I really don't like Scott Snyders run on Batman.

#1 Posted by MuyJingo (1653 posts) - - Show Bio

It's getting rave reviews, almost issue gets 5 stars. I really don't get why.

Here are the biggest problems I've had with the run:

  • I don't like the art. Just the style seems...scratchy and it isn't very detailed. I don't think this style of art is suited to the comic, at all.
  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know?
  • I don't like that Nightwing would have been a Talon. A stupid unnecessary retcon.
  • I don't like that Batman was captured and held for a period of time, and we didn't see his attempts to escape. We simply saw the consequences of having been captured/dehydrated/tortured for that long. Batman is known for having plans, backup plans and backup backup plans, for surmising situations and generally finding a way out or a solution to a problem when other heroes could not, even with their powers. Here we didn't even see him try, we only know that he failed. That isn't a good way to tell a Batman story.
  • Why is the court targeting Batman all of a sudden? Why are they targeting everyone all of a sudden, which doesn't seem like normal behavior.
  • I didn't like that an owl killed the bat that inspired Bruce to be...Batman. We never saw what happened to that bat and it shouldn't matter, but having an owl kill it to show owls are predators of bats....just seems so trite.
  • When did the court discover Batman was Bruce? I may have missed this but it seems like a slipup otherwise.
  • Now it's going to be the first crossover event in the DCnU. It just seems like it has gone on for much longer than it should have.

Anyone else feel the same way?

#2 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3509 posts) - - Show Bio

The court didn't discover Batman was Bruce until

 I do agree with the Nightwing retcon, though. It was unnecessary. Otherwise, I've loved the series so far.
#3 Edited by Funrush (1369 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

It's getting rave reviews, almost issue gets 5 stars. I really don't get why.

Here are the biggest problems I've had with the run:

  • I don't like the art. Just the style seems...scratchy and it isn't very detailed. I don't think this style of art is suited to the comic, at all. My opinion at first, but I got used to it, and it works for me.
  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know? I think in issue 4, he says that he did research them to find that they didn't exist. He investigated, but he couldn't find anything.
  • I don't like that Nightwing would have been a Talon. A stupid unnecessary retcon. I see what you mean, as it's useless to this book, but it helped gear up for Night of the Owls, where Dick is currently fighting the Talon that was his grandfather.
  • I don't like that Batman was captured and held for a period of time, and we didn't see his attempts to escape. We simply saw the consequences of having been captured/dehydrated/tortured for that long. Batman is known for having plans, backup plans and backup backup plans, for surmising situations and generally finding a way out or a solution to a problem when other heroes could not, even with their powers. Here we didn't even see him try, we only know that he failed. That isn't a good way to tell a Batman story. He couldn't find a way out, so he decided to trek through the maze until he found a soft spot. Also, he never expected the Talons to ever kidnap him and throw him in a maze to torture and starve him to death. He's a genius, not God.
  • Why is the court targeting Batman all of a sudden? Why are they targeting everyone all of a sudden, which doesn't seem like normal behavior. We don't know yet. I have a feeling reasons will be explained soon. We've got three more issues until the end of the arc.
  • I didn't like that an owl killed the bat that inspired Bruce to be...Batman. We never saw what happened to that bat and it shouldn't matter, but having an owl kill it to show owls are predators of bats....just seems so trite. I thought it was cool.
  • When did the court discover Batman was Bruce? I may have missed this but it seems like a slipup otherwise. The new issue.
  • Now it's going to be the first crossover event in the DCnU. It just seems like it has gone on for much longer than it should have. It just started last week! XD. No, but it's just the arc in Batman that has been going on for a while. It's new to all the other bat-books except maybe Nightwing.

Anyone else feel the same way?

My replies bolded above.

#4 Posted by TDK_1997 (14718 posts) - - Show Bio

His run has been amazing and Snyder would definitely explain everything in his next issues and in the other series.More secrets about the Court and the Talons would be discovered and I don't have even a small problem with anything he is doing.

#5 Posted by Death_From_Below (223 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really like scott synders batman myself...

#6 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

I respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree. While I won't attempt to dissuade you from your belief, if your resistance to the story is due to the above reasons, I've provided some explanations below that might assist you.

  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know?

Not only did he investigate them, towards the beginning of his career, they were also one of the first places he turned to place blame for the death of his parents. Since then, he has investigated the court numerous time, only to come up empty handed. One of the reasons why the Court has likely been off Batman's radar is due to the chaos caused within the Talon community by failing to recruit Dick Grayson and subsequently finding Raymond (Saiko of Nightwing) to be inferior, thus losing them a generational talon and diminishing their influence in the current era. For more on the most recent of the Talons, see Batman: The Dark Knight, which will set further context on the period of time wherein the Talon's had their most recent influence.

  • I don't like that Batman was captured and held for a period of time, and we didn't see his attempts to escape. We simply saw the consequences of having been captured/dehydrated/tortured for that long. Batman is known for having plans, backup plans and backup backup plans, for surmising situations and generally finding a way out or a solution to a problem when other heroes could not, even with their powers. Here we didn't even see him try, we only know that he failed. That isn't a good way to tell a Batman story.

He did try to escape. Multiple times. And as he did he gathered evidence, clues and materials needed to escape. Not only did he try, he succeeded. Also, you suggest that the story has gone on for too long, and yet you're also requesting additional sequences of the story not previously included. I find this hard to rectify.

  • Why is the court targeting Batman all of a sudden? Why are they targeting everyone all of a sudden, which doesn't seem like normal behavior.

Because he has begun to make a significant impact on the city through his influence... he is actually starting to make a difference... most notably, Bruce was targeted first as a consequence of his attempt to literally remodel the city to inspire it with hope. If you read Batman #1 and #2, you'll find many of these answers there. Again, Batman wasn't even really a target of the Court until he began investigating them in the sewers... after his escape, the Court finally acknowledged him as a threat needing to be dealt with, and in order to wrestle control of the city have decided to settle on a dramatic board sweeping strike against the city. They're a scorned petulant child, striking back.

  • I didn't like that an owl killed the bat that inspired Bruce to be...Batman. We never saw what happened to that bat and it shouldn't matter, but having an owl kill it to show owls are predators of bats....just seems so trite.

*shrug* I'd suggest you take it simply as a symbolic metaphor than as an actual piece of truth then. I interpreted it as a sort of dream state anyways, due to the fact that the whole thing was taking place during a drug-induced "near death experience".

  • When did the court discover Batman was Bruce? I may have missed this but it seems like a slipup otherwise.

Issue 8. They didn't care who Batman was, they just happened to find it out upon attacking the mansion. They were previously targeting Bruce primarily, Batman as a secondary consequence.

#7 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's another great group of villains for Batman, they're a credible threat to him and I like that they're mysterious. Also, because they're such a part of Gotham's history, there's a lot of opportunities to tie into other books, even books like All Star Western. As for the Grayson retcon, I like it. It helps that the whole thing is basically just taking earth-3 villains (e.g., Owlman and Talon) and massaging them into continuity.

#8 Posted by MuyJingo (1653 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for your replies. Just a few points in response.

@TheOptimist said:

Not only did he investigate them, towards the beginning of his career, they were also one of the first places he turned to place blame for the death of his parents. Since then, he has investigated the court numerous time, only to come up empty handed. One of the reasons why the Court has likely been off Batman's radar is due to the chaos caused within the Talon community by failing to recruit Dick Grayson and subsequently finding Raymond (Saiko of Nightwing) to be inferior, thus losing them a generational talon and diminishing their influence in the current era. For more on the most recent of the Talons, see Batman: The Dark Knight, which will set further context on the period of time wherein the Talon's had their most recent influence.

So we are meant to believe that The worlds greatest detective found absolutely nothing? Not a single scrap of evidence indicating there may be some truth to the legend? The problem I have I guess is that rather than showing the court to be masterful and elusive, they seem to be showing batman to be incompetent/inexperience.

Remember, The current storyline is taking place in the present, after Knightfall, Year One, Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Killing Joke etc where has has been shown to be a competent detective. Yes, those storylines are still canon in the DCnU. At least some flashbacks showing him investigating and failing to turn up anything would have been appreciated. At the moment it has been explained away in one or two lines of dialogue, which I don't feel is true to the character.

Also, why was Dick Grayson's father not poached to be a talon, if his grandfather was and he was meant to be. Was that explained, as I don't recall it being noted.

He did try to escape. Multiple times. And as he did he gathered evidence, clues and materials needed to escape. Not only did he try, he succeeded. Also, you suggest that the story has gone on for too long, and yet you're also requesting additional sequences of the story not previously included. I find this hard to rectify.

My point is he was not shown trying to escape. We see him get captured then a month later we see what he is like after being held for a month. There really should have been an issue in between showing him trying to analyze his surroundings and trying to escape, only to fail. This would have illustrated his skills/abilities as well as shown why the court is the threat they are.

I feel the story has gone on for too long and that the exposition I am asking for should have been included much earlier in the story. The two points are not mutually exclusive, so I don't see the problem.

Because he has begun to make a significant impact on the city through his influence... he is actually starting to make a difference... most notably, Bruce was targeted first as a consequence of his attempt to literally remodel the city to inspire it with hope. If you read Batman #1 and #2, you'll find many of these answers there. Again, Batman wasn't even really a target of the Court until he began investigating them in the sewers... after his escape, the Court finally acknowledged him as a threat needing to be dealt with, and in order to wrestle control of the city have decided to settle on a dramatic board sweeping strike against the city. They're a scorned petulant child, striking back.

So after at least 10 years of active duty and 5 years on the Justice League, Batman is only now starting to make a difference?

I've read all the Batman issues, and the answers are not really laid out. Bruce does not seem to be making more of an influence than he would of previously, and even if he were why would the court decide to move against *everyone* all of a sudden? Mayors, police chiefs etc...the list was in the last comic. It is out of character for the court. It just does not seem fitting that they draw so much attention to themselves.

Another minor point I had a problem with is that it took Bruce a fair bit to defeat a talon on the first encounter, but when they swarmed him he found it far easier to put down several. That fight should have been much more intense I am aware it is still going on, but he should not have been able to put down so many talons so easily.

*shrug* I'd suggest you take it simply as a symbolic metaphor than as an actual piece of truth then. I interpreted it as a sort of dream state anyways, due to the fact that the whole thing was taking place during a drug-induced "near death experience".

Alas, I don't think the owl bat sequence was part of the dream, but I guess that works.

Issue 8. They didn't care who Batman was, they just happened to find it out upon attacking the mansion. They were previously targeting Bruce primarily, Batman as a secondary consequence.

Another minor point, but shouldn't it have been much much harder to find/access the Batcave?

#9 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

So we are meant to believe that The worlds greatest detective found absolutely nothing? Not a single scrap of evidence indicating there may be some truth to the legend? The problem I have I guess is that rather than showing the court to be masterful and elusive, they seem to be showing batman to be incompetent/inexperience.

Remember, The current storyline is taking place in the present, after Knightfall, Year One, Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Killing Joke etc where has has been shown to be a competent detective. Yes, those storylines are still canon in the DCnU. At least some flashbacks showing him investigating and failing to turn up anything would have been appreciated. At the moment it has been explained away in one or two lines of dialogue, which I don't feel is true to the character.

Also, why was Dick Grayson's father not poached to be a talon, if his grandfather was and he was meant to be. Was that explained, as I don't recall it being noted.

From what I gathered he looked into it extensively only that one time when he was 10 years old. I think the point that Snyder was trying to make with this is that Bruce has become arrogant. He believed that any investigation he did as a grief stricken 10 year old was just as thorough as anything he would do in the present.

As for why Dick's father wasn't chosen, I don't think it is lineage based to become a talon. I think that Dick, much like Cobb, showed exceptional skills as a young acrobat. While retconning Dick to become a Talon was not strictly necessary in my opinion, it does do a good job of linking Dick to Gotham City.

My point is he was not shown trying to escape. We see him get captured then a month later we see what he is like after being held for a month. There really should have been an issue in between showing him trying to analyze his surroundings and trying to escape, only to fail. This would have illustrated his skills/abilities as well as shown why the court is the threat they are.

I feel the story has gone on for too long and that the exposition I am asking for should have been included much earlier in the story. The two points are not mutually exclusive, so I don't see the problem.

While I agree that it would have been interesting to see an issue on Bruce trying to escape, such an issue would simply be filler and drag the series on longer. The essential thing to take from his time in the labyrinth is that Bruce is unable to get out and the Court is a serious threat.

So after at least 10 years of active duty and 5 years on the Justice League, Batman is only now starting to make a difference?

I've read all the Batman issues, and the answers are not really laid out. Bruce does not seem to be making more of an influence than he would of previously, and even if he were why would the court decide to move against *everyone* all of a sudden? Mayors, police chiefs etc...the list was in the last comic. It is out of character for the court. It just does not seem fitting that they draw so much attention to themselves.

Another minor point I had a problem with is that it took Bruce a fair bit to defeat a talon on the first encounter, but when they swarmed him he found it far easier to put down several. That fight should have been much more intense I am aware it is still going on, but he should not have been able to put down so many talons so easily.

I thought that the reason they decided to strike now was that Batman discovered that the Court does exist. Batman can't be considered a threat if he doesn't believe you exist. There would be no point in staging a sweeping attack across Gotham unless there existed a possibility that playing a long game could be foiled by Batman.

As for how he took down a larger number of Talons, I saw it not as Bruce defeating each Talon that came to the mansion, but rather knocking them back as he fled to the cave. It could also be possible that, since these new Talons were just raised, they have not had as much time to thaw out as Cobb did. Bruce also mentioned to one of them that their fighting styles went out of date 200 years ago, meaning that they are not as skilled as Cobb.

Alas, I don't think the owl bat sequence was part of the dream, but I guess that works.

I chose the owl eating the bat to be more of a metaphor from Snyder than actually a firm piece of evidence for what happened to the bat the inspired Bruce.

Another minor point, but shouldn't it have been much much harder to find/access the Batcave?

The Batcave has been accessed in a similar way before in Batman Fugitive (I think). The Talons are also fairly skilled ninja, and it has been shown repeatedly that the League of Assassins is able to get into the Batcave.

#10 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

So we are meant to believe that The worlds greatest detective found absolutely nothing? Not a single scrap of evidence indicating there may be some truth to the legend? The problem I have I guess is that rather than showing the court to be masterful and elusive, they seem to be showing batman to be incompetent/inexperience.

Remember, The current storyline is taking place in the present, after Knightfall, Year One, Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Killing Joke etc where has has been shown to be a competent detective. Yes, those storylines are still canon in the DCnU. At least some flashbacks showing him investigating and failing to turn up anything would have been appreciated. At the moment it has been explained away in one or two lines of dialogue, which I don't feel is true to the character.

Also, why was Dick Grayson's father not poached to be a talon, if his grandfather was and he was meant to be. Was that explained, as I don't recall it being noted.

Actually, I think your second point is probably the best evidence of why he WOULDN'T have found evidence at that point... the dude is pretty darned busy. There is a pretty continuous string of duties and responsibilities that he has... unless there is really clear evidence, I don't think it would've been too wise a move for him to investigate an old nursery rhyme, or murders of the distant past... and he also rejects it in part due to a traumatic childhood experience establishing the same theme.

I'm interested as to the Grayson family myself... now, we're not just assuming that every Grayson became a Talon... there might've been a better acrobat at the time of Dick's parents... but that is part of the story that I'm looking forward to hearing more about. It hasn't been noted yet, though.

My point is he was not shown trying to escape. We see him get captured then a month later we see what he is like after being held for a month. There really should have been an issue in between showing him trying to analyze his surroundings and trying to escape, only to fail. This would have illustrated his skills/abilities as well as shown why the court is the threat they are.

I feel the story has gone on for too long and that the exposition I am asking for should have been included much earlier in the story. The two points are not mutually exclusive, so I don't see the problem.

Issue 5 was all about him analyzing the scene... it wasn't explicitly identified as such, in part due to the intentionally garbled narrative... but that was what made the issue so fantastic for me. He analyzed, he drew conclusions, he attempted escape... and failed majorly... and then in the subsequent issue managed to reassess the situation and blew his way outta there.

So after at least 10 years of active duty and 5 years on the Justice League, Batman is only now starting to make a difference?

I've read all the Batman issues, and the answers are not really laid out. Bruce does not seem to be making more of an influence than he would of previously, and even if he were why would the court decide to move against *everyone* all of a sudden? Mayors, police chiefs etc...the list was in the last comic. It is out of character for the court. It just does not seem fitting that they draw so much attention to themselves.

Another minor point I had a problem with is that it took Bruce a fair bit to defeat a talon on the first encounter, but when they swarmed him he found it far easier to put down several. That fight should have been much more intense I am aware it is still going on, but he should not have been able to put down so many talons so easily.

The Court of Owls, as noted in interviews, haven't really cared about what Batman and Bruce Wayne up to this point... he wasn't causing waves of worry for them... they noted him, but only on a 'meh' level. They underestimated him in the same fashion that he underestimated them... they hadn't realized how much Batman HAD made a difference... so they had to even pull out a Talon out of retirement to get the job done, because their earlier plan had been somewhat ruined.

To which first Talon fight were you referring? The one where he was having to hold back due to being out of costume or the drugged in the maze fight? I do agree that it was slightly inconsistent... but not highly problematic, especially because Wayne is on super-familiar territory and his objective to this point was escape rather than dominance. So far the only Talon he has 'beaten' in the cave was one that got squashed by the penny... so score that one to Alfred anyways.

Alas, I don't think the owl bat sequence was part of the dream, but I guess that works.

Another minor point, but shouldn't it have been much much harder to find/access the Batcave?

Unfortunately, Alfred is to blame for this one. In his rush to clear out to the Batcave, he didn't recognize he was being observed.

#11 Posted by haydenclaireheroes (9009 posts) - - Show Bio

You are the first person I have heard that from. I having been hearing great things about the series

#12 Posted by Lvenger (19405 posts) - - Show Bio

I do agree with you on the art. Capullo's style is a bit scratchy and I'm not that big a fan of it. I'd only give it a 6 or 7 out of 10. I disagree with you on everything else though but I respect your opinion. It's quite bold to show a dislike of Snyder's Batman series. Unique too.

#13 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (862 posts) - - Show Bio

So far I'm enjoying it, sure there are some minor problems here and there and these crossovers are a bit outta hand but I'm into it. At least it has postive feedback than Batman: The Dark Knight and Detective Comics.

#14 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the arc but I have to agree about some points :

@MuyJingo said:

  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know?

Considering everything that happened in Gotham in the past, including freaking Cataclysm and NO MAN'S LAND, it makes no sense that the Court would only appear and intervene now.

And this:

@MuyJingo said:

  • I don't like that Nightwing would have been a Talon. A stupid unnecessary retcon.

Completely agree here. As I said before if the circus was a front for the court, Tony Zucco would not have been able to blackmail it. He would have been killed by the Talon the very night he threatened the manager for the first time. Same for Bruce Wayne the very night he decided to take Dick.

I like Snyder but he is waaaayyy too much into secret societies and conspiracies. A mugging can be just a mugging, a circus can be just a circus.

#15 Posted by htb106 (1641 posts) - - Show Bio

I thinks it's one of the best I've read.

And the art isn't snyder's fault.

#16 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: Is the circus a front for the court or do they just have an affinity to select talented acrobats to be the next Talon. Though I have not read Nightwing yet, so I'm not sure if it is stated there.

#17 Edited by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@DarthShap: Is the circus a front for the court or do they just have an affinity to select talented acrobats to be the next Talon. Though I have not read Nightwing yet, so I'm not sure if it is stated there.

It is clearer in Nightwing indeed and yes, it is a front with the owner clearly in on it.

And even if it was not, the Court would not let anything happen to their cherished Talons and to the place they come from, especially with that much power.

#18 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: I think that Higgins is going to examine Zucco a little later on this summer. Perhaps he will sort out how the Court is involved.

#19 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@DarthShap: I think that Higgins is going to examine Zucco a little later on this summer. Perhaps he will sort out how the Court is involved.

Possible but this still does not explain why the Court did not kill Bruce Wayne right after the death of Dick's parents...especially if they planned on killing Gotham's elite at some point in the future.

And it also takes away from the parallel between Bruce and Dick. Normal people to whom tragedy happens and they become special. It does not work if Dick was already a trainee in Gotham's academy of killers.

#20 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: Being chosen to be a Talon doesn't mean that he was already in training necessarily. Also the Dick and Bruce parallel can still apply. All that truly matters is how the individual feels in regards to the loss that they experience.

The court may have chosen to not kill Bruce Wayne because they didn't care to raise Dick. They are a secret society, not an orphanage. They may have believed that Bruce would keep Dick safe until they could intervene, not that he would make him into an incorruptible symbol of justice

#21 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@DarthShap: Being chosen to be a Talon doesn't mean that he was already in training necessarily. Also the Dick and Bruce parallel can still apply. All that truly matters is how the individual feels in regards to the loss that they experience.

The court may have chosen to not kill Bruce Wayne because they didn't care to raise Dick. They are a secret society, not an orphanage. They may have believed that Bruce would keep Dick safe until they could intervene, not that he would make him into an incorruptible symbol of justice

The parallel is not destroyed but it just does not work as well.

And no, it still does not make much sense because chances were Dick would stop practicing when leaving the circus. The investment of one generation would be lost then.

#22 Posted by sj_esposito (457 posts) - - Show Bio

@MuyJingo said:

It's getting rave reviews, almost issue gets 5 stars. I really don't get why.

Here are the biggest problems I've had with the run:

  • I don't like the art. Just the style seems...scratchy and it isn't very detailed. I don't think this style of art is suited to the comic, at all.
  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know?
  • I don't like that Nightwing would have been a Talon. A stupid unnecessary retcon.
  • I don't like that Batman was captured and held for a period of time, and we didn't see his attempts to escape. We simply saw the consequences of having been captured/dehydrated/tortured for that long. Batman is known for having plans, backup plans and backup backup plans, for surmising situations and generally finding a way out or a solution to a problem when other heroes could not, even with their powers. Here we didn't even see him try, we only know that he failed. That isn't a good way to tell a Batman story.
  • Why is the court targeting Batman all of a sudden? Why are they targeting everyone all of a sudden, which doesn't seem like normal behavior.
  • I didn't like that an owl killed the bat that inspired Bruce to be...Batman. We never saw what happened to that bat and it shouldn't matter, but having an owl kill it to show owls are predators of bats....just seems so trite.
  • When did the court discover Batman was Bruce? I may have missed this but it seems like a slipup otherwise.
  • Now it's going to be the first crossover event in the DCnU. It just seems like it has gone on for much longer than it should have.

Anyone else feel the same way?

I was kind of waiting for someone to point some of these out. I'll address each individually:

  1. I'm shocked that some people don't like Capullo's art! I have been a fan of his since he was drawing Spawn, and I've always wanted him to draw Batman, so I may be biased, but I would've thought fans loved his work on the book unanimously.
  2. I agree with you on this point, for the most part, but I do see the utility in making the Court unbeknownst to Bruce for all these years--they're a lot scarier and intimidating that way.
  3. I like the Nightwing thing. Furthermore, I'm hoping this will tie into the jump drive loose thread from The Black Mirror.
  4. As others have stated, Batman is not God. The point of showing him in his weakened state and unable to get out is to show how much of a threat the Court and Talon are. There's no reason Batman should be able to escape every single bad situation that befalls him.
  5. This will, almost definitely, be addressed by the end of the arc.
  6. I, too, had a big issue with this. I don't like it at all. I will concede that it serves its purpose well, but I feel like Snyder took a defining moment in the Batman mythos and changed it to suit his story. It did make me kind of go 'holy crap!', take a step back and realize that the Court has been a natural enemy to Batman for so long. But after that all wore off and I was thinking it over, I'm unsettled by it and kind of feel like it perverted a very critical moment in Batman lore.
  7. Someone already addressed this above.
  8. I may be agreeing with this by the time the event ends, but, as it stands right now, Night of the Owls is the only comic book event that has excited me since Final Crisis.
#23 Posted by Spectre108 (269 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I personally love it, but to each his own.

#24 Posted by MuyJingo (1653 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n said:

@MuyJingo said:

From what I gathered he looked into it extensively only that one time when he was 10 years old. I think the point that Snyder was trying to make with this is that Bruce has become arrogant. He believed that any investigation he did as a grief stricken 10 year old was just as thorough as anything he would do in the present.

That I guess is my issue. Batman isn't generally arrogant, not to that extent. Why write him that way?

As for why Dick's father wasn't chosen, I don't think it is lineage based to become a talon. I think that Dick, much like Cobb, showed exceptional skills as a young acrobat. While retconning Dick to become a Talon was not strictly necessary in my opinion, it does do a good job of linking Dick to Gotham City.

So it is a coincidence that Dick was chosen? I guess I can buy that, I still don't like it though. Although if it were coincidence would Bruce have known to knock out one of Dick's teeth?

While I agree that it would have been interesting to see an issue on Bruce trying to escape, such an issue would simply be filler and drag the series on longer. The essential thing to take from his time in the labyrinth is that Bruce is unable to get out and the Court is a serious threat.

At least a few pages showing that if not an issue. At the moment the court is a threat simply because the writers say they are a threat. They have not really shown that, and I have a problem just accepting it.

I thought that the reason they decided to strike now was that Batman discovered that the Court does exist. Batman can't be considered a threat if he doesn't believe you exist. There would be no point in staging a sweeping attack across Gotham unless there existed a possibility that playing a long game could be foiled by Batman.

They attacked people before Batman even started investigating. Batman started investigating simply because they attacked Bruce Wayne and the other guy.

As for how he took down a larger number of Talons, I saw it not as Bruce defeating each Talon that came to the mansion, but rather knocking them back as he fled to the cave. It could also be possible that, since these new Talons were just raised, they have not had as much time to thaw out as Cobb did. Bruce also mentioned to one of them that their fighting styles went out of date 200 years ago, meaning that they are not as skilled as Cobb.

Good points...fair points...OK.

I chose the owl eating the bat to be more of a metaphor from Snyder than actually a firm piece of evidence for what happened to the bat the inspired Bruce.

Could be....I still think it was unneccessary. It's like Snyder want's owls to be a major theme in the origin of the reboot, but that just doesn't work.

The Batcave has been accessed in a similar way before in Batman Fugitive (I think). The Talons are also fairly skilled ninja, and it has been shown repeatedly that the League of Assassins is able to get into the Batcave.

True, fair points fair points. Thanks.

#25 Posted by MuyJingo (1653 posts) - - Show Bio

@sEsposito7 said:

I'm shocked that some people don't like Capullo's art! I have been a fan of his since he was drawing Spawn, and I've always wanted him to draw Batman, so I may be biased, but I would've thought fans loved his work on the book unanimously.

Thanks for your reply. I'm not really familiar with Capullo, I just noticed that it was kind of scratchy and took me out of the comic a lot of the time. I think Batman and Robin probably has the best art at the moment, but it's just my personal preference

As others have stated, Batman is not God. The point of showing him in his weakened state and unable to get out is to show how much of a threat the Court and Talon are. There's no reason Batman should be able to escape every single bad situation that befalls him.

I have no problem with Batman not being able to escape. I just want to see him analyzing and trying to escape, and failing. At the moment the comic just implies he was captured and failed....showing Batman giving it everything he has and failing would have elevated the court, since we know how capable Batman is. I guess we are meant to assume that he gave it everything and failed....but somehow I didn't get that from the comic.

#26 Posted by entropy_aegis (15255 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

I respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree. While I won't attempt to dissuade you from your belief, if your resistance to the story is due to the above reasons, I've provided some explanations below that might assist you.

  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know?

Not only did he investigate them, towards the beginning of his career, they were also one of the first places he turned to place blame for the death of his parents. Since then, he has investigated the court numerous time, only to come up empty handed. One of the reasons why the Court has likely been off Batman's radar is due to the chaos caused within the Talon community by failing to recruit Dick Grayson and subsequently finding Raymond (Saiko of Nightwing) to be inferior, thus losing them a generational talon and diminishing their influence in the current era. For more on the most recent of the Talons, see Batman: The Dark Knight, which will set further context on the period of time wherein the Talon's had their most recent influence.

  • I don't like that Batman was captured and held for a period of time, and we didn't see his attempts to escape. We simply saw the consequences of having been captured/dehydrated/tortured for that long. Batman is known for having plans, backup plans and backup backup plans, for surmising situations and generally finding a way out or a solution to a problem when other heroes could not, even with their powers. Here we didn't even see him try, we only know that he failed. That isn't a good way to tell a Batman story.

He did try to escape. Multiple times. And as he did he gathered evidence, clues and materials needed to escape. Not only did he try, he succeeded. Also, you suggest that the story has gone on for too long, and yet you're also requesting additional sequences of the story not previously included. I find this hard to rectify.

  • Why is the court targeting Batman all of a sudden? Why are they targeting everyone all of a sudden, which doesn't seem like normal behavior.

Because he has begun to make a significant impact on the city through his influence... he is actually starting to make a difference... most notably, Bruce was targeted first as a consequence of his attempt to literally remodel the city to inspire it with hope. If you read Batman #1 and #2, you'll find many of these answers there. Again, Batman wasn't even really a target of the Court until he began investigating them in the sewers... after his escape, the Court finally acknowledged him as a threat needing to be dealt with, and in order to wrestle control of the city have decided to settle on a dramatic board sweeping strike against the city. They're a scorned petulant child, striking back.

  • I didn't like that an owl killed the bat that inspired Bruce to be...Batman. We never saw what happened to that bat and it shouldn't matter, but having an owl kill it to show owls are predators of bats....just seems so trite.

*shrug* I'd suggest you take it simply as a symbolic metaphor than as an actual piece of truth then. I interpreted it as a sort of dream state anyways, due to the fact that the whole thing was taking place during a drug-induced "near death experience".

  • When did the court discover Batman was Bruce? I may have missed this but it seems like a slipup otherwise.

Issue 8. They didn't care who Batman was, they just happened to find it out upon attacking the mansion. They were previously targeting Bruce primarily, Batman as a secondary consequence.

An investigation by an 8 year old,untrained Bruce Wayne is hardly anything noteworthy.He never investigated them after that and he actually decided to act like a common retard and believe that they did'nt exist even when he first fought Talon.

Batman's attempts at escaping were never shown,he was stuck there for a week simply cause the writer said so,we never got to find out what was so special about that maze and then Batman escaped in a way that made his whole week of suffering look completely unnecessary.

Yes but that's not how you add to a mythology,or else another writer will create the cult of the vultures and then show a vulture eating the remains of the bat.

That makes it even more stupid,so the Talons just WENT in to the cave unintentionally? lol.

#27 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason the Talons went after him in the first place is because he had plans to revitalize Gotham and change a lot of things.

His escape prompted the court to panic and try to finish him off before the secret got out.

Hence, night of the owls.

#28 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, the bat that the owls killed was already retconned by Morrison into being a starved old bat that was being attacked by young bats.

Also it's just a f**king bat.

Bruce was still inspired, no matter what happened to it.

#29 Posted by Imagine_Man15 (1801 posts) - - Show Bio

You can't really blame Snyder's run for the art, because he isn't the artist. I like that Nightwing would have been a Talon, sure it isn't absolutely necessary, but its still cool. I thought the owl killing the bat was a bit too blatant of symbolism, so I agree with you there. Batman did try to escape while he was held captive, he just couldn't. The Court of Owls are going after him now because Bruce Wayne/Batman are both at the peak of their influence on Gotham, he has investigated them before but didn't find any evidence to convince him of their existence, and they found out about his identity after they attacked him.

So, in a nutshell, I disagree with your opinions. I do respect you for expressing it though, it's almost unheard of for someone to actually criticize Snyder.

#30 Posted by TheOptimist (713 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

An investigation by an 8 year old,untrained Bruce Wayne is hardly anything noteworthy.He never investigated them after that and he actually decided to act like a common retard and believe that they did'nt exist even when he first fought Talon.

Batman's attempts at escaping were never shown,he was stuck there for a week simply cause the writer said so,we never got to find out what was so special about that maze and then Batman escaped in a way that made his whole week of suffering look completely unnecessary.

Yes but that's not how you add to a mythology,or else another writer will create the cult of the vultures and then show a vulture eating the remains of the bat.

That makes it even more stupid,so the Talons just WENT in to the cave unintentionally? lol.

While I tempt ridicule for such a comment, I would ask that you refrain from using the word "retard" in your commentary. That said you have a right to your opinion, and it is clear that we simply disagree. I perceived events beyond the page, as I tend to do when reading, and allowed my own imagination to embellish the "special" nature of the cave and the investigations Bruce has launched into the Court, which again, he did according to statements made by the character. Do I know the extent of those investigations? No, and for me, I don't care. Again, my own creativity took care of that space for me. For those seeking more information, I would note that more explicit answers may be forthcoming as the maze will be revisited shortly. I also perceive the symbolism to be an appropriate parallel to the contribution of the mythology. In the comics world, mythology is typically added by another writer, who continues to develop the story, sometimes in a new direction. Sometimes that is met favorably, sometimes not. The Talon did not go into the cave unintentionally. The Talon's intention was to kill Alfred. Lol.

#31 Posted by royale_with_cheese (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

He never investigated them after that and he actually decided to act like a common retard and believe that they did'nt exist even when he first fought Talon.

This really goes against Bruce's established paranoia; the primary reason why people regard him as a master of contingency plans.

#32 Posted by entropy_aegis (15255 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

Also, the bat that the owls killed was already retconned by Morrison into being a starved old bat that was being attacked by young bats.

Also it's just a f**king bat.

Bruce was still inspired, no matter what happened to it.

It still was'nt killed by an owl though,that scene was sweetly drawn but still stupid imo.Like I said what's next? vultures eating it's carcass in the day of the vultures.@InnerVenom123 said:

The reason the Talons went after him in the first place is because he had plans to revitalize Gotham and change a lot of things.

His escape prompted the court to panic and try to finish him off before the secret got out.

Hence, night of the owls.

This is'nt the first time,No Mans Land comes to mind,I wonder what they were doing there.@TheOptimist said:

@entropy_aegis said:

An investigation by an 8 year old,untrained Bruce Wayne is hardly anything noteworthy.He never investigated them after that and he actually decided to act like a common retard and believe that they did'nt exist even when he first fought Talon.

Batman's attempts at escaping were never shown,he was stuck there for a week simply cause the writer said so,we never got to find out what was so special about that maze and then Batman escaped in a way that made his whole week of suffering look completely unnecessary.

Yes but that's not how you add to a mythology,or else another writer will create the cult of the vultures and then show a vulture eating the remains of the bat.

That makes it even more stupid,so the Talons just WENT in to the cave unintentionally? lol.

While I tempt ridicule for such a comment, I would ask that you refrain from using the word "retard" in your commentary. That said you have a right to your opinion, and it is clear that we simply disagree. I perceived events beyond the page, as I tend to do when reading, and allowed my own imagination to embellish the "special" nature of the cave and the investigations Bruce has launched into the Court, which again, he did according to statements made by the character. Do I know the extent of those investigations? No, and for me, I don't care. Again, my own creativity took care of that space for me. For those seeking more information, I would note that more explicit answers may be forthcoming as the maze will be revisited shortly. I also perceive the symbolism to be an appropriate parallel to the contribution of the mythology. In the comics world, mythology is typically added by another writer, who continues to develop the story, sometimes in a new direction. Sometimes that is met favorably, sometimes not. The Talon did not go into the cave unintentionally. The Talon's intention was to kill Alfred. Lol.

I dunno,Bruce was certainly acting like a fool with the whole"it's my city" non sense.

And the Talon just strolled in to the cave? I mean if he had followed Alfred then yeah it might have been believable but he just appeared out of thin air.

#33 Posted by Superguy0009e (2265 posts) - - Show Bio
  • I don't like the art. Just the style seems...scratchy and it isn't very detailed. I don't think this style of art is suited to the comic, at all. I love the art. It goes exactly with all the different tones. Dark, realistic, super heroic, etc. I love the art, but everyone has an opinion.
  • I feel like this storyarc should have happened a lot closer to the start of Batman's career. He has been Batman for at least 10 years, and is just now finding out about this epic conspiracy/network that has been in Gotham all of this time? He has never investigated a case with Talons involved previously? He is the worlds greatest detective but only finds aout about them when they target him? i.e. choose to let him know? As previously stated, Batman investigated this at a young age, and believed it too be close. As your arguments for his innacurate arrogance, well that is for a reason. Batman is bein a little more arrogant because he is questioning his city. He doesn't want to admit there is something he missed while spending all of his years here. He wanted this to be his city, only to find out the owls have made it their nest for quite a while. It is him really arrogant, just more not accepting that someone knows the city more than him.
  • I don't like that Nightwing would have been a Talon. A stupid unnecessary retcon. I agree to a point. If it is not discussed and thoroughly talked about, it could be stupid and unnecessary. But I trust Snyder, Higgens and all the other writers..
  • I don't like that Batman was captured and held for a period of time, and we didn't see his attempts to escape. We simply saw the consequences of having been captured/dehydrated/tortured for that long. Batman is known for having plans, backup plans and backup backup plans, for surmising situations and generally finding a way out or a solution to a problem when other heroes could not, even with their powers. Here we didn't even see him try, we only know that he failed. That isn't a good way to tell a Batman story. Again, would be just a stupid filler issue with him in the maze. And in the issue where he is in it, you DO see him deducing and analyzing. He isn't just moping around, he is trying to get out.
  • Why is the court targeting Batman all of a sudden? Why are they targeting everyone all of a sudden, which doesn't seem like normal behavior. Again, he is working on the city now. They didn't care before because him being there for the city never meant he was going after their territory.
  • I didn't like that an owl killed the bat that inspired Bruce to be...Batman. We never saw what happened to that bat and it shouldn't matter, but having an owl kill it to show owls are predators of bats....just seems so trite. Hallucination. If not, it shouldn't matter. The bat got to Bruce and inspired him. Afterwards, the rest is history.
  • When did the court discover Batman was Bruce? I may have missed this but it seems like a slipup otherwise. The issue when they invade the house and find the cave. All talons have tracers on them (i believe), so tracing the signal would make sense for the others to get in.
  • Now it's going to be the first crossover event in the DCnU. It just seems like it has gone on for much longer than it should have. In defense of snyder, this wasnt meant to be a big crossover. I, for one, am glad. Shows how big this has been for batman

Hope these help, and hope you can enjoy the serious. I sure have been.

#34 Posted by sinestro_GL (3127 posts) - - Show Bio

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Of course, your opinion is welcomed...but I am blinded by the overwhelming awesomeness that Snyder has put into the arcs so far.

#35 Posted by MuyJingo (1653 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks to all the replies and those interested that someone wasn't impressed with Snyder's run.

I don't blame Snyder for the art, but was too lazy to include Capullo's name in the title or my original post.

I guess at the end of the day this Batman seems inexperienced and arrogant, which isn't who Batman is/was. I also don't like the retcons, but will wait to see how it plays out.

#36 Posted by Papito208 (8 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the main reason people are loving this series (as myself) is because this is a villain that Batman literally knows nothing about. Every single story presented after Dark Knight returns shows Batman as this God-like human being who knows who/when/what/how and why everything is happening even if he's fighting Aliens, Gods or God-like characters, going through parallel universes or back and forth through time he ALWAYS "knows" how to solve a problem or has come up with a solution to the problem and saves the day. Every villain he fights or has fought he just goes through their M.O. and checks to see if it fits and even if the rogues go off a beaten path they end up going back to the same schtick and all does Batman is just puts the puzzle pieces together and boom problem solved again.

Yes he is the greatest detective of all time but for ONCE I'm enjoying the fact that his arrogance got the best of him, the city that he thought he knew is gone and the threat is bigger than what he can handle on his own (compared to taking down his entire rogue gallery in an arkham asylum hallway). We see this with him calling the family and in Justice League 8 when: The Justice League helps him take down some talons on the aircraft

#37 Posted by noj (1082 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: I think what Snyder is going to eventually reveal is that the Court at some point lost its influence and prominence in Gotham. They were probably still around but a shell of their former self. If I were writing the story its the route I would go to explain their lack of presence in Gotham so far. Maybe Bruce's plan to revitalize Gotham finally drove them to action.

I also have to mention that never in the run has it been said that the deaths of Bruce's parents was anything other than a simple mugging gone wrong. I remember reading some of Snyder's tweets a couple of months ago responding to a fans question about Joe Chill and he said something to the effect that he much preferred the idea that the man who killed the Waynes was just some random guy. I seriously doubt Snyder is going to change that

#38 Posted by Agiyosi (32 posts) - - Show Bio

Haven't really read comics in about 15 years (outside of a few graphic novels such as Kingdom Come and some of the Miller turns w/ Batman), so I'm coming in on this rather fresh. I like the story so far. I know some are critical of Batman not being aware of the Court as it has been around for centuries, but as others have stated, I think it establishes them with a staunch credibility of menace and wherewithal. Many people tend to gripe about Superman (or Hulk) being overpowered, but sometimes, perhaps not in canon/continuity, but in people's minds, Batman is a bit overpowered when it comes to having ALL of the information. Granted, one of the things I love about Batman is the mental edge he has over his opponents, but it places him in a better position story-wise to have him, at least for once, not have all the data necessary to be ahead of his adversary, but behind them. This makes the conflict even greater and thus his (inevitable) victory more rewarding.

As for the art, I'm not crazy about it. It's serviceable and has its moments, but I want more for Bats.

#39 Posted by Cavemold (1679 posts) - - Show Bio

I will have to disagree . I'm enjoying gregs art and the story , I will say I thought issue 7 and 8 could of been merged in one issue

#40 Posted by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

i agree. the story feels forced, the fact that the talons suddenly pop up is forced, the killing of the bat is like spitting on kaine's work and yes it does feel like has been going for far too long a time.

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