So, Batman's new origin/inspiration

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#1 Posted by MuyJingo (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't seen anyone really talking about this.

What do you guys think of Batman's new inspiration for becoming Batman?

The Red hood gang burned down part of his mansion, and there was a bat crawling on the bust of his father, as opposed to him sitting down and having a drink and a bat crashing through his window.

I don't care too much at this point, but I certainly prefer the previous version. I thought there was something about having him contemplate on what to do next, only to have the answer come crashing through a window. I think it was a powerful moment with an interesting contrast, something the new take lacks. A minor point however.

More interestingly, is that this seems to contradict the bat crashing through the window that was in court of the owls. How can both moments be harmonized?

#2 Edited by tec79 (158 posts) - - Show Bio

There is no way to harmonize the two moments unfortunately. Any real impact is lacking in Snyders version, this was the moment that saved Bruce Waynes life and gave birth to the Batman persona. I found the moment it self to be anti climactic, there was no sense of desperation or Bruce finding the will to live and fight on. My hope is that Snyder has something really special for the first time Bruce dons the cape and cowl.

#3 Posted by MuyJingo (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand why you would do something like the New 52 and not take greater care with having a consistent continuity.

It would seem to negate the purpose, in some respects.

#4 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (5934 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the New Bat scene better but ya I agree

#5 Edited by UncleEmu (179 posts) - - Show Bio

The new bat origin is a lot more exciting than the older one, but it doesn't have as much depth. Doesn't seem like it will have as much re-read value either. Also, I'm not a big fan of the Uncle character, seems pretty unnecessary.

And that hologram ball thing is just lame. Not to mention that Bruce was stabbed, shot, beaten, and hurt about 5x more than in Year One and somehow manages to get to the manor. It was barely believable in Year One haha

The Red Hood Gang is pretty sweet though. I really hope the leader isn't the Joker; I would appreciate a bold new move from DC, instead of just saying their recycled crap is new and exciting.

#6 Posted by MuyJingo (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

@uncleemu: The Red Hood Gang takes a lot away from Joker's origin, where red hood was a single entity, a patsy for a group of mobsters.

#7 Posted by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm more annoyed that the Bat which inspired Bruce went on to be eaten by an owl.

#8 Posted by MrShway88 (655 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought the hollow gram is more powerful than the bat crashing through the window. The hollow gram actually puts Bruce in a new world when he was asking for help from his father. The hollow gram, which was his father's idea and invention, gave Bruce his answer. So the scene is not only Bruce deciding to don the bat but it was done with the help of his father adding a new element to the origin. I like both version but I think this a good improvement. I don't see how it takes away anything, I just see it adding to the legend.

#9 Edited by joshmightbe (24690 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: To be fair that's pretty much what would happen to a bat if it happened upon an owl in real life. Unless its one of those big ass fruit bats then it wouldn't be much of a fight for an owl.

#10 Edited by MuyJingo (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought the hollow gram is more powerful than the bat crashing through the window. The hollow gram actually puts Bruce in a new world when he was asking for help from his father. The hollow gram, which was his father's idea and invention, gave Bruce his answer. So the scene is not only Bruce deciding to don the bat but it was done with the help of his father adding a new element to the origin. I like both version but I think this a good improvement. I don't see how it takes away anything, I just see it adding to the legend.

Why would his father inspire him to be a bat?

@entropy_aegis said:

I'm more annoyed that the Bat which inspired Bruce went on to be eaten by an owl.

Hasn't that been retconned away now?

#11 Edited by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@entropy_aegis said:

I'm more annoyed that the Bat which inspired Bruce went on to be eaten by an owl.

Hasn't that been retconned away now?

I dont see how.

@entropy_aegis: To be fair that's pretty much what would happen to a bat if it happened upon an owl in real life. Unless its one of those big ass fruit bats then it wouldn't be much of a fight for an owl.

I just dont get the symbolism here,ofcourse a Bat will be eaten by an owl which in turn gets eaten by a cat which is run over by a clown in a circus van who is killed by a wrestler...see where I'm going? it's lousy and hilarious when you think about it.

#12 Posted by joshmightbe (24690 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: The symbolism was probably meant as foreshadowing about the threat level of the court of owls but I agree it was kind of blunt and sloppy. I just like to remind people that despite what Harry Potter would have you believe owls are not cuddly pets, they're vicious predators that would gladly eat you if they were big enough and I freely admit this has nothing to do with the rest of the thread.

#13 Posted by MuyJingo (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Because it seems that no bat crashed through his window to inspire him now.

#14 Posted by TakeLuutzen (123 posts) - - Show Bio

When i read the last issue, i'd forgot about that hologram ball. I thought that due to the amount of blood Bruce lost that he was tripping and saw this other world where his questions are easily answered.
As for the bat being eaten by an owl. Did anyone see the bat leave in this issue? So maybe when he flies away, he is still eaten, right?

#15 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

The Year One origin is perfect. Changing that just proves how clueless Snyder is.

Batman lays in his father's chair, bleeding and despairing. He is ready to give up on his crusade, and thus his life. He has the bell in hand that will bring him salvation, but he hesitates to ring it. He is about to give up.

And then the bat crashes through the window and rests atop his father's head. Bruce has received a message of almost Biblical clarity, and "yes, father, I shall become a Bat". He rings the bell, Alfred helps him, and the Batman is born.

It was perfect. Subtle, elegant and perfect.

Having some gang burn down his house is just pathetically generic by comparison.

Snyder clearly fails to realise that the reason Batman hasn't had a half-dozen origin retellings like other heroes is because Year One was completely flawless as a Batman origin. It never needed to be retold again, because Year One always worked. But that's not good enough for Snyder, he has to make sure everyone follows his pitifully dull canon.

#16 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Subtlety, where art thou?

#17 Posted by TDK_1997 (14467 posts) - - Show Bio

The Year One origin is the best because it was just perfect.Every single moment was amazing and I just loved the whole story and the bs SNyder said about how Batman needs a new origin because this is a whole new universe is the stupidest thing that I have ever heard.And so far that event has been just really poorly made and not entertaining at all.

#18 Posted by consolemaster001 (4974 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#19 Posted by TakeLuutzen (123 posts) - - Show Bio

#20 Posted by ImagineMan16 (466 posts) - - Show Bio

@uncleemu said:

The new bat origin is a lot more exciting than the older one, but it doesn't have as much depth.

You just summed up Snyder's entire run on Batman. Old concepts rehashed in way that is more exciting, but totally lacking depth. It would be acceptable if any of his stories were at least original, but he's actually snatching old stories, jamming pieces of them together, painting them up with more violence and shock value, and then robbing them of their intellect.

#21 Edited by SupBatz (1699 posts) - - Show Bio

Not a fan of Zero Year.

I like Snyder's writing. But his best work is when he creates his own new stories. Not when he tries to build up the history of an established character. Then it just rubs me the wrong way. I liked the Court of Owls story arc but I found myself cringing every time he tried to tie the history of the Court to the Wayne family history.

#22 Posted by toplel (807 posts) - - Show Bio

The Year One origin is perfect. Changing that just proves how clueless Snyder is.

Batman lays in his father's chair, bleeding and despairing. He is ready to give up on his crusade, and thus his life. He has the bell in hand that will bring him salvation, but he hesitates to ring it. He is about to give up.

And then the bat crashes through the window and rests atop his father's head. Bruce has received a message of almost Biblical clarity, and "yes, father, I shall become a Bat". He rings the bell, Alfred helps him, and the Batman is born.

It was perfect. Subtle, elegant and perfect.

Having some gang burn down his house is just pathetically generic by comparison.

Snyder clearly fails to realise that the reason Batman hasn't had a half-dozen origin retellings like other heroes is because Year One was completely flawless as a Batman origin. It never needed to be retold again, because Year One always worked. But that's not good enough for Snyder, he has to make sure everyone follows his pitifully dull canon.

While I do mostly agree with you, you have to keep in mind that the Snyder's Batman isnt as 'dark' as Millers. Hes going for 'more excitement' and naturally it leads to less depth. You can compare it to classical music and some new pop song thats catchy and exciting, but the classic will always have its own unique appeal.

#23 Posted by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

Incorporating the fancy hologram gizmo was also mistake in my eyes,sure it made for a beautifully illustrated page but it would've been better if there were actual bats,would've given it more natural feel instead of an artificial one.

#24 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: But this isn't catchy or exciting, because it's not new. It's the old stuff watered down and made terrible

It's Madonna's remake of American Pie.

#25 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

Miller's version worked because it was a simple, no bullshit portrayal of a bleak moment where a broken, hollow man made himself whole again through a bleak decision about what to do with the rest of his life. Snyder's version makes it seem like some kind of fairy tale where the prince comes face to face with his destiny.

It's just a little too Disneyfied. "Grim and gritty" is the criticism most of the kids are employing these days when it comes to Batman, but there are no two ways about it: the "I shall become a bat" scene was designed to be a grim moment, and it works best when it's grim and not filled with ethereal wonder or whatever.

Moderator
#26 Posted by toplel (807 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: It is for some people, especially those who started reading Batman with the new 52. Someone who hasnt had a taste of the classical has no reference to compare the new version to, so they like it.

@entropy_aegis: The bats that came in through the window were fake, but the one that sat on his fathers bust was real. But yeah, the scene with real bats surrounding him never gets old.

#27 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: Yeah... which makes them wrong due to ignorance lol

If you don't have a satisfactorily large pallet, then your opinion on the issue is void.

#28 Edited by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel said:

@fadetoblackbolt: It is for some people, especially those who started reading Batman with the new 52. Someone who hasnt had a taste of the classical has no reference to compare the new version to, so they like it.

@entropy_aegis: The bats that came in through the window were fake, but the one that sat on his fathers bust was real. But yeah, the scene with real bats surrounding him never gets old.

And that one bat was eaten by an owl...thus completely destroying the symbolism.

#29 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@toplel said:

@fadetoblackbolt: It is for some people, especially those who started reading Batman with the new 52. Someone who hasnt had a taste of the classical has no reference to compare the new version to, so they like it.

@entropy_aegis: The bats that came in through the window were fake, but the one that sat on his fathers bust was real. But yeah, the scene with real bats surrounding him never gets old.

And that one bat was eaten by an owl...thus completely destroying the symbolism.

BUT IT SET UP COURT OF OWLS.

Without that owl eating that bat, all the Court of Owls would had to have relied on was the fact they're an omnipresent, invisible evil organisation in order to be threatening.

Thank gosh for that Owl, because now they're scary.

#30 Edited by toplel (807 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Its a matter of taste. And Batman is pretty intimidating for new readers with the tons of books hes been in. Im just grateful Batmans characterization hasnt taken a complete 180 like Supermans or WW's in the new 52.

#31 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: But one hasn't developed taste if you've only read one run.

Batman wasn't intimidating at all for new readers, and the parts that were, Snyder hasn't touched. He's focusing on altering the stuff that was easy for new readers to get into (like Year One and the Killing Joke)

#32 Edited by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@toplel said:

@fadetoblackbolt: It is for some people, especially those who started reading Batman with the new 52. Someone who hasnt had a taste of the classical has no reference to compare the new version to, so they like it.

@entropy_aegis: The bats that came in through the window were fake, but the one that sat on his fathers bust was real. But yeah, the scene with real bats surrounding him never gets old.

And that one bat was eaten by an owl...thus completely destroying the symbolism.

BUT IT SET UP COURT OF OWLS.

Without that owl eating that bat, all the Court of Owls would had to have relied on was the fact they're an omnipresent, invisible evil organisation in order to be threatening.

Thank gosh for that Owl, because now they're scary.

LOL.

#33 Posted by toplel (807 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Maybe not as developed a taste as someone who has read more, but taste nonetheless.

And for someone who doesnt surf comic book forums but wants to get into Batman, hed see the over 10k issues hes been in and decide he'll just stick to movies and cartoons.

#34 Edited by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: If it's any consolation the Court is completely f*cked,dont be surprised if they stop existing sometime next year.

They have to deal with

Batman(and family)

Traitors such as Strix,Calvin Rose,Sebastian Clark,Lincoln March/Owlman and Felix Harmon the Gotham Butcher.

Mr Freeze

Bane(and an entire army of venomed up freaks). They've been getting their asses handed to them for a while now.

It's awfully meta when you think about it,not the fans but the characters hate them as well.

#35 Posted by Wolverine08 (38814 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Zero Year gotten any better? I picked up the first issue, and was disappointed as I have been with most of Snyder's run. Has it hopefully improved?

#36 Posted by toplel (807 posts) - - Show Bio


And that one bat was eaten by an owl...thus completely destroying the symbolism.

Not completely. That bat wasnt an exceptionally badass specimen and would have died some time later. The owl eating it brings in the aspect that though owls are natural predators of bats, Batman brought down the majority of the Court of Owls. I kinda dig that.

#37 Posted by MisterE (2 posts) - - Show Bio

It wasn't broke. There was no need to fix it.

#38 Posted by RustyRoy (11118 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm more annoyed that the Bat which inspired Bruce went on to be eaten by an owl.

Me too, he ruined a classic moment just to make a pointless point.

The Year One origin is perfect. Changing that just proves how clueless Snyder is.

Batman lays in his father's chair, bleeding and despairing. He is ready to give up on his crusade, and thus his life. He has the bell in hand that will bring him salvation, but he hesitates to ring it. He is about to give up.

And then the bat crashes through the window and rests atop his father's head. Bruce has received a message of almost Biblical clarity, and "yes, father, I shall become a Bat". He rings the bell, Alfred helps him, and the Batman is born.

It was perfect. Subtle, elegant and perfect.

Having some gang burn down his house is just pathetically generic by comparison.

Snyder clearly fails to realise that the reason Batman hasn't had a half-dozen origin retellings like other heroes is because Year One was completely flawless as a Batman origin. It never needed to be retold again, because Year One always worked. But that's not good enough for Snyder, he has to make sure everyone follows his pitifully dull canon.

That scene is perfect, I got goose bumps when I first read it.

Miller's version worked because it was a simple, no bullshit portrayal of a bleak moment where a broken, hollow man made himself whole again through a bleak decision about what to do with the rest of his life. Snyder's version makes it seem like some kind of fairy tale where the prince comes face to face with his destiny.

It's just a little too Disneyfied. "Grim and gritty" is the criticism most of the kids are employing these days when it comes to Batman, but there are no two ways about it: the "I shall become a bat" scene was designed to be a grim moment, and it works best when it's grim and not filled with ethereal wonder or whatever.

Agreed man, the other writers wrote Batman as a man who chose his own destiny, Snyder's run is made it as though the city chose everything and the man just followed.

@uncleemu said:

The new bat origin is a lot more exciting than the older one, but it doesn't have as much depth.

You just summed up Snyder's entire run on Batman. Old concepts rehashed in way that is more exciting, but totally lacking depth. It would be acceptable if any of his stories were at least original, but he's actually snatching old stories, jamming pieces of them together, painting them up with more violence and shock value, and then robbing them of their intellect.

My only disagreement is that his story isn't exciting, its longer than needed and all the build ups are cheap and boring and the climax is very disappointing.

#39 Posted by entropy_aegis (14425 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: I dunno man,the Bat inspired a legend,it just feels so awkward that after creating the Batman it goes on to be eaten.It's like Superman discovering Krypton is still intact moments after he told that he was it's last living being.

#40 Posted by RustyRoy (11118 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Zero Year gotten any better? I picked up the first issue, and was disappointed as I have been with most of Snyder's run. Has it hopefully improved?

I don't know, I have only read the first issue which was not bad IMO but from this thread it looks like it had gotten downhill, I was thinking of dropping Batman after Zero Year, it looks like I'll be dropping it sooner.

#41 Posted by toplel (807 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: I get your point, but again, it depends on how you look at it.

#42 Posted by Saren (25313 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

Miller's version worked because it was a simple, no bullshit portrayal of a bleak moment where a broken, hollow man made himself whole again through a bleak decision about what to do with the rest of his life. Snyder's version makes it seem like some kind of fairy tale where the prince comes face to face with his destiny.

It's just a little too Disneyfied. "Grim and gritty" is the criticism most of the kids are employing these days when it comes to Batman, but there are no two ways about it: the "I shall become a bat" scene was designed to be a grim moment, and it works best when it's grim and not filled with ethereal wonder or whatever.

Agreed man, the other writers wrote Batman as a man who chose his own destiny, Snyder's run is made it as though the city chose everything and the man just followed.

Other writers have introduced the destiny angle as well. That's not the issue I have with it. Morrison did his own retelling of the Year One scene in Batman: The Return where he told the story from the bat's point of view.

There's a destiny angle here as well; Morrison implies that it was fate that the bat should come crashing through the window that night. But his version isn't the Hallmark gift card moment that Snyder's is.

Snyder's storytelling across a variety of titles gets very predictable if you follow enough of his work. His favorite thematic element is a Mysterious Secret from the Past Returning to Haunt the Present. Hence the Court of Owls, hence the story of how the Joker card found its way into the Batcave, hence the story of Dick almost becoming a Talon, hence the story of the Four Families of Gotham, hence the story of the US Government secretly possessing their own Superman for the past 75 years. This usually has mixed results. Some of his takes like the Owls and the Joker card are bad because they muck around with continuity rather than develop it organically, while others are more successful because they either create a new continuity from an available emptiness (like Wraith) or they take an element of a previous story and develop it in a way that doesn't alter the original story (James Gordon Jr.).

Moderator
#43 Edited by Wolverine08 (38814 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy:

Smh, well that's a shame. I've been trying to like Snyder's Batman, but I just can't. I hope Batman's flagship title can improve soon.

#44 Posted by TDK_1997 (14467 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@toplel said:

@fadetoblackbolt: It is for some people, especially those who started reading Batman with the new 52. Someone who hasnt had a taste of the classical has no reference to compare the new version to, so they like it.

@entropy_aegis: The bats that came in through the window were fake, but the one that sat on his fathers bust was real. But yeah, the scene with real bats surrounding him never gets old.

And that one bat was eaten by an owl...thus completely destroying the symbolism.

BUT IT SET UP COURT OF OWLS.

Without that owl eating that bat, all the Court of Owls would had to have relied on was the fact they're an omnipresent, invisible evil organisation in order to be threatening.

Thank gosh for that Owl, because now they're scary.

An owl can change everything.And thank god that SNyder thought of such a beautiful moment to make the Court of Owls so scary and intimidating.All though they will get slaughtered because there are so many people that want to get revenge on them.

#45 Posted by MuyJingo (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

There's a destiny angle here as well; Morrison implies that it was fate that the bat should come crashing through the window that night. But his version isn't the Hallmark gift card moment that Snyder's is.

I don't think destiny is implied in those panels, it's a valid interpretation. Snyder makes it far less ambiguous, which is another reason it doesn't work so well.

Snyder's storytelling across a variety of titles gets very predictable if you follow enough of his work. His favorite thematic element is a Mysterious Secret from the Past Returning to Haunt the Present. Hence the Court of Owls, hence the story of how the Joker card found its way into the Batcave, hence the story of Dick almost becoming a Talon, hence the story of the Four Families of Gotham, hence the story of the US Government secretly possessing their own Superman for the past 75 years. This usually has mixed results. Some of his takes like the Owls and the Joker card are bad because they muck around with continuity rather than develop it organically, while others are more successful because they either create a new continuity from an available emptiness (like Wraith) or they take an element of a previous story and develop it in a way that doesn't alter the original story (James Gordon Jr.).

That's an excellent analysis, and something I had not noticed.

#46 Posted by RustyRoy (11118 posts) - - Show Bio

Other writers have introduced the destiny angle as well. That's not the issue I have with it. Morrison did his own retelling of the Year One scene in Batman: The Return where he told the story from the bat's point of view.

There's a destiny angle here as well; Morrison implies that it was fate that the bat should come crashing through the window that night. But his version isn't the Hallmark gift card moment that Snyder's is.

Snyder's storytelling across a variety of titles gets very predictable if you follow enough of his work. His favorite thematic element is a Mysterious Secret from the Past Returning to Haunt the Present. Hence the Court of Owls, hence the story of how the Joker card found its way into the Batcave, hence the story of Dick almost becoming a Talon, hence the story of the Four Families of Gotham, hence the story of the US Government secretly possessing their own Superman for the past 75 years. This usually has mixed results. Some of his takes like the Owls and the Joker card are bad because they muck around with continuity rather than develop it organically, while others are more successful because they either create a new continuity from an available emptiness (like Wraith) or they take an element of a previous story and develop it in a way that doesn't alter the original story (James Gordon Jr.).

That was my point too, the Bat crashing through window scene wasn't Bruce's doing, it was fate but Snyder seems to force everything as a destiny thing, maybe I'm biased but this everything is connected thing is very annoying.

Btw I haven't read this issue yet but the year one scene was already there in issue 7 so how can he get another origin?

#47 Posted by Grubich (368 posts) - - Show Bio

Think of it this way. Even tho the timeline is somewhat altered after flashpoint, what happened pre-flashpoint still happened.

#48 Posted by TakeLuutzen (123 posts) - - Show Bio

So to sum up this discussion: Miller fans hate Snyder fans, Morrison fans hate Miller and Snyder fans and Snyder fans keep their mouth shut.
My opinion is that every Batman fan has their own favorite Batman. Deal with it! Don't like Snyders run? Read Detective Comics. Don't like that one? Go ahead and read Year One over and over again.

Good luck

#49 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32846 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: well it wasn't Snyders idea to do the story, DC told him to do an origin

#50 Posted by redhood21 (774 posts) - - Show Bio

i think its fine...similar enough to year one and makes a lot more sense than sitting down to watch antiques roadshow when suddenly a bat appears in your house

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