Captain America: the grandmaster of PIS

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#1 Posted by spideyfan69 (170 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not hating on Captain America or anything, but come on it's true. Why does Marvel write Cap like no matter what he faces he'll always win just because he refuses to give up. It's almost like he's the most overpowered street level superhero there is. Very few times do you ever see him lose a fight, IN FACT I DON"T THINK I HAVE. Whether it's an Asgardian, a mutant, or a cosmic eternal. Cap just seems to win every fight he's in. So why does he get such special treatment. Anyone find this weird?

#2 Posted by The Stegman (23158 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair, I think ALL street levelers have a little PIS in them, I mean you see them taking on people with super strength, energy blasts, heat vision, super speed what have you simply with acrobatics. If you put the world's greatest athlete/gymnast up against a guy with a gun, realistically, the gymnast is gonna get shot regardless of how good of shape he's in.

#3 Posted by OmegaRed86 (505 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd take Super Soldier Serum, One of the Best Combat Characters in Marvel, a Vibranium shield, and a Never Die attitude over Prep Time.

But can we get scans of his victories over enemies.

#4 Posted by danhimself (22292 posts) - - Show Bio

remember that time he got shot in the chest and "died"? pure pis

#5 Posted by ChaoticSuperman (325 posts) - - Show Bio

This.

#6 Posted by kasino (1545 posts) - - Show Bio

SSS just makes you at peak human levels

Bats already there and is a master combatant/tactician

but no Cap wins because while who he faces rely on outside sources such as powers and weaponry as you said he is a master combatant and realistically a Green Beret would kill a hoodlum with a gun and even a lion(comparison to powers), while the GB isn't at peak human levels

#7 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaoticSuperman said:

This.

where is this from?lol

#8 Posted by JonSmith (3990 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700: Ultimate universe. Ultimate Hulk is a lot weaker than normal Hulk. Like everything else in the Ultimate Universe.

On topic: Probably because letting him get beaten by pretty much any fictional character and not having an excuse like 'sparring match', or making it really iconic via death, would be like kicking dirt on an apple pie, or burning an American Flag. He is a symbol of patriotism, therefore, as far as storytellers are concerned, letting him lose is unpatriotic.

#9 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

@moywar700: Ultimate universe. Ultimate Hulk is a lot weaker than normal Hulk. Like everything else in the Ultimate Universe.

On topic: Probably because letting him get beaten by pretty much any fictional character and not having an excuse like 'sparring match', or making it really iconic via death, would be like kicking dirt on an apple pie, or burning an American Flag. He is a symbol of patriotism, therefore, as far as storytellers are concerned, letting him lose is unpatriotic.

Im pretty sure

Ult Hawkeye>616 Hawkeye

Ult Green Goblin >616 Goblin

Ult Nuke>616 Nuke

#10 Posted by JonSmith (3990 posts) - - Show Bio

@daak1212: Fair point. Still. ALMOST everything is weaker there.

#11 Posted by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

@spideyfan69 said:

I'm not hating on Captain America or anything, but come on it's true. Why does Marvel write Cap like no matter what he faces he'll always win just because he refuses to give up. It's almost like he's the most overpowered street level superhero there is. Very few times do you ever see him lose a fight, IN FACT I DON"T THINK I HAVE. Whether it's an Asgardian, a mutant, or a cosmic eternal. Cap just seems to win every fight he's in. So why does he get such special treatment. Anyone find this weird?

I totaly agree with you, man.

#12 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America is the embodiment of spirit and hope in the Marvel Universe. He rises to face impossible odds because that is what he is meant to symbolize.

#13 Posted by Rod_The_Blade_Star (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanos beat Cap. He slapped him once and the fight was over.

#14 Posted by Hareil0079 (429 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't he die at the end of CW and BB took his place for a while?

#15 Posted by spideyfan69 (170 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hareil0079: Getting assasinated isn't a fight, and that was just meant to glorify him more. I'm saying that with all the overpowered characters in Marvel youd think one of them would be able to beat down a guy that's not even really superhuman.

#16 Posted by ratman19 (525 posts) - - Show Bio

batman is the grandmaster of PIS

#17 Posted by jinxuandi (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@spideyfan69 said:

Very few times do you ever see him lose a fight, IN FACT I DON"T THINK I HAVE. Whether it's an Asgardian, a mutant, or a cosmic eternal. Cap just seems to win every fight he's in.

How many Cap comics have you read? Since you don't like him, I'm guessing not that many. He's one of the best hand-to-hand fighters in the Marvel universe, but he does lose fights. Also, unlike Thor, Hulk or Iron Man, Cap is smart enough to know when he is outmatched and usually makes a tactical retreat.

#18 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@ratman19 said:

batman is the grandmaster of PIS

This.

@jinxuandi said:

How many Cap comics have you read? Since you don't like him, I'm guessing not that many. He's one of the best hand-to-hand fighters in the Marvel universe, but he does lose fights. Also, unlike Thor, Hulk or Iron Man, Cap is smart enough to know when he is outmatched and usually makes a tactical retreat.

And this.

Cap has lost to many people, Wolverine multiple times, just to name one.

#19 Posted by Enosisik (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

Batrok the leaper has beat Cap silly a few times but Cap finds a way to win . USAgent overpowered Cap and gave him some good fights but of course Cap always wins because he's better trained. Wolverine and Cap go back and forth. Cap loses more often than you'd expect or at least Is pushed to his limit way more often than Batman is. Batman just flat out wins in blowouts in most fights.

#20 Posted by spideyfan69 (170 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone got any images of said beatdowns?

#21 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

The funny thing about Rogers, is the shield (schield factor) that protects him always from all over. In fact it would be simple kill Rogers, but the authors make sure that he always manages to defend himself with his shield. Different speech if he had a true protective armor and not just a shield. A good fighter would be able to disarm Cap (Devil, Black Panther), and without shield...Rogers is dead. One other thing is the fact that many other people are better than him in martial arts, Elektra, Daredevil, Iron Fist. Rogers knows a small number of martial arts.

Rogers never loses because it is simply the one who brings up the name "America".

However, it is absolutely the king of PIS and nonsense.

#22 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alexander505: Cap is adept at all forms of unarmed combat, has been for decades.

Cap has also fought without his shield a number of times. Even if he didn't holding his shield against him is like holding Wolverine's healing factor against him, or Daredevil's senses and Iron Fist's chi against them.

Does Cap have PIS moments absolutely, but no more than Batman, infact I think Batman is the grandmaster of PIS.

#23 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

@ratman19 said:

batman is the grandmaster of PIS

#24 Edited by daredevil21134 (10926 posts) - - Show Bio

Hustle

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Respect

Online
#25 Edited by entropy_aegis (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@Enosisik said:

Batrok the leaper has beat Cap silly a few times but Cap finds a way to win . USAgent overpowered Cap and gave him some good fights but of course Cap always wins because he's better trained. Wolverine and Cap go back and forth. Cap loses more often than you'd expect or at least Is pushed to his limit way more often than Batman is. Batman just flat out wins in blowouts in most fights.

You're joking right? that explains why people gleefully use Knightfall to prove that Batman can get tired but Cap on the otherhand can never fatigue ever.

Cap has his fair share of PIS,he obviously does'nt have as much as Batman but he's that one character whose PIS is actually viewed as being legit.

Batman punches Superman= PIS

Captain America punches Hulk=100 pages of discussion with fanboys claiming it's with in his abilities cause he's TEH a SUPERSOLDIER.

#26 Posted by PowerHerc (81637 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America isn't the Grandmaster of PIS. He's the best.

That's why it can be unbelievable to some when he pulls off all the seemingly impossible things he does.

#27 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Well to be fair. That's what Cap does. He finds ways to win. But not just by himself. He is a leader and his teammates of course help him a lot of times. But he helps them as well as they do refer to him in battles for instruction. The guy is a genius in warfare, combat, strategy, tactics etc. From the Avengers to the Invaders. And in his solo archs Shield, Nick Fury, Sharon, Falcon, Black Widow, Union Jack, Namor etc etc. Certain incidents Cap does does handle it on his own to win. But he definitely has lost before it's just very hard for him to lose. His will and discipline are almost second to none.

#28 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

@Alexander505: Cap is adept at all forms of unarmed combat, has been for decades.

Cap has also fought without his shield a number of times. Even if he didn't holding his shield against him is like holding Wolverine's healing factor against him, or Daredevil's senses and Iron Fist's chi against them.

Does Cap have PIS moments absolutely, but no more than Batman, infact I think Batman is the grandmaster of PIS.

Agreed.

Batman, Daredevil, Elektra they all have there reasons of why the can hold there own depending on the situation. Any give time they can lose just like Cap. IMO its pointless to say who has more PIS. I'm not trying to make a excuse for Steve but he is a super soldier. Steve has always had a mentality or mind set of always finding a way to win. But he was a soldier and that's what they do especially a super soldier.

#29 Posted by CF12793 (2924 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous that he's considered peak but his blows are clearly superhuman, if he can knock around and damage Wolverine, Spiderman, hell even Iron Man then he's clearly above. And it isn't like he uses some sort of great tactical planning when he does this either, he basically just uses boxing each time.

Don't get me wrong, I love the character, but it's completely unrealistic the way he wins his fights.

#30 Edited by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

Well he is a super soldier. I think people that compare him to a regular man that's where it becomes unrealistic. The guy is the next step in human evolution(the peak of human "potential".) And through sheer will many of times he's done the unimaginable. That is the norm for him.

#31 Posted by ThanoStomp (781 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap's been beat plenty of times. All the ones listed above plus Black Panther, Cable (twice that I know of), Taskmaster, John Steele, Paladin... I could go on. Obviously, the OP hasn't read much Cap.

One could make just as strong an argument that Cap has lost too many times to people that he shouldn't have lost to.

#32 Posted by xmentas (175 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaoticSuperman said:

This.

That is just.....come on

#33 Edited by ThanoStomp (781 posts) - - Show Bio

@xmentas said:

@ChaoticSuperman said:

This.

That is just.....come on

That's from the Ultimate Universe where Cap is a beast and and Hulk is not a strong. Totally different levels on both characters.

But I like what Cap is doing there.... He's strategically targeting spots he knows he can hurt Hulk. A shot square to the nose(that shit stings like hell) and then one to the family jewels. Then he takes him down. If you put it all in context of the rest of the story, Cap knows he doesn't have a chance, he's just trying to buy time and distract Hulk so his team can inject him with serum to revert him back to Banner.

#34 Posted by CBninja (160 posts) - - Show Bio

A good example of Cap getting owned would be during spider island, where the spider queen basically destroyed him in one on one combat. After she beat the crap outa him she turned him into a giant spider. So Cap doesn't always win.

#35 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

Just a clarification on Cap's peak human abilities... Brubaker said it best, IMO, Captain America isn't just a peak human...when humanity evolves to the next step of evolution they will be stronger and faster, etc, etc than what we currently are now, and Cap is the peak of that. It's an evolutionary thing...

This is a post by Ed Brubaker:

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...pl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

#36 Posted by SlimJ87D (9338 posts) - - Show Bio

@xmentas said:

@ChaoticSuperman said:

This.

That is just.....come on

Come one, that's ultimate version of both characters. Ultimate Cap is stronger than 616 cap, and Ultimate Hulk hasn't been shown to be as strong as 616 Hulk.

How could you guys forget to rule this out when discussing this scan? Also, Cap punched him in the nose and the balls after Cap dropped a tank on him from a high building. It's not like Hulk wasn't okay after that either...

#37 Posted by krauser99 (826 posts) - - Show Bio

@ChaoticSuperman said:

This.

Impressive by first glance unless you look at the whole entirety of the book. Ult Iroman had Ult Hulk hurt bad and throwing up and then sent him crashing down. Then the wasp distracted him so they could drop a tank on him. Then finally Ult Cap fought him.

Main Stream Cap also has impressive showings like this one but with circumstances as well.

But it's those circumstances that make Cap such a force to be reckoned with as they pick apart there opposition.

#38 Posted by Jack Donaghy (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Cap is worse than Batman when it comes to PIS it's just that Batman is more popular so people don't let him get away with it.

#39 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@krauser99 said:

@ChaoticSuperman said:

This.

Impressive by first glance unless you look at the whole entirety of the book. Ult Iroman had Ult Hulk hurt bad and throwing up and then sent him crashing down. Then the wasp distracted him so they could drop a tank on him. Then finally Ult Cap fought him.

Main Stream Cap also has impressive showings like this one but with circumstances as well.

But it's those circumstances that make Cap such a force to be reckoned with as they pick apart there opposition.

Apologies, I know I'm like the millionth guy to quote this scan, but I feel some points need to be addressed just to serve the context:

1. Ultimate Hulk is weaker than 616 Hulk

2. Captain America surprised Hulk here by having a tank dropped on him.

3. After this 'beatdown', Cap attempted to inject an antidote into the Hulk before Hulk woke up and crushed Cap's hand. Then Hulk proceeded to spend the entire issue kicking the crap out of him, Iron Man, and Thor, before Wasp was able to sneak inside the Hulk's brain (the one part that's human-ish), and give him an aneurysm.

So, not PIS, merely entertaining writing. Everyone got that? Alright, continue.

#40 Posted by matchesmalone21 (8420 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark: explain

#41 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Hulk was still inexperienced (Spider-Man refers to this by stating it's the first or second time he went up against the Hulk, in a panel you didn't post).

2. Captain America has all of the fighting experience from WWII, and early Avengers comics do show him holding his own against the Hulk.

3. Cap uses his indestructible shield as a weapon - the same weapon that has taken down Namor in a single blow.

4. In a panel you didn't post, it took an additional punch from the super-powered Spider-Man to take the Hulk down.

5. Then again, I think Bendis wrote that, so take from that what you will. I'm not saying this isn't PIS; just trying to give you a rational explanation.

#42 Posted by matchesmalone21 (8420 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veshark:

I didn't find the last panel ,so because of that I didn't posted before. I know all this stuff about Cap, I'm not arguing about his fighting skills, which to me is not the case and I honestly do not care about it, even a beginner Hulk is beyond Namor's durability and even with the indestructible shield Cap wouldn't be able to knockout him,because he doesn't have enough strength to do it. Because this is a Hulk inexperienced I believe this story pass during his early years,when he fought with more stronger characters as The Thing and Wendigo,and he won despite the durability and strength of these characters,Hulk fought against Ben Grimm for hours,imagine the amount of punishment he took during this fight and yet he still stand.

Combining the strength of both is still insufficient to defeat it, it's inadmissible and unbelievable

Hulk felt that?? really?

Next

#43 Posted by The Stegman (23158 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Stegman said:
To be fair, I think ALL street levelers have a little PIS in them, I mean you see them taking on people with super strength, energy blasts, heat vision, super speed what have you simply with acrobatics. If you put the world's greatest athlete/gymnast up against a guy with a gun, realistically, the gymnast is gonna get shot regardless of how good of shape he's in.
I stick by this. 
#44 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

As I said earlier, take from it what you will. You asked me for an explanation, so I gave it to the best of my knowledge. For the record, I actually agree with you - that Cap and Spidey defeating Hulk this easily is ridiculous. But it happened; so I was just trying to give you an in-canon rationalization.

As for the Onslaught one, I can't comment on that simply because I've never read Onslaught, nor know anything about the character's capabilities.

#45 Posted by Justin_Credible (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@ratman19 said:

batman is the grandmaster of PIS

#46 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

that is called the jobber aura, not PIS

#47 Posted by fury714 (589 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

Hustle

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#48 Edited by Alexander505 (2144 posts) - - Show Bio

@justin_credible said:

@ratman19 said:

batman is the grandmaster of PIS

Batman has never punched a guy like Hulk in his comics or continuity. Ergo, Steve is worse than Batman in terms of PIS...but isn't a news ;)

#49 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

that is called jobber aura, not pis

please adress terms carefully

#50 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (5939 posts) - - Show Bio

@ratman19 said:

batman is the grandmaster of PIS

Not to get of topic but how?

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