Batwoman was the only Bat-Family member who wasn't kidnapped by the Joker.

Why?

Why didn't she appear at all?

@stronger: Because she isn't a member of the Bat-Family.

Why isn't she a member of the Bat Family?

@stronger: She wasn't raised or trained by Batman, doesn't know his true identity, doesn't associate with the family, and I don't think Batman trusts her. She's not on his speed dial for contacting family members and she turned down an offer to join Batman Incorporated.

There might be more reasons, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Yep. What V_S_R said. That is why I prefer Batwoman. Her stories are never bogged down by the other bat-books.

I also really like that about her series. Not being in the family lets her own story go on uninterrupted, and allows her to grow independently as a character.

Batman offered her to join the family which she kind of, but not officially turned down. Then the D.E.O. forced her to work for them once they figured out her identity. Batman said to her that working with the D.E.O will inevitably put her at odds against him.

Then why did she chose the Bat?

I haven't read Batwoman prior to the New 52, but I would expect it was for symbolism already established with the Bat.

Pretty much that. Her dad, Jacob, suggested she should wear a Bat-symbol so that people would know that she was a hero and not a villain.

Because she is wearing the bat name but she is not part of the family.

@lewismcgregor: @v_scarlotte_rose:

That's really not right if you ask me.

Stealing the idea of a man,to establish your own self and then not accepting his offer for improving you and providing help you require to do your job.

Batwoman should either be a member of the Bat-Family or change her name.....

@stronger: She just uses the identity to show she's on the side of justice. She wants to help people, and a Bat-symbol shows that.

I don't think she should be a member of the family. I like that she does her own thing away from them. I'd actually rather see her be the head of her own Bat-family than join Batmans'. Probably won't happen though.

Her own Bat-Family? I don't think she is popular enough to do something like that.

Anyway,if she doesn't join the gang,it's plain theft and mockery to Batman and what he stands for.....

Otherwise she should just take on another identity.

But it's just me........

@stronger: I know, just thought it could be cool. She's slightly older than Batman, and has had some pretty intense training, so it could be interesting if she ended up being like an equal to him, family and all.

They both stand for justice and fight crime though, if she was some kind of villain, that might be different.

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a new identity. I'd still read her comics, but I'd rather it didn't happen.

I agree since Batman is a symbol and anyone can be a Batman, at least that is how I see it. Having her own Bat family, I don't see it yet. She is doing good on her own and we already have a Bat family. I don't think many people would want another one.

Batwoman hasn't enough feats to compare to Tim Drake,let alone Batman himself.She really needs some more feats to compare against the Bat-Family members (apart from Barbara who sucks at h2h).

The only thing I didn't like about Batwoman is that when she was offered the help of Batman and his family,she refused.....

I mean why? Why would she refuse to Batman? He let her where the costume,do the thing and be just like him even though it's really dangerous. Batman spent 20-25 years only PREPARING for Gotham.......

@papabearg4d: I didn't mean it too seriously. Just meant I'd rather see her start her own than join Batmans'.

@v_scarlotte_rose: Ahh, if that is the case, I agree as well, I'd rather see her have her own family than join Batman's family.

@stronger: Well she's fairly new on the scene. I'm sure she'll get there.

She wasn't sure if she thought Batman Incorporated was a good idea, told him she'd think about it, but then got kinda forced into working with the D.E.O. She didn't refuse straight away, but she didn't seem to keen on joining.

I don't think him letting her do it is a factor, why would he stop her. And it's been estimated that Batman is 31 in the New 52, so are you sure it's 20-25 years of training. Do you have scans that show that or anything?

Batman's parents died when he was 8.

He spent his youth traveling the world, training himself to intellectual and physical perfection and learning a variety of crime-fighting skills, including chemistry, criminology, forensics, martial arts, gymnastics, disguise, and escape artistry.

At age 14, Bruce Wayne began his global sojourn, attending courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities. At age 20, he attempted to join the FBI.He had also several degrees by the time he was 21 and way more by the time he was 25.

He also learned martial arts by the greatest teachers alive (Kirigi,Henri Ducard,Richard Dragon) during his travels.He was also trained by the U.S army and the F.B.I.

And Batman currently is not 31.Before the reboot he was exactly 41 years old.

After it,he should be 34-36 years old.

Have you read her stories in the New 52? She didn't refuse she thought about it and as @v_scarlotte_rose said she was then forced in with the D.E.O, then she pretty muched saved the whole of Gotham from being consumed by ancient Greek monsters, that's a pretty big feat by any means.

@stronger: According to his page on here:

"At age fourteen, Bruce started a twelve year walkabout around the world seeking experts in many fields, training himself mentally and physically. From an academic standpoint, he studied at Cambridge in England, the Sorbonne in France, and other famous European universities. A Frenchman named Henri Ducard taught him man-hunting, a ninja named Kirigi taught him stealth, an African bushman trained him in the art of the hunt, and Nepalese monks taught him healing.Bruce returned to Gotham City, where he became a vigilante."

So that's 12 years of training. He would have been 26 when he became Batman, and apparently he's been Batman for five years. That would make him 31. I suppose either of us could be right though. Does any know for sure?

That's true. She had some help with the fighting, but it was her cunning that ended it.

If I may interject, the way I read the first Batwoman issue, it was really just a matter of Kate wanting to do her own thing. In Gotham, the Bat is a symbol for justice. And Batman did inspire Kate to become Batwoman when he saved her in Batwoman: Elegy. So it's only natural that she'd want to use the Bat-symbol in her own exploits. Plus, Kate has had her fair share of feats (both pre- and post-Flashpoint) and just as much if not more physical training than any member of the Bat-family (save maybe Bruce himself) so she is 100% qualified for her job.

I really like the idea of thinking of Bruce and Kate as having separate Bat-families. We all know Bruce's family and Kate (so far) has Flamebird and Jacob. There's just something revolutionary sounding about the two distinct families being loosely linked both by the Bat-symbol and by Kate's relation to Bruce. I'd love if the term Batwoman-Family began being used.

Butting in is fine. You've summed up all the important details pretty well. :)

Also, I'm just thinking, considering the Waynes and Kanes were two of the 'First Families Of Gotham', it could be kind of fitting for a Wayne and a Kane to be leading two seperate crime fighting families. :)

@v_scarlotte_rose: I definitely like that image. There's something really dynamic about the image of two Bat-families -- one led by Bruce and represented by his black Bat-symbol and the second led by Kate and being represented by her red Bat-symbol.

Of course, we're a long way off from that happening. But it'd be really cool to see someday. Depending on how the next Batwoman arc goes, I can even see Chase growing apart from the DEO and coming to respect Kate. I have an image of her family being composed of herself, Better, Jacob, Chase, and Maggie.

Oh please let this happen. *wiggles with glee*

@stronger: The main reason she declined Batman's offer to join him is that she doesn't want to be subservient to him in an organization where she'd be basically a glorified assistant. She wants to do her own thing, answering to no one -- which promptly got screwed up when the D.E.O. blackmailed her (literally: they would turn her father in to a military tribunal for using military equipment to train her if she refused). She's not exactly thrilled to be under the DEO's wing. That headstrong independence is something I love about her; for once we have a female character not tied to any man either organization-wise or romantically; free to do her own thing. We've seen Batman run into her multiple times, so if he was offended in any way by her adopting the Bat emblem he'd have plenty of opportunity to say so.

If you can find Batwoman #0 (it's in her second volume, To Drown the World), we see Batman watching her operate, with an almost proud expression, as if he's impressed and flattered that someone so tough would choose him as an inspiration. So I don't find her not being in the Bat Family gauche or rude, but rather a case of "Imitation is the sincerest flattery."

@supbatz: Yeah it'd be a long while before there'd be anything resembling a 'family', if it ever did happen. It could be cool, but I'd be fine if it didn't happen.

I think they'd need a few more people in costumes, but seeing as a Batwoman-Family may have to follow a different format, it could be different.

The obvious comparisons would be Batwoman being head of the family like Batman, and Hawkfire/Flamebird being the Robin of the group. Maggie would be kind of like Commissioner Gordon, though he probably doesn't count as one of the Bat-Family.

Jacob would probably be seen as a combination of Alfred and Oracle, what with him taking care of Bette at home, and helping her out during missions via communication devices. If Kate and Jacob were to go back to being like a family, he could be the Oracle to her too.

I think Chases' future in the series isn't necessarily guaranteed, as if Kate leaves the DEO, Chase might not continue to be in the series, but this arc could change things, so it's hard to tell.

Comparing the potential Batwoman-Family to the Batman-Family could be the wrong way of looking at it, as any group of supporting characters on her side could potentially be considered to be like a family, depending on how close they are. For example, given time, Abbot could have become a much closer ally, and there isn't an equivalent to him in the Batman-Family. I don't imagine someone like Claire or Hayes will be taking up Abbots' role in the series, so we perhaps wouldn't see a were-beast on the team.

In the article on 'Four Characters We'd Like To See In The New 52'(or whatever it was called), it was suggested that Ragman should return, possibly in the pages of Batwoman. If that was to happen, he could maybe be part of the Batwoman-Family. The thing about the Batman-Family is that it's mostly composed of Robins and Batgirls, and so to not be exactly the same as them, the Batwoman-Family might be better to be composed of other Gotham based heroes, who haven't necessarily been sidekicks of Batwoman. I like Ragman, so it could be cool to see him potentially be on her team. And as was said in the article, his supernatural background could fit the tone of the series rather well.

At this point in time, I'm not sure who else could be part of the Batwoman-Family, but she's still quite a new character, and more characters will inevitably be created or re-introduced into continuity in years to come, so it's difficult to speculate properly.

I didn't realise I'd be typing this much. Anyway, to sum up, A Batwoman-Family could happen, but probably not anytime soon. I'd probably be O.K. with it, but then again, it may be better if it didn't happen. Right now, it's probably best to keep things as they are, with not too many characters getting involved, but as she develops as a character, the day may come in, I dunno, 20 years or something, where it'd be right for her to have her own little team.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see, and keep on enjoying her stories every month. :)

@v_scarlotte_rose: Fair enough on all accounts. Most of my speculation was me being a starry-eyed fan-boy. But realistically, you're most likely right that we won't see anything even remotely resembling a second family for years (if at all).

Since you bring it up, I really do hope that Batwoman finds a way to distance herself from the DEO. We say in Batwoman 18 that she's being rebellious and not following orders. So it's only a matter of time before she finds a way to break away from being a tool for the government. Like you said, it's more likely that when the DEO becomes less involved in the series, Chase will follow. But a part of me gets the feeling that Chase will be sticking around for a while - mostly because I feel like she's been getting a lot of focus recently to just be thrown away. I feel like Williams and Blackman have big plans for her.

Ragman is a good idea. As is Montoya (if she ever returns). As you said, Kate's supporting cast is liable to change as time passes. We've already seen Renee come and go as a big part of Kate's crime-fighting life. So it's fair to assume that other characters will come and go in the same manner.

Still, I can always dream of seeing a Batwoman family someday :). It'd be the ultimate way to distance her from Batman while maintaining her credibility as a unique hero.

@supbatz: I like Chase, but I would also kinda like to see Batwoman break off from the DEO. If they can find a way to keep her around, I'd be O.K. with it. It's possible that she'll be around for a while, as J.H. Williams co-created her, and obviously enjoys writing her.

If Renee is to return, I get the feeling it will be in the pages of Batwoman, but as Vic Sage is back, she probably wouldn't be The Question. Her coming back could also cause some tension between Kate and Maggie, as Maggie knows that they were former girlfriends. Whatever happens, it would be interesting I'm sure, but it could get uncomfortable. If it showed that Kate and Renee had both moved on, that could be nice to see. I'm not sure if she'd end up being a regular supporting character, but I suppose it could happen.

I think Batwoman needs more crossing over into any of the other Bat-titles to stop losing sales every month.

Batwoman's sales aren't that bad (she's 24th out of the New 52 and is still above 30,000, hanging steady at 80% of Wonder Woman's sales) nor is she declining sharper than the average for a DC title, but I would love for a round of cameos in other Bat titles to bring in a new round of readers.

Although Batwoman's isolation also means that her stories are very nicely self-contained; there's no need to track down any other series to get a different view of the action. The one issue where she beat up Batgirl in a page and a half (sorry Babs fans) is the only major appearance (i.e. more than one quick panel) of hers in another title since the reboot that I can think of.

@dtaranguiz: I don't think that'll happen. I spoke to J.H. Williams on twitter, and he doesn't seem to like crossovers because it means you have to read another series to get the full story.

Most comics lose sales every month, it just happens.

I wish there were an issue called 'Batman and Batwoman' in the renamed Batman and Robin series but probably won't happen.

Where do you know he was 26 when he became Batman? He was born in 1972.He should actually be 41 by now.After the reboot he is 5-10 years younger.

His parents died when he was 8 and then a month later he started training.I say he became Batman in his 30s.

After he became Batman he also trained about a year after Infinite Crisis and when his back was recoved he trained with Lady Shiva.

This could only be considered as a smarts feat.And all the Bat-Family members have way more.

Being a member of Batman Inc doesn't make you Batman 's servant.It makes you his partner.Now if the DEO blackmailed her not to enter Batman's organisation then it;s another thing entirely.

@stronger:

Batwoman declines joining Batman Inc. in Batwoman #2, where she cites her desire to do her own cases, since she was knee deep in the Weeping Woman case and didn't want to be sidetracked by Joker Adventure #1482. But she tells Bats once the case is done, she'll find him again to discuss the opportunity further, so her intent is clear that she would rather be allied with him if she had to take sides.

The DEO screws that up in issue 6, by in addition to blackmailing her about her father, getting her identity by arranging to have her cousin (Flamebird) ambushed and nearly gutted, leaving her just conscious enough to stammer Kate's name. So the DEO has Kate ensnared through multiple family members, and they explicitly say if she goes to Batman for help, her father's going to prison and her cousin is going to be less lucky next time.

The Weeping Woman mess is finally resolved at the end of issue 18, and with a clearly agitated Batwoman trying to break free of the DEO, in the most recent issue (19), the DEO brings back at the end some long-lost woman that we can't see -- blackmail piece number three. So Kate is stuck on multiple levels with the DEO, but she still gives Batman a secret hand in the last issue by slipping him evidence on a villain after she "loses" her headset with the DEO to be off-mic. So her preference is clear: independence first, but Batman second.

But all this character noting overlooks the simplest reason she's not in Batman, Inc: her writers don't want her to. J. H. Williams III, her main artist and head writer, has been very clear and consistent that he does not want her in any crossovers like Death of the Family, but rather doing her own thing. The quickest answer to your OP is that she doesn't take part because her writers don't want her to be part of it.

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be. Concerning the bat symbol, isn't Kate related to Kathy Kane "the original Batwoman" so I feel Kate has the right to that moniker and any associated symbols.

Concerning the two family aspect Bruce's mama was a Kane before she was a Wayne. Just wanted to point that out.

@stronger: I'm just going by the quote from his page. Starting at 14 and having 12 years of training before returning to be Batman makes him 26. I've heard several times that at the start of the New 52, he's been Batman for five years.

I'm not trying to say she has as many feats as the Bat-Family members. She's not been around as long as most of them, and has appeared in much fewer issues.

Even if it's being Batmans' partner, it's still being part of his group. I'd rather she did her own thing.

Yeah, it does kind of all come down to this. I think he said that he wants to keep her away from the Batman world as much as possible, to give her a chance to develop as her own character, rather than risk her end up just being thought of as a Batman supporting character.

They might be related in some way, but it doesn't seem to have been officially addressed. As far as I'm aware, Kate doesn't know of any relation to her.

When Kate fought Kathys Batwoman in Batman Incorporated, she was in contact with Jacob using some kind of communication device, and he didn't mention anything about them being related. And back in the day Bette Kane was the niece of Kathy Kane, and she hasn't mentioned it either. I get the feeling that Flashpoint may have removed Kathy Kane from continuity, meaning Kate has been the only Batwoman. I can't be sure, but it seems possible.

I didn't know Martha was a Kane. I suppose with the Kanes being one of the first families of Gotham, it might be quite a common name.

@chisoxrox: I see.

@v_scarlotte_rose: Batman started his training from age 8.

Intriguingly, if Bruce Wayne is early 30s right now, he and Kate Kane are nearly the same age: her Detective Comics run has a "twenty years ago" flashback where she was 12, and at least a year has passed since the events of that run, meaning Batwoman is currently 33.

@stronger: According to what? A new 52 comic?

@chisoxrox: That's how I worked it out before. I wrote out a detailed version on here somewhere, I'll see if I can find it. The same age and amount of time is mentioned in the second #0 of her series, meaning her age was unaffected by Flashpoint, which is interesting seeing as it apparently affected several other characters ages.

@chisoxrox: Found it. It's a few issues out of date, so I'll have to update it at some point:

"In Detective Comics 858, part 1 of the 'Go' storyline, which is set on and around Kate and Beths' twelfth birthday twenty years before 'Elegy', Kate and Beths' mother Gabrielle says "You're both acting like you're five, not twelve!"

I read somewhere that Batwomans' back story and timeline were unaffected by Flashpoint, which seems to be confirmed by Batwoman #0('Interlude', not 'Beyond A Shadow') having all of the same elements of back story as 'Go', and mentioning in the 'Who's Who In The New 52' section, her mother and Beth being murdered on her twelfth birthday. Plus the line from Kate in Batwoman #1 "For nearly twenty years, I thought my mom and sister Beth had been murdered."

In Batwoman #1, Kate says,"So, you finally gonna ask me out?", to which Maggie Sawyer responds, "Thought I already did. I gave you my card weeks ago..." If we assume that she gave her her card at the fundraiser in Detective Comics 856, when they first met, then 'Hydrology' takes place probably no more than about three months after 'Elegy'

The 'To Drown The World' story arc (Batwoman #6-#11) is set 'now' and in a series of flashbacks. #6 shows 'Maro's Story, One Month Ago' Maros' forced are fighting werebeasts, and shows Rush having his left hand removed and replaced with the hook. The aftermath of that fight is shown in Batwoman #2, with werebeasts and Maros soldiers lying dead all around. A detective, who I think is Bullock says, "At least no one got snatched huh?", to whichg chase replies, "Oh, really? Well this doesn't belong to any of the victims.", holding up a severed left hand in an evidence bag.

Flamebird(Bette Kane) is attacked and cut open by Rush in Batwoman #4, and in Batwoman #6, her uncle, Kates Father, Jacob Kane, is shown visiting Bettes' hospital bed, one month ago. These factors suggest that the events of Batwoman #1-11 take place over the course of about a month. There are flashbacks to Maros story four and two months before the end of 'To Drown The World', but these take place before the events of Batwoman #1. This means that 'To Drown The World ends about three or four months after 'Elegy' and 'Go'.

In Batwoman #12, she says to herself, "It's been nine months since the first kids went missing, and I'm still chasing urban legends." If we take 'Maro's Story, Four Months Ago' from Batwoman #6, to be the first kids being killed, the time between #1 and #12 is about six months. in Batwoman #13, Chase says to Bones that Batwoman and Wonder Woman have been away two days.

So, as #14 seems to be set at about the same time as #13, we can say that the first issue of 'Hydrology' took place about six months and two days ago, and as 'Elegy/Go' was no more than three months before 'Hydrology', Batwoman #14 is set no more than nine months and two days after 'Elegy/Go', where Kate is 32, as it's set roughly twenty years after her twelfth birthday. The dates aren't exact, but if it was slightly less than twenty years, she's slightly older than 32, maybe 32 and a half. If it was slightly more than twenty years ago, she might be 33 at this point.

So. Kate Kane/Batwoman is 32 or 33. :)"

@v_scarlotte_rose: According to Pre 52 comics.

@stronger: Flashpoint changed things though. That might not be the case any more.

Thread is tl;dr but I wanted to say that I cannot wait for a "Batman vs. Batwoman" kind of arc. It was already seeded: when Kate told Bruce she was working with the DEO, he told her that would "inevitably put them at odds."

Yeah. Batwoman's rad.

Also, this was probably already discussed, but was anyone else made vaguely uncomfortable by the scene where Bette is getting brutalized by the Hook, and he's being all creepy about it and there's the sex scene between Kate and Mags interspersed? Gave me the heebily-jeebilies. Hook is crazy.

Agreed.

@end_boss: It seems like they could end up facing each other. I don't know what kind of conflict it would be, but it could be interesting to see how their skills match up against each other.

I think it may have been designed to be uncomfortable, showing such a stark contrast between pain and pleasure, and that Kate has no idea what is happening to Bette. It set things up for Kate to feel guilty for not looking after her. Quite effective.

@stronger: How is it mocking Batman. She isn't going out and trying to ruin Batman's name. She was inspired by him, and her father chose the name for her. She has saved the city, and deserves the symbol. Besides, DOTF has basically scattered the Bat-fam, so just because they aren't all goody goody with Bruce does that mean they have to turn in their uniforms?

Batwoman serves as a symbol of the Bat, without being tied down by what Batman wants to do. It is exactly what Babs did as Batgirl, but when Batman asked her to join him, she said yes. besides, i dont think he has a huge probem with it

The bat-family isn't tied down to what Batman wants to do.They are free to fight the crime however they want.

Everyone does what he wants to do,Nightwing is in Chigago,Red Hood uses guns Tim Drake goes off with the Titans whenever he wants.While I agree there orders from Batman not to do some particular things,everyone fights the crime the way he wants to.Also they have full support from Waynetech and Batman himself.

I don't why Batwoman isn't free if she alies herself with him,in your opinion.....