Greatest PIS moments?

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#1 Posted by yolo_el (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Which are the strongest foes Bats has beaten against impossible odds?

#3 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

- Here you go, an idiotic battle from Death in the Family that Bruce should not have won.

- This some of the most inane and idiotic WIS and CIS i have ever seen.

- It's no secret that Shiva is superior to Bruce, so i'm almost offended that this idiotic author had the audacity to suggest that Bruce could end a fight with Shiva at will, when she should be eating him alive.

- I mean, what's next? He drops deathstroke in five seconds, and puts Darkseid in a coma?

#4 Posted by Black_Arrow (1896 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: In addition to that also see Superman Batman #3.

Bruce has defeated her twice in Batman #427 and Superman Batman #3.

You come across very anti-Batman in several threads I have seen you post in. You over exaggerate how "insane" and "idiotic" Batman defeating Shiva is. His skill set is extremely close to hers. Also though Cassandra lost to Shiva several times, Cassandra was able to defeat Shiva. And Batman defeated Cassandra once in Detective Comics #734.

Anyway, I know that your going to rant against me now, but that's okay. Sometime you should perform a comprehensive search through all of Batman's feats and maybe you wont have such a problem with the possibility of Batman defeating Shiva.

#6 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: he was helped by robin

- Yes, i am aware however, i still consider this WIS and CIS.

@thejman251: In addition to that also see Superman Batman #3.

Bruce has defeated her twice in Batman #427 and Superman Batman #3.

You come across very anti-Batman in several threads I have seen you post in. You over exaggerate how "insane" and "idiotic" Batman defeating Shiva is. His skill set is extremely close to hers. Also though Cassandra lost to Shiva several times, Cassandra was able to defeat Shiva. And Batman defeated Cassandra once in Detective Comics #734.

Anyway, I know that your going to rant against me now, but that's okay. Sometime you should perform a comprehensive search through all of Batman's feats and maybe you wont have such a problem with the possibility of Batman defeating Shiva.

- Seeing as Shiva being superior to Bruce is common knowledge, of course i have a problem with him beating someone that he shouldn't be able to beat. Common sense. 2+2=__??

- You do realize that bother Shiva and her daughter are superior to Bruce don't you? Moving on.

- Me over exaggerating how "insane" and "idiotic" Batman defeating Shiva is is your opinion. I've already stated mine, and it's not about to change because you dislike it.

- Sometime, i would imagine that you should stop speaking out of ignorance as if i am not aware of Bruce's "feats" or as if i give a damn about them.

#7 Posted by Black_Arrow (1896 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: batman and robin can beat shiva if they work together as they always do

#8 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: batman and robin can beat shiva if they work together as they always do

- I suppose that it's much more plausible than Bruce beating her by himself.

- On another note, here is another scan in which an idiotic author had the audacity to disrespect Shiva.

- The only aspect of this fight that makes it slightly tolerable is the fact that Shiva was under Grodd's mind control during the fight.

#9 Edited by youmessinwithme (1083 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman beating shiva is not nearly as ridiculous as some of the other things he's done.

#10 Posted by Alak (867 posts) - - Show Bio

Am I the only one here who thinks that Batman beating Shiva is totally plausible? She may have more experience, better technique, and might even edge him out on striking speed, but you're talking about a 6'2" 210 lbs combatant who with armor that's strong enough to take hollow point rounds. He's at least two weight classes above her, and all it'd take is one blow to the head to KO her. If Shiva beats Batman, I'll believe it. If Batman beats Shiva, I'll also believe it. Either way, it won't be a close match because rarely any H2H fight between two highly trained combatants is. With that being said, here's the PIS moments that come to mind:

  • Batman beating Shiva in a matter of seconds.
  • Batman being able to fight crime with only a few hours of sleep in an entire week.
  • Batman kicking Spectre (although, he didn't actually hurt him).
  • Batman punching Orion and actually hurting him (it was a sucker punch).
  • Batman dodging Nightwing's every attack even though it's been acknowledged that Nightwing is the faster one.
  • Batman actually being able to stun Hulk with a kick to the solar plexus (non-canon).
  • Batman being able to take a hit from Hawkman's mace without dying.
  • Batman being able to take a hit from Martian Manhunter without dying.
  • Batman being able to take a punch from Wonder Woman without dying (although, she may have been holding back).
  • Batman being able to take a punch from Superman without dying.
  • Batman being able to take a hit from Darkseid without dying (even with armor).
  • Batman being smashed through brick/concrete walls and getting back up.
  • Batman being able to hack into alien software (this also applies to all other humans who can do this).
  • Batman being able to built a ton of crazy expensive suits/gear/ships/etc. with Wayne Industries funds without being audited or investigated.
  • Batman being able to punch criminals through brick walls without killing said criminals.
  • Batman being able to survive having a wooden stick rammed through his torso and continuing to beat up a fighter who already superior to him from the start (haven't read this story in a while, so I may be forgetting something important).
  • Batman somehow having the time to workout 7 days a week without rest, and then proceeding to fight crime for a couple hours throughout the night.

Those are the only ones that I can list right now. I'm not sure which one is the "greatest" so I just mentioned all that I could. It should be noted, however, that most of Batman's PIS feats are performed in crossovers (Superman/Batman and JL titles especially). Most of his solo stories are in fact pretty grounded. Come to think of it, New 52 Batman hasn't really done much in the Justice League series (at least from what I've heard, I'm not following JL) so DC may be trying to keep his showings consistent between books.

#11 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251

Actually simply because someone is "superior" does not mean that they cannot be beaten, especially by someone who is extremely close to their skill set. If you look at real life fighters such as George St. Pierre, he is a superior fighter to many, but he has lost to fighters who are close to his skill set, a good example was Pierre's loss to Hughes. So yes Shiva is superior in skill, I have acknowledged that, but that does not mean Bruce cannot defeat her. Skill sets are not wooden.

Do you understand that Bruce defeated both Cassandra and Shiva before?

Please explain how we should consider your opinion to be valid? You seem to ignore clear feats and use hyperbolic language to describe things without any supportive evidence to use such language.

And you should give a darn about Bruce's feats because they are exactly the topic on hand.

Also there is no solid evidence to support that Shiva was under Grodd's control. It is suggested but not proven. Also even if she was under his control, that does not at all mean her skills were diminished or lessened in anyway.

@alak: I totally agree with you regarding your commentary on Bruce vs Shiva.

And I agree with only a few of your PIS examples. However his durability feats and endurance feats, along with strength and intelligence feats though they may seem outlandish are not PIS because they are consistently portrayed in a consistent manner. Just as Superman's strength feats are generally consistent, most of Batman's feats are as well.

Out of your list I would say only the following are PIS:

  • Batman kicking Spectre (although, he didn't actually hurt him).
  • Batman punching Orion and actually hurting him (it was a sucker punch).
  • Batman actually being able to stun Hulk with a kick to the solar plexus (non-canon).
  • Batman being able to take a hit from Darkseid without dying (even with armor).

Now, I know, I am a Batman Fan Boy. Yes I get it already. But the majority of the feats you gave are consistently shown to be well within Batman's abilities. Though some do not make sense because he is a human, because they are consistent I cannot agree they are PIS.

Regarding the Darkseid hit, the only and I mean the only way we can almost excuse that is that Batman's armour from his suit along with the armour taken from Apocalypse was just enough to keep him alive. And I mean barely. But I left it on the list because I highly doubt Darkseid was holding back.

Saying that however, I do think that if Batman were to take a full force punch from Superman (which to my knowledge has never happened) and survive that would be truly PIS.


#12 Posted by Alak (867 posts) - - Show Bio

@moon_bat_87

Completely understandable. PIS is a really subject label anyhow so for two people to disagree on what's PIS and what isn't is inevitable. For example, I consider nearly everything Hulk does to be PIS despite the repetition of his feats, but I know a ton of comic book readers would disagree with me. I, too, believe that the things Batman does on multiple occasions should be considered are part of his capabilities, and I'd use them in battle topics. I just happen to think of them as PIS at the same time.

#13 Posted by KnightRise (4753 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak said:

@moon_bat_87

Completely understandable. PIS is a really subject label anyhow so for two people to disagree on what's PIS and what isn't is inevitable. For example, I consider nearly everything Hulk does to be PIS despite the repetition of his feats, but I know a ton of comic book readers would disagree with me. I, too, believe that the things Batman does on multiple occasions should be considered are part of his capabilities, and I'd use them in battle topics. I just happen to think of them as PIS at the same time.

Le this

#14 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

pretty much everything batman does

#15 Edited by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio


Do you understand that Bruce defeated both Cassandra and Shiva before?

I've actually broken this down before. I assume you are referring to the first time they crossed paths yes? There is an underlining context in that exchange. If you follow the dialog and the flashback panels its clear that it is not a "fight" between Batman and Cass. Its Batman showing her that:

A: He was also trained by David Cain

B: He can beat David Cain

Cass didnt think Batman was skilled enough to take Cain out. So she attacked him using "Cains" moves (as shown in the transitioning flashback to present, panels) at which time Batman countered, and displayed the trademark "throat" rip that Cain taught Cass. I guess that was enough to convince her he could take Cain. They fought again (under the influence of a drug) in Batgirl the early issues of her solo series. She stalemated him. But this was before the end of arc. All through her solo series it shows the evolution of her combat expertise at the end of which she snaps Shiva's neck. So even if for the sake of argument we say Batman beat Cass in their first meeting its still a slanted perspective as she wasnt the Cass she is today. She hadnt been trained by Shiva, watched Batman's extensive martial arts disk, copied Jokerized Shadow Thief's ninja technique, or started to copy Lady Shiva's moves yet. She was a little girl in dirty clothes who had been living on streets getting by on raw talent.

#16 Posted by Tohoma (1172 posts) - - Show Bio

This....

#17 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

- I suppose i'll add on.

- The joker having a cruise missile in DITF

- The joker successfully hiding the cruise missile from "The world's greatest detective"

- The joker successfully smuggling the cruise missile out of the country.

- Batman having magical truth serum

- Batman having "Bat gliders" and a "Bat-helicopter" in the middle east

- Jason's Body not being completely charred at all and only bloody after being in a life ending explosion.

- The joker getting diplomatic immunity simply for the hell of it.

- Superman sucking all of the air in the conference/meeting to stop Joker's gas from killing everyone and there still being air in the room for people to breathe.

- The joker getting shot and subsequently falling into the ocean, and then magically escaping from Batman AND SUPERMAN.

- The Joker dropping off the face of the earth for a year and the "world's greatest detective" being unable to find him or do a damned thing about the matter.

- The joker arbitrarily, and in a seemingly omniscient manner, knows where Tim is and "kidnaps him". Yes, he kidnaps Red Robin. Completely believeable. (obvious sarcasm)

- The Joker, in a seemingly omniscient manner (again), knows where Kori and Jason's Island is and goes there to get a Red Hood helmet. Completely believeable. (obvious sarcasm)

- The Joker magically happens to be standing on an adjacent rooftop in gotham when Jason and Isabel land on top of her apartment.

- The Joker manages to drug Isabel in between the time in which she and Jason finish having intercourse and the time in which Jason gets out of the shower,, AND he manages to hotwire the television to speak through it to Jason in said miniscule timeframe. More idiocy from the joker.

- The joker happens to know what car Jason will get in when he leaves Isabel's apartment.

- The joker magically, and in a seemingly extremely omniscient manner, knows where everyone is and is able to conduct plans for everyone in the bat family, and is able to be everywhere at once to enact them.

- The Joker arbitrarily and randomly kidnaps Barbara's mother.

- Batman believes the Joker after seeing images on the screen and sits in the electric chair.

- The Joker's master plan is foiled by a water pipe that just happens to be over the table. So this imbecile can make illogical, and impossible plans and carry them out and yet he can't figure out to not put his flammable table under a water pipe.

#18 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: It's not PIS.He was helped by Robin.After Batman and Shiva are equals in h2h.

@tohoma said:

This....

Agreed.

Also kicking the Spectre is massiva PIS.

@black_arrow said:

@thejman251: batman and robin can beat shiva if they work together as they always do

- I suppose that it's much more plausible than Bruce beating her by himself.

- On another note, here is another scan in which an idiotic author had the audacity to disrespect Shiva.

- The only aspect of this fight that makes it slightly tolerable is the fact that Shiva was under Grodd's mind control during the fight.

Be careful,what you are writing.Loeb's run on Batman was EPIC.Only when Loeb went to Marvel comics he started producing crap.

#19 Edited by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Tim Drake beating Lady Shiva cause he poisoned her hotel chocolate the night before.
#20 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251: It's not PIS.He was helped by Robin.After Batman and Shiva are equals in h2h.

@thejman251 said:

@black_arrow said:

@thejman251: batman and robin can beat shiva if they work together as they always do

- I suppose that it's much more plausible than Bruce beating her by himself.

- On another note, here is another scan in which an idiotic author had the audacity to disrespect Shiva.

- The only aspect of this fight that makes it slightly tolerable is the fact that Shiva was under Grodd's mind control during the fight.

Be careful,what you are writing.Loeb's run on Batman was EPIC.Only when Loeb went to Marvel comics he started producing crap.

Batman and Shiva are equals in h2h.

- You have some nerve. Shiva is superior to Bruce in hand to hand combat. Get over it. And Jason helping Bruce beat shiva is still PIS as far as i'm concerned. Get over it.

Be careful,what you are writing.Loeb's run on Batman was EPIC.Only when Loeb went to Marvel comics he started producing crap.

- I don't give a damn about Loeb's run, or what you think of it. I'm not about to conform my opinion to yours simply to appease you or some fanboys.

- If you don't like my opinion, then I suggest that you get over it instead of having the audacity to attempt to dictate my opinion for me.

@thejman251

Actually simply because someone is "superior" does not mean that they cannot be beaten, especially by someone who is extremely close to their skill set. If you look at real life fighters such as George St. Pierre, he is a superior fighter to many, but he has lost to fighters who are close to his skill set, a good example was Pierre's loss to Hughes. So yes Shiva is superior in skill, I have acknowledged that, but that does not mean Bruce cannot defeat her. Skill sets are not wooden.

Do you understand that Bruce defeated both Cassandra and Shiva before?

Please explain how we should consider your opinion to be valid? You seem to ignore clear feats and use hyperbolic language to describe things without any supportive evidence to use such language.

And you should give a darn about Bruce's feats because they are exactly the topic on hand.

Also there is no solid evidence to support that Shiva was under Grodd's control. It is suggested but not proven. Also even if she was under his control, that does not at all mean her skills were diminished or lessened in anyway.

- Clearly it doesn't mean that Bruce cannot defeat her as is plot armor , along with the WIS and CIS that are obviously in his favor, have clearly enabled him to do so in the past.

- Oh, and Bruce's skills being "extremely close" to Shiva's is your opinion. Bruce doesn't even make my top five list of martial artists in the world. The guy might make top 8 - top 10.

- Do you understand that i couldn't care less what Bruce has done using WIS/CIS/PIS? Evidently not.

- Why you should consider my opinion to be valid? I don't give a damn about what you think either way. You seem to be a Batman fanboy regardless, so i'm not about to waste my time.

- Telling me what i should and shouldn't "give a darn" about. Ignorant. The topic on hand is PIS moments that are not confined to Bruce. Try again.

- There is evidence and it's worth more than your seemingly fanboyish opinion will ever be to me.

- In this case, even Bruce's and Grodd's words suggest otherwise. Feel free to argue with them.

- If they weren't, then this is an even greater moment of WIS and CIS. Pick your poison.

- Oh, and having the audacity to have Bruce say "it's over" to a being that's superior to him, what inane drivel Loeb.

#21 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251:

1.Prove Shiva,is better than Batman in h2h combat.

2.Out of all the PIS Batman is been through over the years,you picked the Batman vs Lady Shiva fight which is not in the slightest a PIS sample? Explain why you think it's PIS.

#22 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

1.Prove Shiva,is better than Batman in h2h combat.

2.Out of all the PIS Batman is been through over the years,you picked the Batman vs Lady Shiva fight which is not in the slightest a PIS sample? Explain why you think it's PIS.

- 1. Prove that Shiva is superior to Bruce?

- Rather than doing that, i'll give you some food for thought that you will no doubt brush aside to support Bruce as you usually do in your seemingly fanboyish opinion.

- Please feel free to disagree with Bruce himself.

- 2. "which is not in the slightest a PIS sample?" What is and isn't PIS is subjective. Therefore, you have no authority over what i do or do not deem PIS.

- Additionally, i've already explained why i deemed it WIS/CIS/PIS above.

- Therefore, i suggest you go re read the thread as i've already answered this question.

#23 Edited by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@quintus_knightfall

: You of course are correct. And I would agree with your conclusions. However it leaves the possibility that he could defeat her. That was my primary point.

@thejman251

: Note that the scan where Bruce is talking about her is prior to him training with her. Regarding Grodd's mindcontrol, I said above even if he was controlling Shiva, it does not at all mean her powers in combat are reduced. Keep look at Nightshade's use of powers for example, they are being used to their full.

Also you are coming across rather rude, and I see no reason for you to be writing replies in the tone that you have so far. We are all fans of comic books here, and there is no need to be aggressive. If you want people to respect you and take your opinions seriously, maybe tone down the level of hostile posts. You claim you are not going to waste your time on "fan-boys" like me, but yet you do. Simply slinging the title "fan-boy" around accomplishes nothing and does not promote dialogue. One could label you a "Shiva Fan-boy" but it would be useless to do so and it would not promote any sort of constructive discussion.

Every character obviously has plot armour and CIS/PIS/WIS to some degree. Though we can discard the extreme exceptions as obvious rubbish, we cannot ignore or discard consistent feats and abilities no matter how silly they may seem to us. Additionally we cannot judge character's abilities based off of what we think of them or just quotes from characters. Rather we must include scans of both feats and personal comments to form opinions. For example, Superman has been quoted as saying Batman is the most dangerous man in the World. That is a bold statement. And simply because Superman says it does not make it true. However what does the evidence say, meaning what do the feats say? I would argue that based off of feats Superman's quote is very accurate.

So when I say Batman can defeat Shiva that is a claim. Now Batman is more dangerous than Shiva, that is Superman's claim. Now if we look at the feats, it is clear that Batman clearly has the potential and capability to defeat Shiva in multiple ways. Naked in the middle of a pit arena with no weapons or anything else, yes Shiva wins. I would say 65% of the time she wins. But random encounter with Batman having his traditional gear and Shiva hers, it drops to 50-60% Shiva wins. If Bruce make uses of all of his arsenal of gadgets, he wins about 50-55% of the time. See because very often it is PIS or CIS that disables Bruce from using gadgets which he should use in order to win.

So to claim as you do that Batman defeating Shiva amounts to the greatest level of PIS we have seen is simply not supported by the facts and the evidence. Taking a hit from Darkseid or punching and hurting Orion are much greater levels of PIS.

#24 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

Its all good guys. No reason to get hostile over a difference of opinion.

#25 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

1.Prove Shiva,is better than Batman in h2h combat.

2.Out of all the PIS Batman is been through over the years,you picked the Batman vs Lady Shiva fight which is not in the slightest a PIS sample? Explain why you think it's PIS.

- 1. Prove that Shiva is superior to Bruce?

- Rather than doing that, i'll give you some food for thought that you will no doubt brush aside to support Bruce as you usually do in your seemingly fanboyish opinion.

- Please feel free to disagree with Bruce himself.

- 2. "which is not in the slightest a PIS sample?" What is and isn't PIS is subjective. Therefore, you have no authority what i do or do not deem PIS.

- Additionally, i've already explained why i deemed it WIS/CIS/PIS above.

- Therefore, i suggest you go re read the thread as i've already answered this question.

Sentences have been proven wrong almost every time.Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

As for the others,I am not even going to post back.....

#26 Edited by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: Well I agree about characters saying things that arent always true, one could take into consideration the vast amount of characters all saying the same thing. Bruce has stated more then once that Shiva may be the best martial artist alive, as has Tim, Bronze Tiger, etc. Having said that, in comics I dont really believe there is such a thing as "the best martial artist." Its always fluctuating and writers are just as human as you or I and have favorites. In one comic Nightwing cant lay a finger on Cass Cain and then in another he bloodies her. In one comic Shiva is ranked (by Batman) as the number one martial artist and then in another she gets owned by a chair. More often then not dialog is used to elevate the status of a character so when the main, or other, character beats them it instantly legitimizes their own credibility.

#27 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: Well I agree about characters saying things that arent always true, one could take into consideration the vast amount of characters all saying the same thing. Bruce has stated more then once that Shiva may be the best martial artist alive, as has Tim, Bronze Tiger, etc. Having said that, in comics I dont really believe there is such a thing as "the best martial artist." Its always fluctuating and writers are just as human as you or I and have favorites. In one comic Nightwing cant lay a finger on Cass Cain and then in another he bloodies her. In one comic Shiva is ranked (by Batman) as the number one martial artist and then in another she gets owned by a chair. More often then not dialog is used to elevate the status of a character so when the main, or other, character beats them it instantly legitimizes their own credibility.

I see your point.

All I can say is that real debaters argue with facts and not statements.Shiva has never actually beaten Batman in a fair h2h contest.Nobody can prove this and nobody will,until it happens some day.If it happens.

#28 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

#29 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@moon_bat_87 said:

@quintus_knightfall

: You of course are correct. And I would agree with your conclusions. However it leaves the possibility that he could defeat her. That was my primary point.

@thejman251

: Note that the scan where Bruce is talking about her is prior to him training with her. Regarding Grodd's mindcontrol, I said above even if he was controlling Shiva, it does not at all mean her powers in combat are reduced. Keep look at Nightshade's use of powers for example, they are being used to their full.

Also you are coming across rather rude, and I see no reason for you to be writing replies in the tone that you have so far. We are all fans of comic books here, and there is no need to be aggressive. If you want people to respect you and take your opinions seriously, maybe tone down the level of hostile posts. You claim you are not going to waste your time on "fan-boys" like me, but yet you do. Simply slinging the title "fan-boy" around accomplishes nothing and does not promote dialogue. One could label you a "Shiva Fan-boy" but it would be useless to do so and it would not promote any sort of constructive discussion.

Every character obviously has plot armour and CIS/PIS/WIS to some degree. Though we can discard the extreme exceptions as obvious rubbish, we cannot ignore or discard consistent feats and abilities no matter how silly they may seem to us. Additionally we cannot judge character's abilities based off of what we think of them or just quotes from characters. Rather we must include scans of both feats and personal comments to form opinions. For example, Superman has been quoted as saying Batman is the most dangerous man in the World. That is a bold statement. And simply because Superman says it does not make it true. However what does the evidence say, meaning what do the feats say? I would argue that based off of feats Superman's quote is very accurate.

So when I say Batman can defeat Shiva that is a claim. Now Batman is more dangerous than Shiva, that is Superman's claim. Now if we look at the feats, it is clear that Batman clearly has the potential and capability to defeat Shiva in multiple ways. Naked in the middle of a pit arena with no weapons or anything else, yes Shiva wins. I would say 65% of the time she wins. But random encounter with Batman having his traditional gear and Shiva hers, it drops to 50-60% Shiva wins. If Bruce make uses of all of his arsenal of gadgets, he wins about 50-55% of the time. See because very often it is PIS or CIS that disables Bruce from using gadgets which he should use in order to win.

So to claim as you do that Batman defeating Shiva amounts to the greatest level of PIS we have seen is simply not supported by the facts and the evidence. Taking a hit from Darkseid or punching and hurting Orion are much greater levels of PIS.

- Yes, i'm aware. However, i would imagine that there is a reason that Bruce went to her for training.

- Apparently Bruce defeating Shiva with Jason's help and in a situation in which Grodd's mind control is heavily implied aside from other WIS and CIS that may or may not have been present are consistent "feats" for you.

- Additionally, being that Grodd was using them, i doubt that Grodd would understand how to use Shiva's skills as well as Shiva herself. There's also the fact that Mongul and Shiva were stomped with ease.

- Yes, i find it to be WIS,CIS, and PIS when one "stomps" someone who is superior to oneself with ease. Surprise, surprise.

- Also, i would imagine that Bruce would know if Shiva was superior to him or not after facing her before.

- When you say that Bruce can defeat Shiva, it's already been proven to be true regardless of whatever WIS, CIS, PIS, or idiotic circumstance that was present at the time. Hence, why i never argued if it was possible.

- I would say that Shiva has the ability to kill Bruce in a multitude of ways. Additionally, i would imagine that if Shiva wanted Bruce dead, he would be as dead as Thomas and Martha wayne.

- I find it to be extreme WIS and CIS that Bruce could defeat someone who is superior to him without any gadgets at all. Hence, my opinion. Moreover, very little was stopping Bruce from using gadgets in his encounters with Shiva.

- Furthermore, i would imagine that Shiva would win the majority of the time even if Bruce has his gadgets and especially so in the New 52.

- I wouldn't claim that it's the greatest amount of PIS however, i would say that it's pretty high on the list. Additionally, said events being greater levels of PIS are your opinion.

#30 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

I don't know if any of you guys ever been in a courthouse,but when you are there,it doesn't matter what is true or should be true ,it only matters what you can prove.

That's what I had to say for now.Have a good day or night,whenever you are guys........

#31 Posted by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: Looks around This is Comicvine. In a courthouse they're dealing with "reality." Here we're dealing with fiction. Fiction that is constant flux. Facts that are dismissed, ignored, overlooked, retcon, etc. But even in a courthouse they get it wrong so I'm not sure if thats even a viable comparison.

No doubt son, peace.

#32 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

1.Prove Shiva,is better than Batman in h2h combat.

2.Out of all the PIS Batman is been through over the years,you picked the Batman vs Lady Shiva fight which is not in the slightest a PIS sample? Explain why you think it's PIS.

- 1. Prove that Shiva is superior to Bruce?

- Rather than doing that, i'll give you some food for thought that you will no doubt brush aside to support Bruce as you usually do in your seemingly fanboyish opinion.

- Please feel free to disagree with Bruce himself.

- 2. "which is not in the slightest a PIS sample?" What is and isn't PIS is subjective. Therefore, you have no authority what i do or do not deem PIS.

- Additionally, i've already explained why i deemed it WIS/CIS/PIS above.

- Therefore, i suggest you go re read the thread as i've already answered this question.

Sentences have been proven wrong almost every time.Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

As for the others,I am not even going to post back.....

- Proven wrong? Yes, his opinion has been proven "wrong" in your opinion. Understood.

- Bruce being the most dangerous man in the world, is subjective. Hence, it's not true or false. Try again.

- Powerful is an ambiguous and subjective word. Again, not true or false. Try again.

- As for the others, don't even bother posting back as you are evidently extremely ignorant of the difference between a fact and an opinion.

- Regardless, i'll take the opinion of the character himself about something related to him over that of some inane and illogical fanboy any day. Moreover, the opinion of the character about something related to them holds more importance and weight than that of some fanboy's ever will as far as i'm concerned..

#33 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@quintus_knightfall said:

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

I don't know if any of you guys ever been in a courthouse,but when you are there,it doesn't matter what is true or should be true ,it only matters what you can prove.

That's what I had to say for now.Have a good day or night,whenever you are guys........

- In court, what matters is what the Judge or jury deems sufficient evidence to condemn something or someone for an act. Thus, it's not necessarily fact.

- Regardless, courts have been shown to make incorrect and false rulings and therefore, your point is trivial.

- Try again.

- Oh, and you have the audacity to say that it "it only matters what you can prove"?

Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

- Prove that Batman's opinion is "wrong". I'm waiting.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

- Prove that Superman's opinion is "wrong". I'm waiting.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

- Prove that this casual opinion is wrong. I'm waiting.

- Oh, for your information: if your definition of "wrong" isn't "false", it's subjective. Additionally, i'd love to see you attempt to prove these opinions to be "false".

#34 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

1.Prove Shiva,is better than Batman in h2h combat.

2.Out of all the PIS Batman is been through over the years,you picked the Batman vs Lady Shiva fight which is not in the slightest a PIS sample? Explain why you think it's PIS.

- 1. Prove that Shiva is superior to Bruce?

- Rather than doing that, i'll give you some food for thought that you will no doubt brush aside to support Bruce as you usually do in your seemingly fanboyish opinion.

- Please feel free to disagree with Bruce himself.

- 2. "which is not in the slightest a PIS sample?" What is and isn't PIS is subjective. Therefore, you have no authority what i do or do not deem PIS.

- Additionally, i've already explained why i deemed it WIS/CIS/PIS above.

- Therefore, i suggest you go re read the thread as i've already answered this question.

Sentences have been proven wrong almost every time.Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

As for the others,I am not even going to post back.....

- Proven wrong? Yes, his opinion has been proven "wrong" in your opinion. Understood.

- Bruce being the most dangerous man in the world, is subjective. Hence, it's not true or false. Try again.

- Powerful is an ambiguous and subjective word. Again, not true or false. Try again.

- As for the others, don't even bother posting back as you are evidently extremely ignorant of the difference between a fact and an opinion.

- Regardless, i'll take the opinion of the character himself about something related to him over that of some inane and illogical fanboy any day. Moreover, the opinion of the character about something related to them holds more importance and weight than that of some fanboy's ever will as far as i'm concerned..

-It's not my opinion.It's what you can or can't prove.Apart from mere sentences you can't post anything indicating Shiva is superior to Batman.

-So,in your opinion,everything characters say about other characters are undisputed facts only because they say so?

Following your logic,Superman is the most powerful person in the planet,Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter and Batman is most dangerous man in the world,without doubt.

@stronger said:

@quintus_knightfall said:

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

I don't know if any of you guys ever been in a courthouse,but when you are there,it doesn't matter what is true or should be true ,it only matters what you can prove.

That's what I had to say for now.Have a good day or night,whenever you are guys........

- In court, what matters is what the Judge or jury deems sufficient evidence to condemn something or someone for an act. Thus, it's not necessarily fact.

- Regardless, courts have been shown to make incorrect and false rulings and therefore, your point is trivial.

- Try again.

- Oh, and you have the audacity to say that it "it only matters what you can prove"?

Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

- Prove that Batman's opinion is "wrong". I'm waiting.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

- Prove that Superman's opinion is "wrong". I'm waiting.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

- Prove that this casual opinion is wrong. I'm waiting.

- Oh, for your information: if your definition of "wrong" isn't "false", it's subjective. Additionally, i'd love to see you attempt to prove these opinions to be "false".

1.I can state more than 5 characters who are much better melee fighters than Wonder Woman.F.e. Lady Shiva,Batman,Artemis,Nightwing,Cassandra Cain etc

2.I can also state more than 5 characters more dangerous than Batman.F.e. Sensei,Deadshot,Deathstroke,Karate Kid,Bane,Joker etc.

3.I can state more than 5 characters more powerful than Superman.F.e. Martian Manhunter,Superboy-Prime,Barry Allen,Wally West,Darkseid etc.

#35 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

1.Prove Shiva,is better than Batman in h2h combat.

2.Out of all the PIS Batman is been through over the years,you picked the Batman vs Lady Shiva fight which is not in the slightest a PIS sample? Explain why you think it's PIS.

- 1. Prove that Shiva is superior to Bruce?

- Rather than doing that, i'll give you some food for thought that you will no doubt brush aside to support Bruce as you usually do in your seemingly fanboyish opinion.

- Please feel free to disagree with Bruce himself.

- 2. "which is not in the slightest a PIS sample?" What is and isn't PIS is subjective. Therefore, you have no authority what i do or do not deem PIS.

- Additionally, i've already explained why i deemed it WIS/CIS/PIS above.

- Therefore, i suggest you go re read the thread as i've already answered this question.

Sentences have been proven wrong almost every time.Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

As for the others,I am not even going to post back.....

- Proven wrong? Yes, his opinion has been proven "wrong" in your opinion. Understood.

- Bruce being the most dangerous man in the world, is subjective. Hence, it's not true or false. Try again.

- Powerful is an ambiguous and subjective word. Again, not true or false. Try again.

- As for the others, don't even bother posting back as you are evidently extremely ignorant of the difference between a fact and an opinion.

- Regardless, i'll take the opinion of the character himself about something related to him over that of some inane and illogical fanboy any day. Moreover, the opinion of the character about something related to them holds more importance and weight than that of some fanboy's ever will as far as i'm concerned..

-It's not my opinion.It's what you can or can't prove.Apart from mere sentences you can't post anything indicating Shiva is superior to Batman.

-So,in your opinion,everything characters say about other characters are undisputed facts only because they say so?

Following your logic,Superman is the most powerful person in the planet,Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter and Batman is most dangerous man in the world,without doubt.

@thejman251 said:

@stronger said:

@quintus_knightfall said:

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

I don't know if any of you guys ever been in a courthouse,but when you are there,it doesn't matter what is true or should be true ,it only matters what you can prove.

That's what I had to say for now.Have a good day or night,whenever you are guys........

- In court, what matters is what the Judge or jury deems sufficient evidence to condemn something or someone for an act. Thus, it's not necessarily fact.

- Regardless, courts have been shown to make incorrect and false rulings and therefore, your point is trivial.

- Try again.

- Oh, and you have the audacity to say that it "it only matters what you can prove"?

Batman stated Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world.Wrong.

- Prove that Batman's opinion is "wrong". I'm waiting.

Superman stated Batman is the most dangerous man in the world.Wrong as well.

- Prove that Superman's opinion is "wrong". I'm waiting.

Superman is casually believed to be the most powerful creature in the world.That's wrong too.

- Prove that this casual opinion is wrong. I'm waiting.

- Oh, for your information: if your definition of "wrong" isn't "false", it's subjective. Additionally, i'd love to see you attempt to prove these opinions to be "false".

1.I can state more than 5 characters who are much better melee fighters than Wonder Woman.F.e. Lady Shiva,Batman,Artemis,Nightwing,Cassandra Cain etc

2.I can also state more than 5 characters more dangerous than Batman.F.e. Sensei,Deadshot,Deathstroke,Karate Kid,Bane,Joker etc.

3.I can state more than 5 characters more powerful than Superman.F.e. Martian Manhunter,Superboy-Prime,Barry Allen,Wally West,Darkseid etc.

- 1. The word Better is subjective. Therefore, this is only your opinion and not a fact Try again.

- 2. The word dangerous is also subjective. Thus, this is another opinion and not a fact. Try again.

- 3. Similarly, the word powerful is subjective. Hence, this is yet another one of your opinions and not a fact. This is strike three, i suggest that you don't bother trying again. However, you'll undoubtedly respond to this post with more opinions.

- Do you realize that your opinion is not a fact or are you too incompetent to comprehend this?

#36 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251:

Nothing is subjective.I can prove everything I am saying.

#37 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

Nothing is subjective.I can prove everything I am saying.

- You don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. Please get some common sense or stop wasting my time.

Nothing is subjective

- False statement. Opinions exist, and your posts are full of them.

I can prove everything I am saying.

- Then prove your opinion to be a fact, whilst using subjective and ambiguous terms in them.

- Let's see you fail and burn again, as you seem to have little sense.

#38 Posted by RustyRoy (9231 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

Facts change from time to time even more so in comics. Anyone can beat someone in comics. And considering that they are almost evenly matched, any of them can win depending on the situation.

#39 Posted by youmessinwithme (1083 posts) - - Show Bio

at one point i believe Batman's kick is actually shown drawing blood from Darkseid.

#40 Edited by Arkhamc1tizen (2100 posts) - - Show Bio

at one point i believe Batman's kick is actually shown drawing blood from Darkseid.

what the hell?

#41 Posted by Moon_Bat_87 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

2.I can also state more than 5 characters more dangerous than Batman.F.e. Sensei,Deadshot,Deathstroke,Karate Kid,Bane,Joker etc.

3.I can state more than 5 characters more powerful than Superman.F.e. Martian Manhunter,Superboy-Prime,Barry Allen,Wally West,Darkseid etc.

I am going to have to disagree with your number two and number three.

Deadshot, Sensei, Bane, and Joker are not more dangerous than Batman. Granted they do more deadly and terrible things but a rogue evil Batman is significantly more dangerous than them. And that was Superman's point. It is not that Batman is currently dangerous but rather when Batman's skills and resources are laid out Batman is the most dangerous man on Earth in DC because he could bring down anyone.

Also I only disagree with you on number three regarding Matian Manhunter being more powerful than Superman. His flame weakness is just to readily available and makes him more vulnerable than Superman on a regular basis. But I generally agree with the rest.

#42 Edited by Urban_Ronin (9935 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@quintus_knightfall said:

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

Facts change from time to time even more so in comics. Anyone can beat someone in comics. And considering that they are almost evenly matched, any of them can win depending on the situation.

Agreed, that wasnt my point. You have to read the full exchange rather then take the sentence out of context. In fact I said the exact same thing in one of my earlier posts :)

#43 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

2.I can also state more than 5 characters more dangerous than Batman.F.e. Sensei,Deadshot,Deathstroke,Karate Kid,Bane,Joker etc.

3.I can state more than 5 characters more powerful than Superman.F.e. Martian Manhunter,Superboy-Prime,Barry Allen,Wally West,Darkseid etc.

I am going to have to disagree with your number two and number three.

Deadshot, Sensei, Bane, and Joker are not more dangerous than Batman. Granted they do more deadly and terrible things but a rogue evil Batman is significantly more dangerous than them. And that was Superman's point. It is not that Batman is currently dangerous but rather when Batman's skills and resources are laid out Batman is the most dangerous man on Earth in DC because he could bring down anyone.

Also I only disagree with you on number three regarding Matian Manhunter being more powerful than Superman. His flame weakness is just to readily available and makes him more vulnerable than Superman on a regular basis. But I generally agree with the rest.

- The thing that he doesn't seem to comprehend is that you couldn't disagree with it if it was a "fact". However, you are free to do such as these are opinions. It's something so simple that he repeatedly fails to comprehend.

#44 Posted by deaditegonzo (3377 posts) - - Show Bio

Are... are people really using Superman/Batman 3 as evidence, OF ANYTHING?

That book is a PIS nightmare.

  1. Grodd didnt need the others to take Batman and Superman down, he could have just mind controlled them, and has.
  2. Superman just runs the table against Mongul. Yes, the baddies under Grodd's control were directly stated to be sluggish, but Mongul is one of the strongest and most durable badguys in DC, he doesnt need to move a lot just to soak damage.
  3. BATMAN BEATS SOLOMON GRUNDY! Come the F*** on.
  4. The Shiva fight. Even assuming theyre about equals, that looked too easy for Batman. Frankly, the writer came off like a hardcore fanboy, just based on the thought bubble, "A lot of people [fans] wonder who would win in a fight, *yadda yadda* Catwoman *yadda yadda*" one hit KO.

That book is fun, but also legitimately braindead.

#45 Posted by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by deaditegonzo (3377 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@deaditegonzo

Two words. Loeb Force.

And thats why I cannot believe people are taking it seriously. Batman fans, yeesh.

#47 Posted by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@deaditegonzo

Two words. Loeb Force.

And thats why I cannot believe people are taking it seriously. Batman fans, yeesh.

We're not all bad :(

#48 Posted by jsykes24 (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: I respect your point on this, and I love shiva. But i have honestly never have seen shiva as above bruce. On his level or slightly below, but not better. Although she does deserve more respect than that.

#49 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@stronger said:

@thejman251:

Nothing is subjective.I can prove everything I am saying.

- You don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. Please get some common sense or stop wasting my time.

Nothing is subjective

- False statement. Opinions exist, and your posts are full of them.

I can prove everything I am saying.

- Then prove your opinion to be a fact, whilst using subjective and ambiguous terms in them.

- Let's see you fail and burn again, as you seem to have little sense.

I only respond back to real debaters.

If you were a real debater you'd see my points.Go back and check them again.

@stronger said:

2.I can also state more than 5 characters more dangerous than Batman.F.e. Sensei,Deadshot,Deathstroke,Karate Kid,Bane,Joker etc.

3.I can state more than 5 characters more powerful than Superman.F.e. Martian Manhunter,Superboy-Prime,Barry Allen,Wally West,Darkseid etc.

I am going to have to disagree with your number two and number three.

Deadshot, Sensei, Bane, and Joker are not more dangerous than Batman. Granted they do more deadly and terrible things but a rogue evil Batman is significantly more dangerous than them. And that was Superman's point. It is not that Batman is currently dangerous but rather when Batman's skills and resources are laid out Batman is the most dangerous man on Earth in DC because he could bring down anyone.

Also I only disagree with you on number three regarding Matian Manhunter being more powerful than Superman. His flame weakness is just to readily available and makes him more vulnerable than Superman on a regular basis. But I generally agree with the rest.

1.What are talking about what would be like if Batman was a rogue.We are talking about now and today.All these guys are far more dangerous than Batman,simply cause the won't hesitate to do anything.

2.I actually thought about too that in the battles forum.Couldn't just Superman use heat vision on him?But then Martian has developed some resistance.I don't know.

Are... are people really using Superman/Batman 3 as evidence, OF ANYTHING?

That book is a PIS nightmare.

  1. Grodd didnt need the others to take Batman and Superman down, he could have just mind controlled them, and has.
  2. Superman just runs the table against Mongul. Yes, the baddies under Grodd's control were directly stated to be sluggish, but Mongul is one of the strongest and most durable badguys in DC, he doesnt need to move a lot just to soak damage.
  3. BATMAN BEATS SOLOMON GRUNDY! Come the F*** on.
  4. The Shiva fight. Even assuming theyre about equals, that looked too easy for Batman. Frankly, the writer came off like a hardcore fanboy, just based on the thought bubble, "A lot of people [fans] wonder who would win in a fight, *yadda yadda* Catwoman *yadda yadda*" one hit KO.

That book is fun, but also legitimately braindead.

1.Superman has telepathy resistance.

2.Superman has beaten Mongul a lot of times.I remember at least twice.

3.This version of Grundy was one of his weakest.Even Green Arrow and Wildcat have beaten him.

4.Explain how mind control reduces fighting skills.I can accept that Shiva wasn't in her best motion,but it's totally innapropriate to use it?

#50 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@quintus_knightfall said:

@stronger: Fair enough, though it is a "Fact" that Bruce said she could be the greatest martial artist alive. Whether or not the statement is "true" is subjective ;P

Facts change from time to time even more so in comics. Anyone can beat someone in comics. And considering that they are almost evenly matched, any of them can win depending on the situation.

Agreed, that wasnt my point. You have to read the full exchange rather then take the sentence out of context. In fact I said the exact same thing in one of my earlier posts :)

Can Batman prove that Shiva is best martial artist in the world.No.So it's not a fact.

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