First of all, let me say that I hate the term PIS, I've said in the other Panther thread that it just seems like an excuse that comic fans use to dismiss something they don't like.

That said, are there any BP moments you see as PIS or any that are widely considered PIS that you think are legit?

In doing research I see that Panther can hold his own(because the former vibrainium suit, enhanced strength and prep time) with many in the Marvel Universe but there are people that think of any high profile win or draw as "PIS".

What do you think, were anyone these PIS?

Panther vs Sabertooth

Panther vs. Iron Man

Panther vs. Namor

Panther vs. Doom

Panther vs Luke Cage

Panther vs. FF

Panther vs. Wolverine

Panther vs Cap

Panther vs Red Skull

Any other battles you can think of?

Black Panther vs Silver Surfer. BP got him in a hold that is "impossible to escape from." It was basically a cross-face chicken wing, what a load of PIBS.

I think he could beat Red Skull and Namor under certain conditions.

All super heroes be they great or small should triumph over the evil dastardly villains otherwise the bad guys win. PIS has to be implemented or Galactus would consume everybody hands down with little fuss. The thing with Black Panther is the writer is required to think of ways for him to be victorious and up the cool factor by any means necessary. If you write comics... You write PIS!

@Mykhael said:

First of all, let me say that I hate the term PIS, I've said in the other Panther thread that it just seems like an excuse that comic fans use to dismiss something they don't like.

That said, are there any BP moments you see as PIS or any that are widely considered PIS that you think are legit?

In doing research I see that Panther can hold his own(because the former vibrainium suit, enhanced strength and prep time) with many in the Marvel Universe but there are people that think of any high profile win or draw as "PIS".

What do you think, were anyone these PIS?

Panther vs Sabertooth

Panther vs. Iron Man

Panther vs. Namor

Panther vs. Doom

Panther vs Luke Cage

Panther vs. FF

Panther vs. Wolverine

Panther vs Cap

Panther vs Red Skull

Any other battles you can think of?

I feel he should have been able to do much better against Sabretooth

@flexhectic said:

All super heroes be they great or small should triumph over the evil dastardly villains otherwise the bad guys win.

PIS has to be implemented or Galactus would consume everybody hands down with little fuss.

The thing with Black Panther is the writer is required to think of ways for him to be victorious and up the cool factor by any means necessary.

If you write comics... You write PIS!

QFT

@Duke_Nasty said:

I think he could beat Red Skull and Namor under certain conditions.

If Shuri was capable of getting that close, I have no doubt that T'Challa could be a beast against Namor

What do you think, were anyone these PIS?

Panther vs Sabertooth

Panther vs. Iron Man

Panther vs. Namor

Panther vs. Doom

Panther vs Luke Cage

Panther vs. FF

Panther vs. Wolverine

Panther vs Cap

Panther vs Red Skull

Any other battles you can think of?

@JSH92 said:

Black Panther vs Silver Surfer. BP got him in a hold that is "impossible to escape from." It was basically a cross-face chicken wing, what a load of PIBS.

Really chicken jokes?

@Skaddix said:

@JSH92 said:

Black Panther vs Silver Surfer. BP got him in a hold that is "impossible to escape from." It was basically a cross-face chicken wing, what a load of PIBS.

Really chicken jokes?

Chicken jokes? Sorry, I don't follow.

@Skaddix said:

@JSH92 said:

Black Panther vs Silver Surfer. BP got him in a hold that is "impossible to escape from." It was basically a cross-face chicken wing, what a load of PIBS.

Really chicken jokes?

Thats the name of the hold, the "cross face chicken wing", no jokes.

Vance Astro,

Luke Cage has been beaten like that before

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/MykullKhaN/nam2.jpg

Luke Cage has been beaten like that before

@Vance Astro: Here: http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/79822/2286234-presure_points_on_cage.jpg

@Mykhael said:

What do you think, were anyone these PIS?

Panther vs Sabertooth

Panther vs. Iron Man

Panther vs. Namor

Panther vs. Doom

Panther vs Luke Cage

Panther vs. FF

Panther vs. Wolverine

Panther vs Cap

Panther vs Red Skull

Any other battles you can think of?

The only showing that was PIS was his showing against Namor. He hit Namor so hard (who was previously soaked in water, and possesses superhuman strength and durability out of the scope of T'Challa's ability to damage him) that he sent him flying.

The other showings were perfectly legit. T'Challa couldn't beat Sabretooth; he was nearly defeated by him on two occasions. T'Challa used prep against Iron Man, Doom, and Fantastic Four, incapacitating them. He used pressure point strikes on Luke. He never defeated Wolverine (and vice versa) in an actual fight, but he was fast and skilled enough to humiliate him. He broke Red Skull's jaw in half.

@Vance Astro said:

The only fight here that is PIS is the one with Cage because of the way it was written. Black Panther is totally capable of beating Luke Cage..just not the way he did. The rest of this stuff is completely viable and explained in the book. One that wasn't mentioned was his fight with Silver Surfer, which is outright PIS, but again Black Panther could have come up with a viable way to defeat the Surfer or subdue him or whatever, but (I believe it was McDuffie) chose to write that armlock bullcrap. Why him beating the Red Skull would be PIS is beyond me..if anything it would PIS if Red Skull had beaten him.

What was PIS about his showing against Luke?

McDuffie said that the Surfer allowed T'Challa to put that hold on him and let him think that he had him subdued so he could explain the Fantastic Four's significance for being out in the bearings of space. This isn't implied in the book, but that was what he said. Either way, T'Challa briefly took down Surfer with prep in the same book.

@Static Shock said:

@Mykhael said:

What do you think, were anyone these PIS?

Panther vs Sabertooth

Panther vs. Iron Man

Panther vs. Namor

Panther vs. Doom

Panther vs Luke Cage

Panther vs. FF

Panther vs. Wolverine

Panther vs Cap

Panther vs Red Skull

Any other battles you can think of?

The only showing that was PIS was his showing against Namor. He hit Namor so hard (who was previously soaked in water, and possesses superhuman strength and durability out of the scope of T'Challa's ability to damage him) that he sent him flying.

The other showings were perfectly legit. T'Challa couldn't beat Sabretooth; he was nearly defeated by him on two occasions. T'Challa used prep against Iron Man, Doom, and Fantastic Four, incapacitating them. He used pressure point strikes on Luke. He never defeated Wolverine (and vice versa) in an actual fight, but he was fast and skilled enough to humiliate him. He broke Red Skull's jaw in half.

The thing that people miss about the T'Challa Namor fight was that Namor left his feet against someone wearing a suit that zaps momentum, and a guy who could lift about a ton. Namor weighs what 278? When you lunge at someone in the air and there is a good chance that with enough powe they can send flying in the oppisite direction.

It happens to a lesser extent in football all the time, now imagine if a player could deliver 1000 pounds of presure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW-KAEiIb5Y

The Panther caught Namor slipping, and with his strength and because his suit stops momentum he was able to send Namor flying backwards.

Had Namor been standing then it might've been different.

@Mykhael said:

The thing that people miss about the T'Challa Namor fight was that Namor left his feet against someone wearing a suit that zaps momentum

The suit only saps momentum from oncoming attacks. It only works one way, and not the other way around.

What was PIS about his showing against Luke?

McDuffie said that the Surfer allowed T'Challa to put that hold on him and let him think that he had him subdued so he could explain the Fantastic Four's significance for being out in the bearings of space. This isn't implied in the book, but that was what he said. Either way, T'Challa briefly took down Surfer with prep in the same book.

@Vance Astro said:

It doesn't make sense that Luke Cage can be hurt by pressure points at all. Maybe if it was Iron Fist or Spider-Man that did it, it would make more sense..but Black Panther? I don't get it.

Even though someone posted a scan of someone who's probably not as skilled as T'Challa doing the same thing long before he did?

@Vance Astro said:

If Silver Surfer allowed Black Panther to put him in the hold then it's still ridiculous because Black Panther actually thought he could put a Herald in a submission that he wouldn't be able to get out of.

That was what the Surfer wanted, apparently. It's not like he couldn't break the hold. He wanted T'Challa to believe that he couldn't.

@Static Shock said:

@Mykhael said:

The thing that people miss about the T'Challa Namor fight was that Namor left his feet against someone wearing a suit that zaps momentum

The suit only saps momentum from oncoming attacks. It only works one way, and not the other way around.

But in the same way the Panther can jump off of a 5 story building, land and then leap again, it should work.

.It doesn't make sense that Luke Cage can be hurt by pressure points at all. Maybe if it was Iron Fist or Spider-Man that did it, it would make more sense..but Black Panther? I don't get it.

I honestly don' know enough about how deep pressure points are beaneth the skin to know if it's truely logical or not, but its not the most far fetched thing I've seen in comics.

Also, has any of you guys been put in a crossface chicken wing? Everyone screams PIS about it and I know BP and SS are

not anywhere close to being equal in physical strength but I've never seen anyone break a crossface chicken regardless of strength. If SS is anatomically

Human as the scene states Surfer may have not been able to break the move applied properly.

Well, we don't have to worry about the "arm-bar" now! Thanks guys. :) would not have happened without you!

@Mykhael said:

But in the same way the Panther can jump off of a 5 story building, land and then leap again, it should work.

That's what the vibranium soles are for. Even then, the suit doesn't work in the way you mentioned.

@Mykhael said:

If SS is anatomically Human as the scene states Surfer may have not been able to break the move applied properly.

McDuffie says otherwise.

@Static Shock said:

@Mykhael said:

What do you think, were anyone these PIS?

Panther vs Sabertooth

Panther vs. Iron Man

Panther vs. Namor

Panther vs. Doom

Panther vs Luke Cage

Panther vs. FF

Panther vs. Wolverine

Panther vs Cap

Panther vs Red Skull

Any other battles you can think of?

The only showing that was PIS was his showing against Namor. He hit Namor so hard (who was previously soaked in water, and possesses superhuman strength and durability out of the scope of T'Challa's ability to damage him) that he sent him flying.

The other showings were perfectly legit. T'Challa couldn't beat Sabretooth; he was nearly defeated by him on two occasions. T'Challa used prep against Iron Man, Doom, and Fantastic Four, incapacitating them. He used pressure point strikes on Luke. He never defeated Wolverine (and vice versa) in an actual fight, but he was fast and skilled enough to humiliate him. He broke Red Skull's jaw in half.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love that man

Even though someone posted a scan of someone who's probably not as skilled as T'Challa doing the same thing long before he did?

That was what the Surfer wanted, apparently. It's not like he couldn't break the hold. He wanted T'Challa to believe that he couldn't.

@Vance Astro said:

Skill doesn't have anything to do with it. Which is why I said If Iron Fist or SPIDER-MAN had done it, it would make more sense.

If two people other than them managed to pull it off, how does it make less sense? O_o

@Vance Astro said:

That's not my point. The point is T'Challa actually THOUGHT he put Silver Surfer in a position he couldn't get out of...it would actually make more sense if he COULDN'T get out.

So, T'Challa believe that he could pull it off is what doesn't make sense to you?

If two people other than them managed to pull it off, how does it make less sense? O_O

So, T'Challa believe that he could pull it off is what doesn't make sense to you?

It makes sense because Cage skin is not hard, it's malleable. And this is fiction. In fiction there is something called Dim Mak! Which is a "internal" energy technique. making your whole argument moot. His skin doesn't matter.

It makes sense because Cage skin is not hard, it's malleable. 

And this is fiction. 

 In fiction there is something called Dim Mak! Which is a "internal" energy technique. making your whole argument moot. His skin doesn't matter.

@Vance Astro said:

Luke Cage has Titanium\Steel like skin. So it would only make sense that you'd have to hit extremely hard to strike a nerve and cause him damage. Just because it HAPPENED doesn't mean it makes sense.

I gotta disagree with you there.

@Vance Astro said:

Luke Cage has Titanium\Steel like skin. So it would only make sense that you'd have to hit extremely hard to strike a nerve and cause him damage. Just because it HAPPENED doesn't mean it makes sense.

I gotta disagree with you there.

@Vance Astro: The fact that you think it doesn't make sense.

@Vance Astro: The fact that you think it doesn't make sense.

@Vance Astro: If it's been done on more than one occasion, I take it for what it is. That's just me. I'd understand if it was done once, and then never done again. Then, I might question it.

Vance don't you realize that comics are not real? There are no people in real life like Ironfist. You are the one who lacks knowledge on the subject, otherwise YOU would know what Dim mak is and the fact it has been use in tons of genres.! There are entire novels dealing with it. YOU assume it's a physical attack, when it's not. You keep trying to put T'challa into a box. Why does it have to be a real technique? It's a fiction style based on internal matial arts, seen all the time in Wuxia.

Vance don't you realize that comics are not real? There are no people in real life like Ironfist. You are the one who lacks knowledge on the subject, otherwise YOU would know what Dim mak is and the fact it has been use in tons of genres.! There are entire novels dealing with it. YOU assume it's a physical attack, when it's not. You keep trying to put T'challa into a box. Why does it have to be a real technique? It's a fiction style based on internal matial arts, seen all the time in Wuxia.

@Vance Astro: If it's been done on more than one occasion, I take it for what it is. That's just me. I'd understand if it was done once, and then never done again. Then, I might question it.

Attacking a nerve cluster does not mean the skin was broken. It means the nerve cluster under said skin was effected. Cage's durability lies in his titanium like skin but the underlying tissue, though more durable than normal, still is subject to the same vulnerabilities as anyone else probably to a higher extent.

@Vance Astro said:

Consistency doesn't necessarily mean it's logical though, because characters with super speed consistently get hit by characters they shouldn't, because otherwise they would never lose..I don't think you would argue in battle forums that street levelers can tag the Flash, but they've always done it. So why is this different?

A lot of illogical things consistently happen in comic books, though. I probably wouldn't argue that a street leveler could tag the Flash, even if Deathstroke did it. But, Deathstroke was only able to do it because the Flash wasn't going all out, thus, in most of their encounters, he's not moving as fast as should be, allowing Deathstroke's enhanced reflexes to take advantage of that. Flash has already demonstrate that if he really wanted to beat Deathstroke, he could.

The situation here is different, because it's not exclusive to Black Panther and Luke Cage. This is a recurring motif within comic books when street-leveler characters have exploited an opponent's superhuman durability (which would normally depend on the level of superhuman durability) with nerve strikes and pressure point attacks.

Attacking a nerve cluster does not mean the skin was broken. It means the nerve cluster under said skin was effected. Cage's durability lies in his titanium like skin but the underlying tissue, though more durable than normal, still is subject to the same vulnerabilities as anyone else probably to a higher extent.

Because his skin still maintains it's elasticity. Cage's skin is unbreakable not unplyable. Thats why when he is shot bullets make indentation in his skin before falling to the ground. Additionally Cage has stated that bullets, explosions, etc still hurt on multiple occasions they just don't cause any real damage.

@Vance Astro: You can still bend titanium, it just has a higher level of rigidity. It can still be compressed. And as long as Cage is anatomically correct, he still maintains nerve cluster vulnerability.

@Vance Astro: You can still bend titanium, it just has a higher level of rigidity. It can still be compressed. And as long as Cage is anatomically correct, he still maintains nerve cluster vulnerability.

Because his skin still maintains it's elasticity. Cage's skin is unbreakable not unplyable. Thats why when he is shot bullets make indentation in his skin before falling to the ground. Additionally Cage has stated that bullets, explosions, etc still hurt on multiple occasions they just don't cause any real damage.

Here the thing his Cage skin is malleable. His skin has the tensile strength of Titanium. He's not rigid and stiff Like Steel. It hyperbole maybe, he's skin is bullet proof... And imho, that is what you are doing Vance. You are making a baseless claim on your beliefs of how something should be, making a claim that you know more then the writer,what he was doing and thinking..when it's all right there on the page... and clearly marvel doesn't agree with this. What Liss did was fine. Why is there a need to place limitation on a fictional martial arts move or how the move is performed...when I gave you an example where it's workings are different.. and why does it have to be the same move as other characters. The move T'challa performed was was indeed a "Dim Mak", not even a strike either...but pinch. Yet you clearly missed that. Also note the kid saying he did the Valcan Grip from Star trek. he's doing it.. It's is a "Dim Mak" move...a Wakandan version...and shows what Liss was thinking when writing this.. Press and transfer energy..that's what Dim Mak is...how hard doesn't matter with this move, and faux-fan rules don't either. There was nothing PIS at all about it.. about a dude who talks to a Cat God by crewing roots.. And doing Dim Mak (press and transfer of energy= Qi) on a guy with titanium hard skin.. And I have seen strikes on Cage which have worked.. Not example why a fantastical Valcan Pinch grip or why it shouldn't work...durability doesn't matter here, because it's not the physical act, but the energy transfer.

Here the thing his Cage skin is malleable. His skin has the tensile strength of Titanium. He's not rigid and stiff Like Steel. It hyperbole maybe, he's skin is bullet proof... 

And imho, that is what you are doing Vance. You are making a baseless claim on your beliefs of how something should be, making a claim that you know more then the writer,what he was doing and thinking..when it's all right there on the page..

when I gave you an example where it's workings are different.. and why does it have to be the same move as other characters. The move T'challa performed was was indeed a "Dim Mak", not even a strike either...but pinch. Yet you clearly missed that. Also note the kid saying he did the Valcan Grip from Star trek. he's doing it.. It's is a "Dim Mak" move...a Wakandan version...and shows what Liss was thinking when writing this.. Press and transfer energy..that's what Dim Mak is...how hard doesn't matter with this move, and faux-fan rules don't either. There was nothing PIS at all about it.. about a dude who talks to a Cat God by crewing roots.. And doing Dim Mak (press and transfer of energy= Qi) on a guy with titanium hard skin.. And I have seen strikes on Cage which have worked.. Not example why a fantastical Valcan Pinch grip or why it shouldn't work...durability doesn't matter here, because it's not the physical act, but the energy transfer.

LMAO, and he didn't do a nerve strike. Smh. And it has nothing to do with "wikipedia" ...you are wrong. I'm gave you a clear example. The Valcan Grap from star trek, which is mentioned in the scene Vance..and I don't think Marvel agrees with your description of Cage. Again the hardness of his skin does not matter against a internal martial art.

LMAO, and he didn't do a nerve strike. 

.and I don't think Marvel agrees with your description of Cage. 

Again the hardness of his skin does not matter against a internal martial art.

http://www.formspring.me/TomBrevoort/q/314029065185003479

Bullet proof...again. I don't think he's like you are saying. His skin has the tensile strength of Titanium...beyond that his skin breaks. That's it.