I don't know how accurate those are, honestly. Believe me when I say, I wish they were 100% accurate, as it would only strengthen my case, since Cap has numerous consistent feats that outclass most of the "peak human" characters on that list. As for your last question (concerning BW), I'm sure there could be, but I'm fairly confident what ever feats there may be, they aren't consistent feats. I can honestly say, that in all the comics I've read about BW, I've never seen her perform any feat in any physical category that is equal to Cap, except maybe, and I stress maybe, agility.
I guess I find that really surprising, if I understand you correctly.
You're saying Cap regularly and consistent physically surpasses people in the same official category as him? There is no other similarly classed human, aside from BP, who has done similar feats to him? Daredevil, Black Widow, Isn't Deadpool peak as far as strength goes?
You're saying none of these characters have (PIS?) feats that could be used to argue they were enhanced human/at a similar level to Cap?
To me, the problem with the wording is, they say Elektra is Olympic-level, which as you say later on in this post, is just under peak human, then they say she is peak human. And yeah, the grid is way whack, I honestly don't know how they come up with their numbers when concerning certain characters. To my knowledge she does not have any super enhancements, and if she did then they should have said so in their powers, abilities or bio tabs.
Fair point....The Elektra entry is horrible.
Yeah, but isn't enhanced under super? Peak then enhanced, then super? If so, they say it right there, "Steve performed just below superhuman level for most of his career..." i.e. enhanced. Again if I'm wrong and they consider enhanced to be super or eliminated enhanced all together, then that is on me. And for the record I don't really care if Steve is enhanced or peak human. As, I know you're well aware of my position on the matter, lol. It's just misleading. That and the power grids are all over the place with certain characters.
The website seems contradictory and out dated. I can't say the same for the official handbooks, or the Marvel Wikia which takes it's sources from the handbooks, interviews, comics themselves, a variety of sources.
I, honestly, don't think it's too harsh, when it pertains to the power grids, which is what I think is F.U.B.A.R. not the whole handbook itself, I generally praise the history and biography portions of the handbook/website. But Elektra isn't the only one. Here is a list of a few characters that are way, way, waaaaaaay, whacked in terms of the marvel.com power grid, Punisher, http://marvel.com/universe/Punisher_%28Frank_Castle%29, again completely outclasses Cap in every category, Strength (6) (really?), Speed (5), Durability (5), Intelligence (5), and again energy projection (4) I know he uses guns, so if they count that as the reason that he has "energy projection" then Cap's durability should be at least a 6 due to his shield. Cyclops, who's only power is his optic beams, no physical powers, again outclasses Cap. http://marvel.com/universe/Cyclops_(Scott_Summers). Luke Cage, http://marvel.com/universe/Luke_Cage who, BTW, is a canon 25 tonner in terms of strength is weaker than the Punisher? Also his durability (his skin is literally bullet proof and he's taken hits and shots from explosions and other super strong beings such as Namor and didn't even get KO'd) has the same durability as Punisher, yeah. BTW, I'm only using Cap as the barometer because this thread is about him. That's just a few. I'm sure there are a lot more. So yeah, for the power grids, they are F.U.B.A.R.
I've noticed a big difference between the website, and the handbooks.
The Marvel Wikia on the other hand, is taken from the handbooks. I have no idea where the website gets its info.
Since I was arguing for the handbooks, I'd ask we stick to the handbook entries, since I agree the website is completely bunk.
The handbooks, entries available on the Marvel Wikia, show that Cap is classed at the same level for everything as Frank except except durability, where he is rated 3 instead of 2. Keep in mind, this is a 1 - 7 scale so it isn't saying Cap is equal to Frank, just that they both fall within the that classification relative to other, more powerful characters.
Cyclops is rated less than Cap for everything except energy projection.
Luke Cage outclasses Cyclops, Cap and Frank in terms of strength and durability.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Frank_Castle_(Earth-616)#Abilities
http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America_(Steven_Rogers)#Abilities
http://marvel.wikia.com/Scott_Summers_(Earth-616)#Abilities
http://marvel.wikia.com/Luke_Cage_(Earth-616)#Abilities
These powergrids are the same from the most recent handbooks, I can upload scans if you like. I think you would agree they are consistent?
Keep in mind, my gripe is with the power grids, in particular, and if the handbooks and website has them and they are this whack, then they either need a better editorial job or just get rid of the grids all together. Just my opinion. End of grid rant. LOL.
I agree with you, but the handbooks don't have anywhere near the problems the website has. The handbooks seem consistent and a good representation.
In the form of a guide sure, absolutely. But if the guide is way off like the power grids, then absolutely not. It should be used as a guide line, not a limitation, if that makes sense. It for example if a writer wants to show Cap lift more than 800lbs, but not ridiculously so, without some kind of explanation (i.e. he has temporary super strength, or something) then it shouldn't be a limit.
If it turns out the handbooks are consistent?
Keep in mind, as far as lifting more than 800lbs..that is how much Cap can lift above his head, with arms outstretched. As that is how Marvel measures strength. Lifting that way, you are limited to about 2/3rds of the amount you can bench. There is a scan of Captain benching 1100lbs, which would seem in line with his official strength level.
Oh. That's what it means. So it's a way of saying "rationalizing". Right?
Sure, it's rationalize with a specific context and connotation. I should have just said rationalize, but am used to using fanwank. Besides, now you know that term :)
Um, for me it's a bit tricky. I see PIS as something that is, basically, impossible for a character to do. Example Cap running at FTL speeds. But if it's within the realm of possibility, and can logically be explained, i.e. the situation was dire, as Cap was about to lose his best friend Bucky, who was more like a brother really, and adrenaline kicked in, then it's just a high-end feat (which is what I personally believe), not to be taken as an everyday occurrence kind of thing. Sorry if that's a copout answer, but I'm just being honest.
No, that's cool. I don't have a problem with stuff like that really. We agree however it isn't the character is capable of often, indeed only very rarely.
Hm, that might be tough, actually, as I don't have a whole lot of actual scans. I could give you issue numbers and or writers (depending). It'll take time, as I have to go through a lot of Cap comics, and a couple of omnibuses.
Issue numbers is perfect. If I see consistent evidence of him doing more than what he is officially listed as being capable of, I will concede immediately. The cherrypicked (I don't mean that in any negative way) feats that I've seen just don't do it for me...it's about consistency, not the feats themselves.
Scan wise no, he was a bit like Tom Clancy in terms of writing, methodical and building into a great, IMO, payoff. I've already PMd you a few scans of his work. From the Winter Soldier arc. The I-beam and telephone pole scans were his I believe, the Winter Soldier bullet dodging feat. He does have Cap say on panel that Cap dodges bullets because he sees faster than they fly.
I'm familiar with the "seeing faster" quote, but again, it's about consistency. If I'm not mistaken, that is the only time in all of Cap comics that it has been stated. So...one writer saying that doesn't make it so.
It's kind of like the fact that there is an issue of Superman, where one foolish writer wrote him as being able to see to the end of the universe. It doesn't make it so, no other writers ever mentioned it, it doesn't make sense...it's just something you have to ignore.
It's not the same with Cap because his seeing faster isn't as ridiculous, but my point is it's not an established aspect of the character, IMO.
As for the I-Beam and telephone pole scans...as above, he can lift more than 800lbs if it isn't directly above his head. I'm not sure, but I think this is a pretty basic aspect of weightlifting. So it figures he can lift more, and everything he lifts is still within the range of what would be considered peak.
The elevator, if I'm not mistaken he isn't lifting,,,but using his shield as a brake?
Throwing Big Bertha...still a peak feat. He can bench 1100lbs as peak, so that isn't surprising.
The telephone pole being between 900 and 1000lbs, still within peak classification.
I don't know about the I beam since it is hard to determine the weight....but I would think it weighs around 1200lbs at the most, which should be close to the upper limit of his strength as a peak human.
So, the scans actually support his classification from what I can see.
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