How strong is the Black Panther now

#1 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

I know we haven't seen some feats of him, or stories with him since the Hickman-prompted power boost, but I want to know from you. How powerful should the Black Panther be now? How major was his upgrade? What do you expect to see from him now? (I just hope Marvel expands on his upgrade. Don't want to see another wasted opportunity.)

Let's talk!!

#2 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

i expect great & interesting storylines & more uses of his panther powers & the new upgrade from bast.

#3 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

I know we haven't seen some feats of him, or stories with him since the Hickman-prompted power boost, but I want to know from you. How powerful should the Black Panther be now? How major was his upgrade? What do you expect to see from him now? (I just hope Marvel expands on his upgrade. Don't want to see another wasted opportunity.)

Let's talk!!

On par with Black Bolt, Doom (his powered suit) and Namor, physically. This way he clearly the best in hand to hand combat...he would actually allowed to use it, without all the b.s nonsensical noise about P.I.S and that other crap. His prowess being this way, plus his skill and the knowledge of all panthers would make him a close combat/hand to hand nightmare. He's just behind Doom in intellect and Doom is Doom, Black Bolt is a weapon of mass destruction, who can amp his prowess and fly, Namor is practically invincible in water and a flying brick.

So this powered up T'challa would be like giving Batman Wonder Woman's physical prowess and then maybe we can get some real one on one fights against without all the fuss about him being 'Street' level.

#4 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

So this powered up T'challa would be like giving Batman Wonder Woman's physical prowess and then maybe we can get some real one on one fights against without all the fuss about him being 'Street' level.

Let's see some feats before we start making statements like this.
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#5 Posted by _slim_ (13242 posts) - - Show Bio

I still fell he didn't need an upgrade... but whatever Marvel.

#6 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@_slim_: I kind of agree. I guess this is just Marvel guessing that if he gets an upgrade, he'll be more interesting to the readers.

#7 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Twentyfive said:

 he'll be more interesting to the readers.

This.
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#8 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think he has been upgraded much if at all honestly based on the fight with storm in avx... I don't really want an upgrade to be honest.

#9 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

So this powered up T'challa would be like giving Batman Wonder Woman's physical prowess and then maybe we can get some real one on one fights against without all the fuss about him being 'Street' level.

Let's see some feats before we start making statements like this.

I pretty sure we will get them and I can make whatever statements I like. So far I have been right every time...no more 'street'.

#10 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

I pretty sure we will get them and I can make whatever statements I like. So far I have been right every time...no more 'street'.

I'm doubting the whole "Batman with Wonder Woman's physical prowess" line because Diana outclasses alot of Marvel's strongest heroes (Iron Man,Namor,The Thing,Sentry,Hercules etc.). You can make whatever statements you like but there's no accuracy to it. Also you weren't right about whether he was street leveler or not to begin with, nobody every argued with you that writing would change that.
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#11 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

I pretty sure we will get them and I can make whatever statements I like. So far I have been right every time...no more 'street'.

I'm doubting the whole "Batman with Wonder Woman's physical prowess" line because Diana outclasses alot of Marvel's strongest heroes (Iron Man,Namor,The Thing,Sentry,Hercules etc.). You can make whatever statements you like but there's no accuracy to it. Also you weren't right about whether he was street leveler or not to begin with, nobody every argued with you that writing would change that.

But who cares about 'out-classing"? you do, I don't. I'm not talking in terms of battle boards...which Marvel quite frankly does not care for at all. No one cares about DC and who is more powerful then whom. It was just an example in terms how how he would function. With Diana being super human mystical being and Batman being Batman. He is going to be on par with Namor or Black Bolt. So lets just say Batman with super human prowess around Black Bolt and Namor (out of water). Brevoort has already touch on him being suped up and that it WILL be explored because it's tied to the up coming story line that Hickman is writing.

NEW Avengers is no where near being street, low level or any of that crap. Marvel is acutely aware of this stuff, and mindset...and we are not going to see it with T'challa for a long time.

#12 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: FF 607/608 were and avx were independent of each other. Hickman was setting up for Marvel NOW!. But if indeed they did just do away with his upgrade, then darn.

#13 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

But who cares about 'out-classing"? you do, I don't. I'm not talking in terms of battle boards...which Marvel quite frankly does not care for at all. No one cares about DC and who is more powerful then whom. It was just an example in terms how how he would function. With Diana being super human mystical being and Batman being Batman. He is going to be on par with Namor or Black Bolt. So lets just say Batman with super human prowess around Black Bolt and Namor (out of water). Brevoort has already touch on him being suped up and that it WILL be explored because it's tied to the up coming story line that Hickman is writing.

I don't pretend to know what you care about, I saw a statement that I felt was pushing it so I responded to it. You don't have to be speaking in terms of battle boards but if you say he's going to be on par with Namor the only way you can prove that is through feats and what he does. Did Brevoort give that description of what T'Challa was going to be? He said he would be on par with Namor or Blackbolt? Saying he'd be like Batman with Wonder Woman's physical prowess sounded like you were saying he would be on par with Wonder Woman thus why I objected because it would be a ridiculous move considering that many of Marvel's strongest heroes aren't on her level. 
 
@Umbraa said:

NEW Avengers is no where near being street, low level or any of that crap. Marvel is acutely aware of this stuff, and mindset...and we are not going to see it with T'challa for a long time.

I have no clue what this part of your post is aimed at or what it means.
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#14 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@jashro44: FF 607/608 were and avx were independent of each other. Hickman was setting up for Marvel NOW!. But if indeed they did just do away with his upgrade, then darn.

Do you have a source which says it is independent of each other? Because in FF 608 they did foreshadow namors attack...

@Umbraa: The new avengers have plenty of street level characters. Spider-man, wolverine, iron fist, and luke cage are all street level.

#15 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Well, regarding his upgrade, at least.

#16 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@jashro44: Well, regarding his upgrade, at least.

I suppose thats possible but I don't think so.

#17 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I want Wakanda to rise again. They should do a story, it doesn't even have to be an event, but a story in which the Black Panther restores his kingdom after two attacks, and an upsetting divorce. He should even reclaim his Vibranium from Doom.

#18 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@jashro44: I want Wakanda to rise again. They should do a story, it doesn't even have to be an event, but a story in which the Black Panther restores his kingdom after two attacks, and an upsetting divorce. He should even reclaim his Vibranium from Doom.

I'm sure we will get that story. The main problem as to why black panther became the king of the dead is still unrevealed. The panther god said that none of what namor did would compare to what followed.

#19 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Twentyfive said:

@jashro44: FF 607/608 were and avx were independent of each other. Hickman was setting up for Marvel NOW!. But if indeed they did just do away with his upgrade, then darn.

Do you have a source which says it is independent of each other? Because in FF 608 they did foreshadow namors attack...

@Umbraa: The new avengers have plenty of street level characters. Spider-man, wolverine, iron fist, and luke cage are all street level.

The Marvel NOW! NEW Avengers team (that's been shown) has no "street" level characters on the team...it's not a "Street" book at all.

#20 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@jashro44: I want Wakanda to rise again. They should do a story, it doesn't even have to be an event, but a story in which the Black Panther restores his kingdom after two attacks, and an upsetting divorce. He should even reclaim his Vibranium from Doom.

I don't think Doom has the Vibranium, T'challa rendered all of it inert, so there is still a mount ant of inert Vibranium.

#21 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa: Have they revealed the whole roster yet? Maybe there will be more street level characters? And really teams don't necessarily determine power levels. Captain america has always been an avenger and he is still street level. Same thing with batman being a member of the justice league and he is street level as well.

#22 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Umbraa: Have they revealed the whole roster yet? Maybe there will be more street level characters? And really teams don't necessarily determine power levels. Captain america has always been an avenger and he is still street level. Same thing with batman being a member of the justice league and he is street level as well.

Here the thing... the forum's "Street" level terminology does not really exist for most writers...Cap is not really a 'street' level character. You can't pigeon hole him into that faux-class system that does not exist for writers mostly. Steve can and has operated in all sorts of different Milieu's...some of which were street level stories, but he has also done EVERYTHING ELSE and that what "Street Level" is a *Milieu*...he's not a street character, because lot of his stores are not street level.

For example, Rick Reminders new Captain America is not a street level book. It's sci-fi, pulp-fantasy to the fullest.

My question to you is why are you asking if the whole roster was reveled when I *clearly* said the team that has been shown so far and the rest will be likely shown at the NYCC? That could be the entire team, or not...but it's not a 'Street level" book according the the writer of the book...who has been talking about the high concept for a while..while also saying that some of his Fantastic Four stories (like 607-608) are directly connected to his future books...again the whole usage of street level by message board posters is wrong...Street Level is at the Street Level...a environment, a milieu--not really a class level or power-tier system...for example Luke Cage. There is NOTHING most crooks could do to harm a guy like Luke who according to Tom Brevoort can least maximum effort lift 75 tons.

So my philosophical alignment with a lot of writers/editorial who frankly don't share the same views as the message board-battle board crowds terminology.

I don't see Batman as street. JLA Batman is not street level, however Batman solo book often operates in the street level milieu. But that's D.C and maybe they have a class system. Its a FACT THAT Marvel does not really align with this though process.

As for T'challa up-grade

Here, we see T'Challa distract Namor. Now, I know the two couldn't go toe-to-toe physically, but the enchantment the goddess Bast worked on T'challa in a recent issue of "Fantastic Four" has me curious. Just how powerful is he, now?
Exactly what that means is more of a question for another day. Clearly, that story coming out when it did, and the fact that Jonathan Hickman hinted at the events of AVX in that story, has a relevance and bearing here. In terms, though, of exactly what T'Challa is capable of now from a power and ability standpoint is something that will be explored in much greater depth in the months ahead.
For right here and right now, much like any of the other Avenger, I think the Black Panther, even a souped-up version, is not going to be the equal of a Phoenix-amped Namor.

He does have a upgrade, he has been 'souped-up'. Partly because of some of the mindset that these guys are of aware of and the fact that both Hickman and Brevoort seem to agree based on things they have seen with the character. Whatever it is, it's tied to the up coming story line...but I know I have personally wrote them about T'challa being super-human and listed the reason why with numerous examples. I know for a fact that writers and editors like Liss and Rosemann and Brevoort have seen some of the issues. Agree or not, to me doing it was the correct thing for many different reasons.

#23 Posted by jashro44 (22796 posts) - - Show Bio

@Umbraa:

Here the thing... the forum's "Street" level terminology does not really exist for most writers...Cap is not really a 'street' level character. You can't pigeon hole him into that faux-class system that does not exist for writers mostly. Steve can and has operated in all sorts of different Milieu's...some of which were street level stories, but he has also done EVERYTHING ELSE and that what "Street Level" is a *Milieu*...he's not a street character, because lot of his stores are not street level.

Street level isn't talking about environment generally when it is used. You can fight battles in space and still be a street level character. When fans use the term street level they are typically talking about a tier which makes it easier to group various characters together. Yes captain america can operate in different settings sure but he can't fight the likes of loki, hulk, thor, iron man, namor without prep or pis. Street level is not defined by story its defined by your feats you show on a consistent basis. You can be on a team with a God and still be street level (at least when we are using the term when talking about power levels).

For example, Rick Reminders new Captain America is not a street level book. It's sci-fi, pulp-fantasy to the fullest.

He may not be fighting random thugs on the street but he is still defined as a street leveler by the fans. Unless he gets a major upgrade of some sort but even then he would still need feats to place him beyond street level.

My question to you is why are you asking if the whole roster was reveled when I *clearly* said the team that has been shown so far and the rest will be likely shown at the NYCC?

I apologize but I missed that part. My fault.

That could be the entire team, or not...but it's not a 'Street level" book according the the writer of the book..

We will see what sorts of feats the characters perform. But I agree in terms of actual theme they will be handling bigger threats then characters like daredevil, punisher, etc.

who has been talking about the high concept for a while..while also saying that some of his Fantastic Four stories (like 607-608) are directly connected to his future books...again the whole usage of street level by message board posters is wrong...Street Level is at the Street Level...a environment, a milieu--not really a class level or power-tier system...for example Luke Cage. There is NOTHING most crooks could do to harm a guy like Luke who according to Tom Brevoort can least maximum effort lift 75 tons.

When ever I here the words Street level usually people are referring to power levels. And to be honest I would take Brevoorts words with a grain of salt from what I have seen of some screen shots...The marvel handbooks have luke cage ranked in class 25 iirc.

So my philosophical alignment with a lot of writers/editorial who frankly don't share the same views as the message board-battle board crowds terminology.

I don't see Batman as street. JLA Batman is not street level, however Batman solo book often operates in the street level milieu. But that's D.C and maybe they have a class system. Its a FACT THAT Marvel does not really align with this though process.

Then why would you bring up black panther not being street level in a thread where we are talking about power levels? I agree black panther hasn't really ever been street themed until recently when he went to hells kitchen but he is still street level in the sense he cannot engage characters like namor in a slug fest. He needs prep to beat a character like namor.

I understand marvel and dc are different but street level is a definition created by fans. It carries over to all companies.

He does have a upgrade, he has been 'souped-up'. Partly because of some of the mindset that these guys are of aware of and the fact that both Hickman and Brevoort seem to agree based on things they have seen with the character. Whatever it is, it's tied to the up coming story line...but I know I have personally wrote them about T'challa being super-human and listed the reason why with numerous examples. I know for a fact that writers and editors like Liss and Rosemann and Brevoort have seen some of the issues. Agree or not, to me doing it was the correct thing for many different reasons.

I know he has a upgrade but it doesn't seem that significant. The quote doesn't really mention how powerful he is it just says he is less powerful then a phoenix amped namor and that he has been souped up. I don't see them raising him to a class 80 or something along those lines. Personally I don't care what power level black panther is. I agree he isn't a street themed character but he is still a street level character by battle forums definition. Which is the purpose of the thread.

#24 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Street level isn't talking about environment generally when it is used. You can fight battles in space and still be a street level character. When fans use the term street level they are typically talking about a tier which makes it easier to group various characters together. Yes captain america can operate in different settings sure but he can't fight the likes of loki, hulk, thor, iron man, namor without prep or pis. Street level is not defined by story its defined by your feats you show on a consistent basis. You can be on a team with a God and still be street level (at least when we are using the term when talking about power levels).

In layman terms sure, but most writers really don't give a crap about these things. Not one really cares about battle boards logic or terminology at all. I know what you mean, I'm just staying that most creators really don't care about it that much.

He may not be fighting random thugs on the street but he is still defined as a street leveler by the fans. Unless he gets a major upgrade of some sort but even then he would still need feats to place him beyond street level.

By the fans? I'm a fan and I don't define him that way. Again, this sort of logic really doesn't hold, it's message board chatter.

Then why would you bring up black panther not being street level in a thread where we are talking about power levels? I agree black panther hasn't really ever been street themed until recently when he went to hells kitchen but he is still street level in the sense he cannot engage characters like namor in a slug fest. He needs prep to beat a character like namor.

I have NEVER considered him "street level", again I disagree with the terminology that IS NOT used by Marvel and T'challa has engaged Namor without prep...so there is that. In a slug fest, he engaged Namor in AvX and was not phased at all. Again, I think the terminology is flawed. I came to this view from reading the opinons of writers, who again mostly don't care.

I understand marvel and dc are different but street level is a definition created by fans. It carries over to all companies.

Marvel doesn't really follow that stuff. Every writer or editor that I have seen doesn't really care. Especially Tom Brevoort and some others. Kurt Busiek gave a perfect defense and exposed the flawed logic of the battle board crew. At it core it's just extremely flawed, but I know that there are rules...it's just that these rules don't matter much to them.

I know he has a upgrade but it doesn't seem that significant. The quote doesn't really mention how powerful he is it just says he is less powerful then a phoenix amped namor and that he has been souped up. I don't see them raising him to a class 80 or something along those lines. Personally I don't care what power level black panther is. I agree he isn't a street themed character but he is still a street level character by battle forums definition. Which is the purpose of the thread.

Ah, but it is significant, it doesn't say that because his upgrade is tied to the upcoming threat, premise and story line written by Hickman and they want to reveal it. If it was not significant then there would be no point to make a big deal of it! Instead they *are* making it part of the reveal per Hickman. Like I said he will be on par with Black Bolt and Namor and battle forums definitions really don't matter much to what they do with characters. In this case what was said in 608 is what he has all the Panther's knowledge and strength. It only doesn't seem...because they didn't want reveal it now...he's indeed souped up, I see them making him on par with his peers Doom, Namor and Black Bolt!

Respect your opinion, but we will have to agree to disagree.

#25 Posted by PassionFlower (960 posts) - - Show Bio

In that Marvel/Hickman hasn'teven demonstrated what his new capabilities are there can be only hunches as how powerful he is. I am interested in finding out.

#26 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

for example Luke Cage. There is NOTHING most crooks could do to harm a guy like Luke who according to Tom Brevoort can least maximum effort lift 75 tons.

LMFAO.
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#27 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

for example Luke Cage. There is NOTHING most crooks could do to harm a guy like Luke who according to Tom Brevoort can least maximum effort lift 75 tons.

LMFAO.

I don't know that you are LMAO-ing about. You might disagree, but there only one person who actually matters to the actual stories. It's not you or I... Sorry...

#28 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

I don't know that you are LMAO-ing about. You might disagree, but there only one person who actually matters to the actual stories. It's not you or I... Sorry...

I'm laughing at a statement that is blatantly false. 
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#29 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

I don't know that you are LMAO-ing about. You might disagree, but there only one person who actually matters to the actual stories. It's not you or I... Sorry...

I'm laughing at a statement that is blatantly false.

False? I'm sorry but unless you are writing the story or are a editor of that story, your opinion is just that...your opinion. It's blatantly the truth.

#30 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

False? I'm sorry but unless you are writing the story or are a editor of that story, your opinion is just that...your opinion. It's blatantly the truth.

It's not my opinion. Either you made up what Brevoort said or he lied to you because Cage is nowhere near class 75. Unless he got an upgrade Bendis never showed or told anyone about.
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#31 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

He got a upgrade before Bendis wrote him guy. No one lied...fictional characters are fictional and they are whatever writers choose them to be...for example, Brevoort recently stated that SS isn't 100 class as his base strength level, he has to amp himself to that level. You might not like it, but that's the way it is. Same with Cage...his in the 50-75 class.

Look at Cage fighting Namor, though Namor is stronger and slapped the mess out of him, he still knocked him around in water...Brevoort said that he was around Thing level, not on par but around his level...I'm sorry.

Look at Quick Silver running in AvX running across the world in 3 seconds. Under your logic, he could not do it...but he can. He's fictional.

#32 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

He got a upgrade before Bendis wrote him guy. No one lied...fictional characters are fictional and they are whatever writers choose them to be...for example, Brevoort recently stated that SS isn't 100 class as his base strength level, he has to amp himself to that level. You might not like it, but that's the way it is. Same with Cage...his in the 50-75 class.

Look at Cage fighting Namor, though Namor is stronger and slapped the mess out of him, he still knocked him around in water...Brevoort said that he was around Thing level, not on par but around his level...I'm sorry.

Look at Quick Silver running in AvX running across the world in 3 seconds. Under your logic, he could not do it...but he can. He's fictional.

Bendis has been writing Cage since before Civil War. His Civil War file says that he's class 25. Most published works from Marvel that give his strength class say that he's class 25. So why do all these sources (that are written by Marvel writers) say that he's class 25 but you want me to take the word of someone who ISN'T writing the character? How much sense does that make?  This has nothing to do with what I "like". It has everything to do with fact and fiction. Cage fighting Namor is simply accepted as bad writing by most people like more than half of what is written in  AvX. Also if Brevoort said that Cage was around Thing's level, that would make him class 100, anyway you slice either he's lying or you're saying he said something he didn't. Ms.Marvel is class 75 and Cage doesn't even have better strength showings than Spider-Man let alone anything comparable to what she's done.
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#33 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

Listen we disagree. So does the editors at Marvel. Period. Ms. Marvel is whatever class they want her to be. Same with Cage or anyone else. It's fiction and all made up.

#34 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

Listen we disagree. So does the editors at Marvel. Period. Ms. Marvel is whatever class they want her to be. Same with Cage or anyone else. It's fiction and all made up.

We're disagreeing for nothing because i'm stating a fact and you aren't. Ms.Marvel isn't whatever class they want her to be..that's why they made up classes in the first place, so that you have a general understanding of what characters can do. Why would you take Brevoort's word when Marvel has several published sources that say something completely different and those things are consistent with how Cage is depicted in comics and also consistent with each other in the sense that they all say the same thing? 
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#35 Edited by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

Listen we disagree. So does the editors at Marvel. Period. Ms. Marvel is whatever class they want her to be. Same with Cage or anyone else. It's fiction and all made up.

We're disagreeing for nothing because i'm stating a fact and you aren't. Ms.Marvel isn't whatever class they want her to be..that's why they made up classes in the first place, so that you have a general understanding of what characters can do. Why would you take Brevoort's word when Marvel has several published sources that say something completely different and those things are consistent with how Cage is depicted in comics and also consistent with each other in the sense that they all say the same thing?

Listen, this MY opinion. I don't agree with you. I'm not taking anyone word, It's my opinion and I just think that your logic is faulty...what I believe just happeneds to be similar to how creators, who actual have a say in the stories write the characters. Like it or not Brevoort is Senior Vice President of Publishing of Marvel Comics. He runs the day to day stuff and all editors have to report to him. He is also viewed as the lore guy, the cannon guy...but when he says that writers and not held hostage to source books or stuff that YOU want, well I agree.

Cage has been depicted in the 50-75 range before Bendis started writing him. So it wasn't bad writing, it just not what you want. Carol is whatever they want her to be...75 or higher. Same with the Thing, once he was 75, now he is higher. Same with Namor, once he was 75, now he's higher. See how that works...they are fictional, meaning if they want to move a fictional character anywhere they can. Look at Quick Silver in AvX running 3 seconds in vast distance, why because they want to...it's all made up...

This is a fact, the Source books don't dictate ANYTHING. They were made to support a card game that is no longer even made. Now they make them for fans that like that stuff, but they don't follow it, nor are they held hostage to it.

If they want to make Carol 100 class now...there is nothing you can do about it. You can disagree and not like it all you want...but that's your opinion. Again, they are not held hostage to these things you are talking about.

#36 Edited by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

Listen, this MY opinion. I don't agree with you. 

How can you have an opinion about something that can be proven?  
 
@Umbraa said:

Listen, this MY opinion. I don't agree with you. I'm not taking anyone word, It's my opinion and I just think that your logic is faulty...what I believe just happeneds to be similar to how creators, who actual have a say in the stories write the characters. Like it or not Brevoort is Senior Vice President of Publishing of Marvel Comics. He runs the day to day stuff and all editors have to report to him. He is also viewed as the lore guy, the cannon guy...but when he says that writers and not held hostage to source books or stuff that YOU want, well I agree.

How is my logic faulty when I'm using what is written as source material? 
 
@Umbraa said:

Cage has been depicted in the 50-75 range before Bendis started writing him.

You said this already and it's still false. He has never been depicted as class 50-75 with anything consistent. 
 
@Umbraa said:

Carol is whatever they want her to be...75 or higher.

No, Carol is class 75 like she was suggested to be. If she does anything beyond that, it's because her strength increases with energy absorption. Other than her feats are consistently telling of where her strength supposed to be.
 
@Umbraa said:

Same with the Thing, once he was 75, now he is higher. Same with Namor, once he was 75, now he's higher. See how that works...

Those strength upgrades are documented and shown in comics. Besides this poorly written instance in Av X, I'd like to know where you've seen Cage lift even 30 tons let alone 50-75. The Thing and Namor have showings that back up what is also stated about them.
 
@Umbraa said:

This is a fact, the Source books don't dictate ANYTHING. 

Comics do though, and most often performs under the level you're saying he's at. 
 
@Umbraa said:

If they want to make Carol 100 class now...there is nothing you can do about it. You can disagree and not like it all you want...but that's your opinion. Again, they are not held hostage to these things you are talking about.

If a character has a strength upgrade there's usually some way to prove that. Cage didn't have strength upgrade pass class 25 and he's never shown otherwise. This isn't my opinion. I read comics. If your OPINION is that Cage is class 50-75 then what are you basing it on? Are you basing it on what Brevoort said or have you actually seen strength feats for Cage that match up?
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#37 Posted by Umbraa (915 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Umbraa said:

Listen, this MY opinion. I don't agree with you.

How can you have an opinion about something that can be proven?

@Umbraa said:

Listen, this MY opinion. I don't agree with you. I'm not taking anyone word, It's my opinion and I just think that your logic is faulty...what I believe just happeneds to be similar to how creators, who actual have a say in the stories write the characters. Like it or not Brevoort is Senior Vice President of Publishing of Marvel Comics. He runs the day to day stuff and all editors have to report to him. He is also viewed as the lore guy, the cannon guy...but when he says that writers and not held hostage to source books or stuff that YOU want, well I agree.

How is my logic faulty when I'm using what is written as source material?

@Umbraa said:

Cage has been depicted in the 50-75 range before Bendis started writing him.

You said this already and it's still false. He has never been depicted as class 50-75 with anything consistent.

@Umbraa said:

Carol is whatever they want her to be...75 or higher.

No, Carol is class 75 like she was suggested to be. If she does anything beyond that, it's because her strength increases with energy absorption. Other than her feats are consistently telling of where her strength supposed to be.

@Umbraa said:

Same with the Thing, once he was 75, now he is higher. Same with Namor, once he was 75, now he's higher. See how that works...

Those strength upgrades are documented and shown in comics. Besides this poorly written instance in Av X, I'd like to know where you've seen Cage lift even 30 tons let alone 50-75. The Thing and Namor have showings that back up what is also stated about them.

@Umbraa said:

This is a fact, the Source books don't dictate ANYTHING.

Comics do though, and most often performs under the level you're saying he's at.

@Umbraa said:

If they want to make Carol 100 class now...there is nothing you can do about it. You can disagree and not like it all you want...but that's your opinion. Again, they are not held hostage to these things you are talking about.

If a character has a strength upgrade there's usually some way to prove that. Cage didn't have strength upgrade pass class 25 and he's never shown otherwise. This isn't my opinion. I read comics. If your OPINION is that Cage is class 50-75 then what are you basing it on? Are you basing it on what Brevoort said or have you actually seen strength feats for Cage that match up?

Lol, again what I'm saying that that Class 25 and Class 75 DOES NOT MATTER. They are class whatever the writers want them to be...so when he is going toe to toe with Namor, it's not "bad writing"..it just means your faux battle class system does not matter. That's a fact.

#38 Posted by Vance Astro (91286 posts) - - Show Bio
@Umbraa said:

Lol, again what I'm saying that that Class 25 and Class 75 DOES NOT MATTER. They are class whatever the writers want them to be...so when he is going toe to toe with Namor, it's not "bad writing"..it just means your faux battle class system does not matter. That's a fact.

It has nothing to do with a "battle system". It has everything to do with writers, showing something contradictory to what has been shown consistently. That's where we start classifying things PIS,CIS etc. because sometimes writers act like fanboys. Everything they put down on the page isn't right, just because we're dealing with fiction. 
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#39 Posted by Cozy_Da_Djed_Eye (10116 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this thread got ugly =]

#40 Posted by PassionFlower (960 posts) - - Show Bio

I look forward to seeing the abilities of "King of the Dead" T'Challa. It is going to interesting and fun judging from FF 607/608.

#41 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10586 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally think we'll get a good showing in Infinity if Hickman get's his way.

Panther looks like he's gonna go up against Black Dwarf which should be a good fight.

#42 Posted by SUNMAN (7251 posts) - - Show Bio

for the record Cage is much closer to Thing level now going by the comics.

As for BP considering he woned Black Dwarf, the same guy that was tossing Gladiator around today. I'd say it's a substantial power up. He's probably at least 2000s Spider-Man level or stronger now.

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