- You aren't a "real debater" as far as i'm concerned.

- You're a child who is ignorant of the difference between a fact and an opinion and who believes his own opinion to be fact, along with other subjective drivel.

- I agree.

- I agree with your last statement at least and i do respect your stance as well.

Ignored for trolling.

- I'm trolling and you're passing off your opinions as fact like a stereotypical batman fanboy? How ironic. "Its true because i think it is! i can prove my opinion to be a fact!" What a hilarious troll.

- Oh, and you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

- I wish there was still an ignore button in this site for the likes of you who don't deserve the time of day.

Batman is a walking PIS...lol

You're missing my point. I'm not saying Batman has, can, or did, prove Shiva is the best martial artist in the World. I'm not saying Shiva is the best martial artist in the World. I'm saying, "Its a FACT that Batman SAID she was." Is he right? Is he wrong? Can he PROVE it? Not my concern or argument. You wanted facts and I pointed one out to you. Does Batman saying something about someone make it true? Of course not, but its still a fact that he said it. Its still a fact that he's said it more then once. Its still a fact that he's not alone in making that statement. Its also a fact that Shiva has the feats and track record that along with the high accolades make it easy to put her in the discussion as being the best. I'm not really sure what you're argument is? That Batman didnt say she was the best? Cause its right there in print. Thats a fact.

- Honestly man, he doesn't seem to understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. I suggest that you don't waste your time with him.

- Additionally, it's a fact that bruce was stating his opinion when he said that as the word "best" is subjective.

@thejman251: To use a sports analogy. If Michael Jordan says Kobe Bryant is the greatest active basketball player it isnt proof, it isnt fact, but its note worthy. If GSP says Anderson Silva is the greatest mixed martial artist in the World it isnt proof, it isnt fact, but its note worthy. A collection of ones peers all making similar statements pertaining to their perceived greatness or skill level shouldnt be dismissed just cause it is not fact. Their opinions matters if for no other reason then their own note worthy accomplishments and status.

- I agree completely.

@stronger:

1. Youre right of course. Sometimes Supes completely shakes telepathy off, but other times he gets mentally steamrolled, like he did in the past against Grodd.
2. He never/ should never beat Mongul EASILY. Mongul is incredibly strong and durable. He is comparable to Superman, but significantly slower.
3. I'll say two things: 1) I was admittedly unaware of that, 2) WTF would make Grundy who is often a match for Superman so much weaker?
4. Because a persons mind is constantly trying to resist the invasion occurring in their mind, so they lack their typical focus? And Batman himself references how they seemed to be sluggish.

@thejman251: Go to hell,you troll.....And stop talking about me to other users.Whatever you have to say,you will adress to me like a man....

My arguement is that people cannot base their cases in random sentences like that.

Sentences need to be proved.F.e. Deathstroke said Batman is the greatest adversairy he ever had and that the injuries he had, after their fight, were so bad that it would take him many weeks to recover.This statement is correct since,Deathstroke's injuries were severe and he was so tired and in bad shape that even a tied up guy with madiocre skill was able to beat the crap out of him.

Batman said Shiva is best martial artist ever.This can't be proved so we can't base our arguements in that.

You see what I am saying?

I never said Shiva is a ragdoll or something.Clearly she is one of the best.But not the best.I just respond to people who based their arguement on that statement.

1.If you are talking about that Max Lord instance,may I remind you that it took years of preparation for Lord to be able to mind-control Superman.No telepath has ever been able to mindcontrol Superman ever.

2.Last time I checked Mongul was bitchslapped by Hal Jordan.Do you know what happened when Superman actually crossed paths with Hal Jordan? I won't say it cause some people might get offended.:p

3.When Solomon Grundy dies,he respawns as a different version.One time he is a strong as Superman and the other he is a mere street level metahuman.One time he is dumb as f.... and the other he is smarter than the greatest minds in the world.That's his actual superpower.

4.I agree Shiva wasn't 100% at her best.Anyway,this fight is not completely irrelevant.Grodd mind-controlled Shiva for her skill.

- You don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion and hence, you don't get the privilege of being addressed like a man.

- Stop wasting my time with your asinine drivel.

@stronger: I agree and disagree. People shouldnt base their "entire" argument off that one sentence. What they should do is gather all the sentences that say the same thing thrown out by characters who are widely regarded as "elite" level martial artists in their own right and use them to "line" their argument/case. It also depends on what "best" means? Wins and losses? Who's beaten who? Who's killed more martial artists? Who has better form? Who's more knowledgeable? I mean Matt Hughes beat GSP before, doesnt mean he's a better martial artist.

@thejman251:@stronger:

You two really need to chill with all that name calling.

When captain America took out the hulk in about a page in millers ultimates

What does PIS, CIS and WIS even mean?

@extremis: Plot induced stupidity, writer induced stupidity, character induced stupidity.

@thejman251: Your hate for Batman is ridiculous.

- If only i actually hated Batman, then maybe your statement wouldn't be so utterly trivial and irrelevant.

@thejman251: Every single example of PIS/CIS/WIS that you have listed through out this thread has been disrespecting Bruce in an outright fashion. You may not hate him, but now i am curious. What do you have against him?

- Yes, because the examples of PIS/CIS/WIS that were pertaining to the Joker and not Bruce, were all about Bruce. (sarcasm here)

- I suggest that you go re-read some of my posts.

- Do you actually want to know what problems i have with Bruce?

@thejman251:

- Yes, because the examples of PIS/CIS/WIS that were pertaining to the Joker and not Bruce, were all about Bruce. (sarcasm here)

I was completely referring to your posts pertaining to the Joker. Bruce had nothing to do with what i was talking about. (More sarcasm)

- I suggest that you go re-read some of my posts.

I'll read some aloud.

"an idiotic battle from Death in the Family that Bruce should not have won."

"The only aspect of this fight that makes it slightly tolerable is the fact that Shiva was under Grodd's mind control during the fight."

"Shiva is superior to Bruce in hand to hand combat. Get over it."

- Do you actually want to know what problems i have with Bruce?

I am genuinely curious. Oh, and I want to apologize for how arrogant I sounded in my original post. I did not mean to come off that way.

- Oh, attempting to be sarcastic because you ignorantly made a false statement about my examples of CIS/PIS/WIS? Cute.

- I suggest you go learn how to read, or maybe go see someone about your apparent selective reading problem.

- In short, he's an idiot with incredibly high amounts of WIS/CIS/PIS surrounding him.

- Additionally, here is an article that i agree with:

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/6-ways-bruce-wayne-has-ruined-contemporary-comics-1455768/?page=1

@thejman251: Not to be rude either but I think you absolutely underestimate Batman.

- And that's perfectly ok.

@quintus_knightfall said:

By best martial artist,I think he means, that she can beat anyone.Who has better form is another story.

I see what you mean.I agree with most of your arguements.

I am not chilling at all,if this sucker continues to adress to me like an animal.

@thejman251: Hey,you 'tard.Of course I am talking to you.....

If you don't like Batman,that's fine by me.Don't read his comics,don't buy his products,don't watch his movies etc.You are free to hate him all you want.Anyway,that does not change the fact that you are obligated to respect people who have a different opinion with you.You busted in here and started insulting me,rejecting my arguements without paying any attention to them,and ignored my requests for a little respect.I know you are nothing more than a faggot who is only brave enough to diss people from the Internet,where you he is protected.I never insulted you(until now) and I deserved more than that.Go cry to the mods for protection now......

One more thing.

If you don't like Batman then why do you keep posting on his forum?Stop polluting the site with your crap.Go do something else (play with your d....,put things in your @$$ etc).I don't give a crap.Just don't come here,filling me with your sh!t and treating me like an animal.

@stronger: @thejman251: I asked you both nicely to chill. Next time I'm just going to give you both a time out.

Better ban me now,cause if he insults me again,I don't know what I 'll do.......

- Excuse me, when was this? I honestly don't recall.

- And now you're telling me what i do and do not like, and what to do as if i'll actually listen to you. Incredibly hilarious.

- Sir you don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion and hence, you don't qualify to have a normal conversation with me and you most certainly do not have the authority to tell me what to do..

- If you didn't know, i'm honestly a Batman fan however, your feelings are obviously hurt. However, i suggest that you stop quoting me before you get yourself in trouble.

- Oh, and i don't know what protection you think i need on the internet. Also hilarious.

@thejman251: Was the stement false? Stating a battle is "idiotic" and, instead of telling another member that Shiva is superior to Bruce, and simply stating that he should "get over it" instead of giving proper feats and scans to back up your claims is not disrespectful at all?

- I suggest you go learn how to read, or maybe go see someone about your apparent selective reading problem.

Insulting me? Really? Have you already become so angered that you have resorted to insulting me instead of trying to actually disprove my original statements?

I read all of your posts. The entire thing. We are on a Batman forum, arguing about Batman's PIS feats. It makes no sense for me not to be selective, as I do not wish to challenge any other PIS/CIS/WIS feats other than Bruce's. It is Batman's forum..

- In short, he's an idiot with incredibly high amounts of WIS/CIS/PIS surrounding him.

You have brought up merely a few feats that can easily be argued. Bruce's feats cannot be considered PIS, if they occur in a smilar fashion frequently. Most do. I can argue that Shiva isn't superior to Bruce all day. For starters, Bruce beat Prometheus in a hand-to-hand fight. Shiva lost to Prometheus's understudy in 3 moves.

@thejman251:

- What was the false statement? Did you not read your own post?

- Here is your original statement which you apparently forgot you typed after two posts or so.

- Basically disproven as "Every single example of PIS/CIS/WIS" is not related to Bruce. Q.E.D.

I read all of your posts. The entire thing. We are on a Batman forum, arguing about Batman's PIS feats. It makes no sense for me not to be selective, as I do not wish to challenge any other PIS/CIS/WIS feats other than Bruce's. It is Batman's forum..

- Is this supposed to be an excuse for being illiterate or making false statements as you did above? "Every single exampleof PIS/CIS/WIS that you have listed through out this thread"

- Try again.

You have brought up merely a few feats that can easily be argued. Bruce's feats cannot be considered PIS, if they occur in a smilar fashion frequently. Most do. I can argue that Shiva isn't superior to Bruce all day. For starters, Bruce beat Prometheus in a hand-to-hand fight. Shiva lost to Prometheus's understudy in 3 moves.

- If they can be easily argued , then feel free to attempt to do so if you actually think i'm going to change my opinion because of something you say.

- Oh, and you're attempting to tell me what i can and can not consider PIS? Good luck. Additionally, you're saying that because Bruce does ridiculous feats all the time, it's not PIS. You must believe that it's impossible for PIS to occur frequently, and that is something that most issues of Batman consist of.

- Shiva lost to Prometheus using shiva's moves? Try again.

- Moreover, you can argue what you want however, you come off as just another batman fanboy and hence, i don't really care about what you think at all.

Or, you can realize it's a conversation on the internet and be rational about it. The remarks you dropped are completely unwarranted.

1.I never told you what to do or not......I seriously don't know where you came up with that.....

2.Everything I said has been proved.I proved Shiva never stomped Batman in h2h.I proved that Loeb's run isn't PIS at all.I proved everything.So everything I said is damn fact.I don't care if I qualify.For the record,you stopped qualifying to have a debate with me the first moment you insulted me.

3.You are a Bat-fan who says Bruce is an idiot who's all about PIS?Great fan,man! You must be elected as the president of the Bat-Club.

4.Let me tell you what I mean.Insulting people though the net is much easier than insulting them in real life.Honestly,if you had said those things right in my face,I would have jumped at you,man.Now,don't start telling me you didn't insult me cause that would be damn funny.I have your posts.We were having a pretty quiet and peacefull debate and you ruined it......

I didn't insult him until now.....

This guy had been trolling me for hours,and then he started insulting me out of nowhere.What was I supposed to do?

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/how-to-deal-with-trolls-all-users-must-read-674001/#1

Ok.Guess I know how should I handle it now.

By the way,thanks for the advice.

-1. Forgot what you posted, again hmm?

Don't read his comics,

don't buy his products,

don't watch his movies etc

Stop polluting the site with your crap.

Go do something else

- And that's just in the last post alone.

-2. I never said that she ever "stomped" him in "h2h" kid, and neither did you. The only thing you said is "prove that shiva beat batman in h2h".

- Loebs run not being PIS IS YOUR OPINION. It's not a fact as PIS is subjective. Again, you don't know the difference between a fact an an opinion. And you're complaining about being treated like an animal?

- Again, i , along with many other users, think Loeb's run (Superman/Batman) was PIS. Sorry, but you don't have any say over our opinions. Oh wait, you don't know what that is and you think every piece of subjective fatuous nonsense that comes out of your mouth can be proven for a fact.

- I'm guessing that you think things are factually good or bad? Surprise, surprise.

- You proved nothing as nearly all of your drivel is subjective nonsense.

- 3. You don't have a say over whether or not i'm a fan or not. It's the same way you can't comprehend the difference between a fact and an opinion.

-4.

I would have jumped at you,man

- Evidently, you are a child in real life , or you are simply an incredibly immature adult.

- I don't know what country you live in but over here, that would be an assault,aggravated assault,etc charge. Hence, that would be completely hilarious if you got yourself arrested over a Batman conversation. That shows how competent you actually are.

Now,don't start telling me you didn't insult me cause that would be damn funny

- I hardly care if you've been insulted by my posts. In fact, i don't care about anything you think or feel in the least as you don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

- Learn the difference between a fact and an opinion, learn that your opinion is not fact and that facts aren't subjective, and stop attempting to tell me what to do, and i'll think about entertaining your asinine and incredibly inane drivel.

We were having a pretty quiet and peacefull debate and you ruined it......

- No, you're an asinine troll who: had the audacity to tell me what to do multiple times, had the audacity to ignorantly attempt to assert his opinion as fact, and doesn't know the difference between a fact an opinion.

- Again, you don't have the basic common sense of debating which is knowing the difference between a fact and an opinion and you're apparently another illogical,among other adjectives i want to use here, batman fanboy.. Hence, your opinion is worth less than that of a cockroach to me.

- Additionally, you had the audacity to speak about "real debaters" when you don't even know the difference between a fact and an opinion. You've wasted my time on multiple threads with your asinine and fatuous behaviour when you don't have some of the basic skills of debating.

- Therefore, i'm going to ask you nicely to stop wasting my time by attempting to push your ignorant opinion on others as fact and tell me what to do on the internet all the while, denying everything you're doing like a fool.

- I've been "trolling" when you insulted me by having the audacity to attempt to tell me what to do, as well as attempt to force your opinion on me as fact multiple times?

- I'm sorry but even if you believe the utterly fatuous drivel that is coming out of your mouth, i suggest that you do not insult me by having the audacity to attempt to tell me what to do on the internet, and having the audacity to attempt to force your asinine and ignorant subjective opinion as fact over me.

- I suggest you get some common sense and learn the difference between a fact and an opinion, and also learn how to handle the internet and people that share differing opinions.

- Also, stop wasting my time, you don't even have basic common sense being that you are ignorant of the difference between a fact and an opinion. The only place "conversations" with you ever seem to go is you claiming that you've proved everything you've said, when you've uttered nothing but subjective fatuous and inane drivel. Why does this happen? Well, it's because you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact.

- Moreover, you continue to insult me and my intelligence by having the audacity to attempt to tell me what to do , and attempting to push your fatuous and illogical fanboyish opinion onto me and others as fact. Oh, lets not forget that you continue to deny everything you've been doing like some kind of innocent child even though everyone has already seen where your mind is from your hilarious posts above.

What's next? You're going to claim that all of your opinions are facts,again and that you've proven all of your opinions and subjective drivelto be a fact, again? Surprise, surprise.

- In short, you're going to cry wolf as that's evidently, the only thing you are actually capable of doing as we already know that you are unable to have a logical conversation because that would require -- wait for it!! -- logic!!!

- I'm the troll now? Of course you would cry wolf as you aren't capable of doing anything else.

- I suggest you go learn the difference between a fact and an opinion.

1.You are the troll,of course.I never cried to anyone.You just made it up with your mind.

2.I suggest that you should learn how to accept proved facts and how to lose a debate.

3.Yeah,yeah insult me some more.That's a man's way to do it.You handled me the right way.You are the man!Here where you are protected.

It's not about a Batman conversation.It's about the fact that I am not tolarating the insults of any kind.It may not be a physical assault,but it is an assault.I have assaulted and I would respond back.I don't care if I got arrested or not.I'd still had the pleasure of beating you up,cause you deserve it.Noone has the right to adress to people like you do.

I don't know what society you live in,but mine is ten times more civilized and advanced than yours.At least people have respect for each other.

4.You are the one talking about common sense and deabating when your vocabulary is limited in two words?Man,just don't post back to me.You don't deserve it.

5.Now seriously cut the crap.I never insulted you(at least until you did).I never forced you to do anything.Get real.We are communicating from the Internet!My words have no power on you.And then you talk to me about common sense?Hell yeah!Nice joke!

6.I am competitive,not competent.Logic is something you clearly out of.So don't bother talking about it.

7.Shiva never beat Batman in h2h.Regardless of your claims,you still have not proved it.

It doesn't mean Loeb's run is PIS only because you didn't like it.

I already explained to another user why it isn't.

8.Seriously I've had enough of this.Don't bother posting back.

@thejman251: @stronger: Let's ends this now, the mods are watching.

- It's over now as i don't see a reason to entertain this nonsense anymore.

@moon_bat_87: Darkseid was probably holding back, because Batman was threatening to destroy Apokolips.

I agree with you...It has been said multiple times on different occasions that Shiva is the best H2H combatant on the planet.Bruce and her are NOT equals and she stomps him in H2H...(however,it's still POSSIBLE for him to beat her,but not that great of a chance). In fact it's basically well-known that she is (arguably) one of the greatest H2H combatants in the world (the best even)!

- Exactly.

- I completely agree.

It has been said, but it has not been proven by visible feats. I mean I could say "Jimmy Olsen can bench press 500 lbs" but until he does it and people see him do it it is just something I say. The clear evidence must not depend on sayings but actions via Scans.

There is not a single time that she has "stomped" him. Please provide scans if I am wrong.

- It's an opinion as the word best is subjective. What are you speaking about?

- I suppose that you didn't read Nightwing 0 in the New 52? That would never be a fact, at best it would be a consensus.

- I'll quote myself for scans of Bruce's "stomping".

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

Deathstroke,Bronze Tiger,Prometheus etc.

@thejman251 said:

@sandiego008 said:

I'm curious, minus bane who else has bested or at least drawed batman in random encounters when batman was unaware of the oppositions abilities?

- Deathstroke, Shiva, Jason, and the list goes on.

The only one corrected is Deathstroke.

Jason beat a holding back Batman with prep,and the best Shiva has done is stalemating him.

- " A holding back Batman" is your opinion.

- Additionally, you are ignorant of the details surrounding the New 52 encounter as they have not been revealed yet. Get over it.

- Shiva has handed Bruce his ass, and is superior to Bruce. Try again, or get over it.

@thejman251: No I did not read Nightwing 0. Could you explain what that pertains to in this discussion?

Also why did you even bother to show the scans with Jason once again when you know for a fact Bruce can defeat Jason as we have seen very recently.

And could you provide scans of those full fights with Shiva? In order for someone to be stomped, they have to have been utterly trashed. Those scans simply show Shiva winning. I do not dispute that Shiva won, but I do dispute that Bruce was stomped.

- I'm sorry what did we see very recently? Jason beating Bruce senseless and then leaving? Oh, and we also know that Jason can defeat Bruce. See Bruce above at gunpoint on the ground.

- Regardless, this post was from another thread. I suggest that you do not bring that conversation up.

- So you want me to attempt to satisfy your personal definition of "stomping"?

- The slang word is subjective, so i'm not going to attempt to convince you. I'll simply show you the pages.

- I don't know what you call that but Bruce went down within two pages.

Okay if you call what happened between Jason and Bruce, Jason beating Bruce Senseless....then you need to go back and look at the "fight" Bruce let Jason punch him, and Jason didnt even knock him off his feet. And yes Jason beat Bruce in that one fight. Bruce is vastly superior to Jason in terms of martial arts, equipment, resources, and so forth. Jason vs Bruce = Bruce 8/10. I will even grant you 7/10 just for the heck of it.

Suggest I not bring what up?

Also Bruce said "she may be" the greatest fighter in Batman #509. Not SHE IS. He is also able to hurt her during the training. I would also suggests you read the dialogue in Batman #427. Bruce calls her his equal, but suggests that he can defeat her because he is physically stronger. Also in Legends of the Dark Knight #62 Bruce is able to fool Shiva into believing that he used her signature move, when he actually used a modified form of that move. That suggest that Bruce is able to one up Shiva's own ability to spot strikes and moves.

And yeah that is not a "stomping". Bruce got hit with a poisoned shuriken. Then we she her kick him. And we see nothing else. We have no idea how the full fight went down. We saw the initial attack, one kick which presumably was the fight ender. We didn't see anything else. Again we are talking about who is better in hand to hand. Shiva won that because Bruce was clearly poisoned with a very potent substance. Pure hand to hand:

Now before you argue that Shiva's skills were reduced, I will point you to comments I have made before about Nightshade's powers which Grodd was able to make full use of, in fact maybe use to better extent than Nightshade herself did. Bruce's comments during the above fight with Shiva indicate that he does not know who is truly superior. Also the dialogue suggests that the mind control is not effecting her skills. This along with the comments from Batman #427, and comments made on other occasions suggest they are essentially equals. But I have consistently granted you that Shiva is superior. But I also would say that the evidence suggests otherwise.