Here I am... and for the record, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to be a Cap fan right now...One guy (@muyjingo) has a different, and debatable, if not valid, opinion. And he gets ganged up on and bullied? It's kind of pathetic...I've debated with muyjingo on this topic at length and in depth, and not ONCE has a mod needed to come in here and tell us to calm down. Yet it happened here. I hope that you guys (some of which are my friends) can just take a step back and calm down, then be civil towards each other.

Was there something that I said that was offensive? And gang up on him? Seriously?

And yes,he has a different opinion (which is fine). Personally,I don't agree with his opinion. That's fine,too (or at least,I hope it is). The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one.Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative....Am I not allowed to disagree,now? Or was this part not directed at me?

Was there something uncivilized that I did? Am I not allowed to disagree with someone now?

See, this is what I'm talking about. No where did muyjingo say Batman was super human. So that's wrong, and then you insult him by calling him irrational? The irony is that your tag team buddy is the one trying to make a claim of Batman being superhuman...

Tag team buddy? Yes,you've figured us out. We are secretly in cohoots,and you've figured out our sinister tactic of "tag teaming" up on him.

Sarcasm aside,I said that it's arguable that he can be called a borderline superhuman (or below) because of his feats. It isn't a far-fetched or baseless claim. I'm starting to think that you didn't read my responses,or that you're misinterpreting them by taking them out of context.

Are you people so insecure that they can't handle someone with a disagreeing opinion? I'm mean for crying out loud, does it REALLY matter if a poster, whom you don't really know, thinks that Cap isn't superhuman? Will it mean the end of the world? This is why I hardly ever come on here any more...

How did you get "insecure" and that I couldn't handle a different opinion from that? I just stated that,if anyone would say that Batman is borderline superhuman,that it is a point that can be argued by his feats. I don't know WHERE you got the rest of that from,but quite frankly it's just ridiculous and almost insulting...And who cares if I don't know him? What relevance does that have? Does that mean that I cannot talk to anyone on the vine because I don't know them personally?

And by the way,this is an open forum. Discussing comic books and the things that happen in them are what the forums are FOR. You act as if I slit my wrists just because he believes something different. I thought the initial point was to try to change the opinions of the other,if possible? And if not,then to each his/her own?

@muyjingo if you want to hang out and talk you'll find me at another forum...if you want, let me know. I'll PM it to you, (I think it would be rude to post it on another comic forum).

Also, I think the comic in which the scan for Cap throwing the rock at snipers...is from Captain America: The Chosen and I'm pretty sure it's non-cannon, I might be wrong, but since at the end of it Cap dies by getting stabbed in the eye with a screw driver, by a terrorist.

There now my rant is done.

One last thing, if anyone is curious, my belief is that I think that Cap is in fact Peak of Human Potential, meaning no other human can be physically better than him (and still be human), but there are many that could be, and are, in his range/class, Batman being one of them.

That is also a valid point (last sentence). I personally hold the exact same sentiments. By current standards,though,he would be called superhuman in my opinion.

Don't waste your time.

Clearly he doesn't know about 616 Cap. It's hilarious how he thinks Movie Cap is stronger than 616 Cap. I hope he isn't one of the Batfans that try to say that Cap and Bats are equals physically,while trying desperately to undermine/lowball Cap's feats....probably while overrating Batman's with tenuous links on both accounts.

Please,I am waiting......Actually,no,I'm not. I don't have time for this.I've come across too many people like this on other forums. You're probably just going to be stubborn,and stick to your ignorant opinion...which is probably just Batbias combined with wishful thinking.

@flameboy298: True. Batman is the epitome of peak human perfection through training for years on end in several different fields. Cap is pretty much lucky because he was injected with a super-steroid that saved him the time and effort to become peak human. Plus, it is called Super Soldier Serum. Not rocket science

@edouoble: and not to mention he tosses baddies around like their twigs.People make it seem like Cap and Batman are equals,but I dont see Batman kicking people around and they go flying in the air.

I'm glad the majority of people are viewing Cap in the correct manner. He is a super human like Deathstroke. Accept his feats in strength are much betterthen Slade.

The only silly idea in this thread is saying that Batman is a true Superhuman which is irrational that poster mujingo likes to post and even sillier saying his strength and durability is equal to Captain America.

But please,no insults. They aren't necessary :)

I think he is. He's called a SUPER-Soldier for a reason after all. If he were simply peak-human than he'd just be a "kinda-better soldier." :P

@slimj87d

This is a classic example of you over estimating a Cap feat and finding a way to dismiss a batman feat, much as creationists keep finding ways to dismiss evolution. Both characters have survived explosions numerous times, Batman without the benefit of a shield.

Then show me where batman has survived a explosion without his batsuit on, because I showed you 3 scans of data of his suit being flame retardant, kevlar and nomex meshed, and more. The scan I showed you was Gambit actually charging and using Captain America's suit as the explosion itself. I'll wait.

Yes, Batman has never done that because Vibranium does not exist in that DCU and Batman does not carry a shield. He has though performed equally impressive strength feats, like hurling around a 600 pound manbat or supporting 1200 pounds at once, pulling open a locked car trunk under water and hanging on inside a jet engine. All more impressive than the cap feats you just mentioned.

I don't think you understand what you are talking about. Go take a physics class. Diamonds are indescribable, yet no one can throw a diamond even though cardboard. Captain America demolished the top of a two story building throwing out 2 full grown men, I think you're also ignoring that feat.

Yeah, Cap can't jump 2 stories high. It's been shown once, it's not consistent, it's PIS. What's m ore PIS is the 20 story high feat, which is very much highballing. Even so, what's the point of posting feats for which there is no direct equivalent?

It's like me saying Cap never survived 24 seconds in space without a suit while Batman has. What does that prove exactly?

Then show me any peak human that can do the feat, the argument is what makes Captain America superhuman, the fact that he just leaped up 2 stories high and used gymnastics to launch himself 10 to 20 stories isn't a superhuman feat? Your argument is that everything Captain America does is something a comic book peak human can do, then show me.

He runs at 3pmph. That was either due to PIS or because it was a tribute to the silver age. No matter what you say 2 showings of him running over 30mph 40 years apart is not consistent.

You're the only one that argues this, I've never seen anyone else try and deny that Captain America has ran at 60 MPH. @tg1982, defend your friend here. You said he debates fairly.

Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

This is pretty much the same as Batman being stabbed with a shovel in the chest and continuing to fight without the help of any mystical lazarus pit.

No it is not, the Lazarus pits were obviously affecting both Batman and Ras Al Ghul, explain to me why the next morning the wound is completely gone and healed, unless you have proof that Batman has a healing factor. Even Citizenbane, who is say is a Batman expert ended up deleting his post after relooking over the events.

Okay, so lets say the story is truly canon and the shovel thing did happen legitimately. It's not even a equal feat in comparison, captain America didn't get stabbed, he ripped a giant chunk out of himself, fought for hours afterwards and fell 100s of stories off a launch pad and continued to fight. Batman was shoveled, fought Ras and they both fell in the pit a few minutes or even seconds aftewards. How is that equal?

His shield card states he's enhanced:

His Marvel universe handbook entries consistently states him as peak.

I've explained all this to Slim before but he is incapable of considering the evidence. He is essentially religious in his opinions of Cap, which means he is irrational.

Feel free to read through the thread Slim mentioned and see his desperate attempts to defend the 10 or so PIS feats to try and argue Cap is superhuman. One of them is a figure of speech, which is still hilarious.

We also have no source for Brubaker saying Steve is enhanced (not that it matters)

This will probably be my last reply in this thread...unless I can't refuse the bait or someone makes an interesting/valid argument.

@twix_right_side

So, let me reply to the last post I didn't reply to, then everyone else.

More bullet points.

1. So what's your point here? That I was being petty? Yes, you caught me. I can only be civil for so long when confronted with constant childishness. Bingo. Petty is Petty,though. No matter what. Even I was being such in this thread.
2. Actually, that's exactly what you implied. I can quote the relevant section if you doubt it. You were saying you and the people who agree with you hold the opinion most cap fans share, which simply isn't true (in terms of him being greater than ultimate cap). That wasn't really my opinion. I said that,if a person wanted to say that,by feats,that 616 Cap is stronger than Ultimate Cap,then they will be able to support it. However,it's my opinion that 1610 is stronger than 616,and that's the opinion that most comic fans (and Cap fans) share.
3. You've seen me in countless threads before you joined, not supporting my argument? I always do my best, if I don't have a scan I will detail my reasoning. I think you're either made this up or dismissed what I was saying. Can you find one thread where I am not supporting my argument? A link to such a thread would be great, as I doubt it exists. My stance on the "seeing faster feat" is not based on assumption at all, just cautious interpretation. It's the cap fans who are convinced it means he sees in bullet time, which is nothing but assumption. Not that you weren't supporting your argument (you support most of your arguments from what I've seen of you),it's just that your support is tenuous and not supported by the scans. They are almost stretching it imo. So that's not what I was talking about (and unless there is another MuyJingo on the vine,then I am not making this up...unless you want me to search through ComicVine forums for an old thread?). Also,you say that it's nothing but assumption what "Cap fans" believe,but it's not. It's actually a logical interpretation based off of Sharon's amazement. There was no implication or anything towards seeing the weapon. If that were the case,he wouldn't say that he was "seeing the bullets faster".Sharon asked how he can dodge bullets. There was literally no emphasis or mention of a weapon. That's why I believe you are grasping,and that's why I disagreed.

Every Cap scan I've seen,especially the ones presented,seem consistent and well supported by their arguments. The arguments that you give do not. That's why I generally disagree. I don't really see much,or any,that is supported by the scans in your argument,or with what has been consistently shown.

1. Well that's what you've said for every scan I've ever uploaded. Just wanted to point out again how it's nonsense that you say I'm not supporting my argument. Not what I'm saying.
2. ok.
3. -
4. So you are saying everyone has different interpretation and because it is all interpreted every interpretation is equally valid? Sorry, but no. And I agree, they conveyed what they needed to in the panel, which is not that Steve see's in bullet time.
5. He didn't say he sees bullets. He said he sees faster. Not what I'm saying at all,and in fact it's quite the opposite (I'm not sure if you understand what I am trying to say). What I'm saying is that not every interpretation is valid. And she said how does he dodge bullets so easily. The topic at hand is bullets....he said he sees faster. There is not much interpretation.
6. -
7. So if you know how it works then you know it's reliable, so why did you try and dismiss it?
8. Folk such as slim and krauser tend to highball cap feats (many which are PIS) while lowballing or dismissing batman's feats. I do think a single instance of cap doing something above his power level is PIS. That's kind of the definition. And by the same time,I notice that you undermine Cap's feats A LOT and highball some of Batman's,and some of the logic you apply to Cap feats to undermine them is not applied to Batman ones. For example,Batman has only held on to a plane engine,what,once? However,it seems consistent (in my opinion) with things he has done in the past.
9. Why are you talking about CV rules? It has nothing to do with that. I'm just saying 5 is a suggestion for feats to be consistant before they are not PIS. Nothing to do with CV rules, relax. And no where do we have to go by 5. So I just don't really want to go by such a suggestion. There is no rule on the forums (as in,Comicvine forums,the site which we're discussing on) that we have to go by 5 or 3 or 4 or anything specific like that.
10. Your experience is limited if you think that comic book fandom is not divided on this issue, yes. Threads on Cap being superhuman or not go into the thousands, because it is debated equally by both sides. So yes, glad you agree that it was limited. Yeah,that's exactly an example of disingenuity. No my experience isn't limited,and I am WELL aware that comic fans are divided on a LOT of issues,like this one. So I don't think you got the point at what I was saying. So no,I didn't agree.
11. -
12. I'm not getting sidetracked into proving that. Not when one of your buddies slimj89 already made a great post explaining why ultimate cap is superior. I couldn't do a better job myself as I don't know the character as well. So your knowledge of the character is limited? Not that it matters,since it seems to be true. Ultimate Cap is seen by most as the superior to 616 fans,and I concur.
13. As above.

The point of a debate is to look at things from an objective standpoint to make a conclusion based off of the facts presented. Clearly,that is not happening,especially when one's mind is already made up.

Exactly. When you ignore evidence and don't bother to investigate it shows a strong bias and a lack of interest in trying to come to establish any sort of objective truth.Except that I haven't done that. Not at all. Disagreeing with "evidence" is not the same thing as ignoring it,so that point is out the window.

For the record,it seems that you actually do make comments like this and try to pass them off as "PIS" or dismiss them in some way,shape,or form.So excuse me if I was cynical,and remain so.

No, I don't, and I would appreciate it if you stop accusing me of acting like this. I consider a feat PIS if it has only been shown once or twice over a great span of time (like Cap's running feat). If it is consistantly shown, i.e. once every two years or so, then it clearly isn't PIS. And who decided on this limit? PIS is usually when a character does something that they normally are not shown to do outside of their limits,Cap's superhuman speed is something that isn't exactly new to him. It doesn't have to be shown every 2 years,or 1 year. If that's the case,most comic book feats are "PIS". No one decided on this limit.

And by the way,I've already seen your "evidence", and this entire thread,and in the other,they seem to continue to follow this trend. I think I've seen what I've needed to.

See, this is funny, because you have yet to actually attack a single point of my argument or make a single argument yourself. Nothing but ad hominems. "You're this type of person" and "I've seen what I needed to" etc etc. I've made a strong case, you may not agree with it but attack my argument, not me. You've yet to do that. Except I have. One in particular is the "seeing faster" scan. And that's what we were discussing the whole time. And by the way,calling other people "kid" and replying with equally hostile remarks doesn't exactly help your case.

Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion.

You've been reading for years apparently. So why not make an argument based on one of my posts where I supply evidence and make an argument, because you've given absolutely no evidence that you even acknowledge my argument as valid. Not that you disagree and have a reason for doing so, but that you don't even bother acknowledging the argument I'm making. I'm really confused,because I am not sure if you've been reading what I've been typing this whole time,Muyjingo. We were discussing the bullet feat. I am saying that I disagree with your claims on the feat,your claims about Batman/Cap,and,well,a lot of things.

And honestly,it doesn't matter. I doubt that anything I say will get accepted or won't be dismissed,so me not saying anything will have the same effect.

Can you show me where I have dismissed anything you've said? How about every Cap scan that was discussed by slim or the others? Not exactly anything I've said,but more what they've said.

And I cannot say that your reasoning or the arguments presented are supported by the scans, and seems to be backed by speculative information.

Yet again you don't make any specific argument, just dismissing my entire argument. What is the speculative information? Which argument in particular is not supported by a corresponding scan? Look above. I am not repeating myself.

And to be completely honest,I have seen you do that very exact same thing to Captain America (dismissing them as "exaggerated" or "PIS" or any of the other ways you dismissed them) in this thread and multiple others in your arguments,while doing the inverse for Batman. It's a bit ironic in my opinion.

It's certainly not ironic, even if you were correct. So you're saying I dismiss Cap feats as PIS while I don't acknowledge Batman feats as PIS? All the feats may well be PIS, but that doesn't change anything as far as them having equal feats and so therefore drawing the conclusion that they are equal.

I HIGHLY doubt that they are all PIS. And I didn't see anything convincing to support the claim that they were equals.

the second one isn't canon because of DC's reboot.....unfortunately,but that is another thorn in my side

For the purposes of this argument, that's irrelevant. Actually,it is relevant. Because it didn't happen anymore. It's essentially an alternate universe version of the character. They are distinctly and completely different. Are we not using current versions? Or can we cherry pick from both sides (New 52 and Pre-New 52) to our convenience? It's like me using 616 and 1610 Cap feats all the same.

Batman is one of the strongest peak humans in comics in my opinion,but he isn't on Cap's level in mine.

So elaborate on why. Because,in my opinion,Cap has superior feats. This is consistent with what I've seen.

Easy troll. I never claimed Batman was superhuman and the majority of cap vans do not agree with you.

@slimj87d

Always the same old feats. They have been debunked numerous times yet you still don't listen and just blindly repost, like people who endlessly quote the bible even when it's been explained to such a fanatic why they are wrong.

Cap falling from a height and crushing a car isn't a feat showing him to be superhuman, it is barely a durability feat. A heavy wait falling from a large height will crush a car. That's just basic physics, even Punisher was shown to crush a car.

What does that have to do with anything?Crushing a car is not the focus of the feat or what is impressive. Batman's done the same. The impressive part is falling 200 feet and not showing pain. That is what is impressive. A human cannot fall 200 feet and be unfazed.

2. Been shown to take and survive an explosion like Cap has. Batman has walked out of a explosion but we never saw the context behind what happened, we've seen cap actually take an explosion that destroyed and blew apart trees.

This is a classic example of you over estimating a Cap feat and finding a way to dismiss a batman feat, much as creationists keep finding ways to dismiss evolution. Both characters have survived explosions numerous times, Batman without the benefit of a shield.

But Batman has his suit and Cape. His Cape,in the pre-new 52 universe,has been described as being able to take a "howitzer shell" much to Roy Harper's amazement.

3. Batman has never thrown and pitched objects hard enough to destroy and slice vehicles in http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/60791/3220577-avx-zone_007.jpghalf. Cap has. He's destroyed tanks, cars, helicopters, etc. His shield weighs 12 lbs. Cap has also thrown a 150+ piece of concrete through a 2 story building destroying it and also sending 2 160+ pound men through it.

Yes, Batman has never done that because Vibranium does not exist in that DCU and Batman does not carry a shield. He has though performed equally impressive strength feats, like hurling around a 600 pound manbat or supporting 1200 pounds at once, pulling open a locked car trunk under water and hanging on inside a jet engine. All more impressive than the cap feats you just mentioned. I don't really think that those are more impressive,but what I think is more impressive and what you think is more impressive is completely irrelevant. Vibranium does not have to exist,because Batman can do that with Nth Metal,or Prometheum. Both exist in DC,not Marvel. Vibranium does not have specific cutting properties,and neither does Cap's shield. It has never been shown or hinted at having such properties on panel. But Batman has not done the same....ever. You cannot claim the feats are the same if they do not involve the same factors. They don't even involve the same objects (not counting shield),so that point is just rubbish and ignores important details that can make all the difference.

Batman has never leaped 2 stories high like Captain America has nor has he propelled himself using gymnastics 20 stories high or a front flip with a 100 lb piece of ice on his legs

Yeah, Cap can't jump 2 stories high. It's been shown once, it's not consistent, it's PIS. What's more PIS is the 20 story high feat, which is very much highballing. Even so, what's the point of posting feats for which there is no direct equivalent?

It's like me saying Cap never survived 24 seconds in space without a suit while Batman has. What does that prove exactly?

Just because it's shown once doesn't mean that it's not consistent. If that's the case,A LOT of Batman feats are inconsistent,and are PIS. For example,how often does Batman hang on the outsides of Jets near the engine? How often does he hurl around Manbats? You cannot dismiss everything he says as "highballing" or PIS.

Ran at 60 MPH while holding 160 lbs of weight in his arms and back (Shield and Bucky).

He runs at 3pmph. That was either due to PIS or because it was a tribute to the silver age. No matter what you say 2 showings of him running over 30mph 40 years apart is not consistent. The time apart literally has NOTHING to do with anything if it is still canon,what matters is if he has shown that he has done something similar before.

Ripped a large chunk of his chest out and then hours later survived a fall of 100s of feet onto the ground after fighting Jet and Zola.

This is pretty much the same as Batman being stabbed with a shovel in the chest and continuing to fight without the help of any mystical lazarus pit. Having a huge gaping wound in your chest that you ripped out is not the same as being impaled with a shovel. Both are impressive,but again,different factors,different situations. One is where a person is hungry,starving,beaten,etc and he is ripping out a HUGE wound in his chest of his own will. Batman was impaled by Ra's in the chest. You seem to be ignoring the important details that add the context and make all the difference.

His shield card states he's enhanced:

His Marvel universe handbook entries consistently states him as peak.

I've explained all this to Slim before but he is incapable of considering the evidence. He is essentially religious in his opinions of Cap, which means he is irrational.

Feel free to read through the thread Slim mentioned and see his desperate attempts to defend the 10 or so PIS feats to try and argue Cap is superhuman. One of them is a figure of speech, which is still hilarious.

We also have no source for Brubaker saying Steve is enhanced (not that it matters)

Didn't he just provide a direct quote?

This is why you seem like a troll.

You obviously don't think I supported my case well with panel that support what I was saying, but you refuse to say why, then you compliment anyone who says anything supporting Cap, regardless of if it is well supported or not.

Again,saying that others seem like trolls,or claiming that they have a bias or any of that doesn't help your argument at all. I believe that,to the ones providing evidence,that they are doing it and coming to conclusions that are directly supported by the scans. Your evidence for your arguments doesn't seem supported by the scans shown,and the evidence for them seems to be stretching it. Like the bullet feat. I don't think that your conclusion is shown or supported by the scan.

Any way,I've been following Cap for,like,years and every scan I've seen supports it (even though I was a follower of Batman first,still am,and he's the guy that got me into comics). So I concur. There's more than enough evidence,so much so that it's basically a core aspect of the character over the years. His feats that have been a core aspect of him since his beginning and leave no room for debate,and the writer quote is just icing on the cake.

So 3 or 4 silver age feats, and 5 modern feats most of which are not consistent or recurring is evidence enough for you? Since you have such a low threshold for accepting cap is superhuman and such a high threshold to say Batman is equal to him, I would say you (as well as slim and krauser) are especially prone to confirmation bias. Yeah,this isn't helping your credibility,and is probably a reason why I'm siding with them. You cannot claim that a person that you literally know NOTHING about holds a bias because they don't agree with you. Low threshold? I use to think that Cap could only lift 800 lbs at max and was just an ordinary guy with a shield. Please don't say that I have a low threshold for Cap,it's just another weak assertion. I can say that you are utterly refusing to acknowledge even a single ONE of his feats,and apply the same logic to you,but I'm not.

However,it can be said that,by feats,that Batman is a borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark. By FEATS. On paper,he's definitely a peak human,and I don't think that that's changing anytime soon. But it isn't too far fetched to say that he's borderline,or at least,directly below the mark....like DIRECTLY below (because it can be argued). :)

Batman isn't anywhere near Superhuman, and either is Cap. It's fine to say they are enhanced or peak, hell even if you want to say they are superhuman. What's important is that they are shown to be equal. :)

Except I don't believe that they are equal. And I had an open discussion with a Batfan some time before,and he argued that by feats,Batman can be considered borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark (and he supported his case well),which is why I basically think that his argument was well supported by the scans. That was his opinion (that I think stands on rational ground),and it's not that I agree with him,it's that I think that it can be argued. This is yours.

@tg1982 said:

Here I am... and for the record, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to be a Cap fan right now...One guy (@muyjingo) has a different, and debatable, if not valid, opinion. And he gets ganged up on and bullied? It's kind of pathetic...I've debated with muyjingo on this topic at length and in depth, and not ONCE has a mod needed to come in here and tell us to calm down. Yet it happened here. I hope that you guys (some of which are my friends) can just take a step back and calm down, then be civil towards each other.

Thank's dude. I knew I wasn't crazy. ;) Twix and Krauser and Slim make quiet a group. They all will support and agree with each other when disagreeing with me, even whey they don't support each other. It's kind of funny to see them agreeing with each other but then disagree with me. For example, Slim thinks ultimate cap is stronger than 616 cap with which twix and krauser disagree...yet they don't discuss that with each other. Yeah,it's clear that you didn't quite pay attention to much that I've said,because that's not what I think. At all.

For the record, mods came in (I assume) because I flagged a post, due to the insults and hostility getting a bit much.

Anyway, appreciate the support. Nice to talk with a cap fan who is rational and can agree to disagree.

@twix_right_side

Was there something that I said that was offensive? And gang up on him? Seriously?

Like I said before. Agreeing with anyone who says I'm wrong, dismissing me without considering what I'm saying...yeah..ganging up.

Yeah,except that I am considering what you are saying. That is a ridiculous and false claim that is on faulty ground.

The point is that I read his responses,read his blog,etc and then see if I agree/disagree with his argument and why. I've already stated that I disagree with his argument,and why that is the case with each one.

No, you haven't. You've given absolutely no reason why you disagree. You just keep saying you disagree and parroting that the scans don't support what I'm saying or that I don't give evidence, but you never actually say why or show an instance. Really? I haven't said WHY I disagree? I haven't said that I think that your interpretation of the scan isn't supported and why? Have you a read a single argument of mine??? And when you made a claim,I say why I agree/disagree,and why it is/isn't supported by the evidence.

.Personally,I don't find his argument to be one (at least,the ones about Cap,not the ones that are exclusively about Batman) supported by the facts,that's my prerogative

So say why. At least then I can respond to something with evidence instead of vague claims.

tg1982 made some good points in his last thread why your posts were offensive or baiting. I would like to discuss this civilly but for this to happen you need to actually address my argument and make a response...not just dismiss me. You down?

Super doesn't mean super powers. It just means greater than the base. Batman is superhuman in a technical sense due to him being so far above average, but he would not be classed as super human in the context we are discussing. In the same way super solider serum doesn't mean a serum that will give super powers, just a serum that will make him greater than normal.

@twix_right_side said:

But all of Batman's training wouldn't be remotely possible since he grew up in money. I mean,his family was the wealthiest and most well loved family in Gotham. It wouldn't be financially possible to travel the world training with the world's finest if he didn't have the abundance in wealth he had. Whereas Cap grew up during the worst depression in the country as Irish Immigrants (I believe they were Irish,so imagine the social strife that they had to experience) and went through hell just to survive,and his father was an abusive douche. Basically,Batman grew up with privilege,Cap didn't.

Batman didn't have access to his money when traveling and was presumed dead for many years. He trained with the best ebcause he sought them out and found them due to being determined.

He used his wealth to travel the world,did he not? Or did he just board a plane without paying?

@krauser99 said:

Now for the nonsensical statement that muj stated that "Movie" Cap is far..far stronger then 616 Cap.

Where is that scan from? Is it canon? Has 616 cap been shown to punch through steel, or through a submarine window under water? Chased down a getaway car on foot?

A decent estimates and calculation of Cap's overall strength.

• Original Captain America is a 800lbs avg -1100lbs max lifter. 1100lbs avg-1600lbs max bench press.

• Movie Captain America could be a 1800lbs avg - 2200lbs max lifter. 2200lbs avg-2600lbs max bench press

• Ultimate Captain America is a 3500lbs avg- 4500lbs max lifter. 4500lbs avg-5000lbs max bench press

When we say max lifter or "lift" it is lifting or holding a particular weight using both hands stretched up and over one's own head while standing still. Military press and clean and jerk can be qualified as we

Krauser is giving you feats (although he's being a bit insulting),Slim is doing it,and you dismiss them as Cap fans with some bias ,and you do the same to me essentially because I disagree with you?!?!

Yes,you gave reasons,and you gave scans,but they DO NOT seem to be supported by the feats,or even by your logic in my opinion. I'm not exactly following any of it,and I don't see any of it stated or supported by scans. Add that on to the fact that you completely ignore and dismiss other feats as "highballing" or "PIS" when it doesn't seem to disagree with what they've shown in the past,and that Batman's aren't (not saying that they are,by the way). Put simply,I don't think that anything is going to convince you,and you seem to like to make the weak claim that I have a bias. People aren't saying these things about you or disagreeing because they have a bias,it's because your arguments are poorly supported (you gave reasons,but the reasons are not supported by the proof),you throw around names and claim that people have a bias (not that they haven't done the same to you),and you aren't really being consistent (the PIS things that I've mentioned). By your logic,I can say that you aren't "considering the evidence",and that you have a "confirmation bias" (not saying that you do,by the way). They provided proof to support their reasoning. I could easily and fluidly follow how they came to their assertion,and it seems to be supported by the scans,and it seems consistent with the conclusion I came to (even at the time when I thought that Cap was a normal human with a shield). I agree with them. I don't agree with them and their reasoning because I'm a Cap fan with a bias,and I'm more loyal to Batman anyway since I came into comics because of him,so all I'm saying is that your argument (just ANY of them) seems to be on faulty reasoning,and isn't supported by what is shown.So..... I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree,because we'll just waste time and go in a circle. And frankly,this argument is going nowhere. Completely ignore this post if you want (heck,we might as well,since we aren't gonna agree on this). So agree to disagree.

I have an exam tomorrow,so I must leave now.

@muyjingo said:Easy troll. I never claimed Batman was superhuman and the majority of cap vans do not agree with you.

@muyjingo said:Hanging on inside a jet engine nacelle is practically superhuman,

@krauser99 said:

Now for the nonsensical statement that muj stated that "Movie" Cap is far..far stronger then 616 Cap.

@muyjingo said:Where is that scan from? Is it canon? Has 616 cap been shown to punch through steel, or through a submarine window under water? Chased down a getaway car on foot?

A decent estimates and calculation of Cap's overall strength.

• Original Captain America is a 800lbs avg -1100lbs max lifter. 1100lbs avg-1600lbs max bench press.

• Movie Captain America could be a 1800lbs avg - 2200lbs max lifter. 2200lbs avg-2600lbs max bench press

• Ultimate Captain America is a 3500lbs avg- 4500lbs max lifter. 4500lbs avg-5000lbs max bench press

@krauser99 said:All your estimations are wrong. Yes it is main stream Cap universe from WW2. He later fights Red Skull with cosmic cube.

@krauser99 said:It's not like the speed of the get away car was shown and it had to make turns as movie Cap did take short cuts as well. Please I already showed a similar feat comparison between movie cap and 616 Cap. The magnet feat of Comic Cap is far superior then Movies Cap's magnet feats. Notice how you just ignore what you don't like? As Cap has also stopped a falling elevator with his shield. To throw his shield through a tank.... to even dead stop a class 10 punch. Pulling a supply truck through the desert. Plus it is 2200 lbs bench. One side of the bench is 1100 lbs. So both sides of the total weight would be 2200 lbs. Plus it wasn't even shown as Cap's max either.

Oh....wait. You only add it up when it is Batman benching 500 lbs right? And you don't do the same for Cap. Show some type of consistency will you.

Gallery

@krauser99 said:Your off on everything that you say. Bashes through a submarine panel. He didn't even use the shield edge like Movie Cap did on a tank panel. Stopping a class 10 punch easily. Stopping a runnaway car. Throwing his shield through a tank turret and it's not a panel like Movie Cap did on a tank. 616 Cap strength feats wreck Movie Cap's feats. Especially the magnet feat that you ignore. The third one he is shown holding a friggin car with just his strength alone. Buck is only holding down Cap for weight and not grabbing the car or the pole. As the scan states Cap has the strength of a 2 ton truck.

As for Ult Cap. He I must admit has some good feats that can match with 616 Cap. But 616 Cap majority feats are better over all. He only gets less slack since his bio has him at a 4. While 616 Cap is at a 3. As Cap's dilemma seem to be fans like you comparing his peak human with Bat's peak human label, as being one in the same in strength. But hand books low ball Cap as they don't even mention his "rapid" healing ability in his hand books.

Seriously Cap is way stronger then Batman or Movie Cap.

All you can do now is just ignore these feats, say PIS, or say the don't count because it was to long ago.....LOL.

I am unaware of any Cap fans that dismiss this scan, Gambit fans usually dismiss the feat until they are shown Cap's other durability showings. It's usually a Gambit fan that doesn't know much about Cap.

Lastly, I asked for batman tanking a explosion without the Batsuit to be a comparable feat, otherwise he still has the bullet proof cape, and the other materials protecting him.

Yes, Batman has minimal protection from his Batsuit, just as Cap has protection from his armored suit.

It's ridiculousto try and claim if Batman survives it is due to his suit but if Cap survives it's due to his durability.

An explosion like that should have at the least, had him bleeding.

Anyway, here is a link to one of many threads with people disputing that feat.

Not necessarily. Just because you expect him to bleed doesn't mean that he should based on his durability showings. Your expectations=/= scans and facts

Also,I don't think that anyone said that about Batman and his suit,but his suit does play a large role and is known to protect him.

Wrong, his armor was WHAT blew up.

Exactly. His armor took the brunt, not him. It's a feat for his armor, not him. His armor was the thing that blew up. It was kinetically charged by Gambit. As in,his armor was basically a bomb. It's not really a hard thing to understand,unless you're purposefully trying to misunderstand it.

What details of what diagrams? Captain America's shield weighs 12 lbs, it is blunt as it would slice people to death everytime he bashed people in. The material hardly allows him to throw it through tanks, vehicles, etc. Yet he still,somehow,manages to throw it with enough force to slice them in half. He's done it to multiple aircrafts,he's done it to cars,tanks,etc.So.....

To debunk your feat that Cap landing on a car or leaving impacts in the ground was somehow impressive. It isn't, it's basic physics. Again,that isn't the focus of the feat at all. Landing on a car and leaving a dent from 200 feet up isn't something normal people do. It's like you somehow completely missed that point,and I don't even know how. So no,like other "debunkings" of yours....

In any case, I found an equivalent feat and am curious if you will say it is not equivalent. And I don't see Batman falling 200 feet. The two feats are not he same. I don't even know how you can say that they are the same. It's an unfounded assumption,and it's almost desperate.

And another one, free falling. Not equivalent to the one from the jet but equivalent to other cap feats you posted. Again,not really. This is another silly unfounded assumption of yours.

If you want the equation, it's this.

1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield ^2 = Energy penetrated (energy the material received to go through non-linear stress) + 1/2 * mass of shield * velocity of shield after penetration ^2

There is no material hardness in that equation, which is what you are trying to argue. Lead bullets can be softer than steel yet they travel at speeds with a good amount of density to penetrate steel.

This is to do with me saying his feat had more to do with the shield than him?

A lot of the feats you posted were due to the shield more than him. Such as him blocking the heat from a rocket launch with his shield.

I am guessing you are talking about the shield through the truck feat. It is no doubt impressive, and no doubt it cannot be blamed solely on the shield.

But let me ask you this. Do you believe the truck feat consistent? Can you name other feats where he has shown to do anywhere near that much damage with his shield? Do you mean demolishing robots with his shield throws,ripping through machines,tearing tank turrets in half with his shield throw,etc?

The only other one that comes close is throwing his shield at the helicopter tail....but I think that was more to do with the tail spinning over something jammed in it than strength.

---

Let me ask you this. My argument is that Batman and Captain America are phsyical equals except for healing and running speed.

We both agree both men can beat up say 100 guys with guns without issue. They have both done things beyond the capabilities of any human in the real world.

Batman also has some miraculous feats that Cap does not have equivilant scans for. I've been playing catchup trying to show Batman feats close to Cap's feats.

The thing is I could easily post Batman feats more impressive than a lot of these cap fans. What then?

I honestly don't understand how you can say the two are not in the same league and physically equal. Or at the least, that it is not clear that Cap has an advantage over Batman.

Batman has multiple Strength feats that are beyond his capabilities and that I consider PIS, but I could easily paste 10 scans of things Cap, such as cap hanging on inside a jet engine or prying a trunk open under water.

We're talking about Batman swinging around 600 lbs vs Captain America throwing a 100+ lb as high as power lines (20+ ft) demolishing not just one wall, but a second wall and sending out 2 adults (150 lbs). I don't see it as a comparable feat, and lastly I debunked your 600 lb claim. manbats weight 200 lbs. I thought he was talking about all 3 man-bats he was fighting at once. You like databooks don't you? I hope you fix the time to fix that in your blog.

Err, in the panel I posted of Batman swinging around a 600 pound manbat, he states quite clearly that it weighs 600pounds. Did you even look at the feat or just dismiss it confidently?

And he didn't demolish a wall. I don't know why you keep saying that. It's an unfounded assumption.

Hurling around 600 pounds for a longer period of time than it takes to throw 100 pounds 20 feet is more impressive.

I can throw lets say 10 pounds 10 feet. If I can swing 100 pounds around for a minute that's more impressive. It isn't a burst of strength but endured strength.

Fair enough, Cap hasn't had the chance to hang from a jet, and as of right now, I don't' have time to research the times where Bruce has shown a upper limit to his leaping ability.

---

Well, thank you. Just trying to give an example of something cap hasn't done yet is "Superhuman".

I don't' think the feat is equal, because Bruce just had a open wound, Cap has pieces of his body missing. Bruce only fought a few more minutes after his wound and they fell in the pits afterwards, Cap actually went on for hours and traveled miles to only fight Zola and fall 100s of feet off a launching pad.

Do you see the assumption you're making here to discredit the feat?

1. You don't know how long they fought for. It could have been an hour.

2. They DID NOT fall in the pits afterwards.

I agree the feats are not exactly equal, I think they are close enough to show the characters as equal in capabilities.

@twix_right_side

This is the last time I'm replying to you.

@tg1982 called you out on how you were being needlessly antagonistic, then you PMed me to apologize and ask for forgiveness, then you're back to the same stuff here.

You remind me of myself on forums at 16. Aggressive for no reason, feeling I need to prove myself and "win", using words I don't understand but having a heart in the right place and not wanting to make enemies. That seems like you to a tee.

1. None of that is relevant in the slightest.

2. Yeah,that may be accurate about you,but none of that even closely resembles me. It's entirely false. And it's not just that it's false,but that it's completely unfounded and ridiculous. But you seem to be so well at doing that. Honestly,that may have been one of the most desperate things that you've said.

The thing is, you don't have to win this. There isn't anything to win by treating it as a competition. If you treat it as an opportunity, we might come to understand each others views and gain mutual respect for one another. I'd like that.

1. Yes,I'm the one being antagonistic here....even though you called quite a few people "trolls" and "kids",and you keep talking in a condescending manner. I don't even think I need to point out the hypocrisy here.
2. That second part is so irrelevant and false. It's,again,another unfounded assumption of yours. Thank god that you aren't a psychologist

Now, let me respond to some of your points.

1. That is what you said. I can quote the sections where you claim exactly that, verbatim. 5. Yes, there is. The subject was dodging bullets. He said he sees faster. That does not mean he sees in bullet time, and it's fanciful for you to assert that. But if you're set in thinking that's the only valid interpretation, then there's no point in banging my head against a brick wall. So the logical assumption is that he sees the weapons drawn,even though there was literally no mention of that? Even though nothing in the scan supports it? It's quite literally a desperate leap of faith in an attempt to dismiss it. "Do you see these assumptions you are making to discredit it?"

8. You're absolutely correct. My point that seems to have eluded you is that it doesn't make sense to take a handful of PIS/standalone non recurring feats and use them to elevate the character. That's what people are doing for Cap, and so I'm doing the same for Batman, to show that I think both characters are equal, even if you highball or lowball their feats, as long as you do it equally for both sides. If we don't lowball any feats from either side, there is a standoff. Except that they aren't PIS when they are done consistently. It's one of the most misused terms on the forum.

The "cap side" is lowballing bat feats and highballing cap feats and I'm doing the opposite. If we just treat every feat as valid without finding reasons to dismiss them, how would the characters not be equal? We don't look at feats in an attempt to dismiss them. We look at feats based on their consistency.

The only way that happens is by starting to make desperate arguments like the batsuit is responsible and not batman etc etc.

9. No, we don't have to by five. It was just a suggestion. Nowhere did I say it was required, it was just an idea to try and improve the debate by having a rule, you know, some consistency and order. it was a SUGGESTION. See how you're being needlessly aggressive by assuming the worst and arguing against it? Because it was a silly suggestion. End of story.

10. Actually, you've shown yourself up here as you contradict yourself. Earlier in the thread that is exactly what you said, that the majority of cap fans agree with you and slim and krauser and I was obviouslly trolling. Now, you correctly note cap fans are in fact divided on the issue. I'm glad. About what? 616 Cap being inferior to 1610? That's what most comic fans,and Cap fans seem to believe (as do I). But if a person wanted to argue the opposite,then they can do so given the feats. If you think that I said that 616 Cap is stronger than 1610 Cap,then go back and show me...please. Because if you think so,reading isn't exactly your strongest area....

12. Cool. Then check out the thread where @slimj87d claims otherwise and argue it with him. I have no idea what you're referring to,but whatever. As I said,this entire argument has gone nowhere,and goes in circles. It's as if you aren't even reading what is said,or that you're consciously ignoring them. I don't think that I disagreed with slim on any matter,but again....reading.

Except that I haven't done that. Not at all. Disagreeing with "evidence" is not the same thing as ignoring it,so that point is out the window.

Except all you made is vague claims. If you truly disagree with something then you should have stated WHY. You can see how foolish you look if you just keep making claims and never stating WHY you disagree, can't 't you? .....Except that you say that everything I said was vague,without stating why. I don't see anything vague in what I'm saying. In fact,it's like you just skimmed over my arguments....

And who decided on this limit? PIS is usually when a character does something that they normally are not shown to do outside of their limits,Cap's superhuman speed is something that isn't exactly new to him. It doesn't have to be shown every 2 years,or 1 year. If that's the case,most comic book feats are "PIS". No one decided on this limit.

You're being daft here, or lost in your anger/determination to win. As above, it was merely a suggestion. So what's so ridiculous about it? And by the way,again,you aren't a psychologist,so stop trying to make baseless assumptions about me. It's desperate.

And yes, feats that are shown very irregularly and are beyond a characters capabilities are PIS. Superman putting out a fire with his breath? Not PIS, and many examples. Superman turning back time (I know it was from a movie, but if you understand the point you don't need to argue it) certainly PIS. Batman hanging on inside a jet engine or walking out of an explosion unscathed? Without a doubt PIS. Except that I think that the plane feat is consistent with what he has shown in the past,but to each his own.

Except I have. One in particular is the "seeing faster" scan. And that's what we were discussing the whole time. And by the way,calling other people "kid" and replying with equally hostile remarks doesn't exactly help your case.

I don't have anything else to say on the seeing faster scan. You think there is only one accurate interpretation, when I think that's ridiculous. If we have a scan of him seeing in bullet time I'll humbly bite my tongue and by you a cake. Actually,not really. It's just that other interpretations that I've heard have,so far,been idiotic and barely supported. If we actually have any support of him seeing the gun before it's fired,then I'll do the same.

I'm being as hostile as I feel necessary, certainly less than other folk are being to me. My case doesn't need help, so I'm not to worried about this. Other people coming across this will see it for what it is - a bored adult arguing with some kids. That's called being a hypocrite. So stop trying to complain about how hostile people are being to you when you do the same. And if that's how you dismiss a person's arguments,by immaturely calling them "kids" (obvious irony and common flaw when people say that),then I'm just wasting time here.

Don't try to tell me that I'm not interested in "looking at any evidence that may challenge my opinion",that is a completely baseless and weak assertion.

Then for once in this debate pick an argument I have made concerning a Batman feat being equal to a cap feat and tell me why it isn't. That's what we were doing -______-

I'm really confused,because I am not sure if you've been reading what I've been typing this whole time,Muyjingo. We were discussing the bullet feat. I am saying that I disagree with your claims on the feat,your claims about Batman/Cap,and,well,a lot of things.

The bullet feat is one of the things we have been discussing. You've been saying you disagree without ever saying why, aside from vague claims. Which makes it seem like you have no argument.

.......That was almost a sad attempt at dismissing my argument. Along with that entire "vague points" BS. Reason? Because you haven't told me why it was vague,what was vague,etc....and you seemed to understand it perfectly when you made your replies. And really? I have no argument?

How about every Cap scan that was discussed by slim or the others? Not exactly anything I've said,but more what they've said.

Exactly, nothing you said. Thank you. Relevance? The scans were presented.

Look above. I am not repeating myself.

Thanks, because then you would just make some vague claim without giving a specific example. For some reason,I believe that you're just dodging now....

I HIGHLY doubt that they are all PIS. And I didn't see anything convincing to support the claim that they were equals.

Way to focus on the least significant part of the sentence and ignore my point. Followed by a vague claim. Fantastic. Yes. Because just about everything I say is a vague claim according to you,so I'm not going to waste any more effort or time doing that because it's almost like you're trying to not understand what I'm saying.....but I guess it's the same way that I was "not considering your argument". Desperate claims.....

Actually,it is relevant. Because it didn't happen anymore. It's essentially an alternate universe version of the character. They are distinctly and completely different. Are we not using current versions? Or can we cherry pick from both sides (New 52 and Pre-New 52) to our convenience? It's like me using 616 and 1610 Cap feats all the same.

It did happen. It isn't exactly clear what didn't happened, but DC's stance is it happened unless it didn't. You can research that yourself since I won't be replying again.Actually,I want support of that. You know,just like you expect other people to support their arguments (which is a common standard)? Like when you wanted slim to support the brubaker thing? I thought that it was,unless it was stated/referenced to happen,then we cannot assume so? "It happened unless it didn't" almost makes the scans irrelevant since it may not have gone down like that.

It's also not an alternative universe version of the character as it's in the same universe just a different timeline. Bruce is physically the same in both timelines.

Because,in my opinion,Cap has superior feats. This is consistent with what I've seen.

Maybe you should read up on what elaborate means. Hint: More than just a sentence.

Oh my god,it's like talking to a brick wall.

............

What does that have to do with anything?Crushing a car is not the focus of the feat or what is impressive. Batman's done the same. The impressive part is falling 200 feet and not showing pain. That is what is impressive. A human cannot fall 200 feet and be unfazed.

Slim was claiming otherwise. Batman has an equivalent feat that I posted at the start of this post, also not showing pain. The feats are not the same. They do not have the same factors involved. Not even close.

But Batman has his suit and Cape. His Cape,in the pre-new 52 universe,has been described as being able to take a "howitzer shell" much to Roy Harper's amazement.

Oh, please. That's nonsense. His cap, especially pre-52 was always getting mangled. Besides, he has several different suits. The one he wears that often is nowhere near that durable. Except that it's shown to deflect bullets before (for example,look at his new 52 Batman respect thread).

My mistake,the howitzer thing was what Roy said,and Bats' simply corrected him.

Cap has armor as well that is also bulletproof, fireproof etc. I think it's desperate to try and say Batman relies on his armor like that but Cap does not. Why is it desperate? That's like chalking up every Deathstroke durability feat as being due to his armor just because Batman does (not saying he does,but just setting an example/image). In terms of not getting bullets through him,that's all Cap's armor does. It doesn't absorb shock or anything like that. It has never been shown or stated to,while Batman's has been stated to offer him sophisticated protection.

I don't really think that those are more impressive,but what I think is more impressive and what you think is more impressive is completely irrelevant. Vibranium does not have to exist,because Batman can do that with Nth Metal,or Prometheum. Both exist in DC,not Marvel. Vibranium does not have specific cutting properties,and neither does Cap's shield. It has never been shown or hinted at having such properties on panel. But Batman has not done the same....ever. You cannot claim the feats are the same if they do not involve the same factors. They don't even involve the same objects (not counting shield),so that point is just rubbish and ignores important details that can make all the difference.

Finally, an argument.

You're right, I shouldn't ascribe the feat to vibranium. Batman hasn't done anything literally equivalent, but I think he has done things that are equivalent, i.e. showing the same amount of strength.

Then we get ourselves in a situation where I try to show something equally impressive that Cap doesn't have an equivalent feat for, like hanging on inside a jet engine. No human could do that. What then? It was due to his suit, right? That last part is in no way relevant,and it's almost taken out of context. Great job,mate.

And they aren't going to be written with interchangeable feats,or feats that are similar. That's almost impossible to expect.

Just because it's shown once doesn't mean that it's not consistent. If that's the case,A LOT of Batman feats are inconsistent,and are PIS. For example,how often does Batman hang on the outsides of Jets near the engine? How often does he hurl around Manbats? You cannot dismiss everything he says as "highballing" or PIS.

Well, you ignored the question. Cap has never survived 24 seconds in space and Batman has, what does that show? ....It's funny that you say that I make vague claims....

And yes, I agree it's a PIS feat. See above.

The time apart literally has NOTHING to do with anything if it is still canon,what matters is if he has shown that he has done something similar before.

LOL. Silver age comics were written for entertainment and not taken seriously. If it still matters, then is it valid that Thanos was arrested and taken into custody by the NYPD? That doesn't mean that silver age stories don't have out of character showings (Thanos thing you mentioned),or PIS involved as well. Does that mean that modern comics don't have those as well? So do we dismiss modern comic feats as well? Is every silver age feat dismissed,no matter how consistent? What you did was almost quite literally showing a "low showing" just to support your argument.

Having a huge gaping wound in your chest that you ripped out is not the same as being impaled with a shovel. Both are impressive,but again,different factors,different situations. One is where a person is hungry,starving,beaten,etc and he is ripping out a HUGE wound in his chest of his own will. Batman was impaled by Ra's in the chest. You seem to be ignoring the important details that add the context and make all the difference.

See my reply to Slim above. But you also seem to be ignoring that Bruce was tired and starved and had already been fighting before being impaled deep in the chest with a shovel, which yes leaves a huge gaping wound.. Again,the same factors are not involved,and are nowhere even close. In fact,the wounds weren't even the same size. Again,ignoring important details to try and chalk them up as the same.

Didn't he just provide a direct quote?

There is a block of text attributed to him that could have come from anywhere. The original forum it comes from is no longer up.

If you don't understand why that's a problem, then I can show you a different quote by Brubaker where he states Steve is not superhuman, only peak human and physically equal to Batman except for running speed and healing.

Again,saying that others seem like trolls,or claiming that they have a bias or any of that doesn't help your argument at all. I believe that,to the ones providing evidence,that they are doing it and coming to conclusions that are directly supported by the scans. Your evidence for your arguments doesn't seem supported by the scans shown,and the evidence for them seems to be stretching it. Like the bullet feat. I don't think that your conclusion is shown or supported by the scan.

The thing is, my case doesn't need help. I've supported it thoroughly enough, no matter how much you vaguely claim otherwise. You are right,you have supported it....but your "support" is actually desperate. It's tenuous. It's like me trying to dismiss every Spider-man strength feat in an attempt at trying to say that Batman and Spider-man are physical equals. That was a rough comparison,but you get the idea. So....your case is pretty much as "thoroughly" supported by the facts as saying that the moon is made out of cheese,or that Santa Claus exists....the leap of faith is too great for each of your "support".

It's funny you specifically chose the bullet feat, a feat I didn't provide an equivalent scan for. The bullet scan is open to interpretation and there is no changing your view that yours is the only correct one. I'd be curious to see why you think a Batman feat I posted isn't equivalent though. I won't reply but I'd be curious to see it.

You may gladly go see,once you stop throwing names,and you actually keep relevance :)

And no,it isn't. Unless there is actually an interpretation that is actually supported by the facts. And the reason that I chose it is not relevant -__-

Except I don't believe that they are equal. And I had an open discussion with a Batfan some time before,and he argued that by feats,Batman can be considered borderline superhuman or directly underneath the mark (and he supported his case well),which is why I basically think that his argument was well supported by the scans. That was his opinion (that I think stands on rational ground),and it's not that I agree with him,it's that I think that it can be argued. This is yours.

It's hard to know what rational ground is if you've never made it there. That was almost too pathetic. But again,considering that not a single thing has penetrated ,who am I to say? After all,I'm just an aggressive kid,right? Or was it a Cap fan? Well...at least,according to you (not with the facts,but that isn't really new). That was about as relevant as calling me an Alien Warlord from another dimension.

Yeah,except that I am considering what you are saying. That is a ridiculous and false claim that is on faulty ground.

Really? I haven't said WHY I disagree? I haven't said that I think that your interpretation of the scan isn't supported and why? Have you a read a single argument of mine??? And when you made a claim,I say why I agree/disagree,and why it is/isn't supported by the evidence.

No, it isn't. You have only made vague claims in the thread. You know what? I'll collect them all and post them for you after this, just for fun :) Again,it's like I'm bashing my head into a brick wall....

:) <-----(inserts fake smiley to pretend that things are civil)

He used his wealth to travel the world,did he not? Or did he just board a plane without paying?

You can travel without having wealth, yes. He may have taken a small amount of money, but certainly had no access to any kind of fortune while training. And Cap could never do that because he was poor.

Krauser is giving you feats (although he's being a bit insulting),Slim is doing it,and you dismiss them as Cap fans with some bias ,and you do the same to me essentially because I disagree with you?!?!'

Krauser doesn't make arguments he just posts scans occasionally and blindly agrees with anyone procap. Slim and I have been having a civil debate the last few posts and you've been continually claiming I haven't supported myself, that my conclusions are not supported without ever saying why. Don't worry, I'll show you in the next post :)

.....so you've claimed,like,what,5 times that I make vague claims and don't explain why? Except the funny part is that I have,so I doubt that you've done anything other than skim over what I've said. As I said,I'm not repeating myself.

Yes,you gave reasons,and you gave scans,but they DO NOT seem to be supported by the feats,or even by your logic in my opinion. I'm not exactly following any of it,and I don't see any of it stated or supported by scans.

Lol, see. No specifics. I've provided many scans too, which I think is funny. The rest of your post is more of the same.

It's referring to your arguments in general. For example,the Gambit one,The Car hood being crushed,the---just forget it. This has honestly gone nowhere. It's like you barely addressed much of what I said,and everything slim and the others say you dismiss or you make some sort of comparison as to them being equals,when the factors are completely different (The Car Hood being damaged). This has honestly gone nowhere,and it's like I am ramming my head into a brick wall in this back-forth argument. I knew that I wasn't even going to be able to convince you anyway,since nothing they said would be able to....this has honestly been an unproductive use of my time,and as I said,it's better to agree to disagree...because NOTHING I say,or anything anyone says in this thread,will convince you because you are trying WAY too hard to make them seem as equals. Put simply,your "facts" and reasoning is hardly supported by what is actually shown,and is just a ridiculous,wishful interpretation of what is actually shown in the scan(s). You are quite literally being stubborn and pushing the assertion that they are physical equals. But at the same time,you've probably deluded yourself into thinking that everyone shares your view....

@krauser99

Liar. You say Batman has also become superhuman.

No, I didn't. I called something he did practically superhuman, and in the other post I paraphrased Slim's argument with Batman to show it was fallacious.

All your estimations are wrong.

They are not estimations and they are not wrong.

I think it's funny that you still think 616 cap is stronger than ultimate cap though. You should ask slim about that.

@slimj87d: Just ignore him, he clearly isn't listening to reason.