Was Death of the Family rendered pointless?

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#1 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

I was initially so upset about Damian's death that I couldn't think about anything else. Now that I've calmed down a bit, I'm really starting to see that Morrison did more than just kill the character with this move. DotF was 23 issues of hard work from a bunch of different writers. The end result was a separated and weakened Bat Family. Now, hardly a month after the event ended Damian is killed. How can they really stay apart when Bruce needs them more than ever?

#2 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Were living in an exciting Batman world right now, alot of things are happening, its exciting, its fresh, its shocking! theres drama, theres death! love it :D

#3 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

Morrison does not care about the other writers all he cares about is his story and legacy in which after he is gone the rest of the writers will fix the mess he left behind. Morrison is a one man show who takes nothing but what he wants into consideration. I really liked a lot of his stuff but INC is just a dumb idea with C level characters and now with him killing Damian just because it is his character im done with his stories and i cant wait for him to leave so the other writers can fix this.

#4 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201: I agree. Morrison's stuff is what really got me into DC comics in the first place and Damian ensured I would pick up New 52's Batman & Robin. I seriously think the only reason he did this was to overshadow Death of the Family. Yeah I know he had this planned originally but he put it aside once the character became so popular. Suddenly, he's leaving so his character goes with him.

#5 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@gettogaara said:

@havoc1201: I agree. Morrison's stuff is what really got me into DC comics in the first place and Damian ensured I would pick up New 52's Batman & Robin. I seriously think the only reason he did this was to overshadow Death of the Family. Yeah I know he had this planned originally but he put it aside once the character became so popular. Suddenly, he's leaving so his character goes with him.

couldnt agree more, i really feel like Damians death was pointless and cheap, i mean there was no reason in the over all story of all the Bat books now all the writers of the other books have to focus on the aftermath of Damians death for the rest of their run on their series, When DC killed of Jason it was bc the fans voted for him to die Damain was very popular also he was Ten years old and Bruces real son, if he dosnt kill talia or Damians clone then there is no justice, and as a parent i could not see myself getting over the death of my child ever.

#6 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

is he leaving DC after hes done?

#7 Edited by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201: Holy crap. This is like looking into a mirror lol. I was saying similar things yesterday about how this was totally unnecessary and all of the other writers would have to change their plans. Also about how if Batman does not avenge his son then he's a poor father. Many people say that Batman should never kill and stick to that but losing his son who barely even had time to live SHOULD push him over the edge. Then again it depends on the writer. I'm sure we'll see many different kinds of reactions from Bruce.

#8 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

no killing talia..or anyone i say

#9 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@gettogaara said:

@havoc1201: Holy crap. This is like looking into a mirror lol. I was saying similar things yesterday about how this was totally unnecessary and all of the other writers would have to change their plans. Also about how if Batman does not avenge his son then he's a poor father. Many people say that Batman should never kill and stick to that but losing his son who barely even had time to live SHOULD push him over the edge. Then again it depends on the writer. I'm sure we'll see many different kinds of reactions from Bruce.

dead on, i really think once Morrisons run is over Damian will be back if he does not bring him back by the end of Batman INC. In a iterview with G.M he said that Damian would die a heroic death but really it was just a violent death and it stopped nothing he didnt save Gotham he was just killed, and now with the link of Bruce Wayne loosing a Ten year old son and Batman loosing a Ten year old partner how could his secret identity not be known?

#10 Posted by atonemented (43 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk I just want some clarity on the continuity

#11 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@atonemented said:

Idk I just want some clarity on the continuity

they should have stated at the begining of the new 52 that Batman INC is not in the same timeline and let Morrison finish his run without any consequences in the other books.

#12 Posted by End_Boss (735 posts) - - Show Bio

Death of the Family was rendered pointless, but Snyder didn't need Morrison's help to do that.

#13 Posted by MuyJingo (2184 posts) - - Show Bio

Death of the family was always pointless. Yes, Joker did some stuff to the family, but nothing that will make them split apart, nothing that has a lasting impact. They were hanging out at Wayne manor in the next issue! Nothing happened, really. I understand it was meant to be psychological, and there were some cool moments...but nothing happened. Nothing has changed as a result of DOTF. Except that Bruce was made to look arrogant and shown to be wrong...but the rest of the family still trusts and looks up to him....nothing changed.

This though...really is a DoTF. This is going to have mourning and strong consequences for a long time to come. Was DOTF overshadowed? Yes, but that isn't hard to do. Just have an arc that has ramifications that last longer than an issue after the arc completes.

#14 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything is pointless and just enjoy each comic story independently of other stories. Just let go of all the pointless stuff and move on.

#15 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

Death of the family was always pointless. Yes, Joker did some stuff to the family, but nothing that will make them split apart, nothing that has a lasting impact. They were hanging out at Wayne manor in the next issue! Nothing happened, really. I understand it was meant to be psychological, and there were some cool moments...but nothing happened. Nothing has changed as a result of DOTF. Except that Bruce was made to look arrogant and shown to be wrong...but the rest of the family still trusts and looks up to him....nothing changed.

This though...really is a DoTF. This is going to have mourning and strong consequences for a long time to come. Was DOTF overshadowed? Yes, but that isn't hard to do. Just have an arc that has ramifications that last longer than an issue after the arc completes.

i can see what you are saying but also to kill a character is a cliche in comics and used to make a story shocking when you have a weak ending, i truly think after Morrison leaves this will be changed and Damian will be back.

#16 Posted by waezi2 (8461 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo: I agree.

By the way, it was a little too long, and the Catwoman part was pointless.

#17 Posted by waezi2 (8461 posts) - - Show Bio

@waezi2: Why the hell do I still try to care about the new 52?

#18 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

I just thought about something, isnt the DCU gonna revert back to the way it was or similar after the whole Pandora,Phantom Stranger, and Question trinity war thing. Is it possible Damian could return through that. Maybe DC will still be the New 52 but change again after the Trinity War. I don't know, I want the little guy back.

#19 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@atonemented said:

Idk I just want some clarity on the continuity

agreed

#20 Posted by TheCowman (461 posts) - - Show Bio

It doesn't overshadow it for me, but sadly others might see it that way.

I applauded Snyder's ballsy decision to not kill or maim anyone at the end of Death of the Family. It took a lotta guts in today's comic world where every event has to have "lasting consequences", "up the ante", and "shake the hero to his core", to say, 'yeah, nobody dies. The Joker was just ****ing with them the whole time'.

I loved that aspect of the story cause it really drove home the fact that you really have NO idea what the Joker might do. The Joker really is capable of anything, including NOT killing anybody.

Why?

Nobody knows. He's the frickin' Joker.

But sadly many will now focus on Damian's death. Cause, y'know, THAT'S something really new, ain't it? <------- (sarcasm is sarcastic)

#21 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201: Words of truth and wisdom, my friend. He's written some good stories, but the fact he shows so much disrespect towards others complicates always things(something that he's strongly indicated in the past by naming childish - or something like that - the stories of other writers).He leaves a mess and I don't know how DC will manage to deal with it. Only time will tell and I know, I know...Morrison is a genius, Morrison this, Morrison that...

#22 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

okay... hit it right in the nail there..

#23 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

And yes. Damian's death makes completely meaningless DOTF.

#24 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCowman said:

It doesn't overshadow it for me, but sadly others might see it that way.

I applauded Snyder's ballsy decision to not kill or maim anyone at the end of Death of the Family. It took a lotta guts in today's comic world where every event has to have "lasting consequences", "up the ante", and "shake the hero to his core", to say, 'yeah, nobody dies. The Joker was just ****ing with them the whole time'.

I loved that aspect of the story cause it really drove home the fact that you really have NO idea what the Joker might do. The Joker really is capable of anything, including NOT killing anybody.

Why?

Nobody knows. He's the frickin' Joker.

But sadly many will now focus on Damian's death. Cause, y'know, THAT'S something really new, ain't it? <------- (sarcasm is sarcastic)

perfect my thoughts exactly

#25 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

And yes. Damian's death makes completely meaningless DOTF.

why?

#26 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

@havoc1201: Words of truth and wisdom, my friend. He's written some good stories, but the fact he shows so much disrespect towards others complicates always things(something that he's strongly indicated in the past by naming childish - or something like that - the stories of other writers).He leaves a mess and I don't know how DC will manage to deal with it. Only time will tell and I know, I know...Morrison is a genius, Morrison this, Morrison that...

right i mean this man used pasts like the silver age and golden age stories in his arch when neither are part of this earth and yet it was still in continuity it didnt make any sense and now he goes and kills Damian to make sure his mark is left on Batman... i respect Synder for saying he did not want his legacy on Batman to be a bloody one.

#27 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

well look at all the years Morrison writes batman....i mean when hes done he wanna leave a mark right..

#28 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201: Yeah I really don't get what Morrison meant by that. He said he goes out like a hero, he saves the world and goes out an absolute hero. He saved that girl but that's about it unless I missed something. As for Damian Wayne's death, it will not go unnoticed unless Bruce goes out of his way to hide it. Anyone with a brain would compare Damian to the newest Robin, see a young boy with black spiky hair and realize they're the same person.

@FatihBATMAN: Talia's a good character. I don't really want to see her die but like the Joker, Batman would be more than justified in killing her. Don't you think Bruce not avenging his son is worse then him killing no one? Also, Morrison is leaving comics after #12 of Batman Inc.

@MuyJingo: Well remember, Joker told the entire family things that Batman didn't hear and that's what really drove them apart. Batman asked Nightwing what he had said but he didn't tell him. I personally liked it because it proved that you don't need to have a character die in order to make a good story. It dragged a little bit with certain issues but others outshined the rest so it was a pretty even trade. I was hoping we would find out more about what the Joker had said to each of them but I guess it's all pointless now. What issue were they back at the manor(Besides Damian who lives there)?

@evilvegeta74: It is? I don't remember hearing anything like that but it'd be great if he could come back like that. Maybe Prime could show up out of the blue and bring him back with a punch lol.

#29 Posted by AustinHasten (219 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCowman said:

I applauded Snyder's ballsy decision to not kill or maim anyone at the end of Death of the Family. It took a lotta guts in today's comic world where every event has to have "lasting consequences", "up the ante", and "shake the hero to his core", to say, 'yeah, nobody dies. The Joker was just ****ing with them the whole time'.

I loved that aspect of the story cause it really drove home the fact that you really have NO idea what the Joker might do. The Joker really is capable of anything, including NOT killing anybody.

Why?

Nobody knows. He's the frickin' Joker.

#30 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

well look at all the years Morrison writes batman....i mean when hes done he wanna leave a mark right..

yes of course he would want to but by killing Damian its a mark that will be left with mixed reviews and will probably be turned over. But if he left Damian alive a character which he created that is a great legacy its not very easy to create a new character that can stand the test of time now a days in comics but he did that and Damian has become a part of the Bat mythos and he could have grown like Nightwing did but instead he killed him off in a cheap move to make his story "Epic". What a waste

#31 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

ok...its cool, havent looked at it from that angle...

#32 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything the Joker does is pointless except for Joker's true love for the Batman. Or maybe Joker only loves Batman's body. Dc does not need any Robin so I am glad Grant Morrison got rid of the garbage right before leaving the Batman books.

#33 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

prepare for flaming :D

#34 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

@evilvegeta74 said:

I just thought about something, isnt the DCU gonna revert back to the way it was or similar after the whole Pandora,Phantom Stranger, and Question trinity war thing. Is it possible Damian could return through that. Maybe DC will still be the New 52 but change again after the Trinity War. I don't know, I want the little guy back.

There's nothing to suggest that the DCU is reverting back to anything. Trinity War is just an event within the New 52 continuity.

#35 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@gettogaara said:

@FatihBATMAN: Talia's a good character. I don't really want to see her die but like the Joker, Batman would be more than justified in killing her. Don't you think Bruce not avenging his son is worse then him killing no one? Also, Morrison is leaving comics after #12 of Batman Inc.

Batman can avenge his son in so many ways, than killing. Why kill? nothing good comes out of it, if he kills, the bad guys will win, end of story....really hehe

#36 Edited by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@Imagine_Man15 said:

@evilvegeta74 said:

I just thought about something, isnt the DCU gonna revert back to the way it was or similar after the whole Pandora,Phantom Stranger, and Question trinity war thing. Is it possible Damian could return through that. Maybe DC will still be the New 52 but change again after the Trinity War. I don't know, I want the little guy back.

There's nothing to suggest that the DCU is reverting back to anything. Trinity War is just an event within the New 52 continuity.

The reason things are the way they are has something or everything to do with the trinity so whose to say right. Something massive is gonna happen in the New 52 once the Trinity war is over, that's a given. I'm just saying anything is possible.

#37 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN: Honestly, I like that Batman doesn't kill and it's great that he's stuck with it for so long but if he had killed the Joker way back he would've saved hundreds of lives in the process. The villains know Batman will hurt them, send them to jail and they can break out shortly after. They're already winning. Killing is not such a black and white thing. It's like the quote "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

The whole Batman to kill or not to kill is another topic though lol.

#38 Edited by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Imagine if Batman had killed off Joker lets say 10 years ago....right?

Then you would never have had DoTF or Nolans films....

so I say lets stick to the no killing rule okay :D?

#39 Posted by entropy_aegis (15445 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

@havoc1201: Words of truth and wisdom, my friend. He's written some good stories, but the fact he shows so much disrespect towards others complicates always things(something that he's strongly indicated in the past by naming childish - or something like that - the stories of other writers).He leaves a mess and I don't know how DC will manage to deal with it. Only time will tell and I know, I know...Morrison is a genius, Morrison this, Morrison that...

You mean Alan Moore? who does the exact same thing to other writers or Frank Miller and Mark Millar who ARE childish and juvenile.Morrison has shown no disrespect to any others.

Death of the Family was irrelevant and useless long before Morrison wrote INC#8.

Was the craptastic tray mystery Morrisons fault?

Was the faceless Joker idiocy Morrisons fault?

Did either of them have any value or significance? NOPE

DOTF did absolutely nothing for Joker or his relationship with Batman,other than repeating what we already know(and I'm being gnerous when I say repeat,others users like Fadetoblackbolt would outright call it a ripoff).

It's attempt to drive a wedge between the Bat family also failed spectacularly based on Tomasi's Batman & Robin and Lobdells Red Hood(both Damian and Jason have no problem with Bruce).

In short DOTF was pointless already,story lines like Fugitive/Murder and War Games attempted to do the same and neither of them accomplished anything in the long run.The whole "Bruce Wayne is a mask,he's grieving,everybody abandons him" is a tired cliched trope,in short DOTF was destined to fail.

#40 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN: Well obviously I don't want the Joker to die, he's my favorite comic book villain. One of the main things that got me into Batman was his vast rogue's gallery. I was just explaining that taking a life isn't the wrong thing to do in every instance.

#41 Posted by entropy_aegis (15445 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

@FatihBATMAN said:

well look at all the years Morrison writes batman....i mean when hes done he wanna leave a mark right..

yes of course he would want to but by killing Damian its a mark that will be left with mixed reviews and will probably be turned over. But if he left Damian alive a character which he created that is a great legacy its not very easy to create a new character that can stand the test of time now a days in comics but he did that and Damian has become a part of the Bat mythos and he could have grown like Nightwing did but instead he killed him off in a cheap move to make his story "Epic". What a waste

Atleast he made Damian an actual character,unlike the Hush caricature Lincoln March"HOO BRUCE I'M YOUR EVIL BROTHER NOW LETS FIGHT"

Hilariously Morrison parodied crap characters like those 2 with Doctor Hurt.

Damian's death was part of the journey Morrison planned for him right from the onset,there's nothing cheap about delivering something you planned on doing years ago.This is a culmination of Morrisons entire saga that started long before most of the creative teams on Batman even thought of working on the character.

#42 Posted by ccraft (5594 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

Death of the family was always pointless. Yes, Joker did some stuff to the family, but nothing that will make them split apart, nothing that has a lasting impact. They were hanging out at Wayne manor in the next issue! Nothing happened, really. I understand it was meant to be psychological, and there were some cool moments...but nothing happened. Nothing has changed as a result of DOTF. Except that Bruce was made to look arrogant and shown to be wrong...but the rest of the family still trusts and looks up to him....nothing changed.

This though...really is a DoTF. This is going to have mourning and strong consequences for a long time to come. Was DOTF overshadowed? Yes, but that isn't hard to do. Just have an arc that has ramifications that last longer than an issue after the arc completes.

we really dont know what the real ramifications are. RHTo had a bunch of them there, but for some of the Bat-fam that is there home, and they dont hate Bruce, they just dont trust him. We havent seen the new issue and we are still seeing consequences from DOTF. it isnt pointless, because Dick is leaving, Jason is messed up, Tim is possessed, and Damian is dead (from Batman Inc) Babs is the only one who hasnt shown much difference but she hasn't talked to Bruce yet. But I agree that there should be an arc meant to show the ramifications. I agree that DOTF is overshadowed by Damian's death and Im not a huge supporter of Morrison, but he did tell the writers that Damian was going to die, so illl give Morrison props for actually keeping people filled in, it just so happened that DOTF was going on and finishing when Batman Inc killed Damian.

#44 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: I knew you were coming!!! ;) Don't get me wrong. I know he's a great writer. I recognize the fact he really knows the characters he's getting into. It's obvious. But, and it's a huge but, I believe he has a thing with disrespecting other writers. I don't know him personally! Maybe I got him wrong. Yet, I can't forget his statement. I've seen it with my own eyes, him saying that if comic book fans don't get his stories they should read childish stories from other writers. I've seen it, man. Honestly. And I'm pretty sure I can find it again. This statement is at least inappropriate and it's only an indication about his "feelings" towards his fellow-writers. I want you tell me something and I know you'll be sincere. I say : Damian's death - terrible cliché, that complicates things in a bad way. What do you say? I want you to know that I understand your passion with Morrison and I respect that. I'm not a fanboy (or at least I hope I'm not, lol) saying bad things about a writer I don't like. By the way, you do think DOTF was terrible or at least terribly mediocre, don't you?

#45 Posted by entropy_aegis (15445 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

@entropy_aegis: I knew you were coming!!! ;) Don't get me wrong. I know he's a great writer. I recognize the fact he really knows the characters he's getting into. It's obvious. But, and it's a huge but, I believe he has a thing with disrespecting other writers. I don't know him personally! Maybe I got him wrong. Yet, I can't forget his statement. I've seen it with my own eyes, him saying that if comic book fans don't get his stories they should read childish stories from other writers. I've seen it, man. Honestly. And I'm pretty sure I can find it again. This statement is at least inappropriate and it's only an indication about his "feelings" towards his fellow-writers. I want you tell me something and I know you'll be sincere. I say : Damian's death - terrible cliché, that complicates things in a bad way. What do you say? I want you to know that I understand your passion with Morrison and I respect that. I'm not a fanboy (or at least I hope I'm not, lol) saying bad things about a writer I don't like. By the way, you do think DOTF was terrible or at least terribly mediocre, don't you?

This I agree with,as far as Damian's death is concerned it's not really a cliche cause the last time a Robin died it was almost quarter of a century ago,a cliche is something that is used repeatedly.DOTF was a huge cliche,same goes for Court of Owls they all featured the usual cliches that I've come to expect from lazy Batwriters(secret mastermind villain,mysteries that are pointless and cruel,torture & excessive gore,omniscient villain who goes from badass to joke when a wildcard shows up or events take an unexpected turn,rift between Batman and allies and more).Damian's death is part of the story,not some mandatory exercise to spice up the event.

Morrison is not a saint,I'll never claim that but the writers he usually tends to lowball are obnoxious in their own way.

#46 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Hes been in the game for a long time, so he maybe feels he can do "whatever" he damn wants with his own character?

#47 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN: Sure, he can! That doesn't mean we can't describe it as poorly executed. Anyway, a second Robin dies and it's his son? I don't like the idea. Perhaps, it's the comfort zone you said somewhere else, but having the right to express my thoughts, I say I find it cheap.

#48 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1667 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: I said it's a cliché, cause it was unnecessary, it's the second Robin that dies and I'm a little bit over the head with all these "heroic" deaths. Having this said, I can't say I haven't enjoyed his run. I don't like how he ends it. Of course, it's his call, but I'm entitled to my own opinion. I would expect much more from the guy that wrote Arkham Asylum.

#49 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you think he ends his run :)?

#50 Edited by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@ccraft thx for the link! well said entropis!

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