The BatFamily is too big

#1 Posted by comicdude23 (11399 posts) - - Show Bio

That's the truth. Batman, Dick, Tim, Damian, Cassandra, Steph, etc. It all feels like a big circus act, that and Steph is weak. I'd bet Mike Tyson could KO her. I'm being honest here in everything I say. It's too big, agree?

#2 Posted by SupBatz (1737 posts) - - Show Bio

Completely 100% disagree. I actually like the idea of a big, extended Bat-family. A guy like Batman has got to have a lot of contections. And Gotham could use all of the protectors it could get.

I think the key to such a large Bat-family working is that each member operates independently. We seldom (if ever) see the entire group together at one time. Most of them operate on their own for a lot of their appearances with a team-up with Batman being an occassional occurrence (except maybe for Robin).

It also helps that each member of the family is such an interesting character in his or her own right.

#3 Posted by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

Completely 100% disagree. I actually like the idea of a big, extended Bat-family. A guy like Batman has got to have a lot of contections. And Gotham could use all of the protectors it could get.

I think the key to such a large Bat-family working is that each member operates independently. We seldom (if ever) see the entire group together at one time. Most of them operate on their own for a lot of their appearances with a team-up with Batman being an occassional occurrence (except maybe for Robin).

It also helps that each member of the family is such an interesting character in his or her own right.

Many of them are interesting, yes, but not all of them.

As for the Bat-family in general, the only ones I dislike are Batwoman (I have no official reason because I've never read her comics, but she seems unnecessary) and Batwing (I've read one of his comics and he IS unnecessary). Damian Wayne is stupid as crap but they have to have a Robin so for now he should stay. Batgirl is okay, Nightwing is classic and rocks, Red Robin and Red Hood are cool, Catwoman is sexy so she's immune, and Batman is Batman. They're the only relevent Bat-family members in the New 52 right now, if I recall correctly.

#4 Posted by SupBatz (1737 posts) - - Show Bio

@minigunman123 said:

@SupBatz said:

Completely 100% disagree. I actually like the idea of a big, extended Bat-family. A guy like Batman has got to have a lot of contections. And Gotham could use all of the protectors it could get.

I think the key to such a large Bat-family working is that each member operates independently. We seldom (if ever) see the entire group together at one time. Most of them operate on their own for a lot of their appearances with a team-up with Batman being an occassional occurrence (except maybe for Robin).

It also helps that each member of the family is such an interesting character in his or her own right.

Many of them are interesting, yes, but not all of them.

As for the Bat-family in general, the only ones I dislike are Batwoman (I have no official reason because I've never read her comics, but she seems unnecessary) and Batwing (I've read one of his comics and he IS unnecessary). Damian Wayne is stupid as crap but they have to have a Robin so for now he should stay. Batgirl is okay, Nightwing is classic and rocks, Red Robin and Red Hood are cool, Catwoman is sexy so she's immune, and Batman is Batman. They're the only relevent Bat-family members in the New 52 right now, if I recall correctly.

I can't speak for Batwing because I've never read his series but Batwoman is pretty great. If you ever get the chance, I reccommend reading the first volume of her New 52 series. If anything will change your opinion of Batwoman, it'll be that or a story arc from a few years back called Elegy.

Damian really depends on the writer and the story. Most of the time I really like him though.

#5 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

Completely 100% disagree. I actually like the idea of a big, extended Bat-family. A guy like Batman has got to have a lot of contections. And Gotham could use all of the protectors it could get.

I think the key to such a large Bat-family working is that each member operates independently. We seldom (if ever) see the entire group together at one time. Most of them operate on their own for a lot of their appearances with a team-up with Batman being an occassional occurrence (except maybe for Robin).

It also helps that each member of the family is such an interesting character in his or her own right.

this

#6 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz: I recommend the first Batwing arc. It is great, and among the most original stuff that has come out of the New 52 so far.

First 8 issues.

I hope they don't cancel it soon... He's a cool Bat-family addition.

#7 Posted by richardjohngrayson (429 posts) - - Show Bio

But ....OP, Cassandra and Steph kind of don't exist as of now. Not one New 52 appearance.

Online
#8 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twentyfive said:

@SupBatz: I recommend the first Batwing arc. It is great, and among the most original stuff that has come out of the New 52 so far.

First 8 issues.

I hope they don't cancel it soon... He's a cool Bat-family addition.

lol no.

As far as the size of the Bat-family; The list on comicvine just has every possible person one might consider. Maybe they should be called Bat-friends rather than Family...or Bat-Acquaintances.

#9 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: Hmm. Okay. I apologize that you and I have different opinions about the same character, or any opinions that conflict with each other at all. But there is no reason for you to be an ass about it. Do that crap elsewhere.

#10 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13201 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends on who you would consider "family". not all bat-related characters are part of it.

#11 Posted by entropy_aegis (15326 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

It depends on who you would consider "family". not all bat-related characters are part of it.

Indeed and not all of them are active.

#12 Posted by batmanary (798 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

It depends on who you would consider "family". not all bat-related characters are part of it.

Indeed and not all of them are active.

And the ones that are are fairly interesting, and good characters to boot!

#13 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10890 posts) - - Show Bio

The question actually should be:

Does all of this people count as part of the Batfamily?

Many of that people, are people they know or people they work with.

For me the Batfamily is.

Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damien, Alfred, Barbara and Selina.

The rest are just people they work with.

#14 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33484 posts) - - Show Bio
@DeathpooltheT1000: I'd add Cassandra Cain to that list as Bruce did adopt her 
#15 Edited by quirky_anecdotes (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@Twentyfive said:

@SupBatz: I recommend the first Batwing arc. It is great, and among the most original stuff that has come out of the New 52 so far.

First 8 issues.

I hope they don't cancel it soon... He's a cool Bat-family addition.

lol no.

As far as the size of the Bat-family; The list on comicvine just has every possible person one might consider. Maybe they should be called Bat-friends rather than Family...or Bat-Acquaintances.

I'm glad you put a lot of time and effort into that post and gave us many valid reasons for why you dislike the series instead of simply saying something childish like "Lol no."

I appreciate your great addition to the discussion at hand.

#16 Posted by SoA (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: i agree

#17 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@DeathpooltheT1000: I'd add Cassandra Cain to that list as Bruce did adopt her

Not in the New 52 he hasn't.

#18 Edited by DeathpooltheT1000 (10890 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonkeyToe: @Jonny_Anonymous said:

@DeathpooltheT1000: I'd add Cassandra Cain to that list as Bruce did adopt her

Family is made by love and the relationship, not because a document say it.

Cassandra is in the weird list, of almost a Batfamily member, but still need to be closer to them.

#19 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33484 posts) - - Show Bio
@MonkeyToe: The OP doesn't specify also we don't know if she has or hasn't been adopted yet 
 
@DeathpooltheT1000: I'd say she was, she was closer to Bruce than Daiman as been  
#20 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@MonkeyToe: The OP doesn't specify also we don't know if she has or hasn't been adopted yet

@DeathpooltheT1000: I'd say she was, she was closer to Bruce than Daiman as been

True enough I guess. But on that note, I think it is important to revise how big the Bat Family actually is. Neither Cassandra nor Steph have been introduced in the New 52 which is the current continuity. Regardless of past arcs, the current bat family IS Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian, Tim, and Barbara and Serina at the basic level, not regarding cousins twice removed (I.E. Batwing, Birds of Prey, Batman Inc, ect). I don't feel Cassandra and Steph should be on the list... yet.

As far as 'not knowing yet', it's been a year. It would be totally bad form to go back and say... oh by the way Bats still has an adopted daughter that we haven't mentioned since the launch of the new 52.... sooooooo HELLO CASSANDRA. That would be ridiculous.

#21 Posted by ltbrd (562 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't mind Batman having a big support cast as each one is non-superpowered like him and thus the idea that they would need each other to tackle problems that someone like Superman could do alone is understandable. Take patrolling Gotham for example. Bruce just couldn't do it every night. So having Nightwing and the others to set-up a patrol schedule around makes sense.

My issue with Batwoman is that until the new 52 she didn't really have a motivation to be a vigilante and seemed to just be DC's attempt to make a female Bruce Wayne from the rich person angle but not the tragic background one. With the new 52 given her a more tragic backstory I can accept her taking on a costume a bit more but think that it is wrong of DC to use a bat moniker. Personally I hate same named characters and feel they lack imagination. Though using an old name is not very imaginative, given her past I think Kate Kane would have made a better Huntress than Batwoman, but her costume could have the Batwoman style with Huntress colors. Yes, I know Huntress is featured in the latest World's Finest and part of the new 52 is not confusing new readers, but I also think the new World's Finest series is crap and DC would have been better suited using Huntress for Kate Kane or even Cassandra Cain and Power Girl for the new 52 Kara Zor-El.

I think Batwing's series is finally coming into its own and he's been a good character in both Nightwing and Justice League International. I just wish they had called him something else. With all the great African birds to choose from, it would have been nice to go with another name to fit his flight based suit and combat style.

#22 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33484 posts) - - Show Bio
@MonkeyToe: A year in our time. In universe its only been a few weeks
#23 Posted by BatWatch (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll agree that is is big, but personally, I love that. If Bruce is going to start training proteges, why stop at one? Why not equip as many as are willing and able to fight?

On the other hand, having trained any of these people in the amount of time provided by the DCNU simply does not work. I want to slap DC hard for that executive decision!

Also, Steph is weak, but that is what makes her a compelling character. She is weak in abilities (though only in comparison to the first rate fighters and detectives that make up the rest of the Bat Clan), but she is strong in spirit.

@ltbrd said:

Don't mind Batman having a big support cast as each one is non-superpowered like him and thus the idea that they would need each other to tackle problems that someone like Superman could do alone is understandable. Take patrolling Gotham for example. Bruce just couldn't do it every night. So having Nightwing and the others to set-up a patrol schedule around makes sense.

My issue with Batwoman is that until the new 52 she didn't really have a motivation to be a vigilante and seemed to just be DC's attempt to make a female Bruce Wayne from the rich person angle but not the tragic background one. With the new 52 given her a more tragic backstory I can accept her taking on a costume a bit more but think that it is wrong of DC to use a bat moniker. Personally I hate same named characters and feel they lack imagination. Though using an old name is not very imaginative, given her past I think Kate Kane would have made a better Huntress than Batwoman, but her costume could have the Batwoman style with Huntress colors. Yes, I know Huntress is featured in the latest World's Finest and part of the new 52 is not confusing new readers, but I also think the new World's Finest series is crap and DC would have been better suited using Huntress for Kate Kane or even Cassandra Cain and Power Girl for the new 52 Kara Zor-El.

I think Batwing's series is finally coming into its own and he's been a good character in both Nightwing and Justice League International. I just wish they had called him something else. With all the great African birds to choose from, it would have been nice to go with another name to fit his flight based suit and combat style.

Interesting idea to name Batwing after an African bird...or perhaps an African bat? However, the name Batwing does not bug me as it apparently bugs so many others.

Has Batwoman's past been altered in the DCNU?

#24 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@MonkeyToe: A year in our time. In universe its only been a few weeks

I think that is a debatable statement if someone were to go in and actually calculate the time that has passed in the Batman comics over the course of the year. Regardless. 12 Comics over the course of 4 actual batman titles and 3 satellite books and NO mention of an adopted daughter would make it ridiculous to have not heard of her before now. ESPECIALLY since the family portrait was done in one of the Batman titles. They mentioned that the Red Hood was not included but no one said anything about Cassandra. It would be a sloppy retcon at best.

#25 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@quirky_anecdotes: I've made my point with Batwing more than enough in the past. I don't feel like pointing out why Batwing is a crappy character and at least his first arc is garbage.

#26 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed, the Bat-Family is really big... Although I don't mind all the extra Robins at all... :P

#27 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to admit that I don't like chopping down so much on the female side of the family while leaving the male side untouched. If it's too big, it's too big. Much as it would pain me, I'd rather they'd have cut Jason and Tim if they were going to cut Cass and Steph. And I'm aware that they're talking future plans for Cass and Steph, but unless their histories are intact, they were cut. Jason and Tim could've gotten reintroduced the same way Cass and Steph are (assuming they are being treated as "new" characters). I just don't like the inconsistencies that created.

And really, as bad as the bat family is, we are on the cusp of having six male American Green Lanterns. That's way too many of that.

#28 Posted by comicdude23 (11399 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a joke IMO. Batman is a dark gritty character, I'm cool w/ Dick and Tim, but the others aren't needed.

#29 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I have to admit that I don't like chopping down so much on the female side of the family while leaving the male side untouched. If it's too big, it's too big. Much as it would pain me, I'd rather they'd have cut Jason and Tim if they were going to cut Cass and Steph. And I'm aware that they're talking future plans for Cass and Steph, but unless their histories are intact, they were cut. Jason and Tim could've gotten reintroduced the same way Cass and Steph are (assuming they are being treated as "new" characters). I just don't like the inconsistencies that created.

And really, as bad as the bat family is, we are on the cusp of having six male American Green Lanterns. That's way too many of that.

I agree. I don't see how they can reintroduce Cass or Steph without having cut out some of their history.

Six American Green Lanterns? Which Lanterns am I missing? (Plus I think the new Lantern is supposed to be middle eastern if internet rumor is true?)

#30 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@MonkeyToe said:

@fodigg said:

I have to admit that I don't like chopping down so much on the female side of the family while leaving the male side untouched. If it's too big, it's too big. Much as it would pain me, I'd rather they'd have cut Jason and Tim if they were going to cut Cass and Steph. And I'm aware that they're talking future plans for Cass and Steph, but unless their histories are intact, they were cut. Jason and Tim could've gotten reintroduced the same way Cass and Steph are (assuming they are being treated as "new" characters). I just don't like the inconsistencies that created.

And really, as bad as the bat family is, we are on the cusp of having six male American Green Lanterns. That's way too many of that.

I agree. I don't see how they can reintroduce Cass or Steph without having cut out some of their history.

You'd think, right? But now Shiva is supposed to be about the same age as Nightwing. So how young would Cass have to be?

Six American Green Lanterns? Which Lanterns am I missing? (Plus I think the new Lantern is supposed to be middle eastern if internet rumor is true?)

  1. Alan Scott - Earth-2
  2. Hal Jordan - JL
  3. John Stewart - GLC
  4. Guy Gardner - GLC
  5. Kyle Raynar - NG
  6. "Baz" - New guy (He's "Arab-American")
#31 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: is that Jim Cornette? OH MY!

#33 Posted by comicdude23 (11399 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree.

#34 Posted by MonkeyToe (386 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@MonkeyToe said:

Six American Green Lanterns? Which Lanterns am I missing? (Plus I think the new Lantern is supposed to be middle eastern if internet rumor is true?)

  1. Alan Scott - Earth-2
  2. Hal Jordan - JL
  3. John Stewart - GLC
  4. Guy Gardner - GLC
  5. Kyle Raynar - NG
  6. "Baz" - New guy (He's "Arab-American")

Ahhh. Alan was the one I was missing, because I hadn't been thinking about Earth 2 at the time. Though can you really count Alan Scott? In the New 52 he is really a GL in name only, he isn't a part of any corps but was instead granted his power by the Earth. He's more akin to Swamp Thing than he is to Hal Jordan (Green Champion of Earth 2 vs The Grey Champions Grundy is kinda mirroring the Green vs the Rot on Earth 1). And Baz is a replacement for a recently deceased Green Lantern I won't name so as not to spoil anything, which brings us back to 5 GL. Being that I don't count Alan as a 'corpsman' or universal police man, I am only counting the other 4.

And I see your point about them all being American and why that would be a seemingly odd concept for an intergalactic police force that doesn't care about nationalities. What it really boils down to, I think, is the market. Comics are still a predominantly American industry, aren't they? Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I think it boils down to being able to relate to what we read. I mean, I think it would be interesting to have a GL from another country in the corps, I just don't think it would garner enough interest to hold down an ongoing title. I had to drop Batwing for that reason. The writing and stories weren't bad, I just can't relate to a Hero that doesn't operate on my home turf.

Are there any comic books out currently about foreign super heroes or teams that are doing well in the market right now?

#35 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10890 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous: Closer to Bruce yes, but Damien is closer to the rest of the Batfamily Member, heck i mean he pretty mcuh has a relationship with Jason, taking the fact Jason dont have any type of Relationship with Selina and Barbara, is pretty amazing.

Also Damien is pretty much the grandson of Bruce and the son of Dick, so that could explain why Damien and Bruce dont have very close relationship.

#36 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13201 posts) - - Show Bio

It's it that big really, it's just Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Tim, Babara and Damian. Cass and Stephanie probably don't even exist anymore and the rest arent part of the actual bat-family.

#37 Posted by whoohoo789 (219 posts) - - Show Bio

the bat-family neads to be big so that if someone dies or is wounded there is always be the next one to protect gothem city

#38 Posted by thespideyguy (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

Big is cool, you know cause big family's always have a head.

#39 Posted by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio

@whoohoo789 said:

the bat-family neads to be big so that if someone dies or is wounded there is always be the next one to protect gothem city

#40 Posted by The_MVPs (84694 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@DeathpooltheT1000: I'd add Cassandra Cain to that list as Bruce did adopt her

Did that ever actual happen? Bruce said he was going to, then RIP happened, and the adoption thing was never mentioned again.

Moderator
#41 Posted by Humanoid (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@minigunman123 said:

@SupBatz said:

Completely 100% disagree. I actually like the idea of a big, extended Bat-family. A guy like Batman has got to have a lot of contections. And Gotham could use all of the protectors it could get.

I think the key to such a large Bat-family working is that each member operates independently. We seldom (if ever) see the entire group together at one time. Most of them operate on their own for a lot of their appearances with a team-up with Batman being an occassional occurrence (except maybe for Robin).

It also helps that each member of the family is such an interesting character in his or her own right.

Many of them are interesting, yes, but not all of them.

As for the Bat-family in general, the only ones I dislike are Batwoman (I have no official reason because I've never read her comics, but she seems unnecessary) and Batwing (I've read one of his comics and he IS unnecessary). Damian Wayne is stupid as crap but they have to have a Robin so for now he should stay. Batgirl is okay, Nightwing is classic and rocks, Red Robin and Red Hood are cool, Catwoman is sexy so she's immune, and Batman is Batman. They're the only relevent Bat-family members in the New 52 right now, if I recall correctly.

Does Alfred count as the bat family? I guess he's a no brainer though. I think Alfred is more important to Batman than the boy wonder. I don't care for the Birds of Prey, Batman Inc or Batwing though. Don't really find any of them interesting.

#42 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicdude23 said:

That's the truth. Batman, Dick, Tim, Damian, Cassandra, Steph, etc. It all feels like a big circus act, that and Steph is weak. I'd bet Mike Tyson could KO her. I'm being honest here in everything I say. It's too big, agree?

You do realize that at one point he was a heavyweight boxing champ. One of his nicknames is the "Baddest Man on the Planet". He bit off part of Holyfield's ear, that's pretty extreme. If he can't take a teenage girl I feel sorry for him.

As many have already stated, the Batfamily is rarely all in the same place at once nor do they all operate together. Batwoman is pretty isolated, Batwing is in Africa, Tim is off with the TT, Dick does his own thing (occasionally helping which I'm ok with), Damian is 10 and his son, Jason is off in space with Kory and Roy, Cass and Steph are MIA.

Each member has their own specific purpose and, when used correctly, plays a crucial role to Batman. The family isn't too big, but I definitely believe that their is room to focus more in depth on some of the ancillary characters. Also they should give some hint to the status of Cass and Steph.

#43 Posted by comicdude23 (11399 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@comicdude23 said:

That's the truth. Batman, Dick, Tim, Damian, Cassandra, Steph, etc. It all feels like a big circus act, that and Steph is weak. I'd bet Mike Tyson could KO her. I'm being honest here in everything I say. It's too big, agree?

You do realize that at one point he was a heavyweight boxing champ. One of his nicknames is the "Baddest Man on the Planet". He bit off part of Holyfield's ear, that's pretty extreme. If he can't take a teenage girl I feel sorry for him.

As many have already stated, the Batfamily is rarely all in the same place at once nor do they all operate together. Batwoman is pretty isolated, Batwing is in Africa, Tim is off with the TT, Dick does his own thing (occasionally helping which I'm ok with), Damian is 10 and his son, Jason is off in space with Kory and Roy, Cass and Steph are MIA.

Each member has their own specific purpose and, when used correctly, plays a crucial role to Batman. The family isn't too big, but I definitely believe that their is room to focus more in depth on some of the ancillary characters. Also they should give some hint to the status of Cass and Steph.

I mean Mike Tyson could beat Steph. Not anyone high tier like Bruce or Dick, I made a Muhammad Ali vs Steph thread and it got locked for being spite against Steph. Obviously he can take Steph easily.

#44 Posted by TDK_1997 (14896 posts) - - Show Bio

Not all of them are active and not all of them should be considered part of the family.But even if they are,the idea for a big Bat-family is great and there almost aren't weak characters.

#45 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Batwoman shouldnt be there imo. But I like the character Oracle.

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