Problems with Snyder's Batman run -- In Pictures

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Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

I've made it pretty apparent since the court of Owls that I don't like the way Snyder writes the character. Instead of just talking about story arcs or actions, I've decided to show key panels from all of the 17 comics that highlights the problems and issues I have. I would be interested to see if people agree or disagree in general or with specific panels.

Without further ado....

The first issue I have is with the 0 issue. Snyder has introduced a Red Hood gang, invalidating Jokers most well known and I thin liked origin story. Instead of the red hood being an unknowing patsy used by a gang of criminals, it was now a group of master criminals with each one being a red hood. The main problem I have with this is..why do it? Change for the sake of change? Would this story not have worked equally well with criminals with a different name?

This really annoyed me. Instead of becoming the worlds greatest martial artist and detective by training obsessively for 11 years, he managed to do it all in 4. I think this is almost as bad as Green Arrow on Smallville, who managed to perfect his unbelievable archery skills in just a few months on an island. I know that it is not Snyder's fault that DC introduced the 5 year thing, but it is certainly Snyder's fault for choosing to implement it in this way.

This is just a personal dislike on my part. They have made Tim into a genius spoiled brat at a private school, cocky and disrespectful. Where is the middle class tim who deduced who Batman was and that he needed help?

Aside from Dick and Tim now essentially being the same age, I don't like that Dick sees the bat signal. When Dick was a kid, Batman should have been operating as a myth....there should not have been any bat signal. A very minor quibble.

I found this quiet frustrating though.Dick was Bruce's adopted son (yes, he was a ward first) and the person Bruce is/was probably the closest too in many ways. Here, he doesn't even trust him....why would Bruce test Dick in this way? It didn't make sense.

I just thought this was odd, not bad. Hasn't it been established for a while now that Bruce's cape allows him to glide? Why would he use a hang glider with all the advanced technology at his disposal? A throwback to earlier stories?

This was so irritating! Bruce is the worlds greatest detective...why would he lend any credibility to an "investigation" he did as a kid....before he met Henri Ducard or knew anything about crime fighting. It doesn't matter how smart of a kid he was, this just doesn't make sense, and makes Bruce seem arrogant and incompetent.

Batman should not be this easy to capture, especially by a foe as low on the rung as a talon. Keep in mind the Bat Family had no trouble dealing with Talons, yet here he can creep up undetected, seemingly without a struggle and get captured? Is this Batman?

Aaaand this is what Batman is reduced to. The character is famous for his will power and mental control. Able to resist mind washing techniques, drugs, toxins, keep calm and figure a way out....always observing and investigating, looking for a weakness. Instead here he has his hands over his ears, something a 5th grader would do. Really?

This isn't to do with Snyder, more to do with Capullo.What is this? Half the time his art is terrible, scratchy and overly exaggerated. Although, it's mainly the scratchiness that kills it. Someone get this man an eraser.

More change for the sake of change. Why screw with the bat that gave him his inspiration? Just to show how scary owls are? Fail.

Showing more of a poor relationship between the two. Was there really no easier way to see the inside of Dick's tooth or alert him to his new secret origin?

Speaking of his new secret origin....ugh. Why make it so Dick was meant to be a talon, that he escaped his destiny. Why? Why screw with Haley's Circus like that? It adds nothing to the story, rewrites continuity yet again and..for what? Just another way to show how big and scary the court of owls are? Changing things like this to cement your claim to fame in the New 52 universe is not good writing.

The Worlds Greatest Detective, dismissing and destroying evidence.

This is maybe nitpicking, but I find it annoying how easy Batman is to capture. Yes, he is human, but he is well above other humans. Other humans like Lincoln should not be able to simply throw a net on him.

This was just ridiculous.

Is Batman seriously incapable of finding some of Lincolns DNA? He was in hospital for god's sake. How hard did he try?

Joker is not a superhero. Joker should not be able to kill 20 police officers in their police station without using poison or something. If you make Joker superhuman, you're writing him wrong.

Batman knew Joker was recreating his previous crimes. Batman knew Joker has a fondness for binary compunds, re The Man Who Laughs. Batman failed to even consider the possibility that the officers were already at risk. Batman is sloppy.

As above, given his experience he should have done a blodo test or something on Gordon. Instead...he offers to take him to a bunker. Why? Why not ensure he is OK at the moment? When the villains whole thing is to have already gotten to the victim, wouldn't you check if that is exactly what happened?

More Batman failing to be prepared and easily captured. Also, what the hell is with Joker's outfit and why was it never explained?

So despite having no reason to believe what he is seeing on the monitors is real, despite the family being captured but not in immediate harm, despite the police being moments away, Batman obliges Joker, sits happily in the electric chair as asked just so he can be taken prisoner. He had no reason to sit in the chair, it's idiotic. Why would he do this? More of Batman being written as a fool.

"Hi, my name's Bruce Wayne, although you might know me as Batman. Did you happen to leave this card in my secret Bat Cave by any chance?" -- Bruce revealing his identity to Joker is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen in any Batman comic. The argument that he knew Joker wouldn't care doesn't make sense, at all. Was this even thought out?

#1 Posted by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

Capullo's art is excellent and Joker set up traps for the entire Bat family plus Harley, so he's wearing a mechanics outfit. It should've been self-explainable.

#2 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shotgun: Capullo's art is all too often scratchy. When it's good it's very good,but that's about half the time. The mechanics outfit is stupid. Joker always sets traps, its part of his character, he doesn't need a costume change to reflect that.

#3 Posted by Batnandez (511 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo: I like his art, my only issues are Snyder's endings.

#4 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

Capullo's art is amazing.

#5 Posted by MrShway88 (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Still love Synder

#6 Edited by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

I think someone's looking for things to be upset about.

#7 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@roboadmiral:

So, we're blaming things that are DC's fault on Snyder now? The five year thing was not his idea. Every single writer was stuck with that time frame, that's all they got because that's when the heroes all have to start showing up.

I'm sorry, what? I acknowledge above that it is not Snyder's fault that he has to deal with the 5 year thing. It's certainly his fault for throwing year one out the window. 5 years is pretty pathetic.

I will concede that the Talon captured Batman too easily.

Good.

As for Batman's freakout, though, the man's only intake for a week was heavily drugged water. At that point it doesn't matter what kind of tolerances you've built up, you're tripping your balls off.

My biggest problem with that issue is we didn't see how he got there. We go straight from him being captured easily to him being in full on crazy mode. A descent into craziness showing him resisting would have worked wonders.

The demonic looking Batman, also part of the tripping. It's not supposed to be real, it's metaphorical.

Well, duh. I just think it was out of place. That was a criticism of the art though, not the writing.

I think someone's looking for things to be upset about.

I've been pretty upset since the New 52 started. Yes, something are nitpicky and don't matters. What does matter is how incapable Batman is being written. On the podcast Cory and Sara talked about how they liked this because he is fallible. There is a big difference between fallible and incompetent.

#8 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

I've made it pretty apparent since the court of Owls that I don't like the way Snyder writes the character. Instead of just talking about story arcs or actions, I've decided to show key panels from all of the 17 comics that highlights the problems and issues I have. I would be interested to see if people agree or disagree in general or with specific panels.

Without further ado....

The first issue I have is with the 0 issue. Snyder has introduced a Red Hood gang, invalidating Jokers most well known and I thin liked origin story. Instead of the red hood being an unknowing patsy used by a gang of criminals, it was now a group of master criminals with each one being a red hood. The main problem I have with this is..why do it? Change for the sake of change? Would this story not have worked equally well with criminals with a different name?

If I remember correctly the redhood always worked like this, the leader had the redhood but he also had goons too, the only change is that the goons now have red hoods

as for further changes, I think is better to wait for how this story gets developed in the future before giving judgement on it now

This really annoyed me. Instead of becoming the worlds greatest martial artist and detective by training obsessively for 11 years, he managed to do it all in 4. I think this is almost as bad as Green Arrow on Smallville, who managed to perfect his unbelievable archery skills in just a few months on an island. I know that it is not Snyder's fault that DC introduced the DC thing, but it is certainly Snyder's fault for choosing to implement it in this way.

This is not Snyder's problem, this is a problem that comes from whoever was the IDIOT who thought that a 5 year old timeline was a good idea and then made a ton of contradictions with Morrisonsrun

this is is a huge problem, but it has more to do with the entire DC Editorial and Batman editors rather than Snyder's run alone, cause you much as well make the opposite argument that Morrison has the same problem for the opposite reason.

This is just a personal dislike on my part. They have made Tim into a genius spoiled brat at a private school, cocky and disrespectful. Where is the middle class tim who deduced who Batman was and that he needed help?

I actually approve of this, Tim has always been the smart robin, nothing wrong with making him smart like this, and besides this panel was written by James Tynion not Snyder

Aside from Dick and Tim now essentially being the same age, I don't like that Dick sees the bat signal. When Dick was a kid, Batman should have been operating as a myth....there should not have been any bat signal. A very minor quibble.

... not sure i follow the problem with this one

first i can understand why now Dick Jason and Tim kind of form part of the same generation but not necesarily are from the same age

as for the batsignal, if i remember correctly the batsignal incontinuity was established during The Man Who Laughs by Ed Brubaker which places it around his second year as batman, this was hardly a problem then, it is barely a problem now

I found this quiet frustrating though.Dick was Bruce's adopted son (yes, he was a ward first) and the person Bruce is/was probably the closest too in many ways. Here, he doesn't even trust him....why would Bruce test Dick in this way? It didn't make sense.

when Bruce was wanted for murder Tim was the first to ask him if he did it or not, didnt made me think bad of him as a character then and this neither.

I just thought this was odd, not bad. Hasn't it been established for a while now that Bruce's cape allows him to glide? Why would he use a hang glider with all the advanced technology at his disposal? A throwback to earlier stories?

...

this one is tricky

the cape allowing him to glide is something that mainly comes from the nolan movies, but it is a good point on why something like that hasnt yet been implemented in comics

yeah he has used hand gliders before like on Year One but i guess this is a good point

This was so irritating! Bruce is the worlds greatest detective...why would he lend any credibility to an "investigation" he did as a kid....before he met Henri Ducard or knew anything about crime fighting. It doesn't matter how smart of a kid he was, this just doesn't make sense, and makes Bruce seem arrogant and incompetent.

I think that was the point, not really that he was incompetent but that he really didnt want to believe that the court existed, and he was wrong, that was a huge part of that arc

Batman should not be this easy to capture, especially by a foe as low on the rung as a talon. Keep in mind the Bat Family had no trouble dealing with Talons, yet here he can creep up undetected, seemingly without a struggle and get captured? Is this Batman?

this one is more of a problem with editorial

exactly how strong and skillful should a talon be like?, i dont think that was something that was well done by the other creative teams of other batman books

I guess the point is that yes, a talon should had been able to capture bruce but also take into consideration that he tried more than once and failed a couple of times, and then we have other talons like the one on Batgirl who used a completely different style of assassination and she is just taken out by being thrown off a ledge, and then the one on B&R who was beheaded by Damian, while BoP needed the whole team to defeat only one of them.

in context of only the batman book this doesnt matter but in the context of the batman U it just shows the incompetence of the editors at hand.

Aaaand this is what Batman is reduced to. The character is famous for his will power and mental control. Able to resist mind washing techniques, drugs, toxins, keep calm and figure a way out....always observing and investigating, looking for a weakness. Instead here he has his hands over his ears, something a 5th grader would do. Really?

Batman #5 is by far one of the best batman comics ever made. maybe one of the best comics ever made period, i will not even dignify this complain with a real answer

This isn't to do with Snyder, more to do with Capullo.What is this? Half the time his art is terrible, scratchy and overly exaggerated. Although, it's mainly the scratchiness that kills it. Someone get this man an eraser.

just like the other commenters said, Capullo is just awesome and this scene was excellent, it was suppose to be an exaggerated portray of batman

More change for the sake of change. Why screw with the bat that gave him his inspiration? Just to show how scary owls are? Fail.

this is more of a literary license from snyder to symbolise the power of the owls against gotham and not necesarily that Snyder is making a retcon of anykind

I can make exactly the same argument for the old bat scene from Batman: The Return from Morrison

Showing more of a poor relationship between the two. Was there really no easier way to see the inside of Dick's tooth or alert him to his new secret origin?

yeah ok this could had been done better

Speaking of his new secret origin....ugh. Why make it so Dick was meant to be a talon, that he escaped his destiny. Why? Why screw with Haley's Circus like that? It adds nothing to the story, rewrites continuity yet again and..for what? Just another way to show how big and scary the court of owls are? Changing things like this to cement your claim to fame in the New 52 universe is not good writing.

there is nothing really negative about this, is not like the Haley circus was used that often, here he is introducing a new element into continuity by using an already existing one, its the same thing that Morrison did on his run as well as Geoff Johns for GL

The Worlds Greatest Detective, dismissing and destroying evidence.

nitpick

This is maybe nitpicking, but I find it annoying how easy Batman is to capture. Yes, he is human, but he is well above other humans. Other humans like Lincoln should not be able to simply throw a net on him.

this one i wouldnt concider a nitpick, you do have a valid point but on the other hand is not really that important in this point

This was just ridiculous.

well, its comics

Is Batman seriously incapable of finding some of Lincolns DNA? He was in hospital for god's sake. How hard did he try?

... ok this is a good point, i approve your complain

Joker is not a superhero. Joker should not be able to kill 20 police officers in their police station without using poison or something. If you make Joker superhuman, you're writing him wrong.

I keep hearing this complain a lot and it just misses the entire point of the scene

Snyder didnt wrote: Joker enters the police station and kills 20 people, end scene

THATS NOT WHAT HAPPEN

we see the joker, the lights goes out and something happens, BUT WE CANT SEE WHAT

did Joker killed 20 people using his own hands, you dont know that, no one knows

maybe he did it, maybe he had an assistant, maybe he wasnt even in the room, the point of the scene is that you have to see all the dead bodies and wonder

Did Joker did that?

that sole idea is what gives power to that scene and the entire arc, you really dont know if Joker did all of the things that he did alone or not, but the end result is that he is alone at the end

is like the opening scene in The Dark Knight, did Joker stole a bank on his own and alone, technically the answer is yes

Batman knew Joker was recreating his previous crimes. Batman knew Joker has a fondness for binary compunds, re The Man Who Laughs. Batman failed to even consider the possibility that the officers were already at risk. Batman is sloppy.

...

not sure exactly what is your complain here cause i really cant see an scenario in which he could had prevented this with what he knew at the time, you are not considering the preparation of the joker.

As above, given his experience he should have done a blodo test or something on Gordon. Instead...he offers to take him to a bunker. Why? Why not ensure he is OK at the moment? When the villains whole thing is to have already gotten to the victim, wouldn't you check if that is exactly what happened?

nitpick, why the hell would he take a blood sample at this moment

More Batman failing to be prepared and easily captured. Also, what the hell is with Joker's outfit and why was it never explained?

again is not that Batman wasnt prepared for the joker, it all comes down to the fact that the joker was actually prepared for Batman this time

as for why wasnt the joker's outfit explained

...

honestly i dont know and i never thought about it

#9 Edited by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

It sounds to me that most of these complaints are all related to the New 52 in general, a couple times saying "Why change continuity for the sake of change?" THATS EXACTLY WHAT THE NEW 52 IS ABOUT. Change for the sake of change. All pre New 52 is basically out the window OR can be changed in whatever way. We see it in all the books with every character, did this happen? did that Happen? Maybe but probably not the exact way it was previously written. if we didnt change continuity it would NOT be the New 52 that the EDITORS and CREATIVE officers have taken the liberties of creating and setting up the framework. Seriously its time to get over the fact that all of year one is probably not in New 52 continuity to a T. I love Hush, Long Halloween Dark Victory but it why is it wrong or "bad writing" if Snyder doesnt include them in the New 52 continuity. Their Fictional STORIES that are still available to be enjoyed (i love them) rather than used as a blueprint to Batman's history.

My second response is it also seems like you dont like Snyder writing Batman as getting his butt kicked a lot. For me its refreshing, Snyder constantly pushes Batman to his max with him still feeling like this unstoppable badass. Too often we have seen writers write Batman as never being able to fail, or be defeated. In my opinion some of the best stories is when we see a hero fail and struggle and be able to somehow find a way to come out of it, and thats what Snyder does. I disagree that he makes Batman Incompetent, I literally never felt that way once when I was reading Court of Owls, and only one time during DOTF.

"Batman #5 is by far one of the best batman comics ever made. maybe one of the best comics ever made period, i will not even dignify this complain with a real answer"- Totally agree with this guy.

Your complaints about Capullo totally subjective like most art so I cant say thats wrong. What I can say is Capullo is widley recognized as one of the best artists today and numerous, websites, reviews, Magazines and other artists and thousands of fans constantly praise his work. And no they are not "paid off" to say those things.

Finally I would like to counter with a question, If you dont like Snyders Batman, who writes Batman better? Morrison? Jeph loeb? Neal Adams Frank Miller? Id like to hear what you think.

#10 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad I can't quote your replies, because the quoting system here sucks, so I'm just going to address each point on a separate line.

Where did you get the idea the red hood gang worked like that? From what I remember, the red hood was a patsy to take the fall for non red hooded criminals.

The 4 year thing is without a doubt Snyder's fault. As I said, the 5 year thing is DCs constraint, but it was up to Snyder how he worked within that.

Yes, Tim was always smart, but there is a difference between deducing Batman's identity and backtalking a principle.

Tim didn't know Bruce as well as Dick and Bruce knew each other.

I don't think the cape allowing him to glide mainly comes from the movies, I'm sure I've seen that being used in comics before TDK.

He is a detective. If he refuses to investigate something because he doesn't like the idea that it might be true, that is incompetence

A talon capturing Batman is not a problem with editorial. Talons being portrayed inconsistently is yes, but it's purely a Batman problem that Batman was captured that easily..

Batman #5 is a waste of time. I'm glad you liked it though.

How the hell is it a nitpick when batman DESTROYS EVIDENCE? Hell, it could have had the DNA he regretted not having on it.

The joker did kill people with his own hands. It's pretty clearly what happened and is referenced that way later on. If you think there was more to it, well that sir is called a fanwank.

You don't seem to have understood my last 3 complaints and seem to defend them by saying the joker was overprepared. The thing is, Joker was doing exactly what he had done before, so Batman should have known better. If Joker had never been known to use a binary compound poison...then it would have been brilliant storytelling and Batman couldn't have known. Which is what it was the first time that plot device was used. This time though...it just makes Batman look stupid.

@SavageDragon said:

It sounds to me that most of these complaints are all related to the New 52 in general, a couple times saying "Why change continuity for the sake of change?" THATS EXACTLY WHAT THE NEW 52 IS ABOUT. Change for the sake of change. All pre New 52 is basically out the window OR can be changed in whatever way. We see it in all the books with every character, did this happen? did that Happen? Maybe but probably not the exact way it was previously written. if we didnt change continuity it would NOT be the New 52 that the EDITORS and CREATIVE officers have taken the liberties of creating and setting up the framework.

That's fine, but then they should stop the CS about how Batman's history hasn't changed at all. Also, the New 52 was not put into motion because of "change for the sake of change". That's never a worthwhile reason to justify anything.

Finally I would like to counter with a question, If you dont like Snyders Batman, who writes Batman better? Morrison? Jeph loeb? Neal Adams Frank Miller? Id like to hear what you think.

All of the above. I started reading Batman each month while Morrison was on, so the other authors I've only read certain stories or trades. Still, almost everything I've read from those authors I've liked better than Snyder.

#11 Posted by modunhanul (410 posts) - - Show Bio

Capullo's art is awesome.

#12 Posted by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

From your retort above I can see theres no changing your mind to any other way even though people have brought up valid points on how your initial posts were based on point of view, preference and nitpicks. That being said your entitled to your opinion. I personally think Snyder is the best writer at DC right now, and his Batman (Court of Owls/Night of owls) is one of the top 5 best Batman stories of all time. His Black Mirror story is also one of my favorite Dick Grayson stories ever told. Furthermore I think Snyders Batman stories crush Grant Morrisons stories with the exception of RIP which I think is the same level of Snyder's work. To eachs own.

#13 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

@arnoldoaad I can't quote your replies, because the quoting system here sucks, so I'm just going to address each point on a separate line.

Where did you get the idea the red hood gang worked like that? From what I remember, the red hood was a patsy to take the fall for non red hooded criminals.

The 4 year thing is without a doubt Snyder's fault. As I said, the 5 year thing is DCs constraint, but it was up to Snyder how he worked within that.

Yes, Tim was always smart, but there is a difference between deducing Batman's identity and backtalking a principle.

Tim didn't know Bruce as well as Dick and Bruce knew each other.

I don't think the cape allowing him to glide mainly comes from the movies, I'm sure I've seen that being used in comics before TDK.

He is a detective. If he refuses to investigate something because he doesn't like the idea that it might be true, that is incompetence

A talon capturing Batman is not a problem with editorial. Talons being portrayed inconsistently is yes, but it's purely a Batman problem that Batman was captured that easily..

How the hell is it a nitpick when batman DESTROYS EVIDENCE? Hell, it could have had the DNA he regretted not having on it.

The joker did kill people with his own hands. It's pretty clearly what happened and is referenced that way later on. If you think there was more to it, well that sir is called a fanwank.

You don't seem to have understood my last 3 complaints and seem to defend them by saying the joker was overprepared. The thing is, Joker was doing exactly what he had done before, so Batman should have known better. If Joker had never been known to use a binary compound poison...then it would have been brilliant storytelling and Batman couldn't have known. Which is what it was the first time that plot device was used. This time though...it just makes Batman look stupid.

- I know it really sucks

- but red hood was the leader, he still had a gang, by adding a rotating leader they had a perfect alibi

- again, I think this problem is way bigger than Snyder, im not saying you are wrong, it is a huge problem, but Snyder is not the main culprit

- well it was a corrupt principle, i thought it was much better than Tim on TT, and i totally want to see more of this Tim

- Tim didn't know Bruce as well as Dick and Bruce knew each other. I have no idea what you mean by this

- yeah it has but only on very short distances and nothing like in the nolan movies, i think the nolan cape can replace this glider and actually it should replace it, but bottomline is that he has used a glider before and there is nothing bad about this, is just that it can be done better

- it talks more about his state of mind rather than his skill as a detective

- It wasnt that easily in my respect

- he is not a real detective, is not like he needed that paper to convict the court, by default every single thing he touches is already considerate contaminated evidence, and finally it doesnt even matter he just shrug a piece of paper, this is a nitpick

- you dont see him kill anyone, you cant see him kill anyone, anything that you can say about that scene is nothing more than your own interpretation about that scene, this is why i really hate this complain you cant proof anything here and the attempt to prove it is futile

-... let me put another example, when he knows where the joker is going to be to poison the water supply and kill a ton of people, Joker had already killed those same people, thats not a mistake on Batman's part

you could just as well complain that joker used acid and poison

#14 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Dude, we clearly disagree on stuff, but I don't know how you can not have problems with some stuff.

Batman throwing away evidence is ridiculous. It isn't a nitpick at all, it's one of the more important complains I made. He may well have had Lincolns DNA on it. Why the hell would he discard it and not analyze it?

I don't have a problem with the principal being corrupt, I have a problem with Tim being cocky and arrogant. "Look at me I'm so smart!" That's not the Tim I came to look forward to reading.

How do you have no idea what I mean when I say that Tim did not know Bruce as well as Dick did? Is it not self explanatory?

Red Hood was not the leader of the gang, he was the patsy. Can you let me know which issues show Red Hood as a leader?

It's also very silly for you to suppose/fanwank that there were other people in the police station. Why would that not have been made apaprant to audience? It is impleied and supported by what we see that it was only Joker, anything else is just your speculation.

Batman knew joker was recreating crimes, and didn't stop to examine and look for signs of crimes Joker had done previously. A major misstep.

Can a mod please move this to the Batman forum?

#15 Posted by havoc1201 (521 posts) - - Show Bio

everyone gets so made that Snyder changed Year one a bit but before Frank Miller it was different as well so change happens, also A LOT of the complaints on the pics are pretty tiny stuff, Tim being in a prep school that was Lodbell choice he has creative control on Tim not Snyder.

#16 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

@arnoldoaad: Dude, we clearly disagree on stuff, but I don't know how you can not have problems with some stuff.

Batman throwing away evidence is ridiculous. It isn't a nitpick at all, it's one of the more important complains I made. He may well have had Lincolns DNA on it. Why the hell would he discard it and not analyze it?

I don't have a problem with the principal being corrupt, I have a problem with Tim being cocky and arrogant. "Look at me I'm so smart!" That's not the Tim I came to look forward to reading.

How do you have no idea what I mean when I say that Tim did not know Bruce as well as Dick did? Is it not self explanatory?

Red Hood was not the leader of the gang, he was the patsy. Can you let me know which issues show Red Hood as a leader?

It's also very silly for you to suppose/fanwank that there were other people in the police station. Why would that not have been made apaprant to audience? It is impleied and supported by what we see that it was only Joker, anything else is just your speculation.

Batman knew joker was recreating crimes, and didn't stop to examine and look for signs of crimes Joker had done previously. A major misstep.

Im pretty sure he had analyzed before shrugging it, and if he didnt, what was there to analyze?, look either way this in no way affects the plot at all, its a nitpick and not even a good one

I know a lot of people pretty much hate Tim because of the new 52 but im not one of those, i actually think he is ok in TT, but here, is much much better than that, there is nothing wrong with this since he was pretty arrogant before War Games. NEVERTHELESS, like i said before this was made by James Tynion not Snyder

what are you complaining about with that in relation with anything that Snyder has done?

Killer Joke, yes he was a patsy but he didnt act alone, he had goons on site, though the goons were the real masterminds and they died on that flashback, but really, i understand your complain, but i think it is way too early to jump on it since we only had half the story in issue 0, maybe that wasnt the joker, some people even think that is the riddler, my point is there is a lot of needed info here.

ok please put scans where you see clearly that Joker killed all of those people with his own hands alone.

oh yeah, YOU CANT, true, i cant prove that there was someone else but i dont need to do it, i just need to prove that you cant prove that he was alone and thats enough to blow apart your complain

you say that it was implied, well that doesnt mean anything cause still you would only be basing your complain in an assumption, not from the actual comic

And finally I still dont understand your final complain at all, it was clear to me that he did exactly what he was suppose to do with the information that he had

#17 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

everyone gets so made that Snyder changed Year one a bit but before Frank Miller it was different as well so change happens, also A LOT of the complaints on the pics are pretty tiny stuff, Tim being in a prep school that was Lodbell choice he has creative control on Tim not Snyder.

I think the thing with Year One is that before it...there wasn't really a concrete origin. We knew the story, but it wasn't as cohesive or detailed. The thing is, Year One is just so damn good, that if you're going to change it, then it should be for good reason, and the change should be equal or better. Changing his time away training to 4 years is in no way better, it's ridiculous.

A lot of my complaints, maybe half of them are nitpicky and not substantial (although not the throwing away evidence one!), but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

#18 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

everyone gets so made that Snyder changed Year one a bit but before Frank Miller it was different as well so change happens, also A LOT of the complaints on the pics are pretty tiny stuff, Tim being in a prep school that was Lodbell choice he has creative control on Tim not Snyder.

The Bat that inspired Batman was eaten by an Owl,it could've maybe just MAYBE worked if the Court of Owls were actual villains with actual names,faces,personalities etc as it stands they were merely fodder and as such tainting year:one to build up such crappy villains is not justified,and I thought year:one was pretty meh,but that scene/panel was pure brilliance.

#19 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

@havoc1201 said:

everyone gets so made that Snyder changed Year one a bit but before Frank Miller it was different as well so change happens, also A LOT of the complaints on the pics are pretty tiny stuff, Tim being in a prep school that was Lodbell choice he has creative control on Tim not Snyder.

I think the thing with Year One is that before it...there wasn't really a concrete origin. We knew the story, but it wasn't as cohesive or detailed. The thing is, Year One is just so damn good, that if you're going to change it, then it should be for good reason, and the change should be equal or better. Changing his time away training to 4 years is in no way better, it's ridiculous.

If anything i share your sentiment, i have seen a TON of changes in DC because of the new 52 that have completely ass-raped a ton of great stories for absolutely no reason(i.e. Gail's Batgirl)

and I agree that changing Year One in any way is a very delicate thing to do but you must also understand that there has been continuity problems with Year One too, like the changes to Catwoman's Origin, and i dont mean only in the new 52 even before that there was problems, Frank Miller didnt include Barbara Gordon in Year One cause he completely forgot about her, which was dealt with other writers later, Some writers even wrote batman and Jim Gordon with the idea that James Jr NEVER existed because of many different reasons, because it would date the timeline for example.

I also disagree with you when you say that Snyder changed Year One, chapter 0 doesnt really stated an exact timeline, if anything Year one or atleast most of it still happen in the way that it did, and even if there were many changes, how big are there, we dont know what else he changed.

and also another thing that i give to snyder in comparison to other writers, he is very respectful when he makes a reference like this, he has said it himself that Batman Year One is one of his favorite Batman comics, now compare that to how Gail Simone butt-f*cked the killing joke, a book she has said herself that she HATED, or even the changes she she made to Year One to the Gordon family.

my point is, if anything i agree with your sentiment, I do care about batman year one and TLH and DV and TKJ and NML and many other great sagas that are now in peril thanks to the new 52, but Snyder is not the cause much less the bigger problem

A lot of my complaints, maybe half of them are nitpicky and not substantial (although not the throwing away evidence one!),

he shrug a piece of paper that was completely unsubstantial for the plot, is a minuscule nitpick, let it go

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

#20 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

#21 Edited by Manbehindthewires (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo: It's interesting to see your issue by issue write-up, but it was incredibly flawed. I thought I'd do a panel, by panel retort, but so many others already have! You've misunderstood or missed out on a lot of Batman and Robin lore, both new and old. I get the impression that you don't like the new 52 continuity, or the idea that things may have happened differently, but at the same time, judging by your arguments, you don't seem to have invested a lot of time in the pre-52 books...so why complain about change? This Batman is clearly an homage to many of the Batman's before him but with one key difference, he's a tiny bit more fallible. Not to a huge degree, but enough that his enemies can exploit him, and turn him against himself and it makes for really interesting reading.

I get the impression you want a perfect god-like batman that doesn't make mistakes, doesn't do things that make you question his reasoning and is 100% good...no good Batman writer ever has written him like that. The fact that Batman is none of these things is the reason people like him!

#22 Posted by John Valentine (16323 posts) - - Show Bio

Cry me a river.

This series is one of the best in publication today. It's certainly better than almost everything (maybe even everything) Marvel publishes, and probably better than most of DC's stuff too.

#23 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

Cry me a river.

This series is one of the best in publication today. It's certainly better than almost everything (maybe even everything) Marvel publishes, and probably better than most of DC's stuff too.

This isn't saying much.

#24 Posted by John Valentine (16323 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@John Valentine said:

Cry me a river.

This series is one of the best in publication today. It's certainly better than almost everything (maybe even everything) Marvel publishes, and probably better than most of DC's stuff too.

This isn't saying much.

Haha, haters gonna hate.

I like it and you know how much I love Morrison stuff. Batman Inc Vol. 2 is also stellar, IMO.

#25 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

#26 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

Well said!

@Manbehindthewires said:

@MuyJingo: It's interesting to see your issue by issue write-up, but it was incredibly flawed. I thought I'd do a panel, by panel retort, but so many others already have! You've misunderstood or missed out on a lot of Batman and Robin lore, both new and old.

I'm sorry, what? You;ve made a really silly assumption here. Batman is the only comic I read for a long time, and it is the only comic I've gone back and read as much as I can of. I know what I'm talking about which is why I find this version of Batman frustrating.

I get the impression that you don't like the new 52 continuity, or the idea that things may have happened differently, but at the same time, judging by your arguments, you don't seem to have invested a lot of time in the pre-52 books...so why complain about change?

Again, a really ridiculous assumption. I have no idea where you are getting this from, as my complaints are based purely off reading the previous Batman books. If the New52 was my introduction to the character I wouldn't have anything to complain about, because I wouldn't have anything to compare it to.

This Batman is clearly an homage to many of the Batman's before him but with one key difference, he's a tiny bit more fallible. Not to a huge degree

This is where you're wrong. He is not just far more fallible, but dumb. He mistakes he shouldn't when he should know better.

By the way, you may disagree with my opinion, that's fine, but please don't make unfounded assumptions about how familiar I am with the character. That's just silly.

#27 Posted by MuyJingo (1829 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@MuyJingo said:

he shrug a piece of paper that was completely unsubstantial for the plot, is a minuscule nitpick, let it go

It's not worth it for me to discuss this with you further if you can't see the significance of a detective throwing away evidence. Thanks for your replies though, it was a good discussion.

#28 Edited by germandinner (26 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo: I'll take a shot at this... I won't bother quoting your entire post. I'll separate each of my responses to each of your points in order by paragraph, but you should be able to piece together what paragraph is in response to what.

-I don't think it's a good idea to form too many opinions on the Red Hood gang stuff yet. We don't know where Snyder is taking things. What could very well happen to the gang is that it gets crushed by Batman's initial efforts in fighting crime and falls into obscurity, so that when sane-Joker puts on the Red Hood persona, Red Hood could still be relatively obscure image like you want it to be. We certainly know that the Red Hood gang isn't anywhere as important as the more traditional mobsters like Falcone, so it's understandable if they kind of are forgotten for a bit or fall into a new role when Batman crushes them. Regardless of any of that, what I'm trying to say is that we don't know where this is going. The zero issue ends with "to be continued in 2013" anyways. You're mainly complaining about change for change's sake, yet we don't even know what these changes are.

-He was away for 4 years, yes, but that doesn't mean he wasn't training all of his life, or, really, from the time when his parents died. He doesn't need to travel the world to study some of the things he does, so, it's less about condensing Bruce's entire training to only 4 years, but rather, narrowing his disappearance from Gotham down to 4 years.

-I believe that part with Tim was written by James T. Tynion IV, working off of the new Tim origin set up by Lobdell... so I don't know how you can blame Snyder for this one.

-The stuff with Dick seeing the Bat signal kind of falls back on what I said in my previous point, but, really, I kind of see the bat signal as adding to the Batman myth, as opposed to detracting from it, which seems to be your point. Regardless, the bat signal is revealed in Batman: The Man Who Laughs, which happens before Dick becomes Robin or any of that. Not sure if TMWL is still in continuity, but since it follows basically Batman and Joker's first major encounter, there are parts of it that I'm sure still fit into continuity.

-From my understanding, you seem to like a Batman who is more in line with Morrison's vision: one that is nearly perfect, if not completely perfect, in his detective work and superhero activities. Yet, you dislike Snyder here, for actually having Batman not listen to his emotions and take the more objective route of not trusting Dick when there's a small chance Dick could be behind it, whether it was from Dick's free will or he was mind controlled or something. This is perfectly in character for Batman, who doesn't trust anyone completely, and it falls into line with a Batman you prefer, yet you still really take issue with it? It comes off as contradictory to your following points. If Batman hadn't distrusted Dick and Dick had been the one behind it, perhaps because he was mind controlled, then you would have blamed Snyder for making Batman incompetent, I'm sure.

-I imagine his cape can help him glide (I think it happens in issue 10), but the glider here is for longer distances.

-Batman said in the same issue (issue 4) that he had checked up on the court since then and found nothing. He isn't just basing it off of what happened to him as a kid. Now, you can blame him for being incompetent and not finding the court later on despite being the world's greatest detective, but I think that lends to building the court up more as opposed to bringing Batman down. The court has been operating long before Batman, so it's understandable for them to be able to hide their activity so well, since they've been doing it since before Bruce was even in diapers.

-I can understand why you would take issue with this one. I think it's in character for these reasons, however: A) Batman is working off the fact that he believes that the court doesn't exist. If he would even entertain the possibility that the court exists, he would see it as him acting off his emotions and not looking at things objectively. Whether or not that is actually true is irrelevant, because at the end of the day, Batman's assuming the court doesn't exist and there's something or someone else behind all of this. Since he doesn't entertain the possibility that the court is real, he wouldn't expect a trained ninja to sneak up behind him and bust him through a wall. B) Batman is working off of little sleep. Sure, he's done that plenty of times before, and probably for longer periods of time, but you can't argue that Batman without sleep is just as good as Batman with sleep. C) He thinks he knows Gotham better than anyone. This has clearly been built up previously in Snyder's run, along with in Batman lore preceding this story. He doesn't just think that there isn't a pit leading into a maze right behind this wall, he knows there isn't a pit leading into a maze right behind this wall. Of course, he's wrong. But then we kind of fall into the whole argument about Batman being incompetent vs. the court just being that good, which I addressed above.

-I think there's a number of psychological factors behind Batman's demise in this issue that you're kind of missing. But before any of that, not only is Batman without any food while in the maze, Batman's only source of drink for a week is drugged water. I know he's good at resisting stuff like that, but, eventually, over a week's time, his godly diet can only do so much. So there's that to remember. But anyways, psychological factors. The maze represents the antithesis to Batman's entire mindset during Snyder's run, which, as I've said, draws from Batman stories from the past (Year One, TDKR, Knightfall, to name a few). Basically, Batman thinks Gotham is his city. He knows it better than anyone. The maze shows that he doesn't. It shows that the court is real. That its history is real. But more importantly, that Batman doesn't know everything about Gotham. That Gotham isn't his city. This strikes at his mindset so hard that it sends him into a state of denial. Now, once again... you'll say that makes Batman incompetent or something along those lines. But, that couldn't be any further from the truth. Batman thinking Gotham is his city is one of his greatest strengths. Why? It gives him confidence. It drives him. It's the source of the sort of Batman you like, the one that transcends a normal man's might and power or even a great man's might and power. It gives him the will to fight on, knowing that he's doing it for his city, so that his city doesn't produce another individual that causes the same tragedy that was his parent's death. The notion that Gotham is his city is hugely important to Batman's persona. And the maze attacks that source directly. Batman breaking down is not only important to the story's themes, but it's also in line with the precedent set up by past Batman stories and in line with his character.

-Art is very subjective. A large majority of people love his art. Even those who didn't like it at first came to love it. I don't think we can ask for much more from an artist.

-That was a symbolic vision, not literally what happened. The issue even starts off with saying that people close to death see a vision, that doesn't necessarily reveal what happened in real life, but rather it reveals secret truths. The secret truth in this instance is that Batman's been mistaken about his dominance in Gotham for a very long time. The vision works excellently because it works off of previous Batman lore, but it doesn't change a thing, merely using it to build on the points of this story's major ideas.

-I don't agree that it showcases another example of Snyder's poor writing of their relationship, but I do think that Bruce doing that in a highly impractical manner was kind of silly.

-I don't see how this changes anything. It doesn't contradict any information revealed in the past. It simply adds to it. It isn't change for change sake. It's adding to previous Batman lore, working off of it to put the new ideas Snyder's presenting into perspective. That's what a good Batman writer does: looking towards the past and respecting it by not changing it fundamentally but rather revealing what was already there all along. I'm sure you'll take issue with this explanation, but what it really does, and I don't think you can disagree, is take away a lot of objectivity from your analysis. If you don't like what's been added, that's fine. But there isn't anything objectively wrong with what Snyder's done here. You personally don't like it, but it doesn't mean it's wrong.

-The evidence is already contaminated from Batman touching it. Crushing the paper isn't going to ruin what has already been ruined. Now, you could say, "Well, Batman shouldn't have contaminated the evidence in the first place then by touching it like that." But then, you're pretty much taking the scene out of context. Batman finding out what is written on the paper is much more important than DNA checking for Lincoln's finger prints or something. At this point in time, it isn't even evidence for him to use, because he doesn't know Lincoln's back story.

-I agree that Batman shouldn't have been captured so easily, but at the same time, a normal human wouldn't have been able to get out of that net so easily, either. Batman let himself be captured and remained in a weaker position on purpose, to let Lincoln talk and reveal as much information as possible. He could have escaped at any time, but he did so at the end when he knew that Lincoln was done talking.

-I thought the zombie-Talons were kind of ridiculous, too. Oh, and the man who dresses up as a bat and runs around the city fighting crime. That's a little ridiculous, too. Once again, here, you come off as contradictory. You want Batman to be capable of ridiculous feats that go beyond normal human capability, which would involve him getting into situations that go beyond what normal humans usually get into, yet you dislike it when Snyder does just that.

-I would imagine the court covered up Lincoln's DNA at the hospital, seeing how they were still working with Lincoln at that point in time. The court has an interest in hiding Lincoln's DNA, of course, because the whole deal is that they may have tricked Lincoln into believing he's Bruce's brother. The court can't let Bruce find Lincoln's DNA to confirm this one way or the other.

-We don't see Joker in action here. We don't know what he's doing. He's in the shadows. We saw earlier how he had people working with him, helping him out. This could very well be one of those cases. Simply put, we don't know. We're led to believe that Joker did this all himself because that's what Joker wants us to believe. But it doesn't mean it's true. Joker's a notorious liar.

-Seeing how Batman did actually figure out that the officers were at risk, but by then it was too late, doesn't really make him sloppy as much as one step behind the Joker, which sort of seems in line with previous Joker stories (Killing Joke, Morrison's Arkham Asylum).

-I imagine that he would have checked Gordon's blood at the bunker, where there would be better equipment. Seeing how Batman knows that Gordon wouldn't want to go into hiding after what happened to all those police, it makes sense for Batman to predict that Joker knows this too, and how Joker might use Gordon's stubbornness against him. Getting Gordon into safety becomes a much higher priority then checking to see if Gordon's blood with whatever Batman might have with him, instead of checking Gordon's blood in the bunker where the results could be much faster and accurate.

-Once again, I think it's more of Batman letting Joker talk, seeing how Batman got out of the trap rather easily and quickly when he needed to. Nonetheless, I agree that Batman probably should have made it a little tougher for Joker to get him into that position.

-Batman sat into the chair for the following reasons: A) the people Joker dressed up as superheroes were in immediate danger, and Batman sitting in the chair was the only way to appease Joker into not killing them. B) He doesn't know if the monitors' images are real, but that doesn't mean he could just assume they're not. Once again, he has to act on the side of caution and assume his family is in danger. Considering this is the Joker he's dealing with, that's the best case of action. If he didn't sit in the chair and just blatantly assume the images aren't real, he would be putting the family into greater danger and underestimating the Joker: under estimating the Joker is something you should never, ever do. That was set up in the very first issue of the arc with Damien's dialogue.

-Finally, the last one. Bruce told Joker he's Batman in this scene, you're right. But the problem is, Joker already knows or already could have known. Telling Joker here doesn't make any difference. Joker has already been in or could have been in the cave for any amount of time. That was explained in issue 15, I think. If Joker wanted to know, Joker would know. Batman here in this scene is testing why Joker doesn't care: it's because Joker only cares about Batman, not Bruce Wayne, which was the whole reason why Bruce wasn't in Batman costume in this scene. It was to see Joker not caring about Bruce Wayne, to confirm Bruce's theory. Regardless, telling Joker he's Batman doesn't risk anything at all. It isn't stupid. Because Joker either already knows or could have know.

I apologize if I skipped over any of your points on accident. If you need any clarifications, just ask.

#29 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

haha nice arguments but some are a far stretch. you can find problems with any story or any artist nobody is perfect especially with the volume of content they churn out.

#30 Posted by TDK_1997 (15007 posts) - - Show Bio

Capullo has an amazing artwork.

Online
#31 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

#32 Posted by snyderman567 (160 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks like someone loves to nitpick

#33 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

#34 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

#35 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh... It pained me to read this. First of all, Capullo's art is the best I've seen, it really appelas to me. The scratchiness helps. Also, Batman has been REBOOTED. He's been turned into an arrogant character, which I kind of like since it shows he still has faults. Basically, I disagree with everything said in this thread.

#36 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

So you think Joker can own Jason,Dick,Tim,Barbara,Damian,GCPD,The Suicide Squad and Batman in a matter of hours while also screwing with the Titans and Outlaws? I'm sorry but that's stupid,it doesn't make the villain look smart,it just makes the heroes look like victims of a slasher flick.Name just one new trick used by the Joker,all I saw was SPLOSIONS,and everyone tripping.

#37 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

So you think Joker can own Jason,Dick,Tim,Barbara,Damian,GCPD,The Suicide Squad and Batman in a matter of hours while also screwing with the Titans and Outlaws? I'm sorry but that's stupid,it doesn't make the villain look smart,it just makes the heroes look like victims of a slasher flick.Name just one new trick used by the Joker,all I saw was SPLOSIONS,and everyone tripping.

you really cant count every single one of the other attacks on the batman family as Snyder's fault

the idea is simple, Joker knew his identities and planned a huge trap for all of them to neutralize them and capture them, whatever if those traps were good or not it depends of the respective creative teams

personally i thought that most of them were ok, except Batgirl, really, he wants to marry her, so he calls her at a skate ring then send her to a church, THATS STUPID!

but with Nightwing he turn all of his friends at haley circus against him

he captured Jason and Tim and forced them to fight agaisnt each other

with Damian he lured him to a trap and forced him to fight a guy that looked like batman

all of those were very well thought out

the Outlaws and Titans team up was just an extra

#38 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

So you think Joker can own Jason,Dick,Tim,Barbara,Damian,GCPD,The Suicide Squad and Batman in a matter of hours while also screwing with the Titans and Outlaws? I'm sorry but that's stupid,it doesn't make the villain look smart,it just makes the heroes look like victims of a slasher flick.Name just one new trick used by the Joker,all I saw was SPLOSIONS,and everyone tripping.

you really cant count every single one of the other attacks on the batman family as Snyder's fault

the idea is simple, Joker knew his identities and planned a huge trap for all of them to neutralize them and capture them, whatever if those traps were good or not it depends of the respective creative teams

personally i thought that most of them were ok, except Batgirl, really, he wants to marry her, so he calls her at a skate ring then send her to a church, THATS STUPID!

but with Nightwing he turn all of his friends at haley circus against him

he captured Jason and Tim and forced them to fight agaisnt each other

with Damian he lured him to a trap and forced him to fight a guy that looked like batman

all of those were very well thought out

the Outlaws and Titans team up was just an extra

Except Joker never cared for their identities,the final issue made that clear.I hated how easily he was able to capture Tim(did they even bother showing how?) and Dick who I felt got miserably owned.The Damian one I can buy and what about the Suicide Squad? Joker should've been a bloody stain on the wall after screwing with those guys.

#39 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

So you think Joker can own Jason,Dick,Tim,Barbara,Damian,GCPD,The Suicide Squad and Batman in a matter of hours while also screwing with the Titans and Outlaws? I'm sorry but that's stupid,it doesn't make the villain look smart,it just makes the heroes look like victims of a slasher flick.Name just one new trick used by the Joker,all I saw was SPLOSIONS,and everyone tripping.

you really cant count every single one of the other attacks on the batman family as Snyder's fault

the idea is simple, Joker knew his identities and planned a huge trap for all of them to neutralize them and capture them, whatever if those traps were good or not it depends of the respective creative teams

personally i thought that most of them were ok, except Batgirl, really, he wants to marry her, so he calls her at a skate ring then send her to a church, THATS STUPID!

but with Nightwing he turn all of his friends at haley circus against him

he captured Jason and Tim and forced them to fight agaisnt each other

with Damian he lured him to a trap and forced him to fight a guy that looked like batman

all of those were very well thought out

the Outlaws and Titans team up was just an extra

Except Joker never cared for their identities,the final issue made that clear.I hated how easily he was able to capture Tim(did they even bother showing how?) and Dick who I felt got miserably owned.The Damian one I can buy and what about the Suicide Squad? Joker should've been a bloody stain on the wall after screwing with those guys.

that he never cared doesnt mean that he didnt knew and took advantage of it

as for SS, i completely forgot about that, though he mostly just kidnapped Harley, take into consideration that Harley escaped on her own before so that kind of says a lot of the capacity of the SS

#40 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol nice marketing.

"Problems with Snyder's Batman run." Not gonna read that.

"Problems with Snyder's Batman run--IN PICTURES--" @#!$ yeah I'm gonna read that!

#41 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@arnoldoaad said:

but the main problem I have which is recurring is how easily he gets captured, and how incompetent he has become as a detective. I also think it's a glaring shame that the relationship between Dick and Bruce has been lessened to the extent it has.

he was easily captured on Morrisons Run too and he was trick by Jezebel Jet who got really close to her, he couldnt see the multiple signs of his enemies coming, and if he knew that the big bad guy had something to do with the Black Casebook then by your own assesment he was very very incompetent to not see Dr Hurt coming.

He did see the Black Glove coming. He was never tricked by Jezebel Jet. He knew who she was the whole time. He wasn't sure how the Black Glove were going to get him, he knew that more likely than not they'd gotten to him years earlier (which they did), so he prepared himself for the eventuality that he would be taken down. He assessed the situation and created a perfect strategy to combat it. That's the opposite of incompetence. Snyder's Batman is just an arrogant douche who believes that if he hasn't found a threat it doesn't exist.

And even if he didn't it still wouldn't be incompetence,the Black Gloves assault on Batman was years in the making.

well the joker attack was a year in the making isnt that fair then?

Execution,everything comes down to it and here the Joker's attack was just non sense,it was unoriginal,uninspired and cliched.Batman had absolutely no reason to struggle.

So you think Joker can own Jason,Dick,Tim,Barbara,Damian,GCPD,The Suicide Squad and Batman in a matter of hours while also screwing with the Titans and Outlaws? I'm sorry but that's stupid,it doesn't make the villain look smart,it just makes the heroes look like victims of a slasher flick.Name just one new trick used by the Joker,all I saw was SPLOSIONS,and everyone tripping.

you really cant count every single one of the other attacks on the batman family as Snyder's fault

the idea is simple, Joker knew his identities and planned a huge trap for all of them to neutralize them and capture them, whatever if those traps were good or not it depends of the respective creative teams

personally i thought that most of them were ok, except Batgirl, really, he wants to marry her, so he calls her at a skate ring then send her to a church, THATS STUPID!

but with Nightwing he turn all of his friends at haley circus against him

he captured Jason and Tim and forced them to fight agaisnt each other

with Damian he lured him to a trap and forced him to fight a guy that looked like batman

all of those were very well thought out

the Outlaws and Titans team up was just an extra

Except Joker never cared for their identities,the final issue made that clear.I hated how easily he was able to capture Tim(did they even bother showing how?) and Dick who I felt got miserably owned.The Damian one I can buy and what about the Suicide Squad? Joker should've been a bloody stain on the wall after screwing with those guys.

that he never cared doesnt mean that he didnt knew and took advantage of it

as for SS, i completely forgot about that, though he mostly just kidnapped Harley, take into consideration that Harley escaped on her own before so that kind of says a lot of the capacity of the SS

Harley was one of their own,Joker=wanted criminal and how did he even know where to find them?

#42 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

Harley was one of their own,Joker=wanted criminal and how did he even know where to find them?

Well, he didnt care about them, he care about Harley

But you do make good point, the thing is, this is not a problem for Snyder's Batman, it was up to Adam Glass to come up with how the joker found Harley

#43 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Harley was one of their own,Joker=wanted criminal and how did he even know where to find them?

Well, he didnt care about them, he care about Harley

But you do make good point, the thing is, this is not a problem for Snyder's Batman, it was up to Adam Glass to come up with how the joker found Harley

Ofcourse a lot of the problems with how the characters were presented was definitely not Snyders fault directly but he should've coordinated the event properly cause at the end of the day it's his big story.

#44 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34016 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Edited by Manbehindthewires (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

please don't make unfounded assumptions about how familiar I am with the character. That's just silly.

Only made them based on what you wrote. I've never known somebody to say something like " Batman is the only comic I read for a long time, and it is the only comic I've gone back and read as much as I can of. I know what I'm talking about"...when they haven't even picked up a copy of The Killing Joke, one of the most popular batman books of all time and the origin of the Red Hood and Joker...leading you to the assumption that Joker was originally the one and only Red Hood and not a front used by a gang of criminals? Seriously, that's fundamental Batman knowledge.

And where did you get your understanding of Bruce's relationships with Dick and Tim from? They've been pretty spot on to the other comics...and even the animated series. Have you ever picked up ANY of Nightwings earlier books?

Batman not being easy to capture and outsmart again is laughable; he underestimates his enemies; it has been the axis of so many story's from Nightfall, to Dark Knight, to the Swamp Thing Saga, to the Adam West stuff on TV, it bleeds through the entire franchise...if even the monkeys at WB can see that, why can't you!? Apparently you "know what you're talking about", and those guys sure don't!

Again, if you've "read as much as you can"...did you miss out on key events like Long Halloween? Because you seem to really underestimate the joker too. To claim that Joker couldn't kill 20 cops without "gas or something" is ridiculous, this is a man who can sneak up on and infiltrate the likes of Falcone, Dent, Gordon, anyone he wants. You don't think he can set up a 20 man execution with the lights off? That's a party trick to him.

Batman not being able to withstand capture (again and again it surprises you) and unable to withstand drugging, brainwashing and interrogation etc? THE CULT!? NO!? These are HUGE, character building books we're talking about, and you seem to have overlooked all of them to put together this petty, nitpicking attack on Snyder and Capullo...

So yes, its silly to assume how much you've read; you may have read a lot of Batman...just none of the big important stories that everyone, even a casual Batman reader would be aware of. I think it'd be sillier for someone like yourself, writing a profile comparison like yours, to exclude knowledge of the likes of Killing Joke, The Cult, The Long Halloween, Knightfall, Dark Knight, Other Bat-family tie-ins and anything from the TV/Movie-verse and still claim that the current Batman story isn't a true reflection. Now that's just silly.

#46 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Harley was one of their own,Joker=wanted criminal and how did he even know where to find them?

Well, he didnt care about them, he care about Harley

But you do make good point, the thing is, this is not a problem for Snyder's Batman, it was up to Adam Glass to come up with how the joker found Harley

Ofcourse a lot of the problems with how the characters were presented was definitely not Snyders fault directly but he should've coordinated the event properly cause at the end of the day it's his big story.

again, that would be fault of the editor

just because SS, Catwoman and Batgirl had terrible tie-ins doesnt mean Snyder should be the one that fixed them

#47 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

I respectfully disagree. For Batman to be perfect and win literally nonstop is boring. The Court of Owls pushed him to his limits, and the JOker story pushed his family to the limits. Yes, not every story is perfect, and I have seen my fair share of flaws but for the most part his run has been impressive. Capullo is subjective as an artist, if you dont like him or his art, well that is your own taste. I personally loved what he has done, but I was getting tired of seeing Joker all the time so Im glad this tory is over.

Batman isnt perfect, and that is the way I like him. TO show his flaws, and for him to overcome them, in a dramatic and suspenseful way makes a good story. That really is all I wanna say, because in the end we have different tastes and you have your opinions and I have mine

#48 Posted by Onemoreposter (4075 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo: You're nit picking.

That said

I agree with almost all of your nit picks (besides Capullo's art which I love).

I wouldn't say Snyder is a bad writer. Actually, as I think he's technically good. His dialogue flows well, his stories are (mostly) cohesive, he seems to have a pretty well balanced 3 act structure he likes to use, and most importantly I think he genuinely likes the Batman and the characters that surround him.

That said

I think it's the overall stories he's trying to tell that are majorly flawed because the main ideas behind them are majorly flawed. His stories seem to all pivot around a central idea that the characters we know are not the characters we know. This is a pretty common thing to do in comics but not to the extent that Snyder takes it. Usually, with other writers and stories, we might find out something new about the character that changes the overall way we look at them. With Snyder, he just seems to sit down and write drastic new characterizations with little to no explanation why.

I can imagine Snyder saying, "These characters act like this now. Why the dramatic changes? No real reason. Its just how I like it. Deal with it." I realize too, this in the new 52 and Snyder has a lot of creative control to redefine aspects of the Bat-universe. In fact I'd wager that he's encouraged to do as much.

At the end of the day there are writers you like and writers you don't. Snyder is one we don't. We'll just have to "deal with it". Who knows, several years down the road we might come back and say, "hey in retrospect, these stories are actually not so bad."

#49 Posted by entropy_aegis (15457 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@entropy_aegis said:

Harley was one of their own,Joker=wanted criminal and how did he even know where to find them?

Well, he didnt care about them, he care about Harley

But you do make good point, the thing is, this is not a problem for Snyder's Batman, it was up to Adam Glass to come up with how the joker found Harley

Ofcourse a lot of the problems with how the characters were presented was definitely not Snyders fault directly but he should've coordinated the event properly cause at the end of the day it's his big story.

again, that would be fault of the editor

just because SS, Catwoman and Batgirl had terrible tie-ins doesnt mean Snyder should be the one that fixed them

But Snyder used both Harley and Batgirl in his own story,Catwoman okay excused but the other 2 definitely not.

#50 Posted by SmashBrawler (5977 posts) - - Show Bio

The funniest part is that you forgot the biggest problem.

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