Mantle Page Names: Huge Captain America Problem

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Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio

We started Comic Vine with the rule that there is only one Captain America, Batman, Spider-Man, etc page.  Even if the mantle has been portrayed by other characters.   It's a super important rule because it simplifies our pages and encourages us to keep our articles concise.   So G-Man and I had a mini freak out when we saw that someone renamed the Bucky Barnes page to Captain America (Barnes) and renamed our Captain America page to Captain America (Rogers).   
 

 No, no, no.  Someone renamed the Bucky Barnes page to "Captain America (Barnes)"


 We never do this on Comic Vine.  Mantle pages are not specific to one character.

There's been many more characters taking up the mantle of Captain America in place of Steve Rogers in the past and if we continued down the road of having multiple Captain America pages we'd end up with 6!  And then we'd have multiple Spider-Man pages and Batman pages and on an on.  I'll change the Buck Barnes page back to the correct name.  I'm not unhappy with who ever changed the page names.  But this is an important concept -- one mantle page -- here at Comic Vine that I want everyone to know about.
Staff
#1 Posted by CasimirAngel (150 posts) - - Show Bio

So then is it a rule that the person who is most identified with a mantle be on the mantle page and then the lesser identified would get their own page under their real name?  Like Bucky Barnes or Dick Grayson each having a separate page, but Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne being under the mantle pages?
#2 Edited by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

How about for Hawkman? Should Fel Andar and Katar Hol have their own pages since they shared a mantle? 

#3 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@CasimirAngel: @CrimsonAvenger:  
 
The mantle page should be about all the character who have worn the mantle.  If there is a new change to who wears the mantle you include that character into the page.  BUT, for example, until it's assured that Steve Rodgers will not return as Captain America, you keep the Steve Rodger's information as the most prominent.  Each character who wears the mantle can have their own page as well.  But in general, a character like Bruce Wayne, is so identified as Batman, that's we do not need a separate Bruce Wayne page.   
 
Remember you guys are all experts, but we want to be a resource that helps non-comic book people too.  So when an non-comic person comes to our site we want to have just one Captain America or Batman page for them to read.  The article should be well written and organized so that that they learn about who has been the Bat in the past besides Bruce Wayne. 
Staff
#4 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.:  
 
Thanks for explaining, just wanted to clear that up.
#5 Posted by War Killer (20207 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.: Question: I understand what you're saying, but what about with characters like Eric O'Grady and Scott Lang who's pages are now Ant-Man (O'Grady) and Ant-Man (Lang)? Do we change them back to just their normal names like with Bucky Barnes and Dick Grayson? I'm just asking because my main issue that Eric O'Grady is the current Ant-Man and Scott Lang has been dead for years and it doesn't look like Marvel will be bringing him back any time soon, so shouldn't O'Grady be credited with the title since he now holds it and it doesn't appear that will be changing any time soon.
#6 Posted by jamesewelch (616 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the mantle pages are confusing.
 
When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above.

#7 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@War Killer said:
" @Red L.A.M.P.: Question: I understand what you're saying, but what about with characters like Eric O'Grady and Scott Lang who's pages are now Ant-Man (O'Grady) and Ant-Man (Lang)? Do we change them back to just their normal names like with Bucky Barnes and Dick Grayson? I'm just asking because my main issue that Eric O'Grady is the current Ant-Man and Scott Lang has been dead for years and it doesn't look like Marvel will be bringing him back any time soon, so shouldn't O'Grady be credited with the title since he now holds it and it doesn't appear that will be changing any time soon. "
Yes.  Those pages should not have been named that way.  There should be one Ant-Man page, which has a definitive article that explains O'Grady and Lang.  And if we really need it, both those guys can have pages of there own. 
 
For example I noticed we have a Norman Osborn page but no Green Goblin page.  This is a mistake.  Norman Osborne was the most prominent Green Goblin -- there have been 4 -- and he and the others should be discussed on the Green Goblin page (which we seem to no longer have).  BUT in the last few years Norman Osborne has become an important character outside of the Green Goblin mantel, therefore he should have his own page as well. 
Staff
#8 Posted by jrh7925 (272 posts) - - Show Bio

 Wow. Looks like hundreds of hours of my work down the drain because I volunteered for a project to help separate out the mantle pages (which I agree with 100%). Talk about feeling dejected...

#9 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@jamesewelch said:
" I think the mantle pages are confusing.  When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above. "  
Yah, we understand this limitation of our system.  We are fine with people adding Bucky Barnes and Captain America to the issue in that case.   
 
But we'd rather make that sacrifice than to have multiple Captain America article pages.  That's been our rule and approach since we launched in 2006.   
Staff
#10 Posted by jamesewelch (616 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.:  Admins break rules all the time. :) We have non-comic book related characters within Comic Vine that should be over at screened (I think they are) and I think we can fine tune the site with improvements that make it better. I'm sure you guys have learned lots of ways of doing lots of things better since 2006... :) Having a new non-comic book viewer look at the latest Captain America issue and not see Captain America as one of the characters seems like it's more confusing than helping... There could be a 'mantel page' and a character page. It seems like the mantle pages just keep track of the costume/uniform and not really the character but that's not the case with Cap Am since Bucky is wearing it but Steve is still called Cap Am. As far as Cap Am is concerned, Steve Rogers will be returning to the uniform in July anyways so this won't matter for this particular situation with Bucky and Cap.
#11 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio

OK! What do you see as the way forward in that case? For example, Spider-woman and Ms Marvel. Should there now be a new 'Spider-woman' page made which combines all the characters who have called themselves Spider-woman ever, and then update Jessica Drew's page to be named just 'Jessica Drew' and Julia Carpenter's 'Julia Carpenter'? Ms Marvel - do we need a 'Ms Marvel' page which combines Carol Danvers, Moonstone and maybe even Sharon Ventura and then update or keep their separate pages? Or should Carol's page be the main 'Ms Marvel' page with just a footnote to mention how Moonstone took the name at one point?

#12 Edited by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio

Like, right now there are 4 Spider-woman pages: Drew, Franklin, Witter and Clone (what?). I'm guessing you will want to go back to Spider-woman's main page being Jessica Drew's and Mattie Franklin just being her name? Also 2 Spider-girls - Parker and Corazon. Which one gets the 'mantle' page, or do they merge? Or Ghost RIder where there is a separate page PLUS Johnny Blaze and Dan Ketch pages.

#13 Posted by jloneblackheart (5519 posts) - - Show Bio
@jrh7925
 Wow. Looks like hundreds of hours of my work down the drain because I volunteered for a project to help separate out the mantle pages (which I agree with 100%). Talk about feeling dejected...
I think you're still adding valuable information, it's just all how the pages should be labeled. It seems Batman and Captain America are the main issues, since they are so iconic.

Almost all the other characters are correct and the other mantle pages work just fine. The main issues are Bats, Cap, and all the pages that just need to be renamed back to what they were before.
Moderator
#14 Posted by Blurred View (363 posts) - - Show Bio

Count me among those who have always found the mantle thing here a little confusing. I mean, I get wanting the "Captain America" page to be Steve Rogers' and the same with Batman and Bruce Wayne, but it quickly starts to get unclear. What's up with the Robin page? It seems to be about the mantle in general and all the people who have been Robin have their own individual pages. Same with Flash and all those who have used that mantle having their own pages. But then you have the Firestorm page, where all the characters who have been Firestorm share space and none have their own pages. I've never been clear on how it's actually supposed to work. 

#15 Posted by fesak (7054 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @jamesewelch said:
" I think the mantle pages are confusing.  When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above. "  
Yah, we understand this limitation of our system.  We are fine with people adding Bucky Barnes and Captain America to the issue in that case.   
We are? Why? 
I definitely do not agree with crediting characters that doesn't appear anywhere in the issue?
Also what purpose do the mantle pages have, really? As it is now they only create confusion and nothing more.
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#16 Edited by jamesewelch (616 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's how I'd love to see it get changed/fixed:
 
Mantle pages (going with the terminology laid out by RedLamp) would be there own entity pages. A Mantle (eg. Batman, CapAm) could have multiple characters associated with it along with some text - very similar to adding issues to story arc page. Each character associated with a mantel would be given an Alias of that mantle (and displayed on the character page). Then when searching for "Captain America", it would show the Mantle page 1st, then Steve Rogers, Bucky, etc. When a user would click on a Mantel page, it would act as a  disambiguation page showing the current character with the mantle on top of the page, then list each character and a summary below it (issue in story arc style).  The origins of the character, 1st appearances, deaths, appearances and issues, etc. then could actual relate to each character rather than to the costume/mantle. The issue pages wouldn't need to change, just modify the character page to be able to be linked to mantles and add a new mantle page that can link to characters.

#17 Posted by jamesewelch (616 posts) - - Show Bio
@fesak said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @jamesewelch said:
" I think the mantle pages are confusing.  When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above. "  
Yah, we understand this limitation of our system.  We are fine with people adding Bucky Barnes and Captain America to the issue in that case.   
We are? Why?  I definitely do not agree with crediting characters that doesn't appear anywhere in the issue? Also what purpose do the mantle pages have, really? As it is now they only create confusion and nothing more. "
Agree. I think that makes it worse, because now Steve Rogers is listed as appearing in Captain America, but he's not really there. We then have a data integrity issue because we have bad data and it'll confuse more people looking for Steve Rogers.
#18 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@fesak said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @jamesewelch said:
" I think the mantle pages are confusing.  When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above. "  
Yah, we understand this limitation of our system.  We are fine with people adding Bucky Barnes and Captain America to the issue in that case.   
We are? Why?  I definitely do not agree with crediting characters that doesn't appear anywhere in the issue? Also what purpose do the mantle pages have, really? As it is now they only create confusion and nothing more. "
yeah, when did this development occur...I thought part of being a citable database was that we were also accurate, that's just misleading...I mean in an issue where Steve Rogers is out of costume, we'd still credit Captain America but if Bucky Barnes appeared as Winter Soldier, we'd just credit Bucky Barnes
Moderator
#19 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @fesak said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @jamesewelch said:
" I think the mantle pages are confusing.  When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above. "  
Yah, we understand this limitation of our system.  We are fine with people adding Bucky Barnes and Captain America to the issue in that case.   
We are? Why?  I definitely do not agree with crediting characters that doesn't appear anywhere in the issue? Also what purpose do the mantle pages have, really? As it is now they only create confusion and nothing more. "
yeah, when did this development occur...I thought part of being a citable database was that we were also accurate, that's just misleading...I mean in an issue where Steve Rogers is out of costume, we'd still credit Captain America but if Bucky Barnes appeared as Winter Soldier, we'd just credit Bucky Barnes "
One huge purpose the character pages who are mantles (Batman, Captain America, Superman) serve -- and yah they are just character pages -- here at Comic Vine is, they bring us boat loads of new visits to our site.  Google has identified those page, and 100s more, as the most important pages on our site.  We don't want to dilute our best pages value by creating alternate Captain America pages, we've worked super hard to get those page ranks.   And if we start down the road of creating multiple Captain Americas where does it stop?  We'll start getting them for every Alternate Universe version.  This is a scenario we thought about and made a decision on when we launched Comic VIne.   At the end of the day we have to prioritize are strengths and weakness in the wiki.  A more complete, organized and well written article page is the highest value to us.  
 
BTW, We are fine with creating a Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne page if it reduces anxiety.  But in an issue of Captain America or Batman, no matter who is wearing the suit ( Steve/Bucky or Bruce/Tim) we still want to credit Captain America or Batman to the issue. 
 
I get it that a proper mantle category would be cool.  But engineering won't be addressing something like that anytime soon. 
 
 @jamesewelch:
The Captain America page should discuss ALL of the people who have been Captain America.  Same thing on the Flash, Batman, Green Goblin pages.    
Staff
#20 Posted by MTHarman (725 posts) - - Show Bio

Somebody did the samething with the Red Skull, I already know who did it because of how im always on that page and it's understandable because Marvel Comics do the samething with their published materials. Right now I'll fix Red Skull's pages so that Comicvine doesn't have more than one Red Skull floating around.
#21 Posted by jamesewelch (616 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:
 @jamesewelch: The Captain America page should discuss ALL of the people who have been Captain America.  Same thing on the Flash, Batman, Green Goblin pages.     "
Totally agree. I think everyone is in agreement with that  statement. It's just how it's handled on the issue pages that has everyone confused. If there were separate mantle pages from character pages, then there could be a Captain America mantle page, Steve Rogers character page, Bucky Barnes character page, etc. See total write up of a suggested solution on page 1 (post 17).
#22 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@jamesewelch said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:
 @jamesewelch: The Captain America page should discuss ALL of the people who have been Captain America.  Same thing on the Flash, Batman, Green Goblin pages.     "
Totally agree. I think everyone is in agreement with that  statement. It's just how it's handled on the issue pages that has everyone confused. If there were separate mantle pages from character pages, then there could be a Captain America mantle page, Steve Rogers character page, Bucky Barnes character page, etc. See total write up of a suggested solution on page 1 (post 17). "
yeah, nobody ever debated that a character page should mention the other bearers of the mantle...I mean the Captain America page says quite clearly, for information of the current Captain America see the Bucky Barnes page...but by the logic proposed, then there should be a Captain America page, a Winter Soldier page, a Bucky (the super name) page, a Steve Rogers page, a Bucky Barnes page, a John Walker page, a Super Patriot page, a U.S. Agent page, a Nomad page, a Jack Monroe page, etc. (and that's just four different people in the equation...and not even all the pages that relate to them I'm sure)
Moderator
#23 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio

Will there be wiki tasks to undo all the people who have made multiple pages of characters or do we have to tackle this ourselves? Who gets to decide who is the mantle page bearer - I mean, Black Widow is pretty obvious, Spider-Woman, and Spider-Girl maybe not?

#24 Posted by fesak (7054 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @fesak said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @jamesewelch said:
" I think the mantle pages are confusing.  When I add Steve Rogers (Secret Avengers or whatever title), I add Captain America. When I'm adding Bucky in Captain America, I have to add Bucky. I'd rather we use the real names than character names just because it's so easy to keep track of. I've seen countless number of people add Captain America (meaning Bucky) to pages where they should have added Bucky instead, but they probably don't know any better because CV's Captain America isn't the actual Captain America. I can only imagine the more complicated characters like some mentioned above. "  
Yah, we understand this limitation of our system.  We are fine with people adding Bucky Barnes and Captain America to the issue in that case.   
We are? Why?  I definitely do not agree with crediting characters that doesn't appear anywhere in the issue? Also what purpose do the mantle pages have, really? As it is now they only create confusion and nothing more. "
yeah, when did this development occur...I thought part of being a citable database was that we were also accurate, that's just misleading...I mean in an issue where Steve Rogers is out of costume, we'd still credit Captain America but if Bucky Barnes appeared as Winter Soldier, we'd just credit Bucky Barnes "
One huge purpose the character pages who are mantles (Batman, Captain America, Superman) serve -- and yah they are just character pages -- here at Comic Vine is, they bring us boat loads of new visits to our site.  Google has identified those page, and 100s more, as the most important pages on our site.  We don't want to dilute our best pages value by creating alternate Captain America pages, we've worked super hard to get those page ranks.   And if we start down the road of creating multiple Captain Americas where does it stop?  We'll start getting them for every Alternate Universe version.  This is a scenario we thought about and made a decision on when we launched Comic VIne.   At the end of the day we have to prioritize are strengths and weakness in the wiki.  A more complete, organized and well written article page is the highest value to us.
This part is very contradicting. We have at least four different pages for Superman, one which was created by a staff member. Why is this allowed then?
Actually this whole ordeal is confusing. Am i correct in thinking you basically want undo everything several mods and users have been working on the last couple of months in order to make the site less confusing and more streamlined, and instead create more pages with no purpose other than getting google hits?
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#25 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@fesak: Can you link me to the separate Superman character pages?
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#26 Posted by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by Blurred View (363 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:

One huge purpose the character pages who are mantles (Batman, Captain America, Superman) serve -- and yah they are just character pages -- here at Comic Vine is, they bring us boat loads of new visits to our site.  Google has identified those page, and 100s more, as the most important pages on our site.  We don't want to dilute our best pages value by creating alternate Captain America pages, we've worked super hard to get those page ranks.   And if we start down the road of creating multiple Captain Americas where does it stop?  We'll start getting them for every Alternate Universe version.  This is a scenario we thought about and made a decision on when we launched Comic VIne.   At the end of the day we have to prioritize are strengths and weakness in the wiki.  A more complete, organized and well written article page is the highest value to us.                  "
Yeah, but this way of having a mantle page and character page be one and the same doesn't seem like it results in a more complete, organized and well written article page. This leads to the page about Steve Rogers being cluttered with information about all the other Captain Americas too while other characters get pages more focused on them. It also means ComicVine wouldn't have anything close to an accurate appearance list (appearance lists being one of the major strengths I think CV has over other wiki sites) for Steve Rogers, because we're crediting his page to any comic where any Captain America appears. Separate mantle pages, if CV really wants to have mantle pages, seems like the more organized way of doing it.
#28 Posted by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blurred View said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:

One huge purpose the character pages who are mantles (Batman, Captain America, Superman) serve -- and yah they are just character pages -- here at Comic Vine is, they bring us boat loads of new visits to our site.  Google has identified those page, and 100s more, as the most important pages on our site.  We don't want to dilute our best pages value by creating alternate Captain America pages, we've worked super hard to get those page ranks.   And if we start down the road of creating multiple Captain Americas where does it stop?  We'll start getting them for every Alternate Universe version.  This is a scenario we thought about and made a decision on when we launched Comic VIne.   At the end of the day we have to prioritize are strengths and weakness in the wiki.  A more complete, organized and well written article page is the highest value to us.                  "
Yeah, but this way of having a mantle page and character page be one and the same doesn't seem like it results in a more complete, organized and well written article page. This leads to the page about Steve Rogers being cluttered with information about all the other Captain Americas too while other characters get pages more focused on them. It also means ComicVine wouldn't have anything close to an accurate appearance list (appearance lists being one of the major strengths I think CV has over other wiki sites) for Steve Rogers, because we're crediting his page to any comic where any Captain America appears. Separate mantle pages, if CV really wants to have mantle pages, seems like the more organized way of doing it. "
THIS. I don't see why we can't have one page as the mantle page with info on those who have worn that mantle and then separate character pages as opposed to one mantle page that's also a character page and then separate character pages for others who have worn the mantle. I think that the two methods could be blended to make everybody happy and make the wiki more accurate. 
Moderator
#29 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blurred View said:
" @Red L.A.M.P. said:

One huge purpose the character pages who are mantles (Batman, Captain America, Superman) serve -- and yah they are just character pages -- here at Comic Vine is, they bring us boat loads of new visits to our site.  Google has identified those page, and 100s more, as the most important pages on our site.  We don't want to dilute our best pages value by creating alternate Captain America pages, we've worked super hard to get those page ranks.   And if we start down the road of creating multiple Captain Americas where does it stop?  We'll start getting them for every Alternate Universe version.  This is a scenario we thought about and made a decision on when we launched Comic VIne.   At the end of the day we have to prioritize are strengths and weakness in the wiki.  A more complete, organized and well written article page is the highest value to us.                  "
Yeah, but this way of having a mantle page and character page be one and the same doesn't seem like it results in a more complete, organized and well written article page. This leads to the page about Steve Rogers being cluttered with information about all the other Captain Americas too while other characters get pages more focused on them. It also means ComicVine wouldn't have anything close to an accurate appearance list (appearance lists being one of the major strengths I think CV has over other wiki sites) for Steve Rogers, because we're crediting his page to any comic where any Captain America appears. Separate mantle pages, if CV really wants to have mantle pages, seems like the more organized way of doing it. "
Character pages are already cluttered with 'Alternate Universes' and 'Movie/TV versions'. I don't see it being any different from that. But I do disagree with giving 'Captain America' an appearance in a comic if Steve is not physically present in the issue.
#30 Posted by Blurred View (363 posts) - - Show Bio
@xkoenig said:
" @Blurred View said: 
Yeah, but this way of having a mantle page and character page be one and the same doesn't seem like it results in a more complete, organized and well written article page. This leads to the page about Steve Rogers being cluttered with information about all the other Captain Americas too while other characters get pages more focused on them. It also means ComicVine wouldn't have anything close to an accurate appearance list (appearance lists being one of the major strengths I think CV has over other wiki sites) for Steve Rogers, because we're crediting his page to any comic where any Captain America appears. Separate mantle pages, if CV really wants to have mantle pages, seems like the more organized way of doing it. "
Character pages are already cluttered with 'Alternate Universes' and 'Movie/TV versions'. I don't see it being any different from that. But I do disagree with giving 'Captain America' an appearance in a comic if Steve is not physically present in the issue. "
I disagree and wouldn't really call that clutter. Alternate Versions and Other Media stuff is all still about Steve Rogers (or whatever character we want to use as example). It's still all focused on one character, specifically the character people go to that page to read about. That's not really the same as Steve's page also being about Bucky Barnes, John Walker, Jeffrey Mace, etc. A character page works best when it's... well... focused on that character. Especially major characters like Steve Rogers and Bruce Wayne. There already should be a ton of information just focusing on them because of how long they've been around and how popular they are. Does it really do their pages any favors to throw in all that info about their respective mantles too? It makes an article page that probably already has an unwieldy amount of information even more unwieldy and totally wrecks anything accurate about their appearances list.

I get that adding a Mantles group is some engineering challenge that won't happen anytime soon. But it does seem more organized and clear to have mantle pages focus on just the mantles and character pages to focus on just the characters. That way... if someone wants to find out about Bucky, they go to his page. If they want to read about Steve, they can go to Steve's page and not have to sift through anything about Bucky. If they want to read about the Captain America mantle and who all has used it, they can go to the mantle page and not have to scroll through Steve's extensive history to read about it.
#31 Posted by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio

^agreed

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#32 Posted by fesak (7054 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by xkoenig (394 posts) - - Show Bio
@Blurred View: I do like the idea of collating the various mantle-bearers in one neat and tidy way like you suggest, but then each comic will now have to be updated to not only include which characters have appeared in an issue, but also which mantles have appeared. For example, now we would have to go through all Carol Danvers' appearances and figure out when she was Warbird, when she was Binary and when she was Ms Marvel, and the same for likely a lot of other people. I for one get very annoyed by sites like comicbookdb.com where if you're looking up someone like Selene, they have divided it so that sometimes she is listed as Black Queen (a whole separate entry) and sometimes as 'Selene', meaning you have to think 'Oh yeah, she was probably not Black Queen in that issue, but just Selene'. I'm not sure I know what the ideal solution is.
#34 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio

Guys I like the idea of new content type page called a mantle page.  But we don't have the engineering resources to make it happen even if we decided to go that route. It's alot more complex than it looks.


@fesak: Fesak I'll get back to you on those Superman pages. Yes, looks like some of those break our wiki rules.

For now though, the ruling is to keep the wiki pages as we've always done them. G-Man's ruling is to add Bucky Barnes to an issue he's in even if he's wearing the Captain America costume.  I agree we want to have accurate character to issue relationships, but even more so, we want one page that is the primer article for Captain America, Batman, etc.  Remember the articles are the most valuable content we have.  And also, Comic Vine's wiki is meant to be an introductory to comics for the new reader.

BUT, we'll work on coming up with a better plan to address some of these issues.  Just saying for now, let's stick to our original rules.

Thanks guys.
Staff
#35 Edited by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said: 

" Guys I like the idea of new content type page called a mantle page.  But we don't have the engineering resources to make it happen even if we decided to go that route. It's alot more complex than it looks.



"
It wouldn't have to necessarily be a new content page (although that would be frikken awesome), just a page dedicated to that mantle itself. Example would be having a Captain America page, a Steve Rogers page, a Bucky Barnes page etc. It would allow itself to be a bit more versatile and a lot more accurate when crediting characters in the wiki.
   

G-Man's ruling is to add Bucky Barnes to an issue he's in even if he's wearing the Captain America costume.  

That's only going to lead to more confusion and inaccuracies in the wiki. Bucky Barnes is not always Captain America and Captain America is not always Bucky Barnes. You guys are looking to increase Google hits and gain web traffic that way. Well, the likelihood that somebody who sees the Captain America movie and wants to know more about him is going to be looking to read about Bucky is not very high at all. They're going to be looking for Steve. And if Bucky's credited as Captain America that's going to be massively confusing to a new reader. 


I agree we want to have accurate character to issue relationships, but even more so, we want one page that is the primer article for Captain America, Batman, etc.  

Which could be done by assigning the Captain America page, Batman page, Green Arrow page etc as a mantle page of sorts and having separate character pages for Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, etc etc. 


Comic Vine's wiki is meant to be an introductory to comics for the new reader.

Which is going to be confusing if people see Bucky Barnes credited in an issue as Captain America (which was also serving as the Steve Rogers page) and go looking for issues with Captain America (Steve Rogers) only to have it be Bucky Barnes. They way the pages are laid out right now cuts through that confusion, as characters are clearly labeled. If we add a new page that serves as the mantle page for Captain America, titled simply "Captain America" and has a summary of all of those who have held the mantle, couldn't that make everybody happy?
Moderator
#36 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said:

" @Red L.A.M.P. said: 


I agree we want to have accurate character to issue relationships, but even more so, we want one page that is the primer article for Captain America, Batman, etc.  

Which could be done by assigning the Captain America page, Batman page, Green Arrow page etc as a mantle page of sorts and having separate character pages for Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, etc etc. 

I personally like this idea and we're having very serious conversations about this.  But for now, please follow the current site rules.
Staff
#37 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

The Terry McGinnis page is titled Batman (McGinnis), should it be titled Terry McGinnis instead?

#38 Posted by Red L.A.M.P. (2828 posts) - - Show Bio
@CrimsonAvenger said:
" The Terry McGinnis page is titled Batman (McGinnis), should it be titled Terry McGinnis instead? "
Yes.  I'll fix it.
Staff
#39 Posted by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P. said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:

" @Red L.A.M.P. said: 


I agree we want to have accurate character to issue relationships, but even more so, we want one page that is the primer article for Captain America, Batman, etc.  

Which could be done by assigning the Captain America page, Batman page, Green Arrow page etc as a mantle page of sorts and having separate character pages for Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, etc etc. 

I personally like this idea and we're having very serious conversations about this.  But for now, please follow the current site rules. "
I will for sure. Thank you for taking it into consideration. I just think it could do a lot to streamline things, make things a little less confusing to new readers and new visitors to the site and also add to the accuracy of crediting characters. I don't really see a downside to it. 
Moderator
#40 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14860 posts) - - Show Bio

So I just had an Idea and I know that normally hurts the team, but I'm typing so I'm so i'm going to say it anyway.


Why don't we do it the people have had multiple people take on the name of the hero, like the Green Lanterns. There is a Green Lantern page and a page for each lantern. We could do it as the Captain America page and have everything the person holding the title has done and have a page for the people that were Captain America.

Well I thought it was a good idea.
#42 Posted by Mercy_ (92698 posts) - - Show Bio
@hydrabob: Already been addressed. :P
@Red L.A.M.P. said: 

@The Dark Huntress said: 

@Red L.A.M.P. said: 


I agree we want to have accurate character to issue relationships, but even more so, we want one page that is the primer article for Captain America, Batman, etc.  

Which could be done by assigning the Captain America page, Batman page, Green Arrow page etc as a mantle page of sorts and having separate character pages for Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, etc etc. 

I personally like this idea and we're having very serious conversations about this.  But for now, please follow the current site rules. "

   
Moderator
#43 Posted by hydrabob--defunct (14860 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress: oh...>.>
#44 Posted by fesak (7054 posts) - - Show Bio

 @Red L.A.M.P.:
So what are the rules exactly? Some clarification is greatly needed.
What to do when there are two or more characters that are completely unrelated but uses the same codename? For example; Spider-Girl or Prodigy.
What to do when there's a mantle, but more than one person are active at the same time? Example; Green Lantern, Hulk or Hawkeye
No alternate reality characters or some? Where to draw the line?

Moderator
#45 Posted by jordama (4225 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly Steve needs to have the name changed because he is not holding the mantle anymore. But I know G-Man has refused this.

#46 Posted by warcorpse (433 posts) - - Show Bio

There are 2 hawkeye pages.

#47 Posted by fesak (7054 posts) - - Show Bio
@fesak said:
"  @Red L.A.M.P.: So what are the rules exactly? Some clarification is greatly needed. What to do when there are two or more characters that are completely unrelated but uses the same codename? For example; Spider-Girl or Prodigy. What to do when there's a mantle, but more than one person are active at the same time? Example; Green Lantern, Hulk or Hawkeye No alternate reality characters or some? Where to draw the line? "
Bump
Moderator
#48 Posted by fbdarkangel (4884 posts) - - Show Bio

i think it's been fixed!

#49 Posted by humanfly26 (1488 posts) - - Show Bio
@Red L.A.M.P.: I would like to start a new topic on the Editing & Tools board which lays out what work needs to be done to bring the mantle pages to the current standards. Before I do this, I'd like to make sure I have a good understanding of the current rules regarding mantle pages. I know that I read about this when I first joined the site, but I can no longer find this mentioned in the rules that are published. I did my best to put together a tentative list of rules and questions about rules based on what's in this thread:

Rule 1: Thou shalt only create one Batman, Captain America, etc. page
This is the big one. These 'mantle pages' should include information on every person to wear the mantle, as well as all alternate versions of the character. They should also have ridiculously high appearance counts since they will count the appearances of all versions of this character.
-work to be done to fulfill this rule: Kid Flash, Speedy, Dr. Fate, Green Lantern, Clayface, Green Goblin and many others need 'primer pages' or mantle pages.

Rule 2: You may create additional pages with information on a specific bearer of the mantle, but this will be supplemental to the mantle page
For example, the Flash page contains information on the Flash mantle. Who was Flash and when. It has information on the origin, powers and history of Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West and Bart Allen all on one page. It has (or should have) the appearances of all four of these individuals when they wore the Flash mantle. If you just want to see the appearances of Wally, you would have to go to Wally's page.
-work to be done to fulfill this rule: Wonder Girl, Aqualad, Hourman, Atom, Blue Beetle and many others need information on all incarnations, not just the current one.
-optional: create distinct pages for Bruce Wayne, Oliver Queen, Steve Rogers, etc.

Question 1: Different characters with same name vs. mantle
A mantle is a superhero identity that various heroes can share. But there are also characters who share the same name, but are not related. For example... There is a Johnny Thunder who is the Golden Age bearer of the Thunderbolt, but there is also a cowboy named Johnny Thunder. Both of these characters are published by DC, but have absolutely nothing else in common. Currently they have two separate pages, is that okay?

Question 2: Teams, Friends, Enemies, Powers, Creators, Story Arcs, Pictures, etc. on mantle pages
I think we have established that every version of the character will have information and appearances listed in the mantle page. Does this rule extend to everything else on the page as well? For the Atom's mantle page, should we list the Suicide Squad as a team because the Adam Cray version of Atom was on it? Do we list the friends and enemies of Terry McGinnis on Batman's page?

Question 3: Most Prominent character on mantle page
I understand why Steve Rogers should be prominent on the Captain America page and Batman should be prominent on the Batman page. However, there are some cases where this is harder to determine. Who should be more prominent on Dr. Fate's page: the original Dr. Fate who had many more appearances or the current Dr. Fate?
#50 Posted by rubicon (24 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this thread might be more useful if it was moved to Editing & Tools.

Relating to this topic, take a look at how the Blue Beetle pages are structured.  No mantle page exists and the main page only consists of information relating to Jamie Reyes.  Arguably the most recognizable Blue Beetle, Ted Kord, is relegated to a secondary page and despite being two different characters, the first two Blue Beetles (Dan Garret and Dan Garrett), are combined on a single page( Dan Garret).  Some consistency is really needed with these types of pages. 

I think  jrh7925 was on the right track with some of the page moves.  In many cases, a character's real name is simply not identifiable enough without their mantle name.  For instance the Blue Beetle pages could be structured as such:
Blue Beetle (mantle)
Blue Beetle (Dan Garret)
Blue Beetle (Dan Garrett)
Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes)

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

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