Should Bruce ever change

#1 Posted by sockman19 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

everyone has probably either read batman, inc 8 by now or at least knows what happened.

Damian dying has left a lot of people, especially on CV, calling for some major changes to bruce's character.

people are calling for Bruce to break his no killing code, for him to never take on a new partner, for him to disband the family indefinitely etc.

theres obviously a lot of varying opinions on these issues. but i just want to throw in my two cent.

before anything happens: we should all note that it will anything that occurs will have a very lasting impace.

take Batman breaking his killing rule for example. for over 60 years Batman has remained true to his rule. despite any circumstances he has not broken the rule in-continuity. if he does so now, it is irreversible. i'm not taking about irreversable that it cant be retconned or anything like that. what i mean is that all of the stories in the past which have truly pushed bruce to the limit but shown him staying strong and never killing will be more or less invalidated. take the Killing Joker for example. one of the most well known stories in existence. Bruce's refusal to kill the Joker and commissioner Gordon's telling him not to do so speak volumes about bruce's character and what he means as a hero.

so everyone who calls for bruce to start killing should really consider one thing before proceeding with their arguments: so many times in the past, bruce has remained true to his guns and never crossed the line. if he did so now it would feel like a sign of weakness rather than a rational thing to do.

#2 Edited by JonSmith (3988 posts) - - Show Bio

The man was put through the ringer by his worst enemy, watched everyone he held dear, including his surrogate father, be threatened and possibly horribly maimed. Directly following that, his adopted wayward son actually WAS maimed and disfigured, in his own home no less, and now his true son DIED at the hands of one of the few women Batman loved.

Frankly, Batman or not, if he snaps over this, I'll write it down as justified and call it a day.

#3 Posted by SupBatz (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty much agreed with the orginal post. Batman's had plenty of justification to kill in the past. But he's never crossed the line. A lot of people call that ridiculous and irrational. But I truly think it's one of the most inspiring things about Batman. And if he really ever does cross the line I will feel very disillusioned with Batman and DC. He's made it about 70 years without killing. If he decides now is the time, despite the circumstances, it'll feel 100% completely wrong.

#4 Posted by RustyRoy (10892 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

The man was put through the ringer by his worst enemy, watched everyone he held dear, including his surrogate father, be threatened and possibly horribly maimed. Directly following that, his adopted wayward son actually WAS maimed and disfigured, in his own home no less, and now his true son DIED at the hands of one of the few women Batman loved.

Frankly, Batman or not, if he snaps over this, I'll write it down as justified and call it a day.

I agree with this. I'm not saying he should kill every enemy but if he doesn't avenge his son then he'll be no man. And Talia and Ra's are terrorists,they've done worse to the world than joker did. Most of the best fictional stories whether they be sci-fi ,fantasy or any other, they reflect our society in someway. Thats why TDKR, Watchmen are one of the most memorable stories. Its time for Batman comics to go in a bold new direction.

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#5 Posted by Avenger85 (1602 posts) - - Show Bio

It's about time Batman finally snapped

#6 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

Pretty much agreed with the orginal post. Batman's had plenty of justification to kill in the past. But he's never crossed the line. A lot of people call that ridiculous and irrational. But I truly think it's one of the most inspiring things about Batman. And if he really ever does cross the line I will feel very disillusioned with Batman and DC. He's made it about 70 years without killing. If he decides now is the time, despite the circumstances, it'll feel 100% completely wrong.

While it's true that Batman has been pushed far in the past, he just lost his son. No, lost would be putting it kindly. In infinite crisis he almost killed Alexander Luthor when he thought he had killed Dick. The only reason he didn't was because Dick showed up and stopped him. He also was prepared to beat the Joker to death in Hush after he shot Tommy Elliot. That time Gordon and Catwoman stopped him. In other words, while he has shown incredible restraint he can't always hold himself back.

Despite it feeling rather silly to put people in jail only so they can break out and repeat their crimes, I am usually impressed by Batman's ability to not kill those who deserve it. He's said it himself how easy it would be for him to kill but instead he strays from that path and I can respect that. However, this is different. If he does not avenge his son then he is even less of a hero than one who casually kills villains.

#7 Posted by SupBatz (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@gettogaara said:

@SupBatz said:

Pretty much agreed with the orginal post. Batman's had plenty of justification to kill in the past. But he's never crossed the line. A lot of people call that ridiculous and irrational. But I truly think it's one of the most inspiring things about Batman. And if he really ever does cross the line I will feel very disillusioned with Batman and DC. He's made it about 70 years without killing. If he decides now is the time, despite the circumstances, it'll feel 100% completely wrong.

While it's true that Batman has been pushed far in the past, he just lost his son. No, lost would be putting it kindly. In infinite crisis he almost killed Alexander Luthor when he thought he had killed Dick. The only reason he didn't was because Dick showed up and stopped him. He also was prepared to beat the Joker to death in Hush after he shot Tommy Elliot. That time Gordon and Catwoman stopped him. In other words, while he has shown incredible restraint he can't always hold himself back.

Despite it feeling rather silly to put people in jail only so they can break out and repeat their crimes, I am usually impressed by Batman's ability to not kill those who deserve it. He's said it himself how easy it would be for him to kill but instead he strays from that path and I can respect that. However, this is different. If he does not avenge his son then he is even less of a hero than one who casually kills villains.

You're right, Bruce has come very close in the past to killing people. But despite the circumstances he never has. I like to think that in cases such as the ones you mentioned, where someone intervenes and apparently stops Bruce from crossing the line, that Bruce would've stopped himself at the last minute. I truly believe that the most inspiring thing about Batman is that he will not kill. I feel that the ending of Arkham City put it perfectly. When Joker accidentally makes Batman drop the antidote to the virus that is killing him. And Batman says that, despite his earlier taunting of Joker, that even after every horrible thing Joker has done, he still would have saved him.

It's for that reason that I would be completely turned off if Batman did kill those responsible for Damian's death.

I disagree that not avenging Damian would make him less of a hero. Since Damian came into Bruce's life, Bruce has been teaching Damian that murder is not acceptable. And it seemed like Damian was really beginning to understand that up until the point when he died. If Bruce decided that now is the time to kill for justice it would completely invalidate every moral Bruce tried to instill in Damian since they met.

This is a very difficult situation. I do see what you're saying about Bruce seeming unheroic if he does not kill to avenge Damian. But I honestly believe that him sticking to his guns and not crossing the line is the most noble thing he can do. He should definitely come close. He is human. And he is in a dark place right now. I can see him coming very close to actually killing at this point but turning away at the last minute upon realizing that if the roles were reversed he would not want Damian to avenge Bruce in this way/

#8 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz: Honestly, I'm pretty convinced that if he hadn't been stopped by Gordon he would've killed Joker in Hush. He went as far as fighting Selina and knocking her out. He was thinking clearly and was more than ready to kill him that night. The only reason he stopped was because Gordon had just as many reasons to kill Joker and still talked him down. The other case is more debatable but he had to reflect on himself afterwards because he himself believed that he was about to cross that line.

While I understand and agree that for Bruce to kill despite constantly teaching Damian the opposite would be wrong, in my eyes it is more wrong if he simply let's the culprit go or gives them a beating like he does to any other criminal. Under The Red Hood had one of the best discussions on the subject at the end of the novel. Todd says that he should have killed Joker and Batman replies by saying all he ever wanted to do was kill him but if he went down that path he couldn't come back. Todd's reply was that he wasn't talking about anyone else, just the Joker because he separated them. That's around my thought.

I don't expect or want Batman to turn into someone like the Punisher, who kills every villain who crosses his path. If I wanted that I wouldn't be a fan of Batman. However there comes a time when things need to be done and people need to temporarily forego their morals. Or even lose them through pure rage. Just imagining from the standpoint of a father, if you see your 10 year old son practically mutilated and know who's responsible how can you not go after them?

#9 Posted by SupBatz (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@gettogaara: In the context of that story, I can see it going that way. But I just cannot see Batman actually going that far. It just feels like something that just wouldn't happen unless it was some sort of strange Elseworlds kind of comics.

That moment at the end of Under the Red Hood was really great. Definitely one of Batman's most powerful speeches.

And I do agree with you. This is a pretty difficult situation. It would not be right for Bruce to just move on and not avenge Damian in some way. Just throwing his killer in jail really wouldn't cut it. But killing him seems like going too far. I wish I was more clever and could think of a more suitible retribution that could keep everybody happy but I'm at a loss. The most I could see, as I said before, is Bruce coming really close to crossing the line before realizing at the last minute that this is not who he wants to be and that it would go against his memory of Damian and how he's grown since they met.

Like you said earlier, this really puts DC in an awkward position. I'm really hoping right now that Morrison has just been B.S.ing us and that his run on Batman, Inc will end with Damian taking a nice bath in the Lazarus Pit or something like that... It's really just starting to dawn on me that this may be the very last we see of Damian... :/

#10 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

No killing no matter WHAT!

#11 Posted by srk12 (84 posts) - - Show Bio

Killing is a limit that Batman should not cross. It is his defining characteristic and it should never be tarnished, no matter what happens. That said, if the villains were ever in a dangerous situation, I would be perfectly fine with Batman adopting the 'Begins' approach. Just because you can't kill someone doesn't mean that you have to save them. Also, it would be interesting if Batman employs psychological torture of some kind and breaking the villains by spirit and mind without killing them.

#12 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@srk12 exactly! the last line of your post! completely agree! Bats can still go crazy without killing dammit!

#13 Posted by gettogaara (164 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz: I know what you mean. It's hard to picture Batman actually killing a person but he's just been pushed further then ever before so we aren't sure how he'll react. If he's ever going to cross that line, wouldn't the death of his son be what pushes him over? It also depends on the writer. Morrison for example may have Batman lose it and go on some sort of murderous rampage while Snyder has him blaming himself over anyone else.

I'm also interested in how he'll react once he finds out who Damian's killer was. I didn't read Batman Inc Pre New 52, does he know already?

Yeah, I'm really hoping for Damian to be alive too. That would solve all of the problems. If Morrison is actually planning to keep him dead then in a way he's like an evil genius. He's taking his character out so no one else can write him without bringing him back to life which would break New 52's policy on not resurrecting people. Then he's set Batman up in a position that no matter what he does, people will be pissed. If he kills then people will be upset saying that Batman is not a killer. If he doesn't then people will be upset saying Bruce is a bad father. Then he completely overshadowed DOTF basically making the whole event pointless as well as making Batman and Robin change their entire story line. He just screwed the Bat family over in one issue.

#14 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Grant Morrison an evil genius, playing with our emotions, a true writer.

Respect!

#15 Posted by darkman61288 (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN: Grant Morrison the man should have Johns job.

#16 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

theyre both doing a good job where there at imo..

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