So cap isn't a superhuman...but is he enhanced or peak?

#51 Edited by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope other stories. Mark Gruenwald, Roger Stern, etc etc. Also for those that love hand books or bios. Some bio's even list Steve as "Enhanced Human"

OK, can you supply some references? All I've seen is the alleged post by brubaker keep being reposted, which is annoying. If there is all this evidence, why are people not posting it?

Can Batman heal a bullet to the head in 12 minutes? Can Bruce heal burn wounds in seconds? Is Bruce immune to alcohol poisoning.

So you're saying the healing factor alone is what meals him enhanced? Otherwise, Can Cap survive in the vacuum of space for 27 seconds? Can he catch bullets? How long can he hold his breath for under water?

Can Batman age super duper slow? Don't tell me you believe it was Brubaker that coined the phrase peak of human "potential" or the next step in human evolution. It was other writers.......Bru simply used Steve's past stories.

Aging is part of the healing factor too isn't it? Anyway, what other writers? Can you show scans?

@tupiaz said:

That was not my point. IMO peak human indicates that you is above the limits of the human race where at the peak human x (for instance strengths) indicates you are at the limits but you have not gone above it.

That's just nonsense. Look at what peak means.

peak: the highest level or greatest degree

It says nothing about surpassing.

#52 Edited by tupiaz (1975 posts) - - Show Bio
#53 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@tupiaz said:

@muyjingo: Don't need to be disrespectful.

I didn't think I was being disrespectful. I apologize.

#54 Posted by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

Nope other stories. Mark Gruenwald, Roger Stern, etc etc. Also for those that love hand books or bios. Some bio's even list Steve as "Enhanced Human"

OK, can you supply some references? All I've seen is the alleged post by brubaker keep being reposted, which is annoying. If there is all this evidence, why are people not posting it?

Can Batman heal a bullet to the head in 12 minutes? Can Bruce heal burn wounds in seconds? Is Bruce immune to alcohol poisoning.

So you're saying the healing factor alone is what meals him enhanced? Otherwise, Can Cap survive in the vacuum of space for 27 seconds? Can he catch bullets? How long can he hold his breath for under water?

Can Batman age super duper slow? Don't tell me you believe it was Brubaker that coined the phrase peak of human "potential" or the next step in human evolution. It was other writers.......Bru simply used Steve's past stories.

Aging is part of the healing factor too isn't it? Anyway, what other writers? Can you show scans?


Mark Gruenwald post on peak potential has been posted as the other "next step in human potential. It is in this very thread you might have missed it. Batman has never caught a bullet in his hand nor fingers, nor done the feats of Steve.

#55 Posted by Alexander505 (2138 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman has never caught a bullet in his hand

Wrong. Read Batman Confidential 32-33.

#56 Edited by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

Nope other stories. Mark Gruenwald, Roger Stern, etc etc. Also for those that love hand books or bios. Some bio's even list Steve as "Enhanced Human"

OK, can you supply some references? All I've seen is the alleged post by brubaker keep being reposted, which is annoying. If there is all this evidence, why are people not posting it?

The were posted. This is from Mark and the other is from the other writer.

"D
#57 Edited by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@alexander505 said:

Batman has never caught a bullet in his hand

Wrong. Read Batman Confidential 32-33.

Those he blocked IIRC. He didn't catch in his hand. Impressive but not the same thing.

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#58 Edited by Alexander505 (2138 posts) - - Show Bio

So...Cap has been enhanced for reach the peak human perfection...just like Batman with his training. Words slightly different, but with the same notion. Nothing of new :D

#59 Edited by Alexander505 (2138 posts) - - Show Bio

Those he blocked IIRC. He didn't catch in his hand. Impressive but not the same thing.

Oh please....really?

#61 Posted by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

Those he blocked IIRC. He didn't catch in his hand. Impressive but not the same thing.

Oh please....really?

Ah you post a lot in the Batman forums. I see it bothered you that Bru compared Batman to Daredevil in stats but they are more comparable then you unique Super Soldier. Batman is a top notch human but he is not the next step in human evolution.

#62 Posted by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

Those he blocked IIRC. He didn't catch in his hand. Impressive but not the same thing.

Oh please....really?

Yup. It's irrelevant anyways. Daredevil himself has also blocked bullets and yet Steve has been noted much faster then him. Point is neither Batman nor Daredevil are enhanced to the next step.....in evolution like Steve is.

#63 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio


Mark Gruenwald post on peak potential has been posted as the other "next step in human potential. It is in this very thread you might have missed it. Batman has never caught a bullet in his hand nor fingers, nor done the feats of Steve.

Oh. I thought you were talking about an interview or something. The scans don't show anything. Peak means what humans today are capable of, not what they may be capable of in the future. The peak of a mountain is ...it's peak. Not 40 feet above it where it may one day reach to.

Next step in human evolution could be referring to the fact that he doesn't have to train to be peak, that's his base state. Also the healing factor.

Yes, Batman has caught bullets, I posted a picture in the Batman vs Captain America thread on page 8.

#64 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America is enhanced human. A common misconception is that he is peak. He isn't. The super-soldier serum made him into the perfect human and the quote was "he has become something that humans might one day achieve" The key word here is might. At the moment he is far beyond what any human could accomplish with a life-time of training. Maybe with a few hundred or maybe thousand years of evolution would take humans to that level but as of right now no.

Cap is enhanced not peak!

@slimj87d can back me up on this I believe.

#65 Posted by SlimJ87D (8915 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I've already discussed it with him. I have little free time to discuss it further. But there's no convincing him unless the majority of bios state Cap is enhanced human.

#66 Posted by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99 said:

Mark Gruenwald post on peak potential has been posted as the other "next step in human potential. It is in this very thread you might have missed it. Batman has never caught a bullet in his hand nor fingers, nor done the feats of Steve.

Oh. I thought you were talking about an interview or something. The scans don't show anything. Peak means what humans today are capable of, not what they may be capable of in the future. The peak of a mountain is ...it's peak. Not 40 feet above it where it may one day reach to.

Next step in human evolution could be referring to the fact that he doesn't have to train to be peak, that's his base state. Also the healing factor.

Yes, Batman has caught bullets, I posted a picture in the Batman vs Captain America thread on page 8.

Those scans indicate peak of human potential and the other states next step in human evolution. Mountain peaks can decrease so your logic is not really sound. He's the next step in human evolution in all stats.

Daredevil himself has batted away bullets and he has stated that Steve is much faster then him. Steve strength has also been called preternatural meaning beyond the "natural". Batman....natural.....Steve.....beyond.

#67 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99: They do not indicate peak of human potential. Where does it say that? As I said, next step in human evolution could be referring ot his healing ability and lack of need to train to keep his abilities.

Mountain peaks decrease? What? We are talking about the word peak, stop trying to redefine it. The peak of the mountain is it's peak. It doesn't matter if it has decreased or not. Just stop trying to redefine what peak means.

Daredevil swatting away bullets is not the same as Batman catching them. Can Cap survive in the vacuum of space without a suit for 27 seconds?

#68 Edited by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio
@muyjingo said:

@krauser99: They do not indicate peak of human potential. Where does it say that? As I said, next step in human evolution could be referring ot his healing ability and lack of need to train to keep his abilities.

Mountain peaks decrease? What? We are talking about the word peak, stop trying to redefine it. The peak of the mountain is it's peak. It doesn't matter if it has decreased or not. Just stop trying to redefine what peak means.

Daredevil swatting away bullets is not the same as Batman catching them. Can Cap survive in the vacuum of space without a suit for 27 seconds?

It states in the Mark Gruewald scan in the narration. He is enhanced to the peak of human potential. Now on the phrase of "next step in human evolution." Nothing else needs to be added on to that....its perfect the way it is.

Mountain don't follow evolution that is why your logic does not add up....my point exactly on your redefining. Batman didn't really "catch" them in his hands he deflected them, plus Matt's is slight more impressive since he swatted them back at the shooter. Your Batman feat of space is irrelevant to what Steve is. 27 sec.....Steve has survived in a block of ice most of his life, to even survived inside a nuclear core, another time he survived inside "cryogenic" freeze.

#69 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99: You're out of your mind. you're interpreting something that has multiple interpretations in one particular way and insisting it is correct, with nothing to back it up.

And yes, he caught bullets. He didn't deflect them. He catches the bullet in his fist.

I'm tired of arguing this. People are not giving any evidence, just opinions with little to back it up. As it stands, Captain America is officially listed as a peak human. This means, with a strict interpretation, the equivalent of what all humans are capable of today. As strong as the strongest man, as fast as the fastest runner. As comics do, they tend to exaggerate this even more.

Comparing to humans in our world, yes, Cap is enhanced, but then so is Batman in the same way, in that both are capable of things no human today is.

Considering this thread done unless people can actually put forward evidence, not ambiguous scans, and not the opinion of a single writer.

#70 Edited by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@krauser99: You're out of your mind. you're interpreting something that has multiple interpretations in one particular way and insisting it is correct, with nothing to back it up.

And yes, he caught bullets. He didn't deflect them. He catches the bullet in his fist.

I'm tired of arguing this. People are not giving any evidence, just opinions with little to back it up. As it stands, Captain America is officially listed as a peak human. This means, with a strict interpretation, the equivalent of what all humans are capable of today. As strong as the strongest man, as fast as the fastest runner. As comics do, they tend to exaggerate this even more.

Comparing to humans in our world, yes, Cap is enhanced, but then so is Batman in the same way, in that both are capable of things no human today is.

Considering this thread done unless people can actually put forward evidence, not ambiguous scans, and not the opinion of a single writer.

Your free to you statements but all in all I disagree. I to grow weary of arguing this as your are redefining what has been stated for Steve. Hiding behind the Peak Human term for Steve does not take away the details of what canon stories have stated about his abilities. Evidence is there and it's you who just are giving opinions and are adding to phrases. Steve is the next step in human evolution....period. You are the one that is adding healing or stays at peak....to it. Batman is not the next step in human evolution. Cap is enhanced but Batman is all natural while Steve is preternatural.

Also I don't mind if I'm wrong and Batman has caught a bullet that really doesn't change much of the who or the what they are, but in the scans on page 8 that you linked does not show him catch them in his fist.

#71 Posted by XEL820 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's the thing; many characters have peak human strength, or conditioning, or whatever you want to call it. Batman is peak human, Nightwing is peak human, Green Arrow is peak human, Daredevil is peak human, Iron Fist is peak human, and even Black Widow is peak human. All these people have peak human conditioning which means for their size and weight, their body is capable of functioning at the highest levels of efficiency. Batman is easily stronger than the rest of the characters I've listed, but he's still peak human. Captain America is not.

Captain America is at the peak of human potential. What ever humans may evolve into someday, Captain America already is. His strength is constantly represented as more than human, he'd be pulled over for speeding in a neighborhood, he has incredible stamina, he can see flying bullets, he's eidetic, and these aren't even all his abilities. Captain America is clearly more than human but claiming him as peak human helps keep with tradition and simply adds to his image of your resident boy scout.

#73 Edited by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

That description "Peak of Human Potential", sums it up perfectly. I don't know what aspects of that doesn't seem clear to people. There are humans now, and there are humans at the highest level humans can be in todays era. Then there are humans thousands of years from now, who have evolved physically. Cap isn't just one of these evolved humans in the possible future, he is at the peak of even their abilities.

#74 Posted by tg1982 (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

That description "Peak of Human Potential", sums it up perfectly. I don't know what aspects of that doesn't seem clear to people. There are humans now, and there are humans at the highest level humans can be in todays era. Then there are humans thousands of years from now, who have evolved physically. Cap isn't just one of these evolved humans in the possible future, he is at the peak of even their abilities.

@xel820 said:

Captain America is at the peak of human potential. What ever humans may evolve into someday, Captain America already is. His strength is constantly represented as more than human, he'd be pulled over for speeding in a neighborhood, he has incredible stamina, he can see flying bullets, he's eidetic, and these aren't even all his abilities. Captain America is clearly more than human but claiming him as peak human helps keep with tradition and simply adds to his image of your resident boy scout.

Thank you, both!!! I couldn't have said it better myself.

#75 Edited by tg1982 (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact is, some posters are ignoring the part where Captain America is stated to be at the "peak of human POTENTIAL" not just "peak human" whether they are doing this knowingly or honestly can't grasp the concept is up for debate.

To sum it up as others have already said, Cap is at the peak of what humans can, hopefully, someday achieve, not at the peak of what we currently are.

#76 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982: @novi_homines:What makes you both think that "peak of human potential" refers to humanity in the future and not today? Where you you get that from?

There is nothing in the statement itself that implies a future version of humanity. Reading as is, it would seem the peak of what a human can be today.

Or at the least, that is a valid interpretation of an ambiguous statement.

#77 Posted by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982: @novi_homines:What makes you both think that "peak of human potential" refers to humanity in the future and not today? Where you you get that from?

There is nothing in the statement itself that implies a future version of humanity. Reading as is, it would seem the peak of what a human can be today.

Or at the least, that is a valid interpretation of an ambiguous statement.

"Through biochemical and radioactive means, we have created the next step in human evolution". Right off the comic book page. The line "next step in human evolution", very clearly implies a new breakthrough not achievable by any human being. Batman is peak human, but he has not evolved. Therefore, he is still a step below CAP physically.

#78 Edited by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio


"Through biochemical and radioactive means, we have created the next step in human evolution". Right off the comic book page. The line "next step in human evolution", very clearly implies a new breakthrough not achievable by any human being. Batman is peak human, but he has not evolved. Therefore, he is still a step below CAP physically.

I guess you didn't read the thread properly, because I've already made this point. Here it is again though.

"next step in human evolution" is ambiguous. You cap fans seem determined to take it in a particular way, which would be fine if there were evidence for it, but so far there isnt.

"next step in human evolution" could refer to the fact that his "base template" is the peak of what a human could be without having to work out, as well as the healing factor. It doesn't mean he has surpassed what humans today are capable of.

If male children started being born today that were 6"4, incredibly ripped and fit without ever having to work out, were as strong as the strongest man was by default, could run 20mph with ease and had an enhanced healing factor, would that not be a next step in human evolution?

#79 Edited by tg1982 (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982: @novi_homines:What makes you both think that "peak of human potential" refers to humanity in the future and not today? Where you you get that from?

There is nothing in the statement itself that implies a future version of humanity. Reading as is, it would seem the peak of what a human can be today.

Or at the least, that is a valid interpretation of an ambiguous statement.

Well to me just the word potential itself is the indicator, according to dictionary.com the first definition of potential is "possible, as opposed to actual". He isn't the "peak of current humans". Potential by it's definition is what could be possible, not what currently is. So being the peak of human potential is saying the peak of what humanity could be, not what humanity is currently.

Which would, and IMO does, explain why Captain America is capable of doing all the feats he is capable of doing that no human, outside of some physical augmentation (Black Panther, and Daredevil are some examples that come to mind) is capable of. For example seeing faster than bullets and dodging them after they've been fired, being able to throw his shield, which weighs 12lbs, through a truck long way from back to front including the engine block, and jumping at least two stories to land on a roof with no outside help. To my knowledge no human can do these things currently, whether in comics or (obviously) in real life.

#80 Edited by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:


Well to me just the word potential itself is the indicator, according to dictionary.com the first definition of potential is "possible, as opposed to actual". He isn't the "peak of current humans". Potential by it's definition is what could be possible, not what currently is. So being the peak of human potential is saying the peak of what humanity could be, not what humanity is currently.

Which would, and IMO does, explain why Captain America is capable of doing all the feats he is capable of doing that no human, outside of some physical augmentation (Black Panther, and Daredevil are some examples that come to mind) is capable of. For example seeing faster than bullets and dodging them after they've been fired, being able to throw his shield, which weighs 12lbs, through a truck long way from back to front including the engine block, and jumping at least two stories to land on a roof with no outside help. To my knowledge no human can do these things currently, whether in comics or (obviously) in real life.

There is no question about what potential means, the problem is in how the word is being applied here. I respect your interpretation, I don't think it is valid any more than mine though. As you say, potential refers to what is possible, but again that doesn't mean what is possible for humanity in the future, it means what is possible for a human today. The worlds fastest man, strongest man, etc. Not more than that.

Feats don't mean much, since different writers can write the character doing things he shouldn't be able to. Batman has been seen catching bullets, kicking down steel doors, breaking out of jail by just pulling the bars off etc...yet he isn't superhuman on any level.

#81 Posted by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@muyjingo said:

@tg1982: @novi_homines:What makes you both think that "peak of human potential" refers to humanity in the future and not today? Where you you get that from?

There is nothing in the statement itself that implies a future version of humanity. Reading as is, it would seem the peak of what a human can be today.

Or at the least, that is a valid interpretation of an ambiguous statement.

Well to me just the word potential itself is the indicator, according to dictionary.com the first definition of potential is "possible, as opposed to actual". He isn't the "peak of current humans". Potential by it's definition is what could be possible, not what currently is. So being the peak of human potential is saying the peak of what humanity could be, not what humanity is currently.

Which would, and IMO does, explain why Captain America is capable of doing all the feats he is capable of doing that no human, outside of some physical augmentation (Black Panther, and Daredevil are some examples that come to mind) is capable of. For example seeing faster than bullets and dodging them after they've been fired, being able to throw his shield, which weighs 12lbs, through a truck long way from back to front including the engine block, and jumping at least two stories to land on a roof with no outside help. To my knowledge no human can do these things currently, whether in comics or (obviously) in real life.

Agreed. Also even ignoring potential. Cap has been called preternatural on different occasions. Preternatural means beyond the natural. So the potential from a far makes more sense. Batman all natural abilities. Captain America beyond natural abilities.

#82 Posted by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@novi_homines said:

"Through biochemical and radioactive means, we have created the next step in human evolution". Right off the comic book page. The line "next step in human evolution", very clearly implies a new breakthrough not achievable by any human being. Batman is peak human, but he has not evolved. Therefore, he is still a step below CAP physically.

I guess you didn't read the thread properly, because I've already made this point. Here it is again though.

"next step in human evolution" is ambiguous. You cap fans seem determined to take it in a particular way, which would be fine if there were evidence for it, but so far there isnt.

"next step in human evolution" could refer to the fact that his "base template" is the peak of what a human could be without having to work out, as well as the healing factor. It doesn't mean he has surpassed what humans today are capable of.

If male children started being born today that were 6"4, incredibly ripped and fit without ever having to work out, were as strong as the strongest man was by default, could run 20mph with ease and had an enhanced healing factor, would that not be a next step in human evolution?

No. It would not. It would not be the next step in human evolution because humans would not be "evolving" if they were simply becoming whatever the peak human is. In order for humans to evolve, it must be into a state that is not currently available or seen. If there were a serum that enabled me to become a peak human automatically, (which seems to be your analogy) it would be incorrect to say that I have "evolved" as a human because there are many other peak humans in the world. I don't understand what aspect of this is so difficult to understand.

#83 Posted by tg1982 (2707 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:
As you say, potential refers to what is possible, but again that doesn't mean what is possible for humanity in the future, it means what is possible for a human today. The worlds fastest man, strongest man, etc. Not more than that.

That's just it though, no human today can do what Cap can do, in the comics or in real life, without some sort of augmentation. Otherwise they'd be super-human. As for humans in the Marvel Universe that aren't considered super-humans the only one I know of that is equal to Cap is Black Panther who has the heart shaped herb to enhance his physical abilities as well. So he is stronger than the strongest human, faster than the fastest, etc, etc.

@muyjingo said:

Feats don't mean much, since different writers can write the character doing things he shouldn't be able to. Batman has been seen catching bullets, kicking down steel doors, breaking out of jail by just pulling the bars off etc...yet he isn't superhuman on any level.

Feats kind of mean everything when it comes to comics, IMO. It's how we as comic fans can see as proof the validity of any statement or comment regarding any of our favorite heroes. Without Superman's feats of flying how would we know he flies? Simply saying he can isn't really enough. It's the saying "Seeing is believing".

@muyjingo said:

I respect your interpretation, I don't think it is valid any more than mine though.

This I agree with you on 100%. I also respect you interpretation, and also think yours is no more valid than mine. What it comes down to is we just agree to disagree. But for what it's worth, I really do enjoy discussing this with you, and have had, and still am having, a lot of fun on it. All we can do now is just except that we have differing opinions and respect each others stance on it.

#84 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

No. It would not. It would not be the next step in human evolution because humans would not be "evolving" if they were simply becoming whatever the peak human is. In order for humans to evolve, it must be into a state that is not currently available or seen. If there were a serum that enabled me to become a peak human automatically, (which seems to be your analogy) it would be incorrect to say that I have "evolved" as a human because there are many other peak humans in the world. I don't understand what aspect of this is so difficult to understand.

I don't think you understand evolution as well as you think you do.

Humans are significantly taller than we used to be, because we evolved that way. If humans were born so they develop to become very muscular and fit by default without working out, that would be a step in evolution. Evolution isn't about always improving, it's about adapting.

So yes, "next step in human evolution" doesn't imply anything about any future version of humanity. Sorry.

#85 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:


That's just it though, no human today can do what Cap can do, in the comics or in real life, without some sort of augmentation. Otherwise they'd be super-human. As for humans in the Marvel Universe that aren't considered super-humans the only one I know of that is equal to Cap is Black Panther who has the heart shaped herb to enhance his physical abilities as well. So he is stronger than the strongest human, faster than the fastest, etc, etc.

No human can do what most non powered humans can do in a comic. Very few humans can do what Batman can do, let alone Nightwing or even Robin. Peak human in comics is different from what it is in the real world. Regular non super peak humans regularly do stuff no peak human could do, it doesn't make them super human.

Feats kind of mean everything when it comes to comics, IMO. It's how we as comic fans can see as proof the validity of any statement or comment regarding any of our favorite heroes. Without Superman's feats of flying how would we know he flies? Simply saying he can isn't really enough. It's the saying "Seeing is believing".

Feats don't mean the everyday display of their powers. Superman flying isn't a feat, imo. Superman lifting a certain amount or flying at a certain speed would be a feet. The problem is when you have one writer who writes the character as overpowered and then you have fans who claims that single instance as evidence that the character has that level of power all the time.

This I agree with you on 100%. I also respect you interpretation, and also think yours is no more valid than mine. What it comes down to is we just agree to disagree. But for what it's worth, I really do enjoy discussing this with you, and have had, and still am having, a lot of fun on it. All we can do now is just except that we have differing opinions and respect each others stance on it.

Likewise, and thankyou. It's always enjoyable to discuss things with someone who is capable of actually having a discussion. Not many are.

#86 Edited by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@novi_homines said:

No. It would not. It would not be the next step in human evolution because humans would not be "evolving" if they were simply becoming whatever the peak human is. In order for humans to evolve, it must be into a state that is not currently available or seen. If there were a serum that enabled me to become a peak human automatically, (which seems to be your analogy) it would be incorrect to say that I have "evolved" as a human because there are many other peak humans in the world. I don't understand what aspect of this is so difficult to understand.

I don't think you understand evolution as well as you think you do.

Humans are significantly taller than we used to be, because we evolved that way. If humans were born so they develop to become very muscular and fit by default without working out, that would be a step in evolution. Evolution isn't about always improving, it's about adapting.

So yes, "next step in human evolution" doesn't imply anything about any future version of humanity. Sorry.

I understand evolution very well. I have taken numerous classes in Chemistry and Biology on a university level, and as far as the scientific use of the term is concerned (inherited changes that occur over many generations of a population), taking a serum which allows one to instantly become a peak human would not be described as an evolution of that human. And you are saying two different things, don't try to shoehorn in this new statement. Humans being born as muscular and as fit as a peak human is something entirely different from humans taking a serum

And frankly, you understand this too. But for some reason you refuse to accept it.

Humans are significantly taller than we used to be, because we evolved that way.

Thats your line. Notice how you use "evolve" in conjunction with humans being greater than we "use to be". Clearly supporting my claim of evolution being something that is greater than what is currently known. You use evolve as people surpassing the average height humans used to be. Reaching an average height level that we hadn't reached before. Yet with Cap, you interpret evolve as not surpassing a level that has been reached before by other peak humans. Interesting.

And lastly, lets count what you are discounting to preserve your interpretation of this.

1. Feats- Which apparently "don't mean much". Even though they are the only way of seeing which interpretation is right ( the beyond human one)

2. A writer who says he's above the ability of peak humans, and has written Cap more longer than any other writer, having an influence on the characters abilities.

Both of which support the interpretation of Cap being beyond peak human. Now instead of going against this, why don't you try to find scans that state that he's peak human, or writers that state that he's peak human. You can't simply stick by your own interpretation without any evidence, and rationally come to a conclusion that goes against the other, while asking others to provide evidence. In order for you to get people to take your opinion seriously, you'll have to come up with evidence that supports your claims as well. That's how a debate works. If not, you'll simply be a guy who has an opinion that goes against what is universally known.

#87 Edited by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

@novi_homines said:

I understand evolution very well. I have taken numerous classes in Chemistry and Biology on a university level, and as far as the scientific use of the term is concerned (inherited changes that occur over many generations of a population), taking a serum which allows one to instantly become a peak human would not be described as an evolution of that human. And you are saying two different things, don't try to shoehorn in this new statement. Humans being born as muscular and as fit as a peak human is something entirely different from humans taking a serum

So, we actually agree here. The serum or the results of it would not be described as evolution. What that means is, the results of the serum are very similar to and can represent the next step in human evolution.

So it's back to defining next step in human evolution. I think if humans by default were at the peak of what we are capable of today, that is an example of us evolving. It could very well be the next step in human evolution. Or hell, it could be referring soley to his healing factor.

The real problem is that the term is misused as it was frequently at the time it was published, and now we have to try and make it make sense.

For the record, I don't think the interpretation that he is more than human is necessarily wrong, but I think it's only one interpretation. The idea that he is anything more than the best humans are capable of today isn't evidenced by the scans above. They allow for that interpretation, just as they allow for the ones I have stated.

And frankly, you understand this too. But for some reason you refuse to accept it.

I do understand. I don't accept what you are saying because I think what you're saying is wrong.

And lastly, lets count what you are discounting to preserve your interpretation of this.

1. Feats- Which apparently "don't mean much". Even though they are the only way of seeing which interpretation is right ( the beyond human one)

2. A writer who says he's above the ability of peak humans, and has written Cap more longer than any other writer, having an influence on the characters abilities.

Yes, I'm discounting cherrypicked feats. Captain America ran at 60mph ONCE, his speed according to official sources is about 30mph. Which is about 7mph faster than the fastest human in the real world. I don't like feats because it's easy to find examples of non super humans doing super human things. In the context of this argument, I don't think they mean much.

I'm not discounting Ed Brubaker, but I don't think one writers opinion is an authority on the character. If anything, it's how he wrote him. I mean, this should be really easy to prove, are there not other writers that have commented on this issue? Are there not other scans aside from the same few cherrypicked feats?

Both of which support the interpretation of Cap being beyond peak human. Now instead of going against this, why don't you try to find scans that state that he's peak human, or writers that state that he's peak human. You can't simply stick by your own interpretation without any evidence, and rationally come to a conclusion that goes against the other, while asking others to provide evidence. In order for you to get people to take your opinion seriously, you'll have to come up with evidence that supports your claims. That's how a debate works. If not, you'll simply be a guy who has an opinion that goes against what is known universally.

Actually , no. I'm not the one who has to find evidence. The onus is on the people who insist he is enhanced human or super human, which he is not listed at as all. In any guide to the character or official source, it is made a point to mention that he is not superhuman but peak human.Captain America is described universally as peak human. That's what Marvel lists him as. IT is the fans who are redefining that term and insisting he is something more, and so I am asking for evidence. You are right, the person making a claim should provide evidence. I'm not making a claim, I'm asking for other who are making a claim contradicting what Marvel says to show evidence.

So far, the only evidence shown has been attempts at persuasion, insistence and scans showing ambiguous statements.

#88 Edited by krauser99 (635 posts) - - Show Bio

Well one thing is for sure. I'm glad that many Cap fans agree that he is unique to himself and that the term peak human isn't wrong but is not limited to those two words as well . Isn't some term that relatively defines who Cap is but more in the intrinsic details seen from the official story sources. I don't mind other humans being called Super Soldier, Preternaturual, strength of 10, strength of half a platoon. Peak human....or Peak of human "potential".

Steve is the maximum human level supposedly or the next step in human evolution. Truth be told if there is a "regular" non "enhanced" human out there that did this on his own without some "wonder" drug.........Super Soldier Serum. I would believe this........this is make believe after all. But no regular human as far as I can tell has received, these special labels combined with certain feats, that make Steve all his own. And with this the distinction becomes clear between this character among many other different characters.

#89 Posted by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo

So, we actually agree here. The serum or the results of it would not be described as evolution. What that means is, the results of the serum are very similar to and can represent the next step in human evolution.

So it's back to defining next step in human evolution. I think if humans by default were at the peak of what we are capable of today, that is an example of us evolving. It could very well be the next step in human evolution. Or hell, it could be referring soley to his healing factor.

- Yes we agree here. The serum and Cap are a display of the next step of human evolution. And yes, humans being born bigger and stronger would be a form of evolution. But it is irrelevant to this topic because that is not how CAP got his powers, or how batman reached peak human status.

- I also don't think "next step in human evolution" refers to solely his healing powers. They say "next step in human evolution", so we have to say that all of his enhanced abilities fall under this next step in human evolution. Since they didn't specifically distinguish which powers aren't a result of evolution, it would be incorrect to give a "cap" to some of his powers as peak human, and say they were only referencing his healing powers as an evolution. And in the ensuing pages, it touched on his speed, as well as his strength, implying that he has evolved in multiple ways. So it isn't referring to one singular enhanced ability.

I do understand. I don't accept what you are saying because I think what you're saying is wrong.

- You can't get away with this that easily. This still doesn't address the fact that you interpreted "evolve" as something going past what is currently known, in your OWN analogy. Yet refuse to interpret it this way when it comes to CAPs abilities.

Actually , no. I'm not the one who has to find evidence. The onus is on the people who insist he is enhanced human or super human, which he is not listed at as all. In any guide to the character or official source, it is made a point to mention that he is not superhuman but peak human.Captain America is described universally as peak human. That's what Marvel lists him as. IT is the fans who are redefining that term and insisting he is something more, and so I am asking for evidence. You are right, the person making a claim should provide evidence. I'm not making a claim, I'm asking for other who are making a claim contradicting what Marvel says to show evidence.

The problem is thats what the comic book says. His title of peak human, doesn't go against what everyone is saying of him being the peak of human potential. It all goes back to what only seems to be you, interpreting this as peak of current human ability. So yes, there are two ways of interpreting this as you say. Many have listed their evidence as to why they think it is peak of human potential. Now it is your turn to provide evidence as to why your opinion should be taken seriously. Or you could keep stating your own opinions as the reason why he's only peak of current human ability, which won't change anyone's opinions though. Since you're in the extreme minority.

#90 Posted by Teerack (4549 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Cap is super human. He doesn't get tired even if a human was at their peak they wouldn't be able to keep up with Cap.

#91 Edited by XEL820 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo @novi_homines

I'd like to join in please :]

Now, peak human. What does that mean? Well, to be frank, it doesn't mean what either of you seem to think it means. MuyJingo, and those who agree with him, are saying that peak represents the top. There is nothing higher. Novi_Homines, and those who agree with him, are saying that peak human represents the top of the next stage in the theoretical evolution of man. So here's my take:

I lift. Do you [even] lift [bro]? Or at least I did when I still played sports. The typical benchmark you try to reach as an athlete is to be able to lift your own weight (press). The stronger athletes could lift more. So here's the thing, peak humans in the comics, like Batman, are capable of performing at the highest efficiency their bodies afford them. Captain America performs at a level slightly above that. This makes him more than just the "peak human" used to describe Batman.

EDIT: I also forgot to add the following; peak conditioning refers to the size and weight of the character you refer to. CA weighs 240 lbs. If some guy with the same serum came around and was at 300 lbs, clearly Mr. 300 would be stronger. The term peak isn't so definitive as the be-all-end-all apex you guys seem to think it is.

#92 Posted by ScarletBatman (258 posts) - - Show Bio

You cannot compare the Batman and Captain America directly because they are in completely different universes. The bar for peak in one universe could be set higher or lower than in the other. Cap is the best a normal human could ever be in the Marvel Universe. Batman is the same in the DCU. Since neither character's abilities have ever been written consistently over the ages it is doubly impossible to compare them.

#93 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

- Yes we agree here. The serum and Cap are a display of the next step of human evolution. And yes, humans being born bigger and stronger would be a form of evolution. But it is irrelevant to this topic because that is not how CAP got his powers, or how batman reached peak human status.

Ok. First we have to settle something.

Peak human mean...the peak. The top. Peak human means the most a human could be. It doesn't mean, the most a human could maybe one day be after 50,000 years of evolution. It just means the best we can be, as we care currently defined. So, that's pretty much Batman. As strong as the strongest man, as fast as the fastest man, etc. They may surpass the official record holders, but not significantly. Not to the superhuman level.

The "default" of humans today even accounting for how diverse that range is, is pretty from being peak human. If the default were anything close to peak human, then that is a step in evolution. As is the healing factor.

Now, the big issue here is you can't simply say the serum is a display of the next step of human evolution. Evolution isn't a positive upward trend of improvement. It's adaptation. We have no real way of knowing how humans are going to evolve, and it is ridiculous to say that the serum is a display of that.

What we should all be smart enough to do is understand that is was a scientist boasting, and that his statement probably wasn't meant to be taken literally, even within the universe of the book.

I also don't think "next step in human evolution" refers to solely his healing powers. They say "next step in human evolution", so we have to say that all of his enhanced abilities fall under this next step in human evolution. Since they didn't specifically distinguish which powers aren't a result of evolution, it would be incorrect to give a "cap" to some of his powers as peak human, and say they were only referencing his healing powers as an evolution. And in the ensuing pages, it touched on his speed, as well as his strength, implying that he has evolved in multiple ways. So it isn't referring to one singular enhanced ability.

There is nothing incorrect about trying to work out what was meant by "next step in human evolution". Something I failed to get krauser to understand is that it's an ambiguous statement. It could easily be showboating by the scientist, especially given how he says it. It could easily be referring to the healing factor. I say that, because most of caps other characteristics are things that humans can get fairly close to, the healing factor isn't though. That isn't something you can acquire no matter how you train.

And again, evolution is not synonymous with improvement like you are using it. The serum could have had the effects of improving his speed and strength without that being related to his evolving. The point is, there is really no way to know. It wasn't spelled out. We can only try and work out what the most reasonable interpretation is. When you have situations like this though, I feel what the company says should count for something, and they still list him as peak human.

You can't get away with this that easily. This still doesn't address the fact that you interpreted "evolve" as something going past what is currently known, in your OWN analogy. Yet refuse to interpret it this way when it comes to CAPs abilities.

I'm sorry, but what? I'm not getting away with anything. I think you're wrong. I think you were using the word evolve incorrectly. Hell, you still are. There is no contradiction in what I am saying. If I haven't been clear, then please highlight where you see the contradiction so I can clarify. I've just read over our posts and can't see it myself.

The only thing I can see is that you seemed to misunderstand that my saying the serum making him peak could be what is meant by next step in human evolution. And it can, if the changes were heritable, if his default is now what is peak. I agree that a serum that just makes you big and strong isn't a step in human evolution, but that isn't what I was saying.

The problem is thats what the comic book says. His title of peak human, doesn't go against what everyone is saying of him being the peak of human potential. It all goes back to what only seems to be you, interpreting this as peak of current human ability. So yes, there are two ways of interpreting this as you say. Many have listed their evidence as to why they think it is peak of human potential. Now it is your turn to provide evidence as to why your opinion should be taken seriously. Or you could keep stating your own opinions as the reason why he's only peak of current human ability, which won't change anyone's opinions though. Since you're in the extreme minority.

The problem is peak human simply means peak human. It is never implied to be "peak of human potential". That is something different, that proponents of the cap is more than human theory have shoehorned in.

You admit that there is not only one way of interpreting the statement. That's good. What's more important is that one way doesn't require explanation, while the other does. That's a sign of an uncommon meaning or interpretation, or something having been redefined.

Now, your argument here seems to be that because I am vastly outnumbered in this thread, the onus is on me to prove my argument has any merit. Well...sorry, but no. In this particular thread, I am outnumbered. But this isn't an issue that is as cut and dry as you make it seem. There are numerous threads on the internet, nay on this forum, where the discussion is more heated and opinion is far more evenly divided. So don't try to dismiss me as an extreme minority, that's just disingenuous.

I started this thread because k4tzm4n in his Captain America vs Batman thread gave the edge to Captain America and called him Enhanced. I thought nothing of it. Then as I have many friends who are diehard Marvel fans (I'm far more into DC), who were insisting that Captain is not superhuman, just the best a human could be but not more than that etc, that he is only peak human (in the sense I said above), then I became interested. I was hearing two different things. As I did more research, the issue actually seemed to be one that was hotly debated. So I thought I would ask it here.

So far, the evidence that he is more than human has consisted of people pushing their opinion that their particular interpretation of an ambiguous statement is correct as well as cherry-picked feats. I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough, not when hoards of Marvel fans and the official sources say differently.

Also, sorry for the delay in replying. Busy week.

#94 Posted by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I've found the answer.

It seems Marvel redefines the term peak. It has nothing to do with evolution as some people were trying to claim, that still seems to be just boasting by the scientist.

According to Marvel, Peak is a level below super human but still withing reach of what a human in their best condition could achieve.

To quote:

Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans. Enhanced human refers to superhuman abilities some distance beyond the limits of humans, such as being able to lift a small car but not a tank, and is a kind of term for "light" superhuman abilities. Then comes the term superhuman. Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities.

That's Marvel's definition for Peak Human, which they still list Captain America as.

Here is a legend elaborating further.

He's obviously done super human stuff sometimes, but that is something that happens to all comic book characters, when they get popular and writers write them as overpowered. It doesn't mean he is super human. That pretty much settles it for me unless someone can provide more than pushing their interpretation or the occasional exaggerated feat.

#95 Posted by PowerHerc (78172 posts) - - Show Bio

Peak human.

#96 Posted by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Ok. First we have to settle something.

Peak human mean...the peak. The top. Peak human means the most a human could be. It doesn't mean, the most a human could maybe one day be after 50,000 years of evolution. It just means the best we can be, as we care currently defined. So, that's pretty much Batman. As strong as the strongest man, as fast as the fastest man, etc. They may surpass the official record holders, but not significantly. Not to the superhuman level.

The "default" of humans today even accounting for how diverse that range is, is pretty from being peak human. If the default were anything close to peak human, then that is a step in evolution. As is the healing factor.

Now, the big issue here is you can't simply say the serum is a display of the next step of human evolution. Evolution isn't a positive upward trend of improvement. It's adaptation. We have no real way of knowing how humans are going to evolve, and it is ridiculous to say that the serum is a display of that.

What we should all be smart enough to do is understand that is was a scientist boasting, and that his statement probably wasn't meant to be taken literally, even within the universe of the book.

- I don't understand why you continue to redefine evolution in cap's story, as simply peak human. This is the crux of our discussion. So you can stop stating how it means "peak of current humans". There are clearly 2 different interpretations, and your statement has been said enough.

- Now you're discounting the quoted words said specifically in the comic book? No, we should all be smart enough to understand that this scientist meant exactly what he said. Twisting his words, or not taking them literally would truly be misinterpreting it.

There is nothing incorrect about trying to work out what was meant by "next step in human evolution". Something I failed to get krauser to understand is that it's an ambiguous statement. It could easily be showboating by the scientist, especially given how he says it. It could easily be referring to the healing factor. I say that, because most of caps other characteristics are things that humans can get fairly close to, the healing factor isn't though. That isn't something you can acquire no matter how you train.

And again, evolution is not synonymous with improvement like you are using it. The serum could have had the effects of improving his speed and strength without that being related to his evolving. The point is, there is really no way to know. It wasn't spelled out. We can only try and work out what the most reasonable interpretation is. When you have situations like this though, I feel what the company says should count for something, and they still list him as peak human.

Again, I honestly don't know why you keep thinking that what he's saying shouldn't be taken the way he said it. If he didn't mean what he said, cap would not have these healing powers, and above human strength and speed. If he were only referring to his healing powers, he would have singled out his healing powers as the "next step in human evolution". There seems to be no logic behind this reasoning.

I'm sorry, but what? I'm not getting away with anything. I think you're wrong. I think you were using the word evolve incorrectly. Hell, you still are. There is no contradiction in what I am saying. If I haven't been clear, then please highlight where you see the contradiction so I can clarify. I've just read over our posts and can't see it myself.

Go back and see how you used the word "evolve", and look at my reaction to it, and you will see what i'm saying. There is no reason for me to repeat myself.

The problem is peak human simply means peak human. It is never implied to be "peak of human potential". That is something different, that proponents of the cap is more than human theory have shoehorned in. You admit that there is not only one way of interpreting the statement. That's good. What's more important is that one way doesn't require explanation, while the other does. That's a sign of an uncommon meaning or interpretation, or something having been redefined.

Now, your argument here seems to be that because I am vastly outnumbered in this thread, the onus is on me to prove my argument has any merit. Well...sorry, but no. In this particular thread, I am outnumbered. But this isn't an issue that is as cut and dry as you make it seem. There are numerous threads on the internet, nay on this forum, where the discussion is more heated and opinion is far more evenly divided. So don't try to dismiss me as an extreme minority, that's just disingenuous.

I started this thread because k4tzm4n in his Captain America vs Batman thread gave the edge to Captain America and called him Enhanced. I thought nothing of it. Then as I have many friends who are diehard Marvel fans (I'm far more into DC), who were insisting that Captain is not superhuman, just the best a human could be but not more than that etc, that he is only peak human (in the sense I said above), then I became interested. I was hearing two different things. As I did more research, the issue actually seemed to be one that was hotly debated. So I thought I would ask it here.

I have never said being outnumbered is a reason for you to get proof, I said thus far, you've been sitting back, asking others to bring proof. While you yourself acknowledge that there is multiple ways of interpreting this, yet don't provide any proof of your own. Others have brought why they believed it to be a certain way, with actual proof, and all you brought was your opinions and interpretations. This doesn't help you in your argument at all.

So far, the evidence that he is more than human has consisted of people pushing their opinion that their particular interpretation of an ambiguous statement is correct as well as cherry-picked feats. I'm sorry, but that just isn't good enough, not when hoards of Marvel fans and the official sources say differently.

Also, sorry for the delay in replying. Busy week.

- The opposite is actually true, but we are definitely viewing this from different angles. The statement is clear, and has been clear. Numerous Cap writers, and feats have come out and stated that the "peak of human potential" is the correct assessment. So its pretty clear that him simply being peak human is truly the opinion that consists of people pushing their own interpretations.

- The simple notion that the "cherry picked feats" are the ones that should be discounted, is baffling to me. If a character is established of being the peak of human potential/ "next step in human evolution", it is these specific feats that help prove this to be true. Without these feats, this would not even be a discussion. There are two ways of interpreting this, and if he wasn't shown to be above peak human in terms of his abilities, then the "peak human" interpretation would definitely be universally accepted. These feats are the deciding factors as to whether he is the "next step in human evolution", or above peak human as many claim him to be.

- And the fact that healing powers were part of his initial powers even before many other writers got their hands on him to maybe "inflate his abilities", as you seem to be suggesting, also clearly proves that this man is not superhuman, but definitely the next stage of human evolution.

#97 Edited by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Well I've found the answer.

It seems Marvel redefines the term peak. It has nothing to do with evolution as some people were trying to claim, that still seems to be just boasting by the scientist.

According to Marvel, Peak is a level below super human but still withing reach of what a human in their best condition could achieve.

To quote:

Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans. Enhanced human refers to superhuman abilities some distance beyond the limits of humans, such as being able to lift a small car but not a tank, and is a kind of term for "light" superhuman abilities. Then comes the term superhuman. Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities.

That's Marvel's definition for Peak Human, which they still list Captain America as.

Interesting. Where in this quote does it discount the fact that Cap isn't the peak of human potential? Because I simply didn't see it. The comic states he is the "next step in human evolution", his abilities have consistently been shown to be above the other "peak human" characters within the universe, and if the fact that he has healing powers doesn't prove to you that he is above other peak humans like batman or daredevil. I don't know what will.

Cap is in a rare pocket between superhuman, and peak human. This is party due to his abilities and the writer specifically stating "next step in human evolution". It would be incorrect to list him as superhuman after this statement. He simply cannot be superhuman, if he's also supposed to be the next step in human evolution. He's not above the realms of human potential. Thus the "peak human" classification is the more fitting one. Rather than creating a whole new category for this one character.

You probably think it is easier to discount what the comic says on him being the next step in human evolution. Or maybe interpret it as boasting or not to be taken literally because the official marvel directory lists him as peak human. But there is one thing you have to realize, they list him as peak human because of these stories. Especially when it comes to a character created so long ago. They list characters in certain categories AFTER reading their origin, and looking at their power set. And like I said, "peak human" is simply the more fitting category.

And that quote only confuses things further. The superhuman definition "Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities."

Contradicts the peak human definition, "Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans."

Far beyond normal human abilities for "superhuman" and, nearly beyond the best of humans for "peak humans". Peak humans could easily be defined as "far beyond normal human abilities" as well. A better definition for superhuman would be "far beyond the limits of the best of humans". Oh marvel.

#98 Edited by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio

Please fix your formatting before you post next time. It isn't hard, and makes it much easier for people to reply to you. The quoting system on the board helps faciliate discussion, using it in the way you did does not. Thanks.

- I don't understand why you continue to redefine evolution in cap's story, as simply peak human. This is the crux of our discussion. So you can stop stating how it means "peak of current humans". There are clearly 2 different interpretations, and your statement has been said enough.

Sigh. There is no redefinition going on here. Evolution means one thing that's it. You were using it incorrectly and now you seem to be saying that it has a different meaning in the comic book.

Evolution has nothing to do with peak human. Peak human means peak human, it's pretty simple. The only link was a supposition that next step in human evolution could be referring to caps being peak human being the new "default" for humans, which he may pass on. I explained all that above, maybe you should take time to read through the post again.

- Now you're discounting the quoted words said specifically in the comic book? No, we should all be smart enough to understand that this scientist meant exactly what he said. Twisting his words, or not taking them literally would truly be misinterpreting it.

Don't be daft. We've agreed that a serum does not induce evolution. That makes the statements by the scientist problematic if taken literally. It makes far more sense for him to be exaggerating. Even if we take him literally, it is irrelevant as it is still an ambiguous claim. There are any number of things he could be referring to. Your claim that he is referring to everything is no valid than the others.

Again, I honestly don't know why you keep thinking that what he's saying shouldn't be taken the way he said it. If he didn't mean what he said, cap would not have these healing powers, and above human strength and speed. If he were only referring to his healing powers, he would have singled out his healing powers as the "next step in human evolution". There seems to be no logic behind this reasoning.

Yeah, see what's happening here is you've got a particular interpretation that makes sense to you, and you've convinced yourself it's logical. It isn't. You're interpretation is one of many possible from an ambiguous statement. You talk about taking it the way he said it, but you are interpreting how he said it. Do you understand that?

But lets say I go with what your saying for the moment, and that "next step in human evolution" couldnt be referring to only his healing powers. It doesn't matter. It would still be referring to his changes that his is capable of passing on. It's those changes that we are discussing, and the statement by the scientist does nothing to clarify if it is the peak of what man is capable of, or beyond that.

Go back and see how you used the word "evolve", and look at my reaction to it, and you will see what i'm saying. There is no reason for me to repeat myself.

Again, don't be daft. You replied to a statement where I stated I had just gone back and read the posts. Given how you've been using the word incorrectly, despite your claim to be university educated in this subject, I'm not giving this avenue of our discussion further thought.

I have never said being outnumbered is a reason for you to get proof, I said thus far, you've been sitting back, asking others to bring proof. While you yourself acknowledge that there is multiple ways of interpreting this, yet don't provide any proof of your own. Others have brought why they believed it to be a certain way, with actual proof, and all you brought was your opinions and interpretations. This doesn't help you in your argument at all.

This is flat out incorrect. The proof you speak of has been people with strong opinions insisting they are correct, cherrypicked feats and ambiguous statements from the comic. You must have a really loose definition of proof. I really hope you're not going into a science field.

Also, when you say I'm in the extreme minority and go to lengths to emphasize that while saying due to that I have more of a responsibility to provide evidence, then yes, you are saying being outnumbered is a reason for me to get proof. If that isn't what you meant, read your statements before posting to make sure they are clear.

Now, as for providing proof, what would you accept? I've quoted various marvel sources, which is about all I can do. I can't prove a negative. What would you accept as proof? Why are you so quick to dismiss what Marvel has to say on the matter?

- The opposite is actually true, but we are definitely viewing this from different angles. The statement is clear, and has been clear. Numerous Cap writers, and feats have come out and stated that the "peak of human potential" is the correct assessment. So its pretty clear that him simply being peak human is truly the opinion that consists of people pushing their own interpretations.

Oh, cool! That seems like it should clear things up pretty quickly then. Maybe you can link me to where someone provided evidence of these numerous cap writers stating that and the numerous feats. The only writer I've seen referenced is Brubaker, which is exactly one writer. Two feats comes to mind right now without going through the thread, both of him running at very high speeds. If they are not isolated incidents, maybe a few more scans would clear it up pretty quickly? Otherwise they mean about as much as Batman kicking the Spectre.

- The simple notion that the "cherry picked feats" are the ones that should be discounted, is baffling to me. If a character is established of being the peak of human potential/ "next step in human evolution", it is these specific feats that help prove this to be true. Without these feats, this would not even be a discussion. There are two ways of interpreting this, and if he wasn't shown to be above peak human in terms of his abilities, then the "peak human" interpretation would definitely be universally accepted. These feats are the deciding factors as to whether he is the "next step in human evolution", or above peak human as many claim him to be.

I find it interesting that Marvel clearly defines "peak human", "enhanced human" and "superhuman", with Cap clearly being listed as peak human, yet his fans go to great lengths to argue he is more than that, based on a few feats where he was written as overpowered. Let me give you an analogy. When Batman kicked the spectre, it was not because he is capable of kicking the spectre, but because he was written as overpowered. that "feat" doesn't now redefine batman as being capable of kicking the spectre. Similarly, if a peak human was written as doing something an only an enhanced or sueprhuman should be able to do, it doesn't redefine what that character is capable of, we just have to accept a poorly written issue.

If he were capable of that all the time, and there were many examples of that, it would be a different story. But there are not, so it isn't. Do you understand?

- And the fact that healing powers were part of his initial powers even before many other writers got their hands on him to maybe "inflate his abilities", as you seem to be suggesting, also clearly proves that this man is not superhuman, but definitely the next stage of human evolution.

So he isn't superhuman, but he is more than human? Have a read of that and see if you don't notice the contradiction.

#99 Edited by MuyJingo (1358 posts) - - Show Bio


Interesting. Where in this quote does it discount the fact that Cap isn't the peak of human potential? Because I simply didn't see it. The comic states he is the "next step in human evolution", his abilities have consistently been shown to be above the other "peak human" characters within the universe, and if the fact that he has healing powers doesn't prove to you that he is above other peak humans like batman or daredevil. I don't know what will. Cap is in a rare pocket between superhuman, and peak human. This is party due to his abilities and the writer specifically stating "next step in human evolution". It would be incorrect to list him as superhuman after this statement. He simply cannot be superhuman, if he's also supposed to be the next step in human evolution. He's not above the realms of human potential.

Really, dude? So when they say that a peak human means a human from today could achieve that same level, you think he could still be the next step in human evolution? So that means that a high end athlete capable of achieving peak human level, would be at the same level as the next step in human evolution?

I think that's foolish, but I'm not going to argue it. I started this thread to discuss if he is peak or enhanced, not to get into a semantics argument about evolution.

And that quote only confuses things further. The superhuman definition "Characters with a superhuman attribute are far beyond normal human abilities."

Contradicts the peak human definition, "Peak human is applied to physical abilities that are nearly, but not quite, beyond the limits of the best of humans."

There is no contradiction. What the hell are you talking about. It spells it out very simply. Peak human is the extreme end of what a human alive today can be through training and exercise. It would be rare, but it is possible. Enhanced and Superhuman are beyond that. What's hard to understand?

If cap is the next step in human evolution, and capable of things no ordinary human alive today is capable off, however fit they may be, he is by definition superhuman. Think about what super means. Within the definitions provided by marvel, he is not "far beyond", so he is not listed as superhuman. It's simple. If humans through training and exercise can match him, however hard and rare it may be, he isn't enhanced or super. If they can't, then he is.

Far beyond normal human abilities for "superhuman" and, nearly beyond the best of humans for "peak humans". Peak humans could easily be defined as "far beyond normal human abilities" as well. A better definition for superhuman would be "far beyond the limits of the best of humans". Oh marvel.

Yeah, I think I'm going to stick with Marvel on this one. Their definitions actually make sense. I really find it incredible that you have a problem with their definitions and propose new ones...but whatever.

#100 Edited by novi_homines (1321 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: As many different people have stated, these are only two specific classifications that doesn't capture every superhero out there. But take it as you wish.

I would've saved myself all this trouble if I simply heeded @slimj87d's warning. "I've already discussed it with him. I have little free time to discuss it further. But there's no convincing him unless the majority of bios state Cap is enhanced human."

How right he was...

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