If batman used lethal force?

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#1 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6186 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is among the best martial artist in DC already, but if he was willing to cross line and kill would he be number one would he be able to defeat Deathstroke,Lady Shiva, or even Karate Kid. With all his skills, resources, and genius intellect wouldn't he be an unstoppable anti hero?

#2 Edited by Lasiurus (89 posts) - - Show Bio

They did something like this on Earth-51. After Jason was murdered in that reality, Bruce took up arms, and started using murder to end crime, and used his strategic mind to succeed where others had failed. I don't think he'd be unstoppable completley, there's always some mega powerful reality warper, but for the most part, I imagine he'd do well.

#3 Edited by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

Y'know, I believe Batman himself once brought up a point about this sort of thing: The point was, HE'S FREAKING BATMAN. If he decided to kill somebody, like low level thugs and such, NO ONE WOULD KNOW UNLESS HE WANTED THEM TO.

#4 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

He'd be the Punisher in a Batsuit.

#5 Posted by mk111 (3141 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman killing is a scary thought. Bar Superman, who could stop him? Robin? LOL.

#6 Edited by TheHulk (802 posts) - - Show Bio

Then, he basically be male version of Huntress. Don't believe Hulk? Look.

#7 Posted by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

We would never have to hear the "then what separates us from them" speech ever again. God, I hate that speech. I don't think he would use guns, though. Guns aren't his style. They're too human, too common place. Anyone can kill people with a gun. A shadowy wraith that can kill twenty guys with its hands, that's scary.

#8 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

If Batman killed...then he'd just be any number of less memorable characters that do the same thing.

#9 Posted by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery: If that were the only thing that kept him relevant and distinctive, he would have lost relevance a long time ago.

#10 Posted by TheCannon (18800 posts) - - Show Bio

If he killed:

  1. He would be a much better character (though he's pretty cool right now).
  2. A lot of people in Gotham would die (Bane and Poison Ivy may give him trouble. Other than that, I can't think of any of his villains he can't kill)
  3. There'd be less stories to tell.

However, he wouldn't be unstoppable. He could probably kill any street levelers (unless there's someone I'm forgetting). But he wouldn't be unstoppable.

#11 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman would be so awesome if he killed people.

#12 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

If he killed:

  1. He would be a much better character (though he's pretty cool right now).

@bob808: I fail to see what about the act of murder makes a character inherently cooler.

#13 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

@End_Boss: Its cooler because if Batman killed a villain he would not have to deal with that villain again.

#14 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@roboadmiral: It's not the only thing that keeps him relevant and distinctive...but having Batman kill fundamentally changes many things about the character.

Non-lethal force is as much a part of the character as the bat symbol on his chest. How many stories (from Knightfall to Battle for the Cowl) have been done where a Batman that kills exists and, by juxtaposition is shown to be a pale imitation of a non-lethal Batman.

Part of Bruce Wayne's psychosis is that he feels too strongly. He's been waging an endless war on crime based on the guilt and trauma of his parent's death. After the death of Jason Todd, he clearly had a death wish, shouldering the weight of the loss (A Lonely Place for Dying). Were Bruce Wayne to kill, who knows where it would take him. All morality aside, he may enter a spiral of depression that there's no pulling out of.

#15 Posted by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery: Interpreting Batman's drive to save lives as an absolute, no exceptions no-kill code is a shallow interpretation. Batman exists to ensure that what happened to him is never allowed to happen to anyone else, but by failing to kill Gotham's most uncontrollable maniacs he is allowing their victims to die. This vapid interpretation of his motivating drive is self-defeating. That is not the action of a hero, that is the action of someone who values their own self-image above all else.

#16 Posted by TheHulk (802 posts) - - Show Bio

You know, Hulk heard Batman's rule against killing originally wasn't there in his early days.

#17 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6304 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808 said:

@End_Boss: Its cooler because if Batman killed a villain he would not have to deal with that villain again.

Then there'd be no villains left, and therefore no more Batman stories, and therefore, no more Batman.

Not killing the villains is probably a big part of what's kept Batman popular all these years. If he had to face a new villain in every single story, it'd probably be difficult to make a new character that was different from all the others. People like to see their favourite villains, and what new ideas they have to try and defeat Batman, so killing them off permanently would be a mistake.

#18 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@roboadmiral: Yes... you just described Batman. How he is. How MOST comic heroes are.

#19 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

like in a bad way way, ego like?

#20 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN: I don't understand the question.

#21 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808: Pretty much what Scarlotte said. His pledge to not kill is a defining cornerstone of the Batman, and more importantly, what kind of villain would the Joker be if Batman could just off him? He would have died in the first couple of stories, and we would have never got to know and love (to hate) him. Same goes for almost every Batman villain ever (save perhaps R'as Al-Ghul, due to possible Lazarus pit shenanigans).

#22 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

@End_Boss: refusing to kill people makes Batman weak.

#23 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808: Again, I disagree. Batman could easily kill any one of his rogues if he wanted to. How many times do you think he's desperately wanted to kill Joker? I'm sure every time he apprehends the guy it takes an incredible force of will to not kill him, but he manages it. Not because he's weak, but because he's strong. Because he needs to remain an incorruptible symbol for the people of Gotham, and he can't do that if he has blood on his hands, no matter whose it is.

#24 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5439 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCannon

If he killed:

  1. He would be a much better character (though he's pretty cool right now).
  2. A lot of people in Gotham would die (Bane and Poison Ivy may give him trouble. Other than that, I can't think of any of his villains he can't kill)
  3. There'd be less stories to tell.

However, he wouldn't be unstoppable. He could probably kill any street levelers (unless there's someone I'm forgetting). But he wouldn't be unstoppable.

@bob808

Batman would be so awesome if he killed people.

THIS 2X
#25 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

@End_Boss: Batman must learn to do what is necessary to get the job done.

#26 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14698 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808: Killing does not make you cool, killing is bad, remember that. It is one of the reasons why I think that Batman is a good character, because no matter what he will not cross that line, the day that Batman starts killing villains in the main continuity is the day that I stop reading comic books, it sets a standard that we should follow. I mean is this what society has come to, do we think that killing is okay now. I see some truth in Kingdom Come now.

#27 Posted by clonesaga2099 (96 posts) - - Show Bio

If Batman killed... his villains would be brought back to life a whole lot. I'm sure that DC doesn't want to have to come up with an excuse for a resurrection every time they want to use one of the iconic enemies of Batman. If he killed, we'd just get a whole bunch of 1-dimensional characters as enemies, since they'd be dead before they got a chance to be interesting.

#28 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

i meant that, did you describe him in a bad way? :)

#29 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

If he killed:

  1. He would be a much better character (though he's pretty cool right now).
  2. A lot of people in Gotham would die (Bane and Poison Ivy may give him trouble. Other than that, I can't think of any of his villains he can't kill)
  3. There'd be less stories to tell.

However, he wouldn't be unstoppable. He could probably kill any street levelers (unless there's someone I'm forgetting). But he wouldn't be unstoppable.

I disagree with this, but I really want to hear the reason why you think batman killing would make him a better character

#30 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@End_Boss said:

@bob808: Again, I disagree. Batman could easily kill any one of his rogues if he wanted to. How many times do you think he's desperately wanted to kill Joker? I'm sure every time he apprehends the guy it takes an incredible force of will to not kill him, but he manages it. Not because he's weak, but because he's strong. Because he needs to remain an incorruptible symbol for the people of Gotham, and he can't do that if he has blood on his hands, no matter whose it is.

this

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@bob808: Killing does not make you cool, killing is bad, remember that. It is one of the reasons why I think that Batman is a good character, because no matter what he will not cross that line, the day that Batman starts killing villains in the main continuity is the day that I stop reading comic books, it sets a standard that we should follow. I mean is this what society has come to, do we think that killing is okay now. I see some truth in Kingdom Come now.

and this, I dont see how people can think that the characters who brutally murder their enemies are cool anyway.

#31 Posted by AmazingWebHead (2567 posts) - - Show Bio

Picture the Punisher. Combined with Chuck Norris. On steroids. Now go change your shorts.

#32 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19 said:

@End_Boss said:

@bob808: Again, I disagree. Batman could easily kill any one of his rogues if he wanted to. How many times do you think he's desperately wanted to kill Joker? I'm sure every time he apprehends the guy it takes an incredible force of will to not kill him, but he manages it. Not because he's weak, but because he's strong. Because he needs to remain an incorruptible symbol for the people of Gotham, and he can't do that if he has blood on his hands, no matter whose it is.

this

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@bob808: Killing does not make you cool, killing is bad, remember that. It is one of the reasons why I think that Batman is a good character, because no matter what he will not cross that line, the day that Batman starts killing villains in the main continuity is the day that I stop reading comic books, it sets a standard that we should follow. I mean is this what society has come to, do we think that killing is okay now. I see some truth in Kingdom Come now.

and this, I dont see how people can think that the characters who brutally murder their enemies are cool anyway.

People who deserve to die should die. Batman should have slit the Joker's throat a long time ago.

#33 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael Keaton Batman was a killer and he was badass!

#34 Posted by tupiaz (2185 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808 said:

@End_Boss: Its cooler because if Batman killed a villain he would not have to deal with that villain again.

This is actually the problem Punisher has. You can not do many stories because it always ends the same. Punisher kills the bad guy. There is a few good stories for instance Grath Ennis’ Max Run but in general he got this problem. Always a new enemy that does do much for the character or work as a good protagonist. This was even a problem in Ennis run but got it to work pretty well. If Batman starts killing of Two-Face, The Joker, Riddler, and the rest of his rogue galary he as a character would lose a great deal.

@Crash_Recovery said:

@roboadmiral: It's not the only thing that keeps him relevant and distinctive...but having Batman kill fundamentally changes many things about the character.

Non-lethal force is as much a part of the character as the bat symbol on his chest. How many stories (from Knightfall to Battle for the Cowl) have been done where a Batman that kills exists and, by juxtaposition is shown to be a pale imitation of a non-lethal Batman.

Part of Bruce Wayne's psychosis is that he feels too strongly. He's been waging an endless war on crime based on the guilt and trauma of his parent's death. After the death of Jason Todd, he clearly had a death wish, shouldering the weight of the loss (A Lonely Place for Dying). Were Bruce Wayne to kill, who knows where it would take him. All morality aside, he may enter a spiral of depression that there's no pulling out of.

Agreed.

@roboadmiral said:

@Crash_Recovery: Interpreting Batman's drive to save lives as an absolute, no exceptions no-kill code is a shallow interpretation. Batman exists to ensure that what happened to him is never allowed to happen to anyone else, but by failing to kill Gotham's most uncontrollable maniacs he is allowing their victims to die. This vapid interpretation of his motivating drive is self-defeating. That is not the action of a hero, that is the action of someone who values their own self-image above all else.

Batman should be in Arkham. He cleary got issues.

#35 Posted by Kangaxx_54 (306 posts) - - Show Bio

There was a long discussion about no-kill codes being outdated on gen. discussion not long ago. It was an interesting thread, but I can't help wonder why everybody always points at the hero to be the one to kill the villain. Shouldn't it be up to the politicians to institute a death penalty (perhaps limited for extreme cases like the Joker? I read that several states has this kind of exceptional capital punishment), and the judges to decide where the line should be drawn? Sure, police officers can shoot to kill in extreme cases, but the thing is, Batman and co. are vigilantes. There's no one to judge them, to keep them in check. You could perhaps say that Batman is strong enough to keep himself in line, but this kind of decision shouldn't be up to the individual - it undermines everything that civilization is built upon.

I haven't read any Huntress comics, but there was an episode in season 1 of Justice League Unlimited where she is extremely close to killing a bad guy 'just because' he killed her parents. If everybody went around with that kind of eye-for-eye attitude, we'd end up with anarchy pretty fast. The only difference (ok, exaggeration, but still) between that bad guy and someone like the Joker is how many people they kill. When will they have killed so many people that the hero can call it an execution instead of a murder? 20 people or 200 or ???

So yeah, I'm very much against having Batman kill anybody. There's also the fact that he feels so very strongly about it. It's his decision not to kill, and who knows what it'd do to him if he abandoned that?

#36 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6304 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808:Batman catches criminals, and lets the law decide the punishment. If the law decides that someone deserves to die, they'll die.

#37 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@bob808:Batman catches criminals, and lets the law decide the punishment. If the law decides that someone deserves to die, they'll die.

Exactly. Thank you!

Batman puts these criminals in the hands of the Courts. He catches them because GCPD cannot. The Courts let them go/don't execute them. It's not Batman's responsibility. He already does more than enough.

#38 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@V_Scarlotte_Rose said:

@bob808:Batman catches criminals, and lets the law decide the punishment. If the law decides that someone deserves to die, they'll die.

Exactly. Thank you!

Batman puts these criminals in the hands of the Courts. He catches them because GCPD cannot. The Courts let them go/don't execute them. It's not Batman's responsibility. He already does more than enough.

The law can become corrupted. Only Batman can bring true justice and if that means he has to kill then so be it.

#39 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6304 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808:The only way he would kill would be if he himself became corrupted.

Killing isn't a good enough punishment. Criminals should be made to suffer for their actions. Being killed is an easy way out.

#40 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808 said:

@Eternal19 said:

@End_Boss said:

@bob808: Again, I disagree. Batman could easily kill any one of his rogues if he wanted to. How many times do you think he's desperately wanted to kill Joker? I'm sure every time he apprehends the guy it takes an incredible force of will to not kill him, but he manages it. Not because he's weak, but because he's strong. Because he needs to remain an incorruptible symbol for the people of Gotham, and he can't do that if he has blood on his hands, no matter whose it is.

this

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@bob808: Killing does not make you cool, killing is bad, remember that. It is one of the reasons why I think that Batman is a good character, because no matter what he will not cross that line, the day that Batman starts killing villains in the main continuity is the day that I stop reading comic books, it sets a standard that we should follow. I mean is this what society has come to, do we think that killing is okay now. I see some truth in Kingdom Come now.

and this, I dont see how people can think that the characters who brutally murder their enemies are cool anyway.

People who deserve to die should die. Batman should have slit the Joker's throat a long time ago.

Thats not what he became batman for. Bruce became batman so, he could protect the innocent, not brutally murder the guilty thats for the law to decide not batman. If he starts murdering villians then he would become no better than them, and he would lose all the allies and trust that he's gained over the years of being batman. Batman supposed to be a symbol of justice not murder, if the law says that those villlians shouldnt be killed then thats the laws fault not batman's.

#41 Posted by bob808 (6775 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19 said:

@bob808 said:

@Eternal19 said:

@End_Boss said:

@bob808: Again, I disagree. Batman could easily kill any one of his rogues if he wanted to. How many times do you think he's desperately wanted to kill Joker? I'm sure every time he apprehends the guy it takes an incredible force of will to not kill him, but he manages it. Not because he's weak, but because he's strong. Because he needs to remain an incorruptible symbol for the people of Gotham, and he can't do that if he has blood on his hands, no matter whose it is.

this

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@bob808: Killing does not make you cool, killing is bad, remember that. It is one of the reasons why I think that Batman is a good character, because no matter what he will not cross that line, the day that Batman starts killing villains in the main continuity is the day that I stop reading comic books, it sets a standard that we should follow. I mean is this what society has come to, do we think that killing is okay now. I see some truth in Kingdom Come now.

and this, I dont see how people can think that the characters who brutally murder their enemies are cool anyway.

People who deserve to die should die. Batman should have slit the Joker's throat a long time ago.

Thats not what he became batman for. Bruce became batman so, he could protect the innocent, not brutally murder the guilty thats for the law to decide not batman. If he starts murdering villians then he would become no better than them, and he would lose all the allies and trust that he's gained over the years of being batman. Batman supposed to be a symbol of justice not murder, if the law says that those villlians shouldnt be killed then thats the laws fault not batman's.

Murdering villains is justice Batman needs to realize that. He would still be a symbol of justice if he kills. Villains would end up back on the streets if the law beings them in. Killing is the only way to protect Gotham.

#42 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808 said:

Murdering villains is justice Batman needs to realize that.

Maybe if we're in the Middle Ages.

#43 Edited by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@bob808 said:

@Eternal19 said:

@bob808 said:

@Eternal19 said:

@End_Boss said:

@bob808: Again, I disagree. Batman could easily kill any one of his rogues if he wanted to. How many times do you think he's desperately wanted to kill Joker? I'm sure every time he apprehends the guy it takes an incredible force of will to not kill him, but he manages it. Not because he's weak, but because he's strong. Because he needs to remain an incorruptible symbol for the people of Gotham, and he can't do that if he has blood on his hands, no matter whose it is.

this

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@bob808: Killing does not make you cool, killing is bad, remember that. It is one of the reasons why I think that Batman is a good character, because no matter what he will not cross that line, the day that Batman starts killing villains in the main continuity is the day that I stop reading comic books, it sets a standard that we should follow. I mean is this what society has come to, do we think that killing is okay now. I see some truth in Kingdom Come now.

and this, I dont see how people can think that the characters who brutally murder their enemies are cool anyway.

People who deserve to die should die. Batman should have slit the Joker's throat a long time ago.

Thats not what he became batman for. Bruce became batman so, he could protect the innocent, not brutally murder the guilty thats for the law to decide not batman. If he starts murdering villians then he would become no better than them, and he would lose all the allies and trust that he's gained over the years of being batman. Batman supposed to be a symbol of justice not murder, if the law says that those villlians shouldnt be killed then thats the laws fault not batman's.

Murdering villains is justice Batman needs to realize that. He would still be a symbol of justice if he kills. Villains would end up back on the streets if the law beings them in. Killing is the only way to protect Gotham.

I dont see how killing is justice.

#45 Posted by consolemaster001 (5613 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny cause in "Knight of Vengeance" Batman used lethal force and killed several villians.

#46 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

Good News = joker will be permadead :)

#47 Posted by BiMor (14 posts) - - Show Bio

I know this is a bit irrelevant but I was thinking about how if bat man killed the joker thousands more would replace him. and also all of the pre-existing villains would riot.

#48 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@ULTRAstarkiller: batman has already defeated lady shiva, stalemated karate kid twice, and it's fairly concievable that he could beat deathstroke. if he became a killer i wouldn't say he would be unstoppable, but i think he'd make his life much easier (especially after killing the joker lol)

#49 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Batman maimed his victims? Like in the Dark Knight Returns when he paralized the Joker, or Justice Lords Batman who lobotimized his rogues.

#50 Edited by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

How many people are killed every time a major villain escapes Black Gate or Arkham? 10, 20, 50, more? It doesn't matter. Any is too many. Batman is sworn to protect them, but instead they have to die to protect what "he stands for?" At that point your virtues warrant rethinking, because they've become no more than self-righteous pandering. Perhaps it's time to take a closer look at what exactly it is Batman represents, because this is ludicrous.

Also, the no-kill code was not the idea of Bill Finger or Bob Kane. It was a restriction eventually placed on them by their editor, Whitney Ellsworth. The more you know.

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