Reginald Hudlin Talks 'Black Panther: Flags of Our Fathers'

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Posted by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio

As many of you may know, I had been a huge fan of Reginald Hudlin's run on Black Panther for a long time. When Hudlin left the character in the recent story arc, I admit I was a bit disappointed. So, naturally, when I realized he would be making his return to the character in the mini series ' Flags of Our Fathers,' I was really excited. Needless to say, the series has been pretty interesting overall and it has been great to see the writer pen the Marvel character once more. We caught up with Hudlin recently to discuss the release of his mini series, and what we can expect from him in the future. Check out the interview below!
 
Comic Vine: For years, you were behind Black Panther as the writer for his series. What is it like to return to the character? Was Flags of our Fathers a story you had planned for a long time?
Reginald Hudlin: It was great to return to BLACK PANTHER.  I was very proud of delivering a monthly book on time for four years while programming a network, but after a while I hit the wall on all of it.  But doing a mini-series that didn’t involving coordinating character usage within a company wide event was a pleasure.  Not that I don’t enjoy those.  I’ve been loving SEIGE as a reader.  But happy to sit it out as a creator.
I had wanted to do “historical” tales of previous Black Panthers for a while. I touched on it in the Black Panther annual, but knew there was a richer vein.  I sometimes thought about doing back up stories, like the old TALES OF ASGARD in THOR, but never had time to focus on it till now.
== TEASER ==
CV: Where did you get the inspiration for Flags of Our Fathers?
RH: The story came from a desire to do a comic with Denys Cowan.  We’ve been friends for a long time – the Milestone crew have really been key mentors to me in the comic book game. We’ve worked on animation projects, planned comic book concepts, but never actually did a book together.  Since I was already writing Black Panther we started there, and we talked about exploring the relationship between The Panther and Captain America. 

CV: Last year at San Diego we saw a clip of the Black Panther animated cartoon, do you have any news regarding that project?
RH: Every one whose seen it via bootleg seems to love it.  It will be available legally sooner or later.

CV: Are you still heavily involved in the current Black Panther/Doom War storyline?
RH: No, I mapped out where I thought the series should go in terms of T’Challa getting revenge on Doom, but it’s Jonathan Mayberry’s book now.  I’m on the edge of my seat just like everyone else.
 
CV: Was it hard for you to leave the character? Will you ever return to write BP's ongoing?
RH:  I had to.  I was just pooped.  And now that I was free to make movies and TV shows, I needed to focus on that for a while. 
 
CV: What character would you like to write that you haven't? Is there a story you would like to tell?
RH:  There’s certainly characters and stories I’d like to play with in “mainstream” comics, but right now I’m focusing on some graphic novel projects and creator-owned material.
 
CV: Are you working on any other comic projects? Any projects unrelated to comic books?
RH: I can’t announce them yet, it’s too soon.  But the scope is very large.
 
Hopefully this means we'll be the ones to get the scoop on what Reggie has up his sleeve? Have you been reading Flags of Our Fathers?
#1 Posted by sharky64 (72 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I will check it out

#2 Posted by Marius138 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

#3 Posted by noname2062 (51 posts) - - Show Bio

I've certainly enjoyed the series so far, and his run on BP was great as well.  Looking forward to his future works.

#4 Edited by FoxxFireArt (3536 posts) - - Show Bio

There is something so awkward about that image, but I still seem to like it a lot. Something about that expression doesn't seem that far off, but that's hardly the topic at hand.
 
T'Challa really has had a bit of a downward slope recently. I was a big supporter about his relationship with Storm. I loved the Worlds Apart story. Now,......... Well, you know.
 
I like how it points out the freedom of not having to align the story to some massive event and just concentrate on the story. That calls back to one of my largest complaints about the repetitive "events" Marvel has been having. I believe they are slowly strangling the life out of the stories. You can't just pick a book and enjoy it. You are almost forced into an event and they don't seem to be stopping.

#5 Posted by Violet-Eyed Dragon (2271 posts) - - Show Bio

reginald hudson is an AWESOME writer

#6 Posted by Illuminarch (243 posts) - - Show Bio
@Axdemon said:
" Wow, Babs being a fan of Hudlin fits in so well with her character. Oh well, at least now I can officially not give a fuck about anything she has to say about anything. "
What's not to like about Hudlin? That confrontation between Doom and Black Panther where T'Challa talks about Africa being filled with high-culture, high-technology civilizations before bloodthirsty imperialist (but still physically and mentally inferior) whitey demolished Black Utopia is one of the funniest scenes I can remember in a Marvel comic. I laughed and laughed...
 
Seriously though, I'm actually quite astonished that Reginald Hudlin has any fans. I would have thought that even Afrocentrists would find him too much to swallow.
#7 Posted by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio

It's perfectly fine to disagree with me, but please do watch your language.

#8 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3536 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs said:
" It's perfectly fine to disagree with me, but please do watch your language. "
I wish more people in message boards had this level of etiquette. It's one thing to disagree, but cursing and name calling really have no place in a mature discussion. 
As my football coach once said to me, " Cussing in the last resort of the uneducated mind. " 
Not that I never curse, though. lol

Having differing opinions doesn't not make one either right or wrong.
#9 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black. 
Moderator
#10 Posted by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive?
#11 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive? "
It's hard to explain what it is about Hudlin's writing that I don't like. Too me it seems like Black Panther has too many things going for him.Unlike all the other heroes he doesn't seem to have any flaws. Even when he loses he still wins.He's too smart,too good of a fighter, too rich, too powerful.He has everything.Oh and let's not forget he lives in a part of Africa that is more technologically advanced than any part of the entire earth. You see where i'm going with this? I like Black Panther but it would be nice if he was a little less perfect. 
Moderator
#12 Edited by .Mistress Redhead. (27082 posts) - - Show Bio
@Axdemon said:
There are better ways to say that you disagree with someone dude.
#13 Edited by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" @Babs said:

" @Vance Astro said:

" As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive? "
It's hard to explain what it is about Hudlin's writing that I don't like. Too me it seems like Black Panther has too many things going for him.Unlike all the other heroes he doesn't seem to have any flaws. Even when he loses he still wins.He's too smart,too good of a fighter, too rich, too powerful.He has everything.Oh and let's not forget he lives in a part of Africa that is more technologically advanced than any part of the entire earth. You see where i'm going with this? I like Black Panther but it would be nice if he was a little less perfect.  "
That's not controversial though, that's just your opinion. I feel like Hudlin gets all this flack for being controversial and racially unaware or something. Where is it stemming from? THAT'S what I want to know...
 
So you feel like he has the "Superman" complex and that's why you don't like him? But you like Supes, don't you? And you love Wonder Woman? Namor is written similarly, he is the King of Atlantis, all powerful and seemingly flawless, no? Doom is also the same way. Maybe it's just the Marvel King complex. It seems to be common in that universe. 
 
Here's something I don't like about BP: he's got an entourage of martyrs that will do anything for him, and they're all women. I can't stand how females are so often objectified in BP comics. It's almost as though it is an element of his character.It actually pisses me off, but that's fine. I don't attribute that characteristic to Hudlin. I attribute it to BP. 
#14 Posted by SuperXAsh (506 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Babs said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive? "
It's hard to explain what it is about Hudlin's writing that I don't like. Too me it seems like Black Panther has too many things going for him.Unlike all the other heroes he doesn't seem to have any flaws. Even when he loses he still wins.He's too smart,too good of a fighter, too rich, too powerful.He has everything.Oh and let's not forget he lives in a part of Africa that is more technologically advanced than any part of the entire earth. You see where i'm going with this? I like Black Panther but it would be nice if he was a little less perfect.  "

I agree, he has WAY too many back-up plans, is shown to be virtually perfect, and almost infallible. Even with guys like Doctor Doom he's shown to be unbeatable, hell he practically fought off the Skrull Invasion of Wakanda single-handedly. 
 
I also didn't like how he and Storm were forced to marry by editorial decree. Hardly shown any interest in each other before then, and suddenly they're "destined to marry", which kinda made Storm look like a horrible tease to poor Forge.
#15 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs said:
" @Vance Astro said:

" @Babs said:

" @Vance Astro said:
" As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive? "
It's hard to explain what it is about Hudlin's writing that I don't like. Too me it seems like Black Panther has too many things going for him.Unlike all the other heroes he doesn't seem to have any flaws. Even when he loses he still wins.He's too smart,too good of a fighter, too rich, too powerful.He has everything.Oh and let's not forget he lives in a part of Africa that is more technologically advanced than any part of the entire earth. You see where i'm going with this? I like Black Panther but it would be nice if he was a little less perfect.  "
That's not controversial though, that's just your opinion. I feel like Hudlin gets all this flack for being controversial and racially unaware or something. Where is it stemming from? THAT'S what I want to know...  So you feel like he has the "Superman" complex and that's why you don't like him? But you like Supes, don't you? And you love Wonder Woman? Namor is written similarly, he is the King of Atlantis, all powerful and seemingly flawless, no? Doom is also the same way. Maybe it's just the Marvel King complex. It seems to be common in that universe.   Here's something I don't like about BP: he's got an entourage of martyrs that will do anything for him, and they're all women. I can't stand how females are so often objectified in BP comics. It's almost as though it is an element of his character.It actually pisses me off, but that's fine. I don't attribute that characteristic to Hudlin. I attribute it to BP.  "
I didn't say anything was controversial about his writing.I don't like his writing because his Black Panther has too little flaws. As far as being controversial or racially unaware.That's not the problem I have with him. I don't think Hudlin is so much racially unaware as he attempting to make the African race seem superior to all others. It's not just Black Panther who doesn't have any flaws.It's Wakandans in general.They are the smartest people on earth,they are the best fighters, they live in the one nation in Africa that has never been subject to the slave trade,and other things that other African areas have to deal with.Etc. etc.  
 
I don't like Superman.I appreciate Superman as a character though. And yes I love Wonder Woman.The difference is Superman is an alien, Wonder Woman is an Amazon, and Namor is an Atlantean. Wakandans are a human race. And their entire being is ridiculous.There is nothing flawless about Atlantis or Namor.It seems like Unlike other writers Hudlin more focuses on how much better than everyone Wakandans are than everyone until his most recent writing instead of giving Black Panther a worthy obstacle to overcome.In Priest's run he was an actual street level hero. In Hudlin's..he's just the King of Wakanda.He tries to make him unbeatable to everyone even if he has to use a plot device.
Moderator
#16 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@SuperXAsh said:
 I also didn't like how he and Storm were forced to marry by editorial decree. Hardly shown any interest in each other before then, and suddenly they're "destined to marry", which kinda made Storm look like a horrible tease to poor Forge. "
I don't agree with this.Alot of people think that this is something that Marvel just came up with on the spot but Storm and Black Panther actually have history together.Their first team up was in like the 60's and it was established long ago he was her first love.I think Storm had a one-shot in the 90's that also went back to when she was a kid and the same thing with Black Panther was discovered.Also they were married in several other alternate universes.
Moderator
#17 Posted by llagrok (677 posts) - - Show Bio

ITT: People implying Superman has no weaknesses. 
 
Hudlin' is a godawful writer and  if he's not putting Black Panther skyhigh, then he's busy putting down other characters. If he wrote the Black Panther stories in a self-contained universe then it might have worked, but when you have to relate to 616's myriad of other characters and their respective histories, it just does not work.

#18 Posted by Illuminarch (243 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs said:

That's not controversial though, that's just your opinion. I feel like Hudlin gets all this flack for being controversial and racially unaware or something. Where is it stemming from? THAT'S what I want to know...  So you feel like he has the "Superman" complex and that's why you don't like him? But you like Supes, don't you? And you love Wonder Woman? Namor is written similarly, he is the King of Atlantis, all powerful and seemingly flawless, no? Doom is also the same way. Maybe it's just the Marvel King complex. It seems to be common in that universe.   Here's something I don't like about BP: he's got an entourage of martyrs that will do anything for him, and they're all women. I can't stand how females are so often objectified in BP comics. It's almost as though it is an element of his character.It actually pisses me off, but that's fine. I don't attribute that characteristic to Hudlin. I attribute it to BP.  "

Racially unaware? I'm not even sure what that means, but I don't think that fits. Hudlin is extremely aware of his racial views. He wears them on his sleeve and wrote them into the Civil War era Black Panther stories with aplomb (maybe other issues too, but they're the only ones I read). He's all about black superiority and white inferiority. 
Now on a purely theoretical level that's fine --   he's full of spit, but that's his business. When he writes it into the comic, however (and the example I gave of his confrontation with Doom just after his wedding to Storm plays that up to the hilt), I'm not going to think much of him as a writer. Black Panther is too strong, too fast, too skilled, too brilliant, too rich, and too unstoppable, and his country is just like him. Vance has hit the nail on the head, here.
#19 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@llagrok said:
" ITT: People implying Superman has no weaknesses.  Hudlin' is a godawful writer and  if he's not putting Black Panther skyhigh, then he's busy putting down other characters. If he wrote the Black Panther stories in a self-contained universe then it might have worked, but when you have to relate to 616's myriad of other characters and their respective histories, it just does not work. "
I kind of agree with this.He can't just make Black Panther look good he has to make everyone else look worse in comparison.
Moderator
#20 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3536 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro: 
I think i can understand where you are coming from. If a character is already so high in their position to begin with. Where is there for them to go from there? You can only do the "fall from grace" and back again sort of tale so many times before it becomes as much of a joke as Jean Grey's deaths (feels so odd that always needs to be plural).
A character that isn't dynamic really isn't very interesting to read about. There seems to be little direction or room for him to grow.
 
I still rail against the idea when people start confusing their opinions of a story or writer as some kind of dogma that all must follow. If you don't like something. That's fine. Leave it to those who do. (I could expand on that, but this is hardly the place.)
 
From the perspective of the outward observer to this conversation/brawl. I'm just speculating here, but I believe that what Babs is eluding to as far as the "controversial" aspect she was asking about. I think she's more just confused by this sudden knee jerk reaction that various people seemed to be having to Hudlin. Suspecting that there must be some level of controversy behind it to warrant such enmity. I think she's asking to know what is it that he has done "specifically" to earn all this wrath.
Got to admit. I'm a tad curious myself.
 
She fully admits there are aspects of the Black Panther character that get under her skin, but doesn't necessarily lay the weight of that onto Hudlin. It doesn't seem reasonable that you blame this one writer for your opinion of the character as a whole.
#21 Posted by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio
@Illuminarch said:
" @Babs said:

That's not controversial though, that's just your opinion. I feel like Hudlin gets all this flack for being controversial and racially unaware or something. Where is it stemming from? THAT'S what I want to know...  So you feel like he has the "Superman" complex and that's why you don't like him? But you like Supes, don't you? And you love Wonder Woman? Namor is written similarly, he is the King of Atlantis, all powerful and seemingly flawless, no? Doom is also the same way. Maybe it's just the Marvel King complex. It seems to be common in that universe.   Here's something I don't like about BP: he's got an entourage of martyrs that will do anything for him, and they're all women. I can't stand how females are so often objectified in BP comics. It's almost as though it is an element of his character.It actually pisses me off, but that's fine. I don't attribute that characteristic to Hudlin. I attribute it to BP.  "

Racially unaware? I'm not even sure what that means, but I don't think that fits. Hudlin is extremely aware of his racial views. He wears them on his sleeve and wrote them into the Civil War era Black Panther stories with aplomb (maybe other issues too, but they're the only ones I read). He's all about black superiority and white inferiority.  Now on a purely theoretical level that's fine --   he's full of spit, but that's his business. When he writes it into the comic, however (and the example I gave of his confrontation with Doom just after his wedding to Storm plays that up to the hilt), I'm not going to think much of him as a writer. Black Panther is too strong, too fast, too skilled, too brilliant, too rich, and too unstoppable, and his country is just like him. Vance has hit the nail on the head, here. "

 The term "racially unaware" can be googled for clarification. I'm not sure the term fits either, but considering I didn't know what everyone's problem is with Hudlin, it is hard to pick a word to explain the problem without knowing what the problem is. But you seemed to answer the question anyway so thanks for your contribution. :)
 
Can you provide examples? Story arcs? Issues? Same goes to you Vance. Thanks!
#22 Posted by No_Name_ (17403 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Babs said:
" @Vance Astro said:

" @Babs said:

" @Vance Astro said:
" As a Cap and Black Panther...I thought I'd be more enthusiastic about this but i'm not.In fact I don't care at all.It's weird.Maybe once I start reading this it will bring some excitement.I'm not so thrilled about Hudlin.He has good ideas but he doesn't always execute them well.The volume of Black Panther where Shuri was Black Panther.Wasn't bad though.He's getting better. He's learned to write a hero comic instead of this Pro-Black,Black people are better than everyone type stuff.His Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive? "
It's hard to explain what it is about Hudlin's writing that I don't like. Too me it seems like Black Panther has too many things going for him.Unlike all the other heroes he doesn't seem to have any flaws. Even when he loses he still wins.He's too smart,too good of a fighter, too rich, too powerful.He has everything.Oh and let's not forget he lives in a part of Africa that is more technologically advanced than any part of the entire earth. You see where i'm going with this? I like Black Panther but it would be nice if he was a little less perfect.  "
That's not controversial though, that's just your opinion. I feel like Hudlin gets all this flack for being controversial and racially unaware or something. Where is it stemming from? THAT'S what I want to know...  So you feel like he has the "Superman" complex and that's why you don't like him? But you like Supes, don't you? And you love Wonder Woman? Namor is written similarly, he is the King of Atlantis, all powerful and seemingly flawless, no? Doom is also the same way. Maybe it's just the Marvel King complex. It seems to be common in that universe.   Here's something I don't like about BP: he's got an entourage of martyrs that will do anything for him, and they're all women. I can't stand how females are so often objectified in BP comics. It's almost as though it is an element of his character.It actually pisses me off, but that's fine. I don't attribute that characteristic to Hudlin. I attribute it to BP.  "
I didn't say anything was controversial about his writing.I don't like his writing because his Black Panther has too little flaws. As far as being controversial or racially unaware.That's not the problem I have with him. I don't think Hudlin is so much racially unaware as he attempting to make the African race seem superior to all others. It's not just Black Panther who doesn't have any flaws.It's Wakandans in general.They are the smartest people on earth,they are the best fighters, they live in the one nation in Africa that has never been subject to the slave trade,and other things that other African areas have to deal with.Etc. etc.   I don't like Superman.I appreciate Superman as a character though. And yes I love Wonder Woman.The difference is Superman is an alien, Wonder Woman is an Amazon, and Namor is an Atlantean. Wakandans are a human race. And their entire being is ridiculous.There is nothing flawless about Atlantis or Namor.It seems like Unlike other writers Hudlin more focuses on how much better than everyone Wakandans are than everyone until his most recent writing instead of giving Black Panther a worthy obstacle to overcome.In Priest's run he was an actual street level hero. In Hudlin's..he's just the King of Wakanda.He tries to make him unbeatable to everyone even if he has to use a plot device. "
I didn't say you said it was controversial, I was simply asking someone more well versed on the subject matierial why some people find his writing controversial. 
 
Thanks for your opinion, though. Perhaps you can provide references to support your argument?
#23 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:

" @Vance Astro: 
I think i can understand where you are coming from. If a character is already so high in their position to begin with. Where is there for them to go from there? You can only do the "fall from grace" and back again sort of tale so many times before it becomes as much of a joke as Jean Grey's deaths (feels so odd that always needs to be plural) .
A character that isn't dynamic really isn't very interesting to read about. There seems to be little direction or room for him to grow.
 
I still rail against the idea when people start confusing their opinions of a story or writer as some kind of dogma that all must follow. If you don't like something. That's fine. Leave it to those who do. (I could expand on that, but this is hardly the place.)
 
From the perspective of the outward observer to this conversation/brawl. I'm just speculating here, but I believe that what Babs is eluding to as far as the "controversial" aspect she was asking about. I think she's more just confused by this sudden knee jerk reaction that various people seemed to be having to Hudlin. Suspecting that there must be some level of controversy behind it to warrant such enmity. I think she's asking to know what is it that he has done "specifically" to earn all this wrath. Got to admit. I'm a tad curious myself.  She fully admits there are aspects of the Black Panther character that get under her skin, but doesn't necessarily lay the weight of that onto Hudlin. It doesn't seem reasonable that you blame this one writer for your opinion of the character as a whole. "

 
Well first of all, I never said I didn't like Black Panther or that Hudlin ruined the character for me. I don't like Hudlin's writing but I never stopped reading Black Panther because he was writing it. Similar to how much I hate Brian Michael Bendis but even after all of his screw ups I still continue to read all the Avengers books. I am loyal to my favorite comics. I will see it through to see what happens to my favorite characters no matter what.If Marvel felt it fit to hire this guy he can't be THAT bad. 
 
@Babs said:

I didn't say you said it was controversial, I was simply asking someone more well versed on the subject matierial why some people find his writing controversial.   Thanks for your opinion, though. Perhaps you can provide references to support your argument? "

Well I guess I would be more versed on Black Panther having read several volumes. I think in the book Hudlin over-exaggerates what T'Challa can do and then it doesn't really leave any room for the character to progress. You read Secret Invasion, correct? In Black Panther #40 he fights this skrull who has Luke Cage's strength and durability,Bullseye's aim,and Wolverine style claws. You see T'Challa can't hit him head on because he would hurt himself. As he states in the captions. Then maybe two pages later..T'Challa rips the skrulls arm off.He also rips his leg open off panel.As some people have agreed here it's this type of stuff.. the "T'Challa is better than everyone" crap that people can't stand.He took out some of the most powerful skrulls in the Wakandan Invasion by himself. I referenced Black Panther's annual earlier this is what was said about it.... 

I didn't like it either. But, feel free to shoot the President of BET dead. Because he is the one writing BP now, and he's not doing a good job.  

 
 Static Shock said:

I didn't like it either. But, feel free to shoot the President of BET dead. Because he is the one writing BP now, and he's not doing a good job.
As for the comic itself, I thought it sucked. I didn't want to see an annual about what happened during T'Challa and Storm's marriage in the future. Don't care about that. I wanted to see something pivotal of some sort. But, with Reggie Hudlin (Pres. of BET) writing it, pivotal events will not exist. Well, I take that back. The only thing pivotal in volume four of BP is T'Challa and Storm get married. That's about it    


 Vance Astro said:

  I hope Marvel gets Hudlin off the project ASAP.Black Panther and Storm are becoming very watered down.I miss Civil War Storm and T'challa.They were f#ckin hardcore.Black Panther took on Iron Man and Storm chewed out Namor for being in love with Sue Storm..it was great.Now they're giving history lessons and being all mushy.It's weak.The dialouge seems like someone who doesn't know comics wrote it.Black to the Future is a horrible name for an annual and the whole premise of it was so ridiculous.I was hoping Black Panther to do something meaningful and I got a what if instead.A ridiculous what if.It was almost as bad as when Damage Control fought Galactus and Death a bunch of other ridiculous celestials and comics level people.F#CK YOU Hudlin 


 G-Man said:

I thought it was a some-what below average "future" story. The X-Men have done so many and Fantastic Four: The End really seemed ambitious to me compared to this. The only thing that I really enjoyed was seeing an extremely overweight Wolverine at the wedding. Priceless!  


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#24 Edited by Ryonslaught (1237 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. Hudlin himself..... @Babs: your 1st interview with this guy made me give him a chance and for the most part I liked his BP vol3 stuff......for the most part.....Vol4? I was hesitant but liked this more than vol3 BUT Hudlin has always been pretty hit or miss, when its a good story it sings when bad? oh my does it stink! This mini? Absolutely terrible! art story, retcon the whole shebang!   
 
I love Babs but Huldin...dude....sorry but this mini was pretty pointless and terrible to boot!
 
@Vance Astro:
You make some great points all completely valid.

#25 Posted by IamSilkmane (12 posts) - - Show Bio


Usually, I just read and try to follow along eith the discussion from the side lines; however, the concern that BP is/was written as being too flawless... is quite puzzling.   
 
I think some are missing the proper perspective:  
1) Black Panther is the King of Wakanda - if you accept that premise, then the next part should be easier to accept 
2) Wakanda is a place where Afican technology and culture was allowed to continue unchecked by detrimental influences - if you accept that premise, then the next part should be easier to accept 
3) Certain storyarcs and dialogues based on the aformentioned pionts are legitimate parts of the BP storyline 
 
Basically, if you look at the Thor series in it's totallity.  Whether your pro or con concerning norse mythologies: the storyarcs that have been written are consistent with the popular concept of the Nordic hero and are in actuallity just someone contribution to being true to those respective storylines.
Consider Tony Stark as Iron Man.  Whether you believe that a man with a heart condition can with little to no help stave off his severe heart constraints long enough to engineer battle armor out various parts of metal substances and such.  Again without suffering heart failure as he had to do this based on life threatening conditions. 
 The same could be said for BatMan who without any true meta human power other than his above average IQ, convincingly holds his own against criminals of both street and galactic threat levels. 
  
The Black Panther as a character has superman human strength, agility and senses.  He has studied under the best tutors in the world as any King would if one were being true to the story of prince to King storyline.  Reed Richards and Doom for that matter enjoy the same benefits of genius level heroics or such.  
I think some are over reaching in terms of their assesment of BP and Hudlins writing for that matter.  Storylines that are true to historical and true life perspectives are refreshing to me.  I especially enjoy a good read that causes me to see beyond the fiction of it all and just enjoy the ride for all it's worth.  That's what so many comics provide for me...   
I love the Dora Molaje and consider their "lay down my life for our King" true to a storyline based on a character from T'challa's neck of the world.  However, I can still see and respect how some might feel otherwise. 
 
I am Silkmane    
#26 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@IamSilkmane said:
" Usually, I just read and try to follow along eith the discussion from the side lines; however, the concern that BP is/was written as being too flawless... is quite puzzling.    I think some are missing the proper perspective:  1) Black Panther is the King of Wakanda - if you accept that premise, then the next part should be easier to accept 2) Wakanda is a place where Afican technology and culture was allowed to continue unchecked by detrimental influences - if you accept that premise, then the next part should be easier to accept 3) Certain storyarcs and dialogues based on the aformentioned pionts are legitimate parts of the BP storyline  Basically, if you look at the Thor series in it's totallity.  Whether your pro or con concerning norse mythologies: the storyarcs that have been written are consistent with the popular concept of the Nordic hero and are in actuallity just someone contribution to being true to those respective storylines.Consider Tony Stark as Iron Man.  Whether you believe that a man with a heart condition can with little to no help stave off his severe heart constraints long enough to engineer battle armor out various parts of metal substances and such.  Again without suffering heart failure as he had to do this based on life threatening conditions.  The same could be said for BatMan who without any true meta human power other than his above average IQ, convincingly holds his own against criminals of both street and galactic threat levels.   The Black Panther as a character has superman human strength, agility and senses.  He has studied under the best tutors in the world as any King would if one were being true to the story of prince to King storyline.  Reed Richards and Doom for that matter enjoy the same benefits of genius level heroics or such.  I think some are over reaching in terms of their assesment of BP and Hudlins writing for that matter.  Storylines that are true to historical and true life perspectives are refreshing to me.  I especially enjoy a good read that causes me to see beyond the fiction of it all and just enjoy the ride for all it's worth.  That's what so many comics provide for me...   I love the Dora Molaje and consider their "lay down my life for our King" true to a storyline based on a character from T'challa's neck of the world.  However, I can still see and respect how some might feel otherwise.  I am Silkmane     "
 
All of the characters you are trying to compare to Black Panther are nothing like him.He has alot of their strengths but none of their weaknesses.All of those characters have loads more flaws than T'Challa especially Tony Stark and Thor.Black Panther is built like a street leveler but every one of their flaws is taken out of it. Half of the threats they have to deal with as characters (and I don't mean attacks from villains I mean personal issues) T'Challa will never see.I understand he's a King but as people pointed out so are Namor and Doom. And even they are more imperfect than T'Challa. Funny how people can get into Atlantis,Latveria,and even Asgard and attack it but Wakanda can stay virtually undetected until Secret Invasion.
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#27 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3536 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" Well first of all, I never said I didn't like Black Panther or that Hudlin ruined the character for me. I don't like Hudlin's writing but I never stopped reading Black Panther because he was writing it. Similar to how much I hate Brian Michael Bendis but even after all of his screw ups I still continue to read all the Avengers books. I am loyal to my favorite comics. I will see it through to see what happens to my favorite characters no matter what.If Marvel felt it fit to hire this guy he can't be THAT bad.

Then were is all this anger coming from if not because you felt he ruined the character? It more makes it sound like you have something more against him personally.
 
I'm reading all these comments that keep saying "He sucks" "He Sucks", but no one is saying why they think he sucks. I am not fond of Fraction's writing on the X-Men, but I can point out what he's don't that I don't like.
I also have something against Joe Quesada for what he did to Spider-man.

@Babs said:

I didn't say you said it was controversial, I was simply asking someone more well versed on the subject matierial why some people find his writing controversial.   Thanks for your opinion, though. Perhaps you can provide references to support your argument? "

Well I guess I would be more versed on Black Panther having read several volumes. I think in the book Hudlin over-exaggerates what T'Challa can do and then it doesn't really leave any room for the character to progress. You read Secret Invasion, correct? In Black Panther #40 he fights this skrull who has Luke Cage's strength and durability,Bullseye's aim,and Wolverine style claws. You see T'Challa can't hit him head on because he would hurt himself. As he states in the captions. Then maybe two pages later..T'Challa rips the skrulls arm off.He also rips his leg open off panel.As some people have agreed here it's this type of stuff.. the "T'Challa is better than everyone" crap that people can't stand.He took out some of the most powerful skrulls in the Wakandan Invasion by himself. I referenced Black Panther's annual earlier this is what was said about it....  "

That does sound a bit silly, but that sort of thing happens in pretty much every series. In Civil War, Wolverine was charred to the point of there only being a metallic skeleton left, but about maybe 20 minutes later he was back up and fighting. If he could survive that, how could anything kill him?

He also stabbed Namor right in the chest with both sets of claws, but it didn't seem to even effect him. It's explained that Namor tells him that Wolverine should of aimed for his lungs. I'm pretty sure Wolverine knows where lungs are.
 
I still don't see what Hudlin has done that all the other writers haven't already. All this level of anger must be coming from some kind of personal controversy.

" I didn't like it either. But, feel free to shoot the President of BET dead. Because he is the one writing BP now, and he's not doing a good job. "

Don't you think that's going too far to wish death upon the man?
 
Even though I feel Quesada demolished the Spider-man series with OMD/BND. I'd never wish him any level of harm.
#28 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
Annual "Black to the Future" pissed me off so much.And I'm black.  "
I admit I never read his stuff from way back but picked up BP for the first time during this story arc and I loved it. The disassembling of T'Challa, the rise of Shuri, Namor, and the interaction with Doom. It was all great. The series grew considerably worse after Hudlin left the book and I eventually dropped BP. Maybe I'm ignorant on this front, but I don't quite understand the controversy behind the writer. What exactly has he written that is so offensive? " 
It's hard to explain what it is about Hudlin's writing that I don't like. Too me it seems like Black Panther has too many things going for him.Unlike all the other heroes he doesn't seem to have any flaws. Even when he loses he still wins.He's too smart,too good of a fighter, too rich, too powerful.He has everything.Oh and let's not forget he lives in a part of Africa that is more technologically advanced than any part of the entire earth. You see where i'm going with this? I like Black Panther but it would be nice if he was a little less perfect.  " 
I didn't say anything was controversial about his writing.I don't like his writing because his Black Panther has too little flaws. As far as being controversial or racially unaware.That's not the problem I have with him. I don't think Hudlin is so much racially unaware as he attempting to make the African race seem superior to all others. It's not just Black Panther who doesn't have any flaws.It's Wakandans in general.They are the smartest people on earth,they are the best fighters, they live in the one nation in Africa that has never been subject to the slave trade,and other things that other African areas have to deal with.Etc. etc.   I don't like Superman.I appreciate Superman as a character though. And yes I love Wonder Woman.The difference is Superman is an alien, Wonder Woman is an Amazon, and Namor is an Atlantean. Wakandans are a human race. And their entire being is ridiculous.There is nothing flawless about Atlantis or Namor.It seems like Unlike other writers Hudlin more focuses on how much better than everyone Wakandans are than everyone until his most recent writing instead of giving Black Panther a worthy obstacle to overcome.In Priest's run he was an actual street level hero. In Hudlin's..he's just the King of Wakanda.He tries to make him unbeatable to everyone even if he has to use a plot device. I know

I know I could count on good 'ol Vance to hate on the most respected Black character of all time...Don't blame Hudlin for Black Panther being smart or rich. In Fantastic Four issues # 52-53 (1966) Stan Lee established all that. Stan made Black Panther the richest man in the Marvel Universe. Stan Lee wrote Black Panther to out smart and defeat the Fantastic Four. Stan Lee gave Wakanda a mountain of Vibranium. Stan Lee made Wakanda the most technological advance nation on Earth.  Reed Richards was Wowed by Wakandan tech according to Stan Lee and you still think Hudlin is writing Panther to be flawless? Come on now, out of all the "White gods" and kings in the Marvel and DC Universe. You choose to bash the only Black king in both universes. To top it all off you try to justify it all by telling the Comic Vine community that you are Black. So what, I'm Black too and I laugh every time I see you give your two cents on how a Black character is being written.
#29 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said: 
I know I could count on good 'ol Vance to hate on the most respected Black character of all time...Don't blame Hudlin for Black Panther being smart or rich. In Fantastic Four issues # 52-53 (1966) Stan Lee established all that. Stan made Black Panther the richest man in the Marvel Universe. Stan Lee wrote Black Panther to out smart and defeat the Fantastic Four. Stan Lee gave Wakanda a mountain of Vibranium. Stan Lee made Wakanda the most technological advance nation on Earth.  Reed Richards was Wowed by Wakandan tech according to Stan Lee and you still think Hudlin is writing Panther to be flawless? Come on now, out of all the "White gods" and kings in the Marvel and DC Universe. You choose to bash the only Black king in both universes. To top it all off you try to justify it all by telling the Comic Vine community that you are Black. So what, I'm Black too and I laugh every time I see you give your two cents on how a Black character is being written. "
 
You didn't even read my post.Nothing you've responded with proves that.All you're doing is going on an on about how I bash or don't like Black superheroes.It's annoying at this point.I don't have to tell the CV community i'm black.I well known enough here that people KNOW i'm black.I only say it for the benefit of the noobs.If I was wrong about what I said about Hudlin..so many people wouldn't have agreed with me.I don't just like Black characters because their black.I actually read the comics and base my assessment of them on that. 
 
You don't have to tell me who gave Black Panther what, because writers like Priest and even Stan Lee have been able to write Black Panther in a way where he can play the underdog like most street levelers do.You know how every other hero fights a character that is physically or in some way out of their league and then comes up with a clever way to defeat them? Well Black Panther used to do that.He didn't just walk around with unbreakable armor,a sword that can cut through everything,and do things with his physical ability that we all know he can't.
 
And for the last time I DON'T DISLIKE BLACK PANTHER AS A CHARACTER.BLACK PANTHER AND HIS WIFE STORM ARE TWO OF MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS.I don't like how Hudlin writes Storm either but I do like how other writers have written her.
Moderator
#30 Edited by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:

" @Vance Astro said:

" Well first of all, I never said I didn't like Black Panther or that Hudlin ruined the character for me. I don't like Hudlin's writing but I never stopped reading Black Panther because he was writing it. Similar to how much I hate Brian Michael Bendis but even after all of his screw ups I still continue to read all the Avengers books. I am loyal to my favorite comics. I will see it through to see what happens to my favorite characters no matter what.If Marvel felt it fit to hire this guy he can't be THAT bad.

Then were is all this anger coming from if not because you felt he ruined the character? It more makes it sound like you have something more against him personally.
 
I'm reading all these comments that keep saying "He sucks" "He Sucks", but no one is saying why they think he sucks. I am not fond of Fraction's writing on the X-Men, but I can point out what he's don't that I don't like.
I also have something against Joe Quesada for what he did to Spider-man.

@Babs said:

I didn't say you said it was controversial, I was simply asking someone more well versed on the subject matierial why some people find his writing controversial.   Thanks for your opinion, though. Perhaps you can provide references to support your argument? "

Well I guess I would be more versed on Black Panther having read several volumes. I think in the book Hudlin over-exaggerates what T'Challa can do and then it doesn't really leave any room for the character to progress. You read Secret Invasion, correct? In Black Panther #40 he fights this skrull who has Luke Cage's strength and durability,Bullseye's aim,and Wolverine style claws. You see T'Challa can't hit him head on because he would hurt himself. As he states in the captions. Then maybe two pages later..T'Challa rips the skrulls arm off.He also rips his leg open off panel.As some people have agreed here it's this type of stuff.. the "T'Challa is better than everyone" crap that people can't stand.He took out some of the most powerful skrulls in the Wakandan Invasion by himself. I referenced Black Panther's annual earlier this is what was said about it....  "

That does sound a bit silly, but that sort of thing happens in pretty much every series. In Civil War, Wolverine was charred to the point of there only being a metallic skeleton left, but about maybe 20 minutes later he was back up and fighting. If he could survive that, how could anything kill him?

He also stabbed Namor right in the chest with both sets of claws, but it didn't seem to even effect him. It's explained that Namor tells him that Wolverine should of aimed for his lungs. I'm pretty sure Wolverine knows where lungs are.
 
I still don't see what Hudlin has done that all the other writers haven't already. All this level of anger must be coming from some kind of personal controversy.

" I didn't like it either. But, feel free to shoot the President of BET dead. Because he is the one writing BP now, and he's not doing a good job. "

Don't you think that's going too far to wish death upon the man?
 
Even though I feel Quesada demolished the Spider-man series with OMD/BND. I'd never wish him any level of harm. "
 I already explained why he sucks and it's been reiterated by other people who have posted here.I don't have a personal problem with Hudlin.In fact I could care less about him. 
It's silly to dislike a character for one writers writing, but I don't dislike Black Panther. I also don't discriminate when it comes to bad writing. Frank Miller has done alot for Daredevil.My absolute favorite character but I don't let him slide when he writes something stupid.I've expressed more hatred for the things that Bendis has written then Hudlin.So it's not like I make it a personal mission to bash Hudlin at every turn.I didn't abandon Sentry when Bendis started writing him poorly so I won't abandon Black Panther.I know his potential and I can see that Hudlin isn't writing him how he was meant to be.
 
As far as wishing death on Hudlin.I didn't say it.I just reposted something someone said about him in another thread but obviously from that you can tell I'm not alone in thinking he's a terrible writer.Every reader isn't like me.When you're paying for a book to read it and there is a terrible writer on it so you know it's going to suck before you even open it,most people end up dropping the book.Hudlin has written quite alot of Black Panther.It's not like he's written a few issues.
Moderator
#31 Edited by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

 You didn't even read my post.Nothing you've responded with proves that.All you're doing is going on an on about how I bash or don't like Black superheroes.It's annoying at this point.I don't have to tell the CV community i'm black.I well known enough here that people KNOW i'm black.I only say it for the benefit of the noobs.If I was wrong about what I said about Hudlin..so many people wouldn't have agreed with me.I don't just like Black characters because their black.I actually read the comics and base my assessment of them on that.  You don't have to tell me who gave Black Panther what, because writers like Priest and even Stan Lee have been able to write Black Panther in a way where he can play the underdog like most street levelers do.You know how every other hero fights a character that is physically or in some way out of their league and then comes up with a clever way to defeat them? Well Black Panther used to do that.He didn't just walk around with unbreakable armor,a sword that can cut through everything,and do things with his physical ability that we all know he can't. And for the last time I DON'T DISLIKE BLACK PANTHER AS A CHARACTER.BLACK PANTHER AND HIS WIFE STORM ARE TWO OF MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS.I don't like how Hudlin writes Storm either but I do like how other writers have written her. "


I actually quoted you on a lot more but for some reason it all didn't show up.  To write Black Panther as an underdog (imo) you would have to take away all the abilities and resources that Stan originally gave him. In my opinion what makes Black Panther an underdog is that he's Black. Surrounded by the Thor's, Sentry's and  Hercules's I feel Panther is the only Black superhero that Black people can look at and say " that's our Superman" or "that's our Thor". I think that's the way T'Challa was meant to be written.  I actually own the copies  of Fantastic Four #52 and #53 and everytime I read them I am blown away by how dominate Stan made T'Challa and Wakanda. Considering the time period when Stan created Panther (during the civil rights movement). It's like Stan knew it was time to create a character like T'Challa. Priest and Hudlin just made great stories to go along with an already great character. I got no beef with you Vance (though I am still a little salty you made me look like a fool with that whole Nighthawk incident =p), but I do get the feeling that great Black characters get the short end of the stick in your post. That's as real as I can put it.
#32 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:
" @Vance Astro said:

" Well first of all, I never said I didn't like Black Panther or that Hudlin ruined the character for me. I don't like Hudlin's writing but I never stopped reading Black Panther because he was writing it. Similar to how much I hate Brian Michael Bendis but even after all of his screw ups I still continue to read all the Avengers books. I am loyal to my favorite comics. I will see it through to see what happens to my favorite characters no matter what.If Marvel felt it fit to hire this guy he can't be THAT bad.

Then were is all this anger coming from if not because you felt he ruined the character? It more makes it sound like you have something more against him personally.
 
I'm reading all these comments that keep saying "He sucks" "He Sucks", but no one is saying why they think he sucks. I am not fond of Fraction's writing on the X-Men, but I can point out what he's don't that I don't like.
I also have something against Joe Quesada for what he did to Spider-man.

@Babs said:

I didn't say you said it was controversial, I was simply asking someone more well versed on the subject matierial why some people find his writing controversial.   Thanks for your opinion, though. Perhaps you can provide references to support your argument? "

Well I guess I would be more versed on Black Panther having read several volumes. I think in the book Hudlin over-exaggerates what T'Challa can do and then it doesn't really leave any room for the character to progress. You read Secret Invasion, correct? In Black Panther #40 he fights this skrull who has Luke Cage's strength and durability,Bullseye's aim,and Wolverine style claws. You see T'Challa can't hit him head on because he would hurt himself. As he states in the captions. Then maybe two pages later..T'Challa rips the skrulls arm off.He also rips his leg open off panel.As some people have agreed here it's this type of stuff.. the "T'Challa is better than everyone" crap that people can't stand.He took out some of the most powerful skrulls in the Wakandan Invasion by himself. I referenced Black Panther's annual earlier this is what was said about it....  "

That does sound a bit silly, but that sort of thing happens in pretty much every series. In Civil War, Wolverine was charred to the point of there only being a metallic skeleton left, but about maybe 20 minutes later he was back up and fighting. If he could survive that, how could anything kill him?

He also stabbed Namor right in the chest with both sets of claws, but it didn't seem to even effect him. It's explained that Namor tells him that Wolverine should of aimed for his lungs. I'm pretty sure Wolverine knows where lungs are.
 
I still don't see what Hudlin has done that all the other writers haven't already. All this level of anger must be coming from some kind of personal controversy.

" I didn't like it either. But, feel free to shoot the President of BET dead. Because he is the one writing BP now, and he's not doing a good job. "

Don't you think that's going too far to wish death upon the man?
 
Even though I feel Quesada demolished the Spider-man series with OMD/BND. I'd never wish him any level of harm. "

Well spoken
#33 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said:
" @Vance Astro said:
 You didn't even read my post.Nothing you've responded with proves that.All you're doing is going on an on about how I bash or don't like Black superheroes.It's annoying at this point.I don't have to tell the CV community i'm black.I well known enough here that people KNOW i'm black.I only say it for the benefit of the noobs.If I was wrong about what I said about Hudlin..so many people wouldn't have agreed with me.I don't just like Black characters because their black.I actually read the comics and base my assessment of them on that.  You don't have to tell me who gave Black Panther what, because writers like Priest and even Stan Lee have been able to write Black Panther in a way where he can play the underdog like most street levelers do.You know how every other hero fights a character that is physically or in some way out of their league and then comes up with a clever way to defeat them? Well Black Panther used to do that.He didn't just walk around with unbreakable armor,a sword that can cut through everything,and do things with his physical ability that we all know he can't. And for the last time I DON'T DISLIKE BLACK PANTHER AS A CHARACTER.BLACK PANTHER AND HIS WIFE STORM ARE TWO OF MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS.I don't like how Hudlin writes Storm either but I do like how other writers have written her. "
I actually quoted you on a lot more but for some reason it all didn't show up.  To write Black Panther as an underdog (imo) you would have to take away all the abilities and resources that Stan originally gave him. In my opinion what makes Black Panther an underdog is that he's Black. Surrounded by the Thor's, Sentry's and and Hercules's I feel Panther is the only Black superhero that Black people can look at and say " that's our Superman" or "that's our Thor". I think that's the way T'Challa was meant to be written.  I actually own the copies  of Fantastic Four #52 and #53 and everytime I read them I am blow away by how dominate Stan made T'Challa and Wakanda. Considering the time period when Stan created Panther (during the civil rights movement). It's like Stan knew it was time to create a character like T'Challa. Priest and Hudlin just made great stories to go along with an already great character. I got no beef with you Vance (though I am still a little salty you made me look like a fool with that whole Nighthawk incident =p), but I do get the feeling that great Black characters get the short end of the stick in your post. That's as real as I can put it. "
That's just it.Stan Lee already overpowered him.McDuffie and Hudlin just added to it.Stan Lee didn't have Black Panther constantly wearing Vibranium armor,he didn't give him those anti-metal claws.He didn't create the armor Black Panther used against Iron Man,He didn't marry him with one of the most powerful mutants on Earth, etc. etc. When Stan Lee was writing Black Panther..he had several struggles to deal with.Some of which involved being helped by other heroes.If you read Priest's run on Black Panther you can clearly see that Black Panther needs to give it all he has against tougher opponents...like Kraven,Killmonger,Iron Fist,Red Skull etc. In Hudlin's run it's almost like he's not that powerful but still there is really nobody that can take him out.The Secret Invasion reference is a perfect example of that.Yea,Doom came and attacked after Wakanda's defenses were down but look how much it took just to get into Wakanda? 
 
I don't have a beef with Black superheroes.Alot of them just aren't to my liking.Black Panther isn't one of them though.I can understand what is good writing for him and what is not.I liked it better when Shuri was Black Panther.
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#34 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
That's just it.Stan Lee already overpowered him.McDuffie and Hudlin just added to it.Stan Lee didn't have Black Panther constantly wearing Vibranium armor,he didn't give him those anti-metal claws.He didn't create the armor Black Panther used against Iron Man,He didn't marry him with one of the most powerful mutants on Earth, etc. etc. When Stan Lee was writing Black Panther..he had several struggles to deal with.Some of which involved being helped by other heroes.If you read Priest's run on Black Panther you can clearly see that Black Panther needs to give it all he has against tougher opponents...like Kraven,Killmonger,Iron Fist,Red Skull etc. In Hudlin's run it's almost like he's not that powerful but still there is really nobody that can take him out.The Secret Invasion reference is a perfect example of that.Yea,Doom came and attacked after Wakanda's defenses were down but look how much it took just to get into Wakanda?  I don't have a beef with Black superheroes.Alot of them just aren't to my liking.Black Panther isn't one of them though.I can understand what is good writing for him and what is not.I liked it better when Shuri was Black Panther. "

Stan didn't over power him. T'Challa still needed the Avengers help to defeat the second coming of claw. If Wakanda is sitting on a mountain of vibranium, then why is it bad writing that T'Challa gets to use vibranium armor or anti-metal claws on a regular bases? It's not like he can smash through planets or that his armor is indestructible. He really is vurnable believe it or not. Wakanda has always been written to be a super sophisticated, technological advanced nation in the Marvel Universe, so it should be of no surprise to anyone that envading Wakanda is next to impossible.
#35 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said:
Stan didn't over power him. T'Challa still needed the Avengers help to defeat the second coming of claw. If Wakanda is sitting on a mountain of vibranium, then why is it bad writing that T'Challa gets to use vibranium armor or anti-metal claws on a regular bases? It's not like he can smash through planets or that his armor is indestructible. He really is vurnable believe it or not. Wakanda has always been written to be a super sophisticated, technological advanced nation in the Marvel Universe, so it should be of no surprise to anyone that envading Wakanda is next to impossible. "
Since when wasn't Vibranium indestructible? 
Why is it easier to get to Asgard? Than Wakanda? 
I know T'Challa is vulnerable...it's up to the writers to show that.Hudlin doesn't.  
Wakanda was already written as a super sophisticated, technologically advanced nation...true.That's not what I saw when they got invaded.T'Challa saved everyone.They didn't beat the Skrulls.Black Panther did.
Moderator
#36 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
Since when wasn't Vibranium indestructible? Why is it easier to get to Asgard? Than Wakanda? I know T'Challa is vulnerable...it's up to the writers to show that.Hudlin doesn't.  Wakanda was already written as a super sophisticated, technologically advanced nation...true.That's not what I saw when they got invaded.T'Challa saved everyone.They didn't beat the Skrulls.Black Panther did. "  
 
 


Well for starters Iron Fist proved that BP's micro veave vibranium suit isn't indestructible. He practically punched right through it. I personally don't think Wakanda is harder to get to than Asgard so I'll leave that one alone. With the Skrull invasion, I think the Skrull would have won had their commander swallowed his pride an allowed a distress call to be sent for more help. Panther didn't beat the Skrull by himself. It was the defenses of Wakanda. Wakandan tech is what cancelled out the Skrull weapons and vice versa. After that it turned into a fist fight. Wakanda is about 1-2 million strong, a warrior nation with home turf advantage. The Skrulls didn't have a chance in my opinion. A lot of Wakandans died during that invasion, but their victory was inevitable. Its not like it was an entire Skrull army they were facing ethier, it was just a small fleet of them. Lastly, if any where on Earth could have repelled an Skrull invasion. Wakanda should have made that list with flying colors. I think when people started reading Hudlin's run on BP, they had too many expectations. I actually started reading BP for the first time during Hudlin's run and then worked my way backwards. I thought his stories were well written and very entertaining.  
#37 Edited by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said:

" @Vance Astro said:

Since when wasn't Vibranium indestructible? Why is it easier to get to Asgard? Than Wakanda? I know T'Challa is vulnerable...it's up to the writers to show that.Hudlin doesn't.  Wakanda was already written as a super sophisticated, technologically advanced nation...true.That's not what I saw when they got invaded.T'Challa saved everyone.They didn't beat the Skrulls.Black Panther did. "  
 
 
Well for starters Iron Fist proved that BP's micro veave vibranium suit isn't indestructible. He practically punched right through it. I personally don't think Wakanda is harder to get to than Asgard so I'll leave that one alone. With the Skrull invasion, I think the Skrull would have won had their commander swallowed his pride an allowed a distress call to be sent for more help. Panther didn't beat the Skrull by himself. It was the defenses of Wakanda. Wakandan tech is what cancelled out the Skrull weapons and vice versa. After that it turned into a fist fight. Wakanda is about 1-2 million strong, a warrior nation with home turf advantage. The Skrulls didn't have a chance in my opinion. A lot of Wakandans died during that invasion, but their victory was inevitable. Its not like it was an entire Skrull army they were facing ethier, it was just a small fleet of them. Lastly, if any where on Earth could have repelled an Skrull invasion. Wakanda should have made that list with flying colors. I think when people started reading Hudlin's run on BP, they had too many expectations. I actually started reading BP for the first time during Hudlin's run and then worked my way backwards. I thought his stories were well written and very entertaining.   "
He wasn't wearing the suit when he fought Iron Fist.You've been sitting in on too many debates.What you're saying was never even explained in the book and you can be sure Priest wouldn't have let Iron Fist "rip" Vibranium without some explanation.How a Vibranium suit can be damaged was never explained at all.There is no proof he was actually wearing the Vibranium suit either. 
How didn't Black Panther beat the skrulls by himself? Read his SI arc again.The issue that I cited earlier alone is nothing short of ridiculous.He ripped the arm off of a skrull with Luke Cage's durability.People say that he may have used his anti-metal claws but you can clearly see him pulling the arm off.The other hand is being used to fight the Skrulls hand off of his neck.
When I read Hudlin's run on Black Panther I expected it to be reasonable.
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#38 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said:
" I have almost every issue that Priest wrote on BP and the question is when wasn't Panther wearing his vibranium mesh suit? I believe he had it on during that IF fight which proves that with the right amount of force vibranium could be destroyed. There is also a issue where an island that had a vibranium base was destroyed, but I have to look that up to give more accurate details. As far as T'Challa ripping that Skrull's arm off, no one ever said that Skrull had "Luke Cage durability" where are you getting that from? "
Are you kidding me with this? 
 
Read it...T'Challa clearly says.."His Skin is as Tough as Luke Cage"  He also hurt himself when he punched the Skrull.Thus the "Ouch" in the first panel.

 
 
As far as the Vibranium suit.Black Panther apparently wears it when he feels he's going to be in danger.Several times his costume has been ripped in Priest's run.For instance, his fight with the Red Skrull.His costume was ripped from punches.You really think a punch can rip Vibranum? Why would he even wear the suit if it was that easy? Notice every time we know ass fact that he's wearing it..his costume gets no blemishes.
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#39 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
"@Mr Creesy said:

" @Vance Astro said:

Since when wasn't Vibranium indestructible? Why is it easier to get to Asgard? Than Wakanda? I know T'Challa is vulnerable...it's up to the writers to show that.Hudlin doesn't.  Wakanda was already written as a super sophisticated, technologically advanced nation...true.That's not what I saw when they got invaded.T'Challa saved everyone.They didn't beat the Skrulls.Black Panther did. "  
 
 
He wasn't wearing the suit when he fought Iron Fist.You've been sitting in on too many debates.What you're saying was never even explained in the book and you can be sure Priest wouldn't have let Iron Fist "rip" Vibranium without some explanation.How a Vibranium suit can be damaged was never explained at all.There is no proof he was actually wearing the Vibranium suit either. How didn't Black Panther beat the skrulls by himself? Read his SI arc again.The issue that I cited earlier alone is nothing short of ridiculous.He ripped the arm off of a skrull with Luke Cage's durability.People say that he may have used his anti-metal claws but you can clearly see him pulling the arm off.The other hand is being used to fight the Skrulls hand off of his neck.When I read Hudlin's run on Black Panther I expected it to be reasonable. "

Never mind, I just read where it said the skrull had skin as tough as luke cage, but it also said that the skrull couldn't use more than one ability at once.  T'Challa even said he waited until his left arm was invurnable. Get your facts straight and further more Hudlin didn't even write the skrull invasion. Arron did.
#40 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said: 
Never mind, I just read where it said the skrull had skin as tough as luke cage, but it also said that the skrull couldn't use more than one ability at once.  T'Challa even said he waited until his left arm was invurnable. Get your facts straight and further more Hudlin didn't even write the skrull invasion. Arron did. "
You're right about the Aaron part but not about the skrull.Nowhere in the comic does it say that.He says" I have to fight him long enough to figure out his weakness then rips his arm off.On the same page he claims the skrull is using the fighting styles of 4 different characters at once so that kills the whole 1 ability thing.Not to mention on the page I posted he was using Wolverine's claws and the Iron Fist at the same time.Just on different hands.
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#41 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Mr Creesy said:
" I have almost every issue that Priest wrote on BP and the question is when wasn't Panther wearing his vibranium mesh suit? I believe he had it on during that IF fight which proves that with the right amount of force vibranium could be destroyed. There is also a issue where an island that had a vibranium base was destroyed, but I have to look that up to give more accurate details. As far as T'Challa ripping that Skrull's arm off, no one ever said that Skrull had "Luke Cage durability" where are you getting that from? "
Are you kidding me with this? 
 
Read it...T'Challa clearly says.."His Skin is as Tough as Luke Cage"  He also hurt himself when he punched the Skrull.Thus the "Ouch" in the first panel.

 
  As far as the Vibranium suit.Black Panther apparently wears it when he feels he's going to be in danger.Several times his costume has been ripped in Priest's run.For instance, his fight with the Red Skrull.His costume was ripped from punches.You really think a punch can rip Vibranum? Why would he even wear the suit if it was that easy? Notice every time we know ass fact that he's wearing it..his costume gets no blemishes. "

Why not show the scan where panther rips his arm off? Because it clearly states that this super skrull can only use one super power at a time and that panther clearly states that the arm is able to be broken once he switches his powers, and just in case you didn't hear me the first time. Hudlin didn't write BP secret invasion, Arron did.
#42 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
You're right about the Aaron part but not about the skrull.Nowhere in the comic does it say that.He says" I have to fight him long enough to figure out his weakness then rips his arm off.On the same page he claims the skrull is using the fighting styles of 4 different characters at once so that kills the whole 1 ability thing.Not to mention on the page I posted he was using Wolverine's claws and the Iron Fist at the same time.Just on different hands. "

Post the scan if you have it. The scan will speak for its self.
#43 Posted by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said:
Why not show the scan where panther rips his arm off? Because it clearly states that this super skrull can only use one super power at a time and that panther clearly states that the arm is able to be broken once he switches his powers, 
Stop lying...T'Challa didn't clearly state that at all, 





    
Moderator
#44 Posted by Mr Creesy (843 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @Mr Creesy said:
Why not show the scan where panther rips his arm off? Because it clearly states that this super skrull can only use one super power at a time and that panther clearly states that the arm is able to be broken once he switches his powers, 
Stop lying...T'Challa didn't clearly state that at all, 

 


 


    
 
"

Your obviously trying to make your self look good. The only scan you didn't post is the one i'm talking about. I have the comic in my lap and it cleary states what I'm talking about. Post it and prove me wrong which we both know that you can't. I'll eventually post it myself and show the world the fool that is vance astro.
#45 Edited by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr Creesy said:

Your obviously trying to make your self look good. The only scan you didn't post is the one i'm talking about. I have the comic in my lap and it cleary states what I'm talking about. Post it and prove me wrong which we both know that you can't. I'll eventually post it myself and show the world the fool that is vance astro. "

Actually I have to apologize to you.I posted those scans out of a folder I have full of Black Panther scans and not directly from the comic and therefore I thought this was the entire fight and didn't see the page you were referring to.However you said "Post the page where he rips his arm off" which is why I called you a liar and assumed there was no other page because you didn't describe the page you were looking at but the page I already posted.Even still,this weakness was never expressed for any other Super-Skrull.With all of the technology created against them still nothing.But T'Challa I guess is the only one (with no prep might I add) who knows their weakness? 
 
Hudlin may have not written Secret Invasion: Black Panther but he's still written bad arcs.There was the Civil War stuff,the arc with the magical frogs.His whole marriage arc.I've read the first issue of Flags of Our Fathers.It's not bad but it's not the usual stuff that Hudlin writes.I'm almost positive the story line in this comic has been visited before and most of the focus is on Captain America in the first issue.The reason that Vol.4 went the direction it did is because there is nothing left to do with T'Challa other than take his mantle away from him and have villains attack Wakanda.What are they going to do when Doomwar is over?
Moderator
#46 Posted by FoxxFireArt (3536 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" As far as wishing death on Hudlin.I didn't say it.I just reposted something someone said about him in another thread but obviously from that you can tell I'm not alone in thinking he's a terrible writer.Every reader isn't like me. "

 Right here you lose any bit of sympathy for your argument, as far as I'm concerned. It's never alright to advocate the cold blooded murder of someone just because you disagree with them. Whether you are just "re-posting" what is said by others. You might as well be saying, "Will anyone rid me of this bothersome writer?"
 
Taste is subjective. There must be some who like his work. Otherwise I don't think Marvel would continue to hire him.
 
@Mr Creesy said:
" Well spoken "

Thank you. I support advocating for stories, but you cross a very serious line when you start calling for someone's death or any form of violence.
#47 Edited by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@FoxxFireArt said:

" @Vance Astro said:

" As far as wishing death on Hudlin.I didn't say it.I just reposted something someone said about him in another thread but obviously from that you can tell I'm not alone in thinking he's a terrible writer.Every reader isn't like me. "

 Right here you lose any bit of sympathy for your argument, as far as I'm concerned. It's never alright to advocate the cold blooded murder of someone just because you disagree with them. Whether you are just "re-posting" what is said by others. You might as well be saying, "Will anyone rid me of this bothersome writer?"
 
Taste is subjective. There must be some who like his work. Otherwise I don't think Marvel would continue to hire him.
 
@Mr Creesy said:
" Well spoken "
Thank you. I support advocating for stories, but you cross a very serious line when you start calling for someone's death or any form of violence. "
 
I was just showing how much other people dislike Hudlin's writing.Obviously he's done something wrong if people feel that strongly about it.I personally don't wish death on Hudlin nor do I know if the person who posted that was even serious.Why you're dwelling on just that is beyond me. 
 
Taste is subjective.But that's not what's going on here.Marvel continues to hire alot of people despite the amount of hate they get on these forums and other comic related forums alike.Rob Leifeld and Greg Land have whole websites dedicated to just that.You know how many people can't stand Brian Michael Bendis at this point.He's was writing several major books and still is.You can drop one of them but if you drop all of them.You won't know what's going on in the Marvel U as a whole.
People still buy the books even though they may not like the writer.If we don't have the books..how else would we know what's going on to even complain about it? Quesada isn't going to fire someone when they are seeing sales.Look at the big outrage over One More Day.Nobody got fired behind that.
Moderator
#48 Posted by Illuminarch (243 posts) - - Show Bio
@Babs said:
 Can you provide examples? Story arcs? Issues? Same goes to you Vance. Thanks! "
 
I believe I already did. I don't know the issue # and I can't retrieve it because I read it on Marvel's digital comics and no longer have a subscription. It's the one where Panther runs wild on Doom...in Latveria...while on his honeymoon tour with Storm. 
 
@IamSilkmane said:
I think some are missing the proper perspective:  1) Black Panther is the King of Wakanda - if you accept that premise, then the next part should be easier to accept 2) Wakanda is a place where Afican technology and culture was allowed to continue unchecked by detrimental influences - if you accept that premise, then the next part should be easier to accept 3) Certain storyarcs and dialogues based on the aformentioned pionts are legitimate parts of the BP storyline 

Oh, I understand what the perspective is, I just consider it trash. What is this mythical African technology and culture that was supposedly preserved by Wakanda that has made it into the premier technological civilization on earth? Hudlin made that same assertion, and it is nonsense. Wakanda was never Doc Smith's Atlantis. It was just a ridiculously tiny nation that no outsider really cared about until they found out about the Vibranium mound, and as a happy coincidence, T'Challa's father was at the same time taking efforts to obscure it and send its best and brightest to the west for education so as to provide some hope of independent survival. I don't know who started the myth of Wakanda preserving some hyper-sophisticated African tradition, maybe it was Hudlin or maybe it wasn't, but it was not the original presentation. I find that idea to be preposterous and the first hints of an Afrocentrist agenda that is only further confirmed by other aspects of Hudlin's writing.
 
I can't believe that there are actually people arguing with those of us who don't like Hudlin, imagining that we "just don't get it", or worse: 

@FoxxFireArt said:
 
I still don't see what Hudlin has done that all the other writers haven't already. All this level of anger must be coming from some kind of personal controversy.

 Why don't you just yell: "It's because Hudlin's black, isn't it?!?" and get it out of your system.
 
We're allowed to not like a writer, and to criticize him for any reason, with or without criticizing others who may or may not be pumping out the same trash, and we don't have to have your approval.
#49 Posted by hukid07 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

So it seems to me that people are saying that b/c he's black and he's from an African nation, that there is no way in God's green earth that a character such as the Black Panther could exist in a fictional comic book, is that right??     
 
for some reason i just assumed most fans of comics were rather progressive but i guess not.
#50 Edited by Vance Astro (90726 posts) - - Show Bio
@hukid07 said:

" So it seems to me that people are saying that b/c he's black and he's from an African nation, that there is no way in God's green earth that a character such as the Black Panther could exist in a fictional comic book, is that right??      for some reason i just assumed most fans of comics were rather progressive but i guess not. "

That's not what anyone is saying.Writers like Hudlin need to spend more time on the character than trying to recreate some taboo black history moment.All the readers want to see is something pivotal.The only thing Hudlin left us with last volume is Black Panther marrying Storm and even that didn't deserve as many issues as it did.It's like he was stretching it because he didn't have anything else to write about.The arcs he wrote afterwards leading up into Secret Invasion prove that as they were absolutely meaningless.I have no problem with Black Panther being an African from Africa..but despite all the reasons I an others have given..that's what people seem to keep implying when I've it's never been expressed in anyway.
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