Justifying Batman #17 (Spoilers)

#1 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

I posted earlier that #17 was "utter garbage", but being a Bat-Fan I've decided to try to justify it as much as possible. First of all, it really wasn't a TERRIBLE issue when you think about it. The ending with the "Ha" was briliant imo, best part of the issue. It's art and coloring was great as well. The main issues I've read and heard tend to be the platters and the ending itself. Truthfully, we were left with next to nothing after this hyped up arc, except for a little emo-ness from the Bat Family. But let me ask you this: Is that the point? What if this story was really built up to the sky and then let fall, just because it was all a JOKE? It's not out of the realm of possibility, he is The Joker after all, and this seems like something Snyder would do. Right down to the blank book and everything, it was basically all a joke. At least this is what I tell myself, so there's at least some sensible reason as to why the story was a let down. Your thoughts? And yes, I am the one who made all those "Alfred is the Joker" threads. And you have to admit, I was right to an extent. :)

#2 Edited by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

I was just thinking that the best part of Snyder's Joker is the flies following him.

Because when you think about the very last page, it makes you realize that Joker is still in the cave.

That's why the fly is there.

#3 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

It's all a joke.

And the Joker needs to prove it.

#4 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 Exactly! I don't see why people can't see this. I thought the ending was brilliant.

#5 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I do agree that Joker needs to be less serious about killing people altho Joker could've skinned more people so maybe Joker has become lazy.

#6 Posted by cameron83 (7528 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

I posted earlier that #17 was "utter garbage", but being a Bat-Fan I've decided to try to justify it as much as possible. First of all, it really wasn't a TERRIBLE issue when you think about it. The ending with the "Ha" was briliant imo, best part of the issue. It's art and coloring was great as well. The main issues I've read and heard tend to be the platters and the ending itself. Truthfully, we were left with next to nothing after this hyped up arc, except for a little emo-ness from the Bat Family. But let me ask you this: Is that the point? What if this story was really built up to the sky and then let fall, just because it was all a JOKE? It's not out of the realm of possibility, he is The Joker after all, and this seems like something Snyder would do. Right down to the blank book and everything, it was basically all a joke. At least this is what I tell myself, so there's at least some sensible reason as to why the story was a let down. Your thoughts? And yes, I am the one who made all those "Alfred is the Joker" threads. And you have to admit, I was right to an extent. :)

I agree completely with this...And yes,I think that it was,as damian said,a sick joke.This seems like something the joker would do.I concur with your entire post@InnerVenom123 said:

I was just thinking that the best part of Snyder's Joker is the flies following him.

Because when you think about the very last page, it makes you realize that Joker is still in the cave.

That's why the fly is there.

Damn...I never thought of that.

#7 Posted by serpent222 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually thought it was really good. I feel like the people reaming it are just let down that no one got killed or maimed. But really, we really all should have known that going in.

#8 Posted by JohnnyGat (1573 posts) - - Show Bio

Honeslty I don't think it needs to be justified as much as some people make it out. It was a good issue that suffered from a cliché end confrontation which would have been fine had the quality of the rest of the arc not have been better than the cliché of the confrontation. I loved the Ha ending I loved that Joker really did nothing to the family in the end. It's just that that one confrontation will always stick out for me.

#9 Posted by Humanoid (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

I was just thinking that the best part of Snyder's Joker is the flies following him.

Because when you think about the very last page, it makes you realize that Joker is still in the cave.

That's why the fly is there.

Yeah, I figured the fly scene was supposed to be like a did he or didn't he venture into the cave? Does he know who Batman is? And yes, he does. It kinda lost it's charm when you're told that Batman told the Joker his secret identity. Of course the Joker can venture into your cave if you tell him where it is and who you are.

Or maybe it's just the idea that Joker is always with Batman. I had a lot of problems with the ending of this crossover, but this wasn't really one of them. Ha.

#10 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123: It's not necessary Joker's physically in the cave. The fly could indicate metaphoricaly that Joker will always be there to bug him and that he'll never stop. Of course, Joker could still be in the cave physically, but I'm leaning toward the symbolism. At a certain time, when I find that time, I'll develop my thoughts concerning the fly (as a symbol) / Joker (manifestation of what the symbol represents) analogy. I think Snyder says something really interesting here.

#11 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

I was just thinking that the best part of Snyder's Joker is the flies following him.

Because when you think about the very last page, it makes you realize that Joker is still in the cave.

That's why the fly is there.

Oh shit I read it twice so far and I just realized that's what that meant.

I saw some idiot post somewhere that Joker's soul was in a fly and it brainwashed me.

Wow that's actually a brilliant ending.

#12 Posted by mbembet (219 posts) - - Show Bio

scott snyder is a joke

#13 Posted by Humanoid (132 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joelislegend said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

I was just thinking that the best part of Snyder's Joker is the flies following him.

Because when you think about the very last page, it makes you realize that Joker is still in the cave.

That's why the fly is there.

Oh shit I read it twice so far and I just realized that's what that meant.

I saw some idiot post somewhere that Joker's soul was in a fly and it brainwashed me.

Wow that's actually a brilliant ending.

You seriously thought Jokers soul was in the fly?

#14 Posted by mhanuroth (208 posts) - - Show Bio

it wasn t a brilliant ending i would have been better if joker tells that was all a joke like arkham asylum that he said aprils fools that would have been genius but what are you doing now is overthimking

#15 Posted by Avenger85 (1931 posts) - - Show Bio

The fact that all of us are discussing it, and there's so much shock and outrage, shows exactly how much 'Garbage" it is haha.

This is what was INTENDED. We've had so many comic book characters die, that it's lost it's shock value now. This is what they wanted, to shock us with the fact that no individual dies, but the death of the family bond between them.

#16 Posted by Mighty Thorion (797 posts) - - Show Bio

I never thought anyone would die in this arc. However, what may have "died" is the trust between Bruce and the rest of the Bat - characters. The psychological damage done by the Joker to the members of the Bat-family will no doubt last for many months to come and as Bruce said towards the end of the issue, "What did he say to you in the dark?"

The "Ha" and the flay at the end indicate that one day the Joker will be back

#17 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@Phaedrusgr said:

@InnerVenom123: It's not necessary Joker's physically in the cave. The fly could indicate metaphoricaly that Joker will always be there to bug him and that he'll never stop. Of course, Joker could still be in the cave physically, but I'm leaning toward the symbolism. At a certain time, when I find that time, I'll develop my thoughts concerning the fly (as a symbol) / Joker (manifestation of what the symbol represents) analogy. I think Snyder says something really interesting here.

It's creepier to think of it physically. And that fits since Snyder's Batman is more horror oriented.

But symbolism for the fly is totally valid.

#18 Posted by Trevel8182 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

My problem with the ending was that nothing meaningful happened that doesn't mean someone has to die but when you name a story after one of the most earthshacking stories in the bat mythos and then nothing meaningful happens you kinda have the right to pissed.

#19 Posted by havoc1201 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked how the story really did explain the relationship between joker and batman how joker didnt care he was bruce wayne and how batman admits thats its not his moral code that keeps him from killing the Joker, all in all i think the aftermath of each character will be very interested bc the Joker told each one of them something and it has effected them so really we did get what the event implied it was the death of the family in one way or another. I am excetied to see what follows the arch. All in all i thought it was a great read

#20 Posted by Teerack (7078 posts) - - Show Bio

You know a story is good when you need to justify it. c:

#21 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@mbembet said:

scott snyder is a joke

Guess I'll believe you when you write something better than Batman, Swamp Thing and American Vampire.

#22 Posted by havoc1201 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@mbembet said:

scott snyder is a joke

Guess I'll believe you when you write something better than Batman, Swamp Thing and American Vampire.

QFT Snyder is a great writer his track record is amazing

#23 Posted by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at the guy who says Snyder is a joke. I usually don't respond to trolls but I had to respond to two people on G-man's review. They were just spewing garbage. Anyway I really like this conclusion. I really didn't think any pat characters were going to die and in the end I'm glad they didn't. It's weird to me that so many people are saying "noting happened" when so much handppened. SPOILERS: we saw that joker had been playing a huge joke on batman, he never intended to kill everyone but to place distrust among the members, the little book was blank, joker does know, but doesn't care who Batman is, we learned why he removed his face, we learned why it is that batman didn't kill joker. Granted many things could have and have been assumed for many years but it's not like nothing happened in this conclusion. We get a lot of wrap up and for god sakes people it's not like batman ends after this issue. Batman 18 and 19 and so on will have the seeds of these revaluations and repercussions in them. Everyone has their own opinion but just because I didn't like frank millers DKR doesn't mean I say it's trash. Some people are such trolls. Good thread btw.

#24 Posted by mhanuroth (208 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123: the flies is in there because joker rotten face fall off and went to the batcave

#25 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mighty Thorion said:

I never thought anyone would die in this arc. However, what may have "died" is the trust between Bruce and the rest of the Bat - characters. The psychological damage done by the Joker to the members of the Bat-family will no doubt last for many months to come and as Bruce said towards the end of the issue, "What did he say to you in the dark?"

The "Ha" and the flay at the end indicate that one day the Joker will be back

it also indicates that Joker still "won". It goes back to what he said in issue 16, as long as they live, you will always lose

#26 Posted by havoc1201 (518 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@Mighty Thorion said:

I never thought anyone would die in this arc. However, what may have "died" is the trust between Bruce and the rest of the Bat - characters. The psychological damage done by the Joker to the members of the Bat-family will no doubt last for many months to come and as Bruce said towards the end of the issue, "What did he say to you in the dark?"

The "Ha" and the flay at the end indicate that one day the Joker will be back

it also indicates that Joker still "won". It goes back to what he said in issue 16, as long as they live, you will always lose

also in #17 he says that he wins by living when batman says if he kills him then Joker wins but Joker said he really wins when he lives so again the joker wins

#27 Posted by redhoodnet (153 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the issue.

Every Fu**ing Page.

This was great storytelling. DC editorial was not going to let SS kill off Alfred or any other person in the bat family that has a monthly title. This story was a masterpiece of the Bat dealing with real insanity. The whole sequence of Bruce showing the card to Joker in Arkham was a all time great moment. Joker is crazy. He does not see the world like anyone else in the Bat-Universe. The whole idea that he can not even process the idea of Bruce Wayne is a defining moment in his history.

#28 Posted by JakeN7 (12738 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman: Well this sure is a far cry from what you said yesterday:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

Worst ending ever, it was total shit. I am no longer a fan Snyder, GTFO.

I loved it. Can't understand why people are being so hostile about it. I thought the fact that the trays ended up being nothing was annoying (albeit that is totally a Joker thing to do), and I would have liked to have seen more dialogue between the whole family and not just Batman and Joker (Tim and Jason had like one line each.) But, overall I thought the story was amazing and I can't wait to (hopefully) see Scott Snyder at Emerald City Comic Con in March (he'll be there, just not sure if I'm going to go yet) and congratulate him in person. I'm still a huge Snyder fan, and I think the universal acclaim from reviewers is well deserved.

Now we just have to wait for Batman Inc. #8 before Bat-Fans get to start complaining about something else (please don't do it Morrison! We can't take the death of Joker and Damian. It's too much! Damian is such a lovable little bastard. Two fan-favorite characters killed off within two weeks of each other? Say it ain't so!)

#29 Posted by MrShway88 (670 posts) - - Show Bio

@SavageDragon said:

Lol at the guy who says Snyder is a joke. I usually don't respond to trolls but I had to respond to two people on G-man's review. They were just spewing garbage. Anyway I really like this conclusion. I really didn't think any pat characters were going to die and in the end I'm glad they didn't. It's weird to me that so many people are saying "noting happened" when so much handppened. SPOILERS: we saw that joker had been playing a huge joke on batman, he never intended to kill everyone but to place distrust among the members, the little book was blank, joker does know, but doesn't care who Batman is, we learned why he removed his face, we learned why it is that batman didn't kill joker. Granted many things could have and have been assumed for many years but it's not like nothing happened in this conclusion. We get a lot of wrap up and for god sakes people it's not like batman ends after this issue. Batman 18 and 19 and so on will have the seeds of these revaluations and repercussions in them. Everyone has their own opinion but just because I didn't like frank millers DKR doesn't mean I say it's trash. Some people are such trolls. Good thread btw.

Thank you

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