I've been reading back issues of all the Tim Drake stories (which I love), and I noticed that during the end his Robin series, when Damian is introduced, Tim beats the snot of Damian, and then later in an issue of Red Robin he does it again.

In all the later issues of Robin that the great Bill Willingham did (see his work with FABLES), Tim is portrayed as the one Robin who was the complete package that could really be the next Batman. Sure Dick has the experience and the superior fighting skill, but it's only Tim who can match Bruce's intellect. That's why I was surprised to see Tim get beaten during the Battle for the Cowl by Jason Todd so soundly. I mean, sure Jason fought dirty, but sheesh, in the Robin issues, Tim took on gangs of Gun toting hoods, Russian hitman and a hulking human shark-man. I honestly felt weird about Tim getting beat by Jason Todd- with or without a gun. But it happened, and I guess to emphasize how much more skilled Dick is, he proceeds to defeat Jason later on in Battle for the Cowl.

So as it stands, I know that Dick has beaten Jason; Jason has beaten Tim; and Tim has beaten Damian. (Stephanie isn't really being considered here, but I think we all know she'd struggle to take on any of the other Robins- though did decently when having to babysit Damian during her entertaining stint as Batgirl). I don't recall Tim and Dick fighting, so I didn't consider that either.

So does anyone else out there recall any Robin getting the best of the Robin that came before him, or is it just a golden rule that Robin isn't allowed to beat his predecessor/ For the record, I think Tim deserves a rematch (and his own stinkin' Comic title for crying out loud!) against Jason. Red Robin vs. Red Hood= that's gotta happen eventually right?

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

@ComicStooge said:

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

They are?

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

really? well that should be intresting.

@ComicStooge said:

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

They are?

@spiderbat87 said:

@Reality said:

@ComicStooge said:

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

They are?

yep, they even work together

Is this in RHATO? Because i haven't read it. Well, I guess its okay, but Tim/Dick should be the primer friendship, with Jason/Damian as a second.

@spiderbat87 said:

@Reality said:

@ComicStooge said:

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

They are?

yep, they even work together

Is this in RHATO? Because i haven't read it. Well, I guess its okay, but Tim/Dick should be the primer friendship, with Jason/Damian as a second.

Dick is the best in combat, as well as intelligent as an investigator and scientist Tim, while Damian has the potential to be THE best. Jason is very close to Dick. However, right now, it seems that nobody can be like Bruce.

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

really? well that should be intresting.

Agreed that will make for some amazing stories. I wonder if Damian will even attempt to take on Stephanie? That might be a little messed up, but she's the only I'm pretty sure he could beat. He'll probably want to take on Tim first, since Tim has beaten him twice before. He'll want to avenge those losses before moving on to Jason Todd. There's no way Damian beats Dick... I mean, Dick was his first Batman- you'd think even Damian would be hesitant to take him on.

@Jawshco said:

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

really? well that should be intresting.

Agreed that will make for some amazing stories. I wonder if Damian will even attempt to take on Stephanie? That might be a little messed up, but she's the only I'm pretty sure he could beat. He'll probably want to take on Tim first, since Tim has beaten him twice before. He'll want to avenge those losses before moving on to Jason Todd. There's no way Damian beats Dick... I mean, Dick was his first Batman- you'd think even Damian would be hesitant to take him on.

It's confirmed that Jason is his first target. And there's no way Damian beats any of them not just Dick, I'm guessing that he stops at Jason since the story arc is only 2 issues long and they have to set up for the next arc during this one.

@spiderbat87 said:

@Reality said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Reality said:

@ComicStooge said:

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

They are?

yep, they even work together

Is this in RHATO? Because i haven't read it. Well, I guess its okay, but Tim/Dick should be the primer friendship, with Jason/Damian as a second.

yes it is

I read that issue where Tim helps Jason as more of a peace offering of sorts to show that Tim is more that just do-gooder that blindly follows Bruce (actually, Tim has had issues with Bruce's actions for quite awhile- going back to Bruce outing his secret identity to Stephanie without his permission). I honestly don't think that it means that Tim and Jason are friends. I could easily still see the two of them battling over the shady way Jason handles his business. However, see the two of them team up would also be fun. I loved it when the two of them we're dissing Alfred's cooking. It was freaking hilarious. I never liked Jason as Robin (nor Dick as Robin for that matter), but he's a lot of fun as the Red Hood in the new series adding Tim as a regular guest to the title would make it even more interesting. DC needs more Tim Drake.

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

When does this begin? What issue?

@nickzambuto said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

When does this begin? What issue?

Number 10.

@Jawshco said:

and I noticed that during the end his Robin series, when Damian is introduced, Tim beats the snot of Damian, and then later in an issue of Red Robin he does it again.

When did he do it in the regular Robin series?

reading this just makes me even more sad of the fact that the charcter development build that we had with red robin and the ending of the robin series is all gone now T_T

@UrbanChill: Man, I hope that character development isn't abandoned. I don't think it is, or else why would Tim still be the Red Robin. I'd love to see Tim get his own series for sure though. Seeing him in Teen Titans, Batman Inc., and Batman The Dark Knight this month was definitely an upgrade I thought.

@Funrush said:

@nickzambuto said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

When does this begin? What issue?

Number 10.

@Jawshco said:

and I noticed that during the end his Robin series, when Damian is introduced, Tim beats the snot of Damian, and then later in an issue of Red Robin he does it again.

When did he do it in the regular Robin series?

It was in Robin 168. Great issue I thought. Sorry it took me so long to respond! I've been traveling.

Actually, Jason and Tim are pretty cool now-days.

Okay, so we saw Damian battling Tim in Batman and Robin #10. I thought it was a decent issue. It was nice seeing the scene with the family portrait. So who do you all think won that fight? Physically Damian got the surprise punches in on Tim, but I don't think he necessarily beat him. Then Damian got in his mental jabs with another sucker punch... on that note he may have had the upper hand there. Not sure how I'd feel about saying that Tim was the first Robin that Damian beat, but unless the fight isn't over he might have. What do you all think? Does this count as Damian defeating Tim or not?

@Jawshco said:

i

Okay, so we saw Damian battling Tim in Batman and Robin #10. I thought it was a decent issue. It was nice seeing the scene with the family portrait. So who do you all think won that fight? Physically Damian got the surprise punches in on Tim, but I don't think he necessarily beat him. Then Damian got in his mental jabs with another sucker punch... on that note he may have had the upper hand there. Not sure how I'd feel about saying that Tim was the first Robin that Damian beat, but unless the fight isn't over he might have. What do you all think? Does this count as Damian defeating Tim or not?

Damian may have gotten the slip on Tim but it seemed to me that Tim recovered quickly and fought back just as hard. I don't think there was a true winner to that fight. It was more Damian trying to bring Tim to his level than actually an attempt to defeat him.

@DarkKnightDetective said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Jawshco: Well in the up coming Batman & Robin arc Damian is on a mission to beat all past Robins to prove he is the best

really? well that should be intresting.

i dont think damian should be able to beat any of them at this point. and he may never beat grayson. but no robin will ever best the bat.

If the fight had been longer, I think Tim would have physically beaten him, but I was impressed that Damian was able to get under Tim's skin the way he did. At first I thought Damian's call-out to defeat all the other Robin's was a bit childish, but he is only 10 years old and whether or not it makes for good character development it definitely is something I wanted to see, so I'm all on-board for the battle of the Robins.

BTW- If you were to predict which Robin would win the battle if they were all in their adult primes, it would be pretty hard not to choose Damian wouldn't it? Dick is most physically gifted Robin there has ever been, and Tim's probably the smartest, but given time Damian is going to be a beast. I just hope he doesn't turn out like Azreal.

I honestly felt Damian was being alittle shit stain for playing head games with Tim. What did it accomplish really? In the beginning Damian wants to prove hes better than the other robins. Then at the end of the issue he makes it clear he wants Tim to know he is an equal. Thats a change in status quo which I didn't find enjoyment in. Everyone knows Damian is just being childish and wants to top his 3 predecessors either for personal satisfaction or to please daddy. It always gets under my skin that Damian has had the assassins of Rha's Al Ghul train him and all this good stuff that none of the previous Robins ever hoped to dream of having. Yet he hasn't matured at all, hes still a snot nosed 10 year old in my opinion.

I love the possiblities for this arc. I totally think tim drake should join the outlaws or give him his own book again, i loved the red robin series. I think the predecessor always gets the better of it's successor from what i can remember. but something tells me one of the robin's is going to die or something epic actually saving damian's life. hopefully none of them get killed off but i wouldn't be surprised if it was jason todd. I love all the robin's but for the most part it was after they weren't robin anymore. with the acception of tim drake, and damian. all of them resemble a strong charactaristic of bruce, which to me is what makes the bat family so special and awesome in my book.

Dick is the best combatant and probably the best detective. Jason is physically the strongest of all the Robins. Tim is the smartest. And Damien... Damien has the potential to be THE best in all categories, actually. But right now he's far too young to reach that kind of potential.

@1amnamtab: Tim simply would not fit in with the outlaws. I would however find it pretty cool if jason became close friends with both tim and Dick and it would be even better if Bruce and his son had no idea and then we could get that super awkward moment when everyone is in the same room and bruce finds out.

Its pretty hard to keep bruce in the dark though.

@FrankenKongsaid:

I honestly felt Damian was being alittle shit stain for playing head games with Tim. What did it accomplish really? In the beginning Damian wants to prove hes better than the other robins. Then at the end of the issue he makes it clear he wants Tim to know he is an equal. Thats a change in status quo which I didn't find enjoyment in. Everyone knows Damian is just being childish and wants to top his 3 predecessors either for personal satisfaction or to please daddy. It always gets under my skin that Damian has had the assassins of Rha's Al Ghul train him and all this good stuff that none of the previous Robins ever hoped to dream of having. Yet he hasn't matured at all, hes still a snot nosed 10 year old in my opinion.

I took that to be a response to Tim putting him down. It's no secret that Damian and Tim pretty much hate one another. Damian's proving them "equal" was less about proving himself the best Robin and more about throwing Tim's main argument against Damian right back into his face.

And Damian may have a massive temper but I don't think it's fair to say he hasn't matured at all. He is MUCH more tolerable (for readers and characters) now than he was when he was first introduced. Plus, he has had a pretty sufficient amount of development so far (even if we only count the new 52 universe - mostly in the later issues on Batman and Robin).

Dick is the most agile, Jason is physically the strongest, Tim is the smartest, Damian is the cockiest.

Damian beat Tim once.

The current arc of Batman and Robin is about Damian taking on all the ex- Robins.

I don't get Jason being the strongest. That has never been proven. I put him even with Dick. Jason is not bigger or anything.

Jason is the Tallest (tallest=stronger in comics?) but it isn't fair to compare Tim or Damien to him because they are still developing.

I dunno, Dick it's the most nimble, Jason the strong, Tim the clever and till Damian has the potential to defeat them all he still being immature, childish and selfish.

At the actual arc of Batman and Robin it's just pure selfishness, he really didn't defeated Tim or proved he was better than him and Tim knew it but just thought wasn't worth the time to prove him wrong....... but that isn't going to happen with the rest Jason isn't going to let the brat beat him easily and Dick probably try to reason with him meanwhile he beats him to the sh*t

@htb106 said:

Damian beat Tim once.

The current arc of Batman and Robin is about Damian taking on all the ex- Robins.

Where? I don't have a good memory

@soduh2 said:

Jason is the Tallest (tallest=stronger in comics?) but it isn't fair to compare Tim or Damien to him because they are still developing.

I wasn't saying height=power. I was saying mass does. Jason doesn't appear to be bigger in muscle mass or anything.

@soduh2 said:

Jason is the Tallest (tallest=stronger in comics?) but it isn't fair to compare Tim or Damien to him because they are still developing.

I wasn't saying height=power. I was saying mass does. Jason doesn't appear to be bigger in muscle mass or anything.

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@richardjohngrayson said:

@soduh2 said:

Jason is the Tallest (tallest=stronger in comics?) but it isn't fair to compare Tim or Damien to him because they are still developing.

I wasn't saying height=power. I was saying mass does. Jason doesn't appear to be bigger in muscle mass or anything.

comic art never shows mass = strength unless the guys power is super strength

Ok, i'll give you that. But i've not seen one example of Jason being stronger. Dick beat Jason in a bunch of fights and it never looked like power was a factor. I am a Jason fan so please don't take it as bashing. I just feel Dick and Jason are even in most areas but with Dick having a big edge in speed and agility.

While we're on the subject, if I had to attribute one defining strength that each Robin has had, I think I would say Dick is fastest and most agile (as previously mentioned), Jason is most resourceful/crafty (though that's questionable; they're all pretty resourceful), Tim is the best detective (duh), and Damian is the most fierce (I don't want to say he's the strongest but he's the real weapon of the four - he's the one you'd least want to meet in a dark alley).

@SupBatz said:

While we're on the subject, if I had to attribute one defining strength that each Robin has had, I think I would say Dick is fastest and most agile (as previously mentioned), Jason is most resourceful/crafty (though that's questionable; they're all pretty resourceful), Tim is the best detective (duh), and Damian is the most fierce (I don't want to say he's the strongest but he's the real weapon of the four - he's the one you'd least want to meet in a dark alley).

Jason Todd is my don't wanna see in a dark alley. I'll take a chance with a ten year before the red hood.

@richardjohngrayson said:

@SupBatz said:

While we're on the subject, if I had to attribute one defining strength that each Robin has had, I think I would say Dick is fastest and most agile (as previously mentioned), Jason is most resourceful/crafty (though that's questionable; they're all pretty resourceful), Tim is the best detective (duh), and Damian is the most fierce (I don't want to say he's the strongest but he's the real weapon of the four - he's the one you'd least want to meet in a dark alley).

Jason Todd is my don't wanna see in a dark alley. I'll take a chance with a ten year before the red hood.

You've gotta give credit where it's due though; one definately wouldn't want Jason Todd on one's bad side as well but this "ten year old" is basically a born assassin and weapon with questionable morals and a bad attitude. Certainly very dangerous.

@SupBatz no doubt.

It's not his direct predecessor, but Tim does get Dick to back down after this fight.

Thank you, CitizenBane, for your Grayson feats thread. Dick's strengths -grace, agility, speed, swift reflexive-thinking- coupled with his natural athleticism and years of experience, outweigh Jason Todd's well-rounded abilities and broader body (Jason reminds one of Jin Kazama, no?). Jason, however, excels in patient, methodical surveillance and cautious misdirection, a la David Cain. Dick would have to stay on his toes, lest he fall prey to a trap set by Jason Todd. Tim's bo skills and ability to think several steps ahead of his opponents give him a slight edge. On the other hand, Dick's superlative reflexes and attention to rhythm likely gives him the advantage against Tim, while Jason has overpowered him during their every outing. Damien....his training and education are considerable, and he's so manipulative. Could he affect Dick and Jason, crawl under their skin, like he did Tim?

@r3d_rob1n said:

It's not his direct predecessor, but Tim does get Dick to back down after this fight.

I wouldn't call that a fight. Dick is talking and blocking Red Robin is attacking.

@VampireSelektor said:

Thank you, CitizenBane, for your Grayson feats thread. Dick's strengths -grace, agility, speed, swift reflexive-thinking- coupled with his natural athleticism and years of experience, outweigh Jason Todd's well-rounded abilities and broader body (Jason reminds one of Jin Kazama, no?). Jason, however, excels in patient, methodical surveillance and cautious misdirection, a la David Cain. Dick would have to stay on his toes, lest he fall prey to a trap set by Jason Todd. Tim's bo skills and ability to think several steps ahead of his opponents give him a slight edge. On the other hand, Dick's superlative reflexes and attention to rhythm likely gives him the advantage against Tim, while Jason has overpowered him during their every outing. Damien....his training and education are considerable, and he's so manipulative. Could he affect Dick and Jason, crawl under their skin, like he did Tim?

I think we saw in B&R that Damian did get under Jason's skin. He did trap him, and I hate to say it... I think we have our first definite winner. Damian for intents and purposes beat Jason, and stole his "Red Hood." Now, I think it was carefully planned sneak attack that played to Damian's advantage, but that's just a classic Batman strategy isn't it? I can't wait for the rematch! Damian will be insane to take on Dick- the OG Boy Wonder will eat his lunch!

Will he even think about challenging Stephanie Brown? It seemed they formed a really positive bond when they teamed up as Batgirl and Robin, but I doubt he considers her a "real" Robin since her stint was such a short catastrophe. And more to the point... does Steph Brown even exist in the New 52?

@RedOwl_1 said:

@htb106 said:

Damian beat Tim once.

The current arc of Batman and Robin is about Damian taking on all the ex- Robins.

Where? I don't have a good memory

I've got a pretty good memory, but I don't recall Damian beating Tim. I do recall Tim giving Damian the beat down in both the Red Robin series and the Robin solo series around the first time Damian was introduced. I'm leaning toward the consensus of their latest battle in B&R to be an actual victory for Damian. So I score it 2-0 in favor of Tim.

Man, when I'm reading Tim's solo Robin issues... and then reading Nightwing to compare which is the better detective. It's Tim by a long shot. There are times in those Robin issues where it seems like Tim out sleuths Bruce. Not to mention that Tim figured out both Bruce and Dick's actual identities as a kid.

I think Damian "beats" Tim by getting him to accept the fact that he wanted to kill in order to avenge Artemis' death. That was his win. He claimed he would beat the past Robins in something they felt unbeatable at. Tim is constantly getting on Damian when it comes to the no killing rule. In effect Damian is trying to take that argument away from Tim. When he fought Jason it seemed more like the fight was the win because Jason is the most lethal (because of his training with guns and explosives during those lost years between death and reappearing as Red Hood) and thus could be argued the best fighter of the three. Adding insult to injury he pointed out that he had beaten Joker with a crowbar and then stole Jason's Red Hood helmet. It will be interesting to see how he beats Grayson. I wonder if that time spent with Damian as Dick's Robin still happened in the New 52. After all it does seem like a big reason why Damian isn't as bad as he used to be was because of that time spent under Grayson. As for Stephanie, she wasn't at the "Robin meeting" on the roof so I'm assuming she was never Robin, if she exists at all.

Side note: I always felt that Tim is the best detective (obvious), Jason is the best killer (unlike the others he has no restraint, so arguably best fighter???), Damian is the best Robin (skills at that age), and Dick is the best all around hero (leadership, charisma, skills, etc.)

@KNlGHTWlNG: Still I didn't felt he win...... I mean Tim did wanted to kill in avenge of Artemis death but he DID NOT killed .... Damian still loses ((Till he thinks he won but he's just being immature))

And for the rest I agree Tim is the clever, Jason is the fighter, and Dick...... mmmm..... Do I have to say one word? Damian for now it's just the immature...... still he's kinda cute :3

Dick has beat Jason and Damian.

Jason has beat Tim

Tim has beat Dick multiple times, Jason multiple times, and Damian multiple times

Stephanie has beat Damian

Damian has beat Jason and Tim via surprise and them going easy on him

As far as their strengths and such

Dick is ranked 3rd in overall potential and training. He's weak in character. He received the worst over all training due to Batman training for the first time and having no other trainers. His main advantage is that he has the most experience and is instinct based so he is quicker to react in a crisis.

Jason is ranked 4th in overall potential and training. He is pretty much all about his conviction that what he is doing is the right course of action and that makes it easier for him to come to a choice that he won't regret at some time later. His training is pretty bad due to him being a bratty kid and not caring about training. Later we are to believe that he gets excellent training after his resurrection, but that also means that his experience is low and he only wins 4th place due to how shabby Batman trained Stephanie...

Tim is ranked 1st in over all potential and training. He has a strong character, but is often enough weighed down by the moral grey he has inhabited through out his career. He has been trained the best by Batman, by Shiva, by several if not all of the masters that Bruce was trained by, Dick, and several masters that Bruce doesn't know about not to mention sparring with Cassandra on a regular basis. He also has the second most experience after Dick. He has pretty much been called the perfect sidekick, but throughout his hero career he has been largely solo. On top of all that he is on a tier of hackers that is occupied by Anarchy, Oracle, Cyborg, Brainiac, that villain guy I can't think of, and himself. His training along with his mental prowess makes him the strongest Robin, making up for any natural inclination towards the physical stuff that he may lack.

Stephanie is tied for 4th or is 5th. Mentally she is willing to push herself regardless of what others say and that really is one of her strongest points. She has a small amount of training from Batman which makes her seem like that weakest, but Barbara, Cassandra, and Dinah all trained her a bit which makes her likely one of the better trained Robins, if not for the lack of experience that her masters have with training and the lack of experience she has in general, but she is more than smart enough and determined enough to make up for those short comings. Her ability to deal with Damian could even put her in the top 3, but I'd say she just lacks the experience to win in a straight up match with them

Damian is ranked second simply for his training and where is right now, however his personality, attitude, and overall interests put him on a lower level than Tim. Damian will one day be a top brawler, but he will never be anything more because he simply doesn't have the capacity as a character as he is now to grow rival even Dick's level of detective work which is the 2nd worse of the Robins, after Damian. What puts Damian above Dick is also that he isn't a lost little puppy like Dick and Jason. He wants something and the only wa he can get it in his own eyes is to become great in every way that he can that he feels is the most effective. Likewise due to his training to just kill people and his wanting to show that he isn't a killer to others makes him be more aware in a fight. Just enough to put him over the edge as a better Robin than Dick, but Damian will never be as good as Tim because of Damian always being unsure of himself to some degree while Tim will always be sure he can do it because he's already got it all worked out before he's made the first move.

@RedOwl_1: Agree with you 100%. I don't think Damian won actually but I do think that's what he's counting.

@Durakken: Are you ranking them as heroes currently or how they were during their time as Robin? Also what issue did Stephanie beat Damian? I don't doubt you, just curious...

@KNlGHTWlNG said:

@RedOwl_1: Agree with you 100%. I don't think Damian won actually but I do think that's what he's counting.

@Durakken: Are you ranking them as heroes currently or how they were during their time as Robin? Also what issue did Stephanie beat Damian? I don't doubt you, just curious...

If I were to rank them purely as their time as Robin. Tim > Dick > Steph > Damian > Jason. I'm ranking them both as their current selves and their potential which Dick has pretty much reached his max level where as the others have room to evolve to become far far better. Dick, even at current is only better than Damian and Jason due to experience. Dick is a stagnant character who needs a very good writer to really grow him along with a company that will allow him to grow. Until that happens he really has nowhere left to go with what they are doing, which is throwing him backwards every time someone takes him to some place that could work and rehash old BS with the latest round of ripping off a story that was told that wasn't really good pre-flashpoint and splicing it onto a story that isn't very good but at least not a blatant repeat, but pretty damn close.

I remember Steph getting the upper hand on Damian but I think the fight was broken up actually. It happened in the arc right before the Ra's arc in Red Robin hit it's climax if i remember right, but I know it happened in that 12 month range of Batman/Batgirl books.

PS. Steph > Damian simply because of how steph was treated + Damian doesn't feel like he's quite there yet as a sidekick, but we also haven't seen his full run and I am pretty sure by the time we see his full run Damian will be #2 on the list rather than #4