could lift it over his head, but I'm not a weight lifter so I' don't know for sure.

    For the elevator, fair enough.

    As for Big Bertha, he didn't bench press her, though. He threw her several yards, over his head. Which I would say exceeds the 800lbs max.

    For the telephone pole. If the max weight a peak human can lift is 800lbs, then the telephone pole, would exceed the peak human classification right? I though the MAX a peak human could lift is 800lbs.

    For the I-beam. Again I thought the max weight for a peak human was 800lbs?

    My point was that all of these things, as I laid out above, are within the peak limit. Nothing seemed to be more than 1200 pounds, which is the most a peak human should be able to bench in the MU.

    I can't really respond to this, until I have the max weight a peak human can lift, as I've always thought the MAX was 800lbs. If it is 800lbs max then, I would have to say that these scans actually show him exceeding peak human. If there is a range between 800lbs and say 1000lbs, then that changes everything.

    Right, the Marvel Strength Scale is limited to how much a character can lift with arms outstretched above their head. Which is generally about 2/3rds of how much they can bench. Since all the scans show him dealing with stuff under 1200lbs, they seem to be supporting him as being peak, and not anything more than that.

    Essentially, the upper limit for what a peak character can bench should be1200lbs, based on them lifting 800lbs straight above their heads.

    Indeed, this does change everything, because it would mean the only things that could be used to argue that he is enhanced are his healing (mainly due to surviving in ice) and maybe the seeing faster aspect.

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    Alexander505

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    Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

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    @muyjingo said:

    Well, this is surprising. Black Widow for example has basically the same origin story as Cap, and is meant to be his physical equal. I find it surprising she doesn't have similar feats. Likewise, I'm surprised there are not PIS feats for the other characters classed as peak human. I kind of doubt there aren't, but I'm not about to go and research it. I don't think it's a relevant point any longer really anyway.

    In all fairness, BW, was never really a popular character, at least not as popular as Captain America, so there isn't as many feats for her. Certainly not as many feats to show she is equal to Cap. But as you say, it's not really all that relevant to this topic.

    @muyjingo said:

    Sure, I'll just need some time to get the scans. Maybe a week or so, but I'll paste them in here as soon as I get them.

    Cool. I appreciate it. :-)

    @muyjingo said:

    I would defer to the handbooks to settle if something was PIS or not. If a character is shown as doing something that far exceeds his power, then the handbooks can maybe be a guide to seeing if it is acceptable or not. But, this is kind of a personal preference thing I guess.

    Fair enough.

    @muyjingo said:

    Well, just to point out the handbooks are indeed canon...it's kind of the point of them.

    Oh, okay. I was an aware of that. However, I personally still hold the comics over the handbooks, etc. etc. Again, it's just my preference.

    @muyjingo said:

    No problems, and thankyou! I also think with as much as this is discussed, this will be one of the better threads for people to reference.

    Yeah, especially since this isn't turning into a childish flame war or anything, maybe people will also take it as a way for two people, with differing opinions, to discuss and talk about a topic with out "yelling" and insulting each other. Sadly, that seems all too common nowadays.

    @muyjingo said:

    Meh. That's fine if you want to take it that way. We can agree to disagree on that point. For me, one writer adding in one line isn't sufficient to change a character in that fashion.

    Fair enough. But, I would also like to add and/or clarify, about my opinion, that I don't really think it changes the character (in this case Cap) since, to me it's not really changing anything, but rather explaining how he has been able to do feats, in this case bullet dodging, that he has consistently been doing for years. But I also understand your point of view on it.

    @muyjingo said:

    Well as above, the Marvel strength scale is based on how much you can lift over your head, arms straight. That's generally about 2/3rd of what you can bench, and certainly less then you can lift in other positions/situations. It's why the scan of him benching 1100lbs actually supports him being peak, and not enhanced.

    My point was that all of these things, as I laid out above, are within the peak limit. Nothing seemed to be more than 1200 pounds, which is the most a peak human should be able to bench in the MU.

    Okay. I except that for the bench pressing scan, but the other scans I've shown, he was not bench pressing, but lifting and many of them were significantly over 800lbs. and while admittedly he didn't lift them over his head the fact that he lifted them (the least of which was a hundred pounds over 800lbs) shoulder high with no visible strain would lend itself to evidence that he could lift over 800lbs above his head, I would think. If the absolute max is 800lbs, then I would think he wouldn't bee able to lift that much without any sign of strain. I admit this is my opinion, though.

    @muyjingo said:

    Indeed, this does change everything, because it would mean the only things that could be used to argue that he is enhanced are his healing (mainly due to surviving in ice) and maybe the seeing faster aspect.

    I would also add in his reflexes as well, as it is stated in his bio, that he has near instantaneous reflexive speed. Also when concerning his healing, he is also immune to all terrestrial diseases, and alcohol and drugs. (interesting note, however, in the 80's Steve was caught in a drug lab explosion, and the drug did in fact effect him. I'm unsure of the actual circumstances involving the drug, as I've never read the story arc "Streets of Poison"). But yeah if the only proof that is acceptable is him literally lifting more than 800lbs over his head then, I admit I don't have any proof, just the weight of the scans I've already shown and my reasoning behind why I think it's still valid, which I've already admitted is just my opinion.

    On an off topic, I was looking through the Marvel Wikia you introduced me to (I was looking at the other "peak human" heroes that were mentioned, just for fun), I have to say it's really, pretty good. I only have one, I don't want to say complaint, but discrepancy, I guess is a good enough word. When concerning Deadpool, it says (about his strength) "he is able to lift at least 425lbs but no more than 800lbs" and he possesses a 4 on the grid. While Cap has the same max but is a 3. Really it's no big deal, since I think Deadpool's strength is in fact greater than Captain America's, but it was something I noticed. And honestly, that is really the only thing I've found so far that is a little off. Other than that it seems to be a pretty accurate site.

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    tg1982

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    Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

    It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

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    @tg1982 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

    It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

    According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

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    Teerack

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    Why is this thread still going? He's superhuman. /end

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    tg1982

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    @veshark said:

    @tg1982 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

    It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

    According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

    Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

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    @tg1982 said:

    @veshark said:

    @tg1982 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

    It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

    According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

    Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

    Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

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    tg1982

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    #

    @veshark said:

    @tg1982 said:

    @veshark said:

    @tg1982 said:

    @alexander505 said:

    Many people say that Cap not get tired...what do you think about it?

    It has been mentioned that his stamina is pretty strong. While he can, in fact, get tired, he is able to perform at peak efficiency for a lot longer than any other "normal" human hero in Marvel. How long I don't know.

    According to the Marvel Handbook, his body is able to prevent the buildup of fatigue toxins (probably mean lactic acids?), thus allowing him to have insane endurance.

    Yeah. But he does still get tired eventually. How long until he does? I don't know, but his endurance is legendary, to say the least. Just look at all he's going through currently in Remender's run, he mention's how tired and beat up he is but is still going on and fighting. Truly amazing stamina, IMO.

    Yeah his endurance in Remender's run is nuts. Has like a hundred broken bones and a gaping chest wound and he still fights even with all that blood loss.

    Gotta say, I'm loving the run, so far. Captain America #8, I was like, in shock. I DID NOT see that coming!!!!

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