http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/314029065185003479

 I don't think he's like you are saying.

I already proved you wrong and others have also.. That just adds to it. They don't view it as you do. You are stating your opinion. That's fine, but it doesn't mean it's correct! Like I said, in the scene the boy calls it a Valcan grip or something. "hardness" of skin will not stop a interal martial art where such things don't matter...especially in a fictional made up work. There nothing "PIS" about it. Hard skin never stops internal martial arts in faction. Smh.

"Writers aren't allowed to only apply realism when it's convenient"

Every writer does that all the time and so do readers. The fact is that stranger things have happened in comics than Luke Cage being taken down by presure points.

I already proved you wrong and others have also.. That just adds to it. They don't view it as you do. You are stating your opinion. That's fine, but it doesn't mean it's correct! Like I said, in the scene the boy calls it a Valcan grip or something. "hardness" of skin will not stop a interal martial art where such things don't matter...especially in a fictional made up work. There nothing "PIS" about it. Hard skin never stops internal martial arts in faction. Smh.

The fact is that stranger things have happened in comics than Luke Cage being taken down by presure points.

Wow, settle down, :) and yes it does when you are claiming the writer doesn't know what he is talking about... it does matter. It's not just a observation, a real person wrote that, and HE was aware when writing it. A shout out to fans looking for the Doomwar style that never came to be. My point is he was wrote that for a reason! Your excuse is pretty flimsy here, because you have not shown anything at all to refute anything. It doesn't mean that it's PIS, because you say so... that's you saying it..as fact. Sorry..it's not. It's a misinformed opinion. Again, Cage has been put down with Strikes before! So T'challa doing it, should not be a problem. And I guess if you want to hold on to 1970 descriptions you can...Marvel is moving on...he has bullet proof, nearly unbreakable skin...but it's not stiff in the manner you suggest. It's hard as steel/titanium or whatever you want to say..but in terms of toughness...and that scene and others with him getting strike proves it. Show me something with someone...a character of equal skill, doing the same exact skill/move and you will have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

Wow, settle down, :) 

and yes it does when you are claiming the writer doesn't know what he is talking about... it does matter. It's not just a observation, a real person wrote that, and HE was aware when writing it. A shout out to fans looking for the Doomwar style that never came to be. My point is he was wrote that for a reason!

Your excuse is pretty flimsy here, because you have not shown anything at all to refute anything. 

It doesn't mean that it's PIS, because you say so... that's you saying it..as fact. Sorry..it's not. It's a misinformed opinion. Again, Cage has been put down with Strikes before! So T'challa doing it, should not be a problem. 

 And I guess if you want to hold on to 1970 descriptions you can...Marvel is moving on...

he has bullet proof, nearly unbreakable skin...but it's not stiff in the manner you suggest.

It's hard as steel/titanium or whatever you want to say..but in terms of toughness...and that scene and others with him getting strike proves it. Show me something with someone...a character of equal skill, doing the same exact skill/move and you will have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

This is why the hole concept of PIS is just stupid to me.

You know what else shouldn't happen? Superman flying (I know they explained it but how long did it take?), or Lois Lan surviving sex with him.

If things more unrealistic than BP beat Cage are PIS than 75 percent of all comics is PIS.

Hell, the existence of certain characers is PIS, Galactus, Silver Surfer, Superman being killed, coming back to life, all the magic in comics, the Hulk, how a mutation could give you super powers and most wrtiers could not really understand how a radioactive spider could give someone Super powers.

We are talking about a man with steel skin.

The fact is it may be far fetched but it is realistic for someone to punch and dent steele if hit hard enough. Panther hurt his hand after he Punched Cage, it probably would've been more realistic had he broken his hand but he did hurt it none the less.

When did he fight Red Skull O.o?

In avengers Red Zone

@Vance Astro: I never said his skin was stiff. [pause} something that is hard doesn't have to be stiff. If Cage's skin wasn't flexible he wouldn't be able to move. I said this already.

hahahahahahahaha

This is why the hole concept of PIS is just stupid to me.

You know what else shouldn't happen? Superman flying (I know they explained it but how long did it take?), or Lois Lan surviving sex with him.

If things more unrealistic than BP beat Cage are PIS than 75 percent of all comics is PIS.

Hell, the existence of certain characers is PIS, Galactus, Silver Surfer, Superman being killed, coming back to life, all the magic in comics, the Hulk, how a mutation could give you super powers and most wrtiers could not really understand how a radioactive spider could give someone Super powers.

The fact is it may be far fetched but it is realistic for someone to punch and dent steele if hit hard enough. Panther hurt his hand after he Punched Cage, it probably would've been more realistic had he broken his hand but he did hurt it none the less.

@Vance Astro: I never said his skin was stiff. [pause} something that is hard doesn't have to be stiff. If Cage's skin wasn't flexible he wouldn't be able to move. I said this already.

hahahahahahahaha

So Vance that now counts? If it does, I have the same saying T'challa is near SH and Superhuman? Lmao. See how that works? Like I said, point out a character of similar skill as T'challa... doing the same to move on Cage. Show when he blocks it or that he is immune. Otherwise you point is just a opinion. Cage HAS been taken down this way. You have not proved it was PIS at all. Fact is he did a move that was not physical. He didn't punch him, jab him. The move was purely a internal (soft) martial arts move, that does not require "hard" force...

Nerve attacks in almost every fictional medium have basically just involved a light touch of whatever targeted area. This argument seems silly and just for the sake of arguing.

So Vance that now counts? If it does, I have the same saying T'challa is near SH and Superhuman? Lmao. See how that works? Like I said, point out a character of similar skill as T'challa... doing the same to move on Cage. Show when he blocks it or that he is immune. Otherwise you point is just a opinion. Cage HAS been taken down this way. You have not proved it was PIS at all. Fact is he did a move that was not physical. He didn't punch him, jab him. The move was purely a internal (soft) martial arts move, that does not require "hard" force...

Nerve attacks in almost every fictional medium have basically just involved a light touch of whatever targeted area.  

This argument seems silly and just for the sake of arguing.

I can't use the quote feature from work but I'm sure each of those instances you refer to gave a detailed summary of exactly how much force was applied and a lengthy explanation of the history of the move as well. Sounds riveting. Most comics I've read just show Batman/Daredevil/Panther/Etc. touching someone and they fall over. Sometimes there are even little lightning bolts.

I can't use the quote feature from work but I'm sure each of those instances you refer to gave a detailed summary of exactly how much force was applied and a lengthy explanation of the history of the move as well. Sounds riveting. Most comics I've read just show Batman/Daredevil/Panther/Etc. touching someone and they fall over. Sometimes there are even little lightning bolts.

Okay... and when Panther did it he didn't need to aply the extra force, it's as simple as that. They are two different characters who practice different martial arts.

Okay... and when Panther did it he didn't need to aply the extra force, it's as simple as that. They are two different characters who practice different martial arts.

Yo B, there is no use. We both know what Liss was doing. The move does not require "Hard" force, or more force, or super strength. It's simply a skill that's a soft martial art, a internal martial Art..where a tap is all that is required! It's seen all over wuxi a, Kill Bill, etc. Its simple as that. T'challa killing a fly is PIS too. Lol

Yo B, there is no use. We both know what Liss was doing. The move does not require "Hard" force, or more force, or super strength. It's simply a skill that's a soft martial art, a internal martial Art..where a tap is all that is required! It's seen all over wuxi a, Kill Bill, etc. Its simple as that. 

Vance. You still don't get it do you? Smh. Did I say it was the same? That's you saying that. You. What T'challa can do is superior to that! It DOES bypass "steel like skin"... I mean was just giving you a example of from popular fiction, I never said it the same...I guess you don't watch many kung Fu flicks..because stuff like this is the MAIN WEAPON against masters using iron body, steal body, Invincible body styles...and T'challa move is like that, just better then the Bride! He's better. Again, you see to limit T'challa on the basis of what others can do, without accepting that he might be able to do something like this that's better. And that's the case here.

Vance. You still don't get it do you? Smh. Did I say it was the same? That's you saying that. You. What T'challa can do is superior to that! It DOES bypass "steel like skin"... I mean was just giving you a example of from popular fiction, I never said it the same...I guess you don't watch many kung Fu flicks..because stuff like this is the MAIN WEAPON against masters using iron body, steal body, Invincible body styles...and T'challa move is like that, just better then the Bride! He's better. Again, you see to limit T'challa on the basis of what others can do, without accepting that he might be able to do something like this that's better. And that's the case here.

But you continue to respond don't you? I don't understand you either, or the shoddy logic you continue to use. Others HAVE pointed out the same things, yet you still ignore it! And I haven't moved away from anything..all the others are wuxia inspired "dim mak" moves also, they work in different ways and they are not limited by they rules you are trying to place on them...and yeah they do have characters with iron or steel skin that can not be harmed by normal attacks. These common styles/skills are used to beat those characters, period. It doesn't matter if Cage is this or that, you will not respect that he has a move that can do This. It's that simple, you simply will not suspend your disbelief..he's "street" and he's not allowed to have a move that can do something like taking down a character that's clearly "out of his league and power range"..right? No matter if HIS skill and version does bypass steel skin! It does. There is nothing to refute why it can't! The guy has a style with magic mixed in! Another example, True Legend. That villain could not be harmed by regular attacks... And what happened between Cage and T'challa was not a "PIS situation"...smh. Cage wasn't even trying to fight! T'challa wasn't either. It looks like you have a something against him...not me. Yay for Marvel NOW and upgrade! No more of this PIS nonsense.

But you continue to respond don't you? I don't understand you either, or the shoddy logic you continue to use. Others HAVE pointed out the same things, yet you still ignore it! And I haven't moved away from anything..all the others are wuxia inspired "dim mak" moves also, they work in different ways and they are not limited by they rules you are trying to place on them...and yeah they do have characters with iron or steel skin that can not be harmed by normal attacks. These common styles/skills are used to beat those characters, period. It doesn't matter if Cage is this or that, you will not respect that he has a move that can do This. It's that simple, you simply will not suspend your disbelief..he's "street" and he's not allowed to have a move that can do something like taking down a character that's clearly "out of his league and power range"..right? No matter if HIS skill and version does bypass steel skin! It does. There is nothing to refute why it can't! The guy has a style with magic mixed in! Another example, True Legend. That villain could not be harmed by regular attacks... And what happened between Cage and T'challa was not a "PIS situation"...smh. Cage wasn't even trying to fight! T'challa wasn't either. It looks like you have a something against him...not me. Yay for Marvel NOW and upgrade! No more of this PIS nonsense.

First, there is no set way of how the Valcan Pinch works, just different theories. The explanation was already given! You are ignoring it... It's still just a form of dim mak. Period! THE FANS that interacted with Mr. Liss asked him about the mystical style from Doomwar! He said he would try to touch on some things. In the scene, T'challa acknowledges Cage durability, skin and so on..then used a skill that could bypass it. It's that simple. There is nothing "PIS", there is no reason to prove anything to a reasonable reader. I don't care about Spiderman. Why would he be able to do T'challa's MOVE? It's his..and there is no need to quantify it by what another character does or can do...either. Again, this has nothing to do with real martial arts! That's what people have been saying...it's a faux skill, that varies in use.

First, there is no set way of how the Valcan Pinch works, just different theories. 

The explanation was already given! You are ignoring it... It's still just a form of dim mak. Period!  

 THE FANS that interacted with Mr. Liss asked him about the mystical style from Doomwar! He said he would try to touch on some things. In the scene, T'challa acknowledges Cage durability, skin and so on..then used a skill that could bypass it. 

 There is nothing "PIS", there is no reason to prove anything to a reasonable reader.

I don't care about Spiderman. Why would he be able to do T'challa's MOVE? It's his..and there is no need to quantify it by what another character does or can do...either. Again, this has nothing to do with real martial arts! That's what people have been saying...it's a faux skill, that varies in use.

But it wasn't a factor. He doesn't have to explain how he does it. He did it and it worked. Period. This is a fictional world. Writers and editors...the professionals who are good enough to write at this level don't really care about the PIS nonsense. He used something that worked, after talking about Cage powers. You either respect T'challa..a genius would be able to use "push and transfer-qi" or not. So will just have to agree to disagree. But if you are wonder why Marvel is upgrading him..look at this thread.

Another thing, since when has Cage's nerve endings been invulnerable? He still feels stuff. So yeah, there was NOTHING PIS about the scene. His nerve points/endings are not invulnerable. His skin is unbreakable! And yes there are nerve strikes or pinches in real life...but not ones like he performed, which is strictly fictional. Maybe that's part of the issue...you are framing this by real life standards...I'm trying to get you to see that the fictional strikes pinches work differently, and are not limited by real life standards. like B.Mck said, it usually takes a tap in fiction. Oh well. It doesn't matter now. Next time he does it, no one will be able to say that.

But it wasn't a factor. He doesn't have to explain how he does it. He did it and it worked. Period. 

 Writers and editors...the professionals who are good enough to write at this level don't really care about the PIS nonsense. 

 You either respect T'challa..a genius would be able to use "push and transfer-qi" or not. So will just have to agree to disagree. 

But if you are wonder why Marvel is upgrading him..look at this thread.

Yes he's IS getting a upgrade and it does have to do with some of the stuff stated this thread. Sorry. The PIS arguments were a big factor. A huge one that Marvel saw clearly with Mr. Liss and Rosemann (editor) run, they actually interacted with this stuff first hand. Again, Cage has never been said to be immune to not feeling. He does feel pain. We know this and his hard skin (or unbreakable skin as Marvel now calls it) does not stop that. The vital points ARE the weakest points on a Human's body...and Dim Mak strikes/pinch are just a exaggerated form/skill where rules do not work. Sure his intelligence matters...he knows weakness of friends and foes. He knows the human anatomy! He would not acknowledge Cage's powers, then do something like that if he didn't Know it was going to work. he used a move that would work..and There is no reason why it would not work. Cage's Nervous system, nerve endings and points are not invulnerable..other wise he would not feel pain, and he does...besides these spots being weakest spots on the body, physically and qi wise as well. Sure in a fight, one hit Cage would have killed T'challa... BUT Cage wasn't even trying to fight. The Namor right out if the water is PIS, but like I said..they don't view it like message board-forum posters do sometimes.

Yes he's IS getting a upgrade and it does have to do with some of the stuff stated this thread. Sorry. The PIS arguments were a big factor. A huge one that Marvel saw clearly with Mr. Liss and Rosemann (editor) run, they actually interacted with this stuff first hand. 

Again, Cage has never been said to be immune to not feeling. He does feel pain. 

The vital points ARE the weakest points on a Human's body...and Dim Mak strikes/pinch are just a exaggerated form/skill where rules do not work. 

he knows weakness of friends and foes. He knows the human anatomy! He would not acknowledge Cage's powers, then do something like that if he didn't Know it was going to work. 

Cage's Nervous system, nerve endings and points are not invulnerable..

 Sure in a fight, one hit Cage would have killed T'challa... BUT Cage wasn't even trying to fight.  

I disgree. It's the unreasonable readers, saying eveything is "PIS" then claiming you need better writers, with pretty much anything he does.. which is stupid! The point of the OP's thread...he sees it, i see it, others have seen it and Marvel sees it... You mean EVERY freaking writer is not good enough? And sure it goes away. Now the "PIS" ers will have a lot harder time whining about! Next, you clearly don't understand "Dim Mak" a qi move...it's laughable that you are claiming that Liss doesn't understand it, when he does and you don't. You keep talking about the hardness of skin AND THAT DOES NOT MATTER WITH THIS DIM MAK SKILL. T'challa is not a regular human either. He's not. Again, what you just said does not make sense Vance. You are the one that does not get that it does not work that way, not Liss. His skin would not protect against a attack like that. It wasn't a physical attack using force! SO WHY would his skin matter? What's so hard to understand...and like I said Cage nerve endings and points are NOT invulnerable. He feels...you say you never suggested it...yet you are arguing why it not would work. The hardness of his skin simply would not stop a attack like this. You say that No Form or combat will? Wow, really, no form or skill at all? In a fiction universe?... see that's what i meant about unreasonable. how can you make such a statement? Again, He he can feel things, when he gets hit he comments on it hurting at times...so then he would also be affected by dim Mak move, which does not require any HARD FORCE... touch and transfer energy. Look at the scan and you see it. Why is this so hard to accept? I mean Liss could have used the the full blown mystical style from Doomwar...he just choose to make it wuxia like, and that is perfectly valid. Thats how it works...hardness of skin would not matter with something fictional like the move he did.

@Skaddix said:

@JSH92 said:

Black Panther vs Silver Surfer. BP got him in a hold that is "impossible to escape from." It was basically a cross-face chicken wing, what a load of PIBS.

Really chicken jokes?

Really, jump to racism accusation?

Already been addressed

@Static Shock: I was thinking about the Namor Panther thing again, and I don't see how Namor having superhuman strength should prevent Panther from knocking him back. Again, especially if Namor was jumping.

Besides, cap has beaten Namor before, and if Cap has BEATEN him, PAnthe could at least knock him down.

@Mykhael: Namor wasn't jumping. He was flying. Within the same issue, he was soaking wet during a meeting with Magneto, Doom, and T'Challa. The fight took place that same night within the same issue. After having been drenched in water, the way that battle went down shouldn't have happened that way.

Captain America defeated a Namor clone, which wasn't even as powerful as the original. He had two fights against the original Namor. In the first, he 'defeated' him by destroying a device on his neck that was controlling him, and in the other, he was completely dominated by Namor. I don't recall Captain America legitimately defeating Namor.

@Static Shock: So I went back to look at the issue and here are things I want to point out.

There was a significant time difference between the meeting with Doom, Magneto and Namor. Enough time in fact for Ross to make it from that meeting to Lemuria.

When we see Namor next he is flying downward towards the store T'Chall is in and then goes underground and comes up and he's dry. It isnt clear exactly how much time has passed BUT we do know that a good deal of time must have passed.

Namor could've been jumping or flying it isn't clear, I think he's leaping but it could very well be a flight.

But all of that is neither here nor there. What matters is whether or not it's reasonable for T'Challa to be able to knock Namor out the air into a wall.

I think it is but lets look at the evidence, T'Challa with the heart shaped herb has taken down a rhino and he's probably on par with a geneticly enhanced killmonger who's taken down an elephant. If T'Challa can take down a 7000Ib Rhino and KillMonger can take down a 20,000 pound elephant I doubt it would be difficult for T'Challa with a heart shaped herb and a vibrainum suit to catch a 260 pound (flying or jumpin) Namor by suprise and punch him into the wall.

Static has a point. But this is why they made this move. He should be able to fight different monarchs just like that! Now he can...Super Human physical prowess + super genius intellect + master fighter + the total knowledge of his ancestors (see Dune Leto II) + super senses...and posdible immortality (Defenders) ....he's a power house. And that's not everything...but it brings him in line with Namor, Doom and Black Bolt. Next time he fights him, this will not matter much. Parse Namors words from the AvX 8.

I disgree. It's the unreasonable readers, saying eveything is "PIS" then claiming you need better writers, with pretty much anything he does.. which is stupid! The point of the OP's thread...he sees it, i see it, others have seen it and Marvel sees it... You mean EVERY freaking writer is not good enough? And sure it goes away. Now the "PIS" ers will have a lot harder time whining about!

I disgree. It's the unreasonable readers, saying eveything is "PIS" then claiming you need better writers, with pretty much anything he does.. which is stupid! The point of the OP's thread...he sees it, i see it, others have seen it and Marvel sees it... You mean EVERY freaking writer is not good enough? And sure it goes away. Now the "PIS" ers will have a lot harder time whining about! Next, you clearly don't understand "Dim Mak" a qi move...it's laughable that you are claiming that Liss doesn't understand it, when he does and you don't. You keep talking about the hardness of skin AND THAT DOES NOT MATTER WITH THIS DIM MAK SKILL. T'challa is not a regular human either. He's not. Again, what you just said does not make sense Vance. You are the one that does not get that it does not work that way, not Liss. His skin would not protect against a attack like that. It wasn't a physical attack using force! SO WHY would his skin matter? What's so hard to understand...and like I said Cage nerve endings and points are NOT invulnerable. 

Again, He he can feel things, when he gets hit he comments on it hurting at times...

@Mykhael said:

Namor could've been jumping or flying it isn't clear, I think he's leaping but it could very well be a flight.

Based on how Namor is positioned, it's flight. He is positioned so that his body is parallel to the ground, with his arms out in front of him, pointing in the direction he's flying. That's a common position for flight in comics.

@Mykhael said:

I think it is but lets look at the evidence, T'Challa with the heart shaped herb has taken down a rhino and he's probably on par with a geneticly enhanced killmonger who's taken down an elephant. If T'Challa can take down a 7000Ib Rhino and KillMonger can take down a 20,000 pound elephant I doubt it would be difficult for T'Challa with a heart shaped herb and a vibrainum suit to catch a 260 pound (flying or jumpin) Namor by suprise and punch him into the wall.

That's a pretty bad comparison, and I'm not sure what Killmonger has to do with this, either.

Weight isn't a significant issue by itself, to be honest. At the same time, that rhino and that elephant don't have the physical capabilities that Namor possesses. Think about Namor, who weighs 260 pounds (118 kg), possesses superhuman durability and strength (Class 100 at the most; there may have been a time difference from when he was wet to the beginning of the fight, but not enough to significantly diminish his strength), and is flying (his top speed is supposed to be 40 miles an hour, based on the Handbook, but comic book showings may suggest otherwise). Remember, Namor wasn't wet when he fought Sentry, and he was able to hold his own for a little while.

Force equals mass times acceleration (with the added benefit of superhuman durability and strength). 4,720 newtons. T'Challa would have broken his arm, at least.

@Vance, I'm right. Yes they do care. Not always, but when it's called out and hinders story telling. Yes. The attacks...attacked that Mcduffie and Liss got was embarrassing. And you can have your opinion. It's clear Marvel, the doesn't agree. You lose.

But it's not a bad comparison my friend. Even if Namor was charging in flight (but I remain unconvinced) at 40 miles an hour his physical strength is rendered moot, it might as well not exist he is still bound by the laws of physics. He still weighs 260 pounds Killmonger comes in because he and T'Challa are relatively even when it comes to physical strength and Killmonger (without a vibrainium suit) took down a charging (and grounded) elephant that has a max speed of 24-25 miles hour and weighs over 20,000 pounds. T'Challa taking down a charging Rhino which can have a speed up to 30-45 miles an hour, equal to Namor. So if T'Challa can take down a Rhino and Elephant, he can knoc down Namor.

So using your calculations 4,720N=1,062 Ibf, So Namor was (given that he was moving at his top speed which he couldn't have been) moving with 1062 ib of force.

The vibrainium suit didn't just shut off, it COULD'VE worked to zapp momentum from Namors blind dive. If it didn't it could've definitly protected him and The vibrainium doesnt need to repeal, the force of T'Challa's punch did that all on it's own.

Here are some things we don't know, so we can't say this is impossible or PIS

1. But we don't truely know, exactly how fast Namor was moving, flight or leap (because people have been known leap with hands extended before), and it couldn't have been too fast because of the short distance.

2. We also don't know the power and impact of T'Challa's punch force. A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how they held their wrists. A study of 70 boxers found elite-level fighters could punch with an average of 776 pounds of force. Another study of 23 boxers showed elite fighters were able to punch more than twice as hard as amatures, the hardest hitter generating almost 1,300 pounds of force.

But here is what we do know

1. BP would be stronger than any boxer on that list punching with at least double the force, enough to stop Namor and maybe enough to send flying into the wall.

2. BP has taken down animals and people with Namor's weight and speed.

3. T'Challa's vibrainium suit zaps moementum

So I ask you if a 300 pound Job schmo was launched in the air at BP at 30-40 miles and hour would BP be able to punch him down? How would his phyiscal strength matter if he was airborne?

If you could tell me how Namor's Superhuman strength and durability have any bearing on a his possible flight I'll concede the argument to you my friend.

But I will say that T'Challa breaking his arm is reasonable depending on how durable Namor's skin is (but the vibrainium suit is protection), but he still could've mustered enough force to knock Namor down.

All I'm saying is this is possible, even if you consider it unlikely, as such shouldn't qualify as "PIS"

You know what is PIS...vibrainium.

@Vance, I'm right. Yes they do care. Not always, but when it's called out and hinders story telling. Yes. The attacks...attacked that Mcduffie and Liss got was embarrassing. And you can have your opinion. It's clear Marvel, the doesn't agree. You lose.

You know what is PIS...vibrainium.

That was kind of joke, because the entire idea PIS is stupid and over used. But that's just me, who believes that the much of the fanbase and fanboys in general believe they know everything better than the creators (sometimes they do) and don't know how to enjoy comics now a days.

While things in comics do often need to be logicly explained in order to work best, there are too many outside varibles that we can't possibly know that prevents anyone from adaquately judging what is possible in an art form full of fantasy. PIS is just one more way fans and fanboys can say "hey, look at me, I'm the professional critic and I don't like what you did because it can't happen that way" (I am also guilty of this )and in most cases the artist probably thinks "well Tough because it just did dip sh*t".

I'm not bashing anyone here, you guys are fun and make sound arguements, lord knows I don't get tired of seeing Vance and Umbraa go back and forth, but PIS, valid or not continues to be fan created bitchery, to me anyway. :)

That was kind of joke, because the entire idea PIS is stupid and over used. But that's just me, who believes that the much of the fanbase and fanboys in general believe they know everything better than the creators (sometimes they do) and don't know how to enjoy comics now a days.

While things in comics do often need to be logicly explained in order to work best, there are too many outside varibles that we can't possibly know that prevents anyone from adaquately judging what is possible in an art form full of fantasy. PIS is just one more way fans and fanboys can say "hey, look at me, I'm the professional critic and I don't like what you did because it can't happen that way" (I am also guilty of this )and in most cases the artist probably thinks "well Tough because it just did dip sh*t".

I'm not bashing anyone here, you guys are fun and make sound arguements, lord knows I don't get tired of seeing Vance and Umbraa go back and forth, but PIS, valid or not continues to be fan created bitchery, to me anyway. :)

@Vance, here is the thing. I clearly said it was *part* of it, because it was. I have talked to Liss, Maberry and others about this. I have wrote Marvel for a long time about this, breaking it down and citing evidence. Just because you don't think so doesn't make it so. Marvel does listen to fans if they have and can make a sound argument. Example, the Marriage between Storm and T'challa. Brevoort has even said as much recently. Spider-Girl fans also proved it. So stop being dismissive about something you are clearly not aware or privy to make such statements. Again, it's pretty embarrassing that every review thread/review devolves into mindless accusations of "PIS", "He's Street level", he can't do that rather then the story.. etc...from Priest and Mcduffie who both got hate mail, to Hudlin being trashed because he had BP, one shot Karnak, even though Kirby also did it, Jason Aarons SI being blamed on Hudlin and dismissed, to Liss run were they finally saw it was a part of a bif issue. Hickman's interview saying we missed the boat was talking partly about that...Along with the other monarchs (Doom,Black Bolt, Namor, Thor) all being power houses...except the black monarch T'challa and Nation heroes like Captain Britain going from peak human to 90 to class...and T'challa getting priest tech being a issue with fans that causes hate mail...they decided to finally do it. Remember Maberry was going to as well. I asked him personally to do it, he agreed and saw the same things and noted it also in interviews. Priest noted it as well. I don't think Liss is garbage at all. So opinions differ..and it wasn't based just on Liss BUT EVERY FRAKING PANTHER WRITER. Again, this was just one aspect of it, not the total sum. They are aware of certain attitudes. This is pushing against the total sum of those views.