@InnerVenom123 said:

To write off EITHER is simply wrong.

I disagree on the grounds that I hate Jason Todd. :P

@At Phantom, Batman was mentally affected by Bane breaking him but he recovered quicker than he did with Jason's death. Batman was furious with The Joker and even though it took him a while to recover from Jason's death, Jason's death had a bigger mental effect on Batman than Batman getting broken. Batman getting broken ad an effect on him but Jason's death had a bigger effect. Batman did feel guilty and partially responsible in making him into the Red Hood.

@comicdude23 said:

@At Phantom, Batman was mentally affected by Bane breaking him but he recovered quicker than he did with Jason's death. Batman was furious with The Joker and even though it took him a while to recover from Jason's death, Jason's death had a bigger mental effect on Batman than Batman getting broken. Batman getting broken ad an effect on him but Jason's death had a bigger effect. Batman did feel guilty and partially responsible in making him into the Red Hood.

The mental effect only came after a while,infact Batman was pretty normal in Death in the Family.@comicdude23 said:

@entropy_aegis, then why didn't Penguin, Riddled, etc not kill Jason? Jason was a skilled fighter. Your exact words "Killing Jason and shooting Barbara is something any idiot could've done". Then why didn't a stupid thug just shoot Jason? Doesn't work like that. Maybe breaking Barbabra isn't so good but killing Jason was impressive. Not anyone could've done it. When it comes down to it, Bane COULD have but he DIDN'T. He broke Batman physically but Joker killing Jason had a big affect on Batman mentally. Bane is a good villain but he can never be Batman's arch nemmessis because Joker has done more damage. Sure Bane broke Batman physically but Batman recovered, it ruined Batman when Jason died.

Batman has recovered from what happened to Jason too sooo.Penguin and Riddled(lol) did'nt do it cause ya know they dont write their own stories but yes they had the capability and the resources to do the same.

Never called Bane Batman arch nemesis,infact he was'nt even a nemesis prior to the reboot.Read my original statement I did call Joker Batman's greatest villain.

@comicdude23 said:

Batman was mentally affected by Bane breaking him but he recovered quicker than he did with Jason's death.

......and one year later, he had a new Robin. That was fast.

I mean, really, if you want to limit the effects of getting crippled to the period it took Bruce to return to top physical condition, then sure, Bruce recovered quickly, but as recently as Morrison's run in The Three Ghosts of Batman, Bruce admitted that he still had nightmares about Bane breaking his back.

@CitizenBane, is Three Ghosts of Batman worth buying?

Joker, without question

Eh, depends on who's writing either one.

I see Bane as a much more imposing threat to Bruce than Joker ever was.

in physical combat? Bane. But Joker is a maniac, his plans are devious and he thinks the hole thing is one big joke, this makes him more dangerous in my opinion

Joker is also the best Batman villain.

Ra's al Ghul.

@entropy_aegis said:

@Band Lone said:

Joker.. Bane can beat Bats physically but Joker messed him up so bad that the damage he caused lasted 8 years to solve. Bane's damage lasted just 5 months... Good try tho.

BTW the real villain of the movie was Talia not Bane... Bane was just a dog fallowing orders.

Joker was a dog at first but then he became the big villain once his plan unfolded.

The real villain as you so eloquently put it only had like 5 minutes of screen time max,she was the side villain and Bane sure as heck did'nt follow her last order, and he did'nt save her inside that pit cause he was being ordered to.dDd'nt Miranda say he became a recluse cause of the failure of the nuclear project? plus there was no crime to fight sooo.

Yeah, 5 minutes because she was undercover as Bruce Wayne's new squeeze and employee. I mean you wont be like: "Hi Bruce Im Talia and Im here to kick your Batass and destroy your city." No what she did was use Wayne and his "joystick" to get close enough to a good position in Wayne enterprise and guess what! It worked! She had Wayne in the palm of her hand and got all the info she needed and the technology. At the end there was no longer need to keep playing so she reveal herself. Brilliant.

Also Bane fell in love with Talia thats a good reason to fallow orders right there. Even if he did twisted a few orders he still was doing what Talia wanted: To do what Ra's envision. Although they failed since the city wasn't completely destroyed.

@Band Lone said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Band Lone said:

Joker.. Bane can beat Bats physically but Joker messed him up so bad that the damage he caused lasted 8 years to solve. Bane's damage lasted just 5 months... Good try tho.

BTW the real villain of the movie was Talia not Bane... Bane was just a dog fallowing orders.

Joker was a dog at first but then he became the big villain once his plan unfolded.

The real villain as you so eloquently put it only had like 5 minutes of screen time max,she was the side villain and Bane sure as heck did'nt follow her last order, and he did'nt save her inside that pit cause he was being ordered to.dDd'nt Miranda say he became a recluse cause of the failure of the nuclear project? plus there was no crime to fight sooo.

Yeah, 5 minutes because she was undercover as Bruce Wayne's new squeeze and employee. I mean you wont be like: "Hi Bruce Im Talia and Im here to kick your Batass and destroy your city." No what she did was use Wayne and his "joystick" to get close enough to a good position in Wayne enterprise and guess what! It worked! She had Wayne in the palm of her hand and got all the info she needed and the technology. At the end there was no longer need to keep playing so she reveal herself. Brilliant.

Also Bane fell in love with Talia thats a good reason to fallow orders right there. Even if he did twisted a few orders he still was doing what Talia wanted: To do what Ra's envision. Although they failed since the city wasn't completely destroyed.

Too bad her character(Miranda Tate) did'nt get enough development for us to care about it.

Ra's vision was also Bane's vision,he was doing what he wanted as well..

Joker clearly. Bane is just pumped up lately because of the movie.

@entropy_aegis: Ra's was horrified with Bane. He saw evil in him that's why he turned him away. Ra's truly believed he was doing good, Bane knew what he was doing was wrong. That and Ra's wanted to end Gotham because of the trash-hole it had become, if Gotham was in the near perfect state it was in those 8 years, would Ra's have destroyed it?

@comicdude23 said:

@entropy_aegis: Ra's was horrified with Bane. He saw evil in him that's why he turned him away. Ra's truly believed he was doing good, Bane knew what he was doing was wrong. That and Ra's wanted to end Gotham because of the trash-hole it had become, if Gotham was in the near perfect state it was in those 8 years, would Ra's have destroyed it?

Bane was more fanatical.

entropy_aegis: That's why Ra's turned him away.

@entropy_aegis: That's why Ra's turned him away.

@comicdude23 said:

@entropy_aegis: Ra's was horrified with Bane. He saw evil in him that's why he turned him away. Ra's truly believed he was doing good, Bane knew what he was doing was wrong. That and Ra's wanted to end Gotham because of the trash-hole it had become, if Gotham was in the near perfect state it was in those 8 years, would Ra's have destroyed it?

Ra's did not turn Bane away because "he saw evil in him" or anything of the sort. He turned him away because he could not stand to look at Bane's face since it was a constant reminder of the fate Ra's had left his wife to.

@Citizen_Bane: You can even read the bio that was released before the film's release. He was cast out because he was too extreme.

@comicdude23: @Band Lone: @CitizenBane: @entropy_aegis: Beside the fact the Joker want the Batfamily kills him, it means the guy was almost winning every time they almost kill him.

Bane could be big and strong, but lets face it he beat Batman because he was tired or getting old.

Also the real reason why Ras didnt let Bane be one of the memeber of the Shadows was the fact Bane was a father figure for Talia and she was in love of him, beside the fact it was incest, Ras notice Bane had more anger and hate inside of him that Batman, Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham, Ras wanted to save Gotham, they wanted to kill people, Ras wanted to save them.

Is safe to say Bane and Talia had a more insane vision that Ras.

http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2012/06/07/tdkr-bane-and-catwoman-bios-revealed - Though it says rumour has it.

@DeathpooltheT100: He was only getting tired because Bane out-smarted him and released the prisoners of Arkham. Talia didn't want to kill people she just wanted to carry on Ra's legacy, she wanted vengeance against Bruce and she thought destroying Gotham would be a way to do so. Instead of out right killing him she wanted to see him and his city crumble. Bane didn't just want to kill people, he wanted to psychologically break them aka mentally destroy them. Why do you think he gave supplies to the cops that he trapped? It was Bane who had the more insane vision. He knew what he was doing was wrong, whilst Ra's BELIEVED he was doing good and thought he was "saving" Gotham. Bane wasn't a father figure, I'd say he was more of a big brother. He took it upon himself to protect Talia as he believed it was his responsibility. It was only when she got to a suitable age that he started to love her....in a different way...

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@comicdude23: @Band Lone: @CitizenBane: @entropy_aegis: Beside the fact the Joker want the Batfamily kills him, it means the guy was almost winning every time they almost kill him.

Bane could be big and strong, but lets face it he beat Batman because he was tired or getting old.

Also the real reason why Ras didnt let Bane be one of the memeber of the Shadows was the fact Bane was a father figure for Talia and she was in love of him, beside the fact it was incest, Ras notice Bane had more anger and hate inside of him that Batman, Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham, Ras wanted to save Gotham, they wanted to kill people, Ras wanted to save them.

Is safe to say Bane and Talia had a more insane vision that Ras.

That's honestly just a lame plot driven excuse to keep him alive,you know it.

Well it's still more noteworthy than crippling Babs or killing Jason.

@comicdude23 said:

@Citizen_Bane: You can even read the bio that was released before the film's release. He was cast out because he was too extreme.

I'm pretty sure Talia stated the reason was because of Ra's shame; and she's an insider to the League so she'd know what happened better than someone like Alfred would. A bio released from before the film is obviously not going to reveal details like that because they'd be spoilers.

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@comicdude23: @Band Lone: @CitizenBane: @entropy_aegis: Beside the fact the Joker want the Batfamily kills him, it means the guy was almost winning every time they almost kill him.

Bane could be big and strong, but lets face it he beat Batman because he was tired or getting old.

Also the real reason why Ras didnt let Bane be one of the memeber of the Shadows was the fact Bane was a father figure for Talia and she was in love of him, beside the fact it was incest, Ras notice Bane had more anger and hate inside of him that Batman, Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham, Ras wanted to save Gotham, they wanted to kill people, Ras wanted to save them.

Is safe to say Bane and Talia had a more insane vision that Ras.

Ra's wanted to save Gotham by destroying it, Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham by destroying it. Same difference.

@comicdude23 said:

@Citizen_Bane: You can even read the bio that was released before the film's release. He was cast out because he was too extreme.

That was the excuse used and the story that everyone else got, but the actual reason, as revealed clearly by Talia, was what CB said.

@Buckshot: Are you sure it wasn't for both loving her and being extreme??? Could you post a clip of her saying why he was cast out?

@comicdude23: These are Talia's exact words: "But my father could not accept Bane. He saw only a monster, whose very existence was a reminder of the hell he'd left his wife to die in. He excommunicated Bane from the League of Shadows."

@CitizenBane: Fair enough. However I still do think Bane knew what he was doing was wrong, whilst Ra's didn't.

@entropy_aegis: I think this is the best way of putting it. Bane's skillset (and effectiveness) are similar to Batman, and Batman beats Joker all the time. Joker is more important as an opposing moral and philosophical force.

@CitizenBane: The last time I was here which was a while ago, you had something like 8,000 posts. How did you get past 17,000??? lol.

JOKER

@entropy_aegis said:

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@comicdude23: @Band Lone: @CitizenBane: @entropy_aegis: Beside the fact the Joker want the Batfamily kills him, it means the guy was almost winning every time they almost kill him.

Bane could be big and strong, but lets face it he beat Batman because he was tired or getting old.

Also the real reason why Ras didnt let Bane be one of the memeber of the Shadows was the fact Bane was a father figure for Talia and she was in love of him, beside the fact it was incest, Ras notice Bane had more anger and hate inside of him that Batman, Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham, Ras wanted to save Gotham, they wanted to kill people, Ras wanted to save them.

Is safe to say Bane and Talia had a more insane vision that Ras.

That's honestly just a lame plot driven excuse to keep him alive,you know it.

Well it's still more noteworthy than crippling Babs or killing Jason.

Like Bane breacking Batman was a lame plot driven excuse to make him look strong and people fear him.

@CitizenBane: @comicdude23: Bane hated humanity and society, his left wing ideal are just an example of an antisocial personallity, he wants to destroy society, but Talia wasnt the most sane girl ever, is obvious that she also wants to destroy Gotham juts for the fact it will kill people, she uses the whole Ras was my father as an excuse to justify her own actions.

Ras wants to rebuild society, Bane and Tali just want to destroy society and they just look for a reason to do it.

joker

Joker. Period.

The OP says comic versions....

@DeathpooltheT100: I know Bane hated society. But how can you say that Talka wanted to kill people? She barely had any screen time as Talia so we don't really know as much as wel could about her intentions. Though it makes sense that she just wants to carry on what her father failed to do. Her father was "murdered" by Batman (technically he wasn't but Batman didn't deny it) so obviously this must have drove her over the edge. Bane was also doing this for Talia, he thought Talia loved him but she was using him. Bane was the monster here, though we did see her really cared for Talia. Talia was insane, not Joker level insane but she just didn't get that much screen time.

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@comicdude23: @Band Lone: @CitizenBane: @entropy_aegis: Beside the fact the Joker want the Batfamily kills him, it means the guy was almost winning every time they almost kill him.

Bane could be big and strong, but lets face it he beat Batman because he was tired or getting old.

Also the real reason why Ras didnt let Bane be one of the memeber of the Shadows was the fact Bane was a father figure for Talia and she was in love of him, beside the fact it was incest, Ras notice Bane had more anger and hate inside of him that Batman, Bane and Talia wanted to destroy Gotham, Ras wanted to save Gotham, they wanted to kill people, Ras wanted to save them.

Is safe to say Bane and Talia had a more insane vision that Ras.

That's honestly just a lame plot driven excuse to keep him alive,you know it.

Well it's still more noteworthy than crippling Babs or killing Jason.

Like Bane breacking Batman was a lame plot driven excuse to make him look strong and people fear him.

@CitizenBane: @comicdude23: Bane hated humanity and society, his left wing ideal are just an example of an antisocial personallity, he wants to destroy society, but Talia wasnt the most sane girl ever, is obvious that she also wants to destroy Gotham juts for the fact it will kill people, she uses the whole Ras was my father as an excuse to justify her own actions.

Ras wants to rebuild society, Bane and Tali just want to destroy society and they just look for a reason to do it.

The bat breaking was a big gimmick no question about that,but if Joker's big victory is dying then well he's dead the moment he steps out of the Batfamily comfort zone,and yes it's a lame plot driven excuse most of the time.Remember when Bruce threw the Joker in the Lazarus pit? or when Jason did'nt kill him "cause it was'nt enough" or when Deadshot had a gun to his head and for some goddamn reason he did'nt shoot? kinda stupid really.

Kidding right? Joker is the best at hurting Batman. Bruce may never meet his death at Joker's hands but he'll wish he had.

@entropy_aegis: Killing dont mean winning, many times when you kill a person you just make their point more valid, some people are more dangerous dead that alive.

Also, in comic books people gets back from the grave, so there is no real point in killing some one if he is goig to be back.

@comicdude23: Talia ws the mind behind everything, that mean the plan of killing everybody was her plan, not Bane, if it was her plan, it means she was the one that wanted to kill everybody in Gotham.

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@entropy_aegis: Killing dont mean winning, many times when you kill a person you just make their point more valid, some people are more dangerous dead that alive.

Also, in comic books people gets back from the grave, so there is no real point in killing some one if he is goig to be back.

@comicdude23: Talia ws the mind behind everything, that mean the plan of killing everybody was her plan, not Bane, if it was her plan, it means she was the one that wanted to kill everybody in Gotham.

Yeah...so? it does'nt apply to a lunatic like the Joker,he stands for nothing other than destruction.I have no problem with Batman not killing the Joker,I have a problem with guys like you trying to make it look like getting your ass kicked to the point of death and only living due to the obvious plot reasons makes you a winner.Maybe he is in his own mind,but what he thinks or wants means nothing at all.

Talia was the mind behind the bomb,that's it.She did'nt find Gordon's resignation letter that contained the truth about Harvey,and that was a major part of Bane's plan so no she was'nt the brains behind everything.

@DeathpooltheT100: I wouldn't say that. I'd say top many people assume that. It was more of a partnership, both were driven by hatred. Talia never joined her father fully and when he died this devastated her, due to her little screen time her motives were unclear. But from what I got she wanted revenge for her father, she was crazy. But she was willing to die in order to do what her father failed to do. And the best time to strike was when Gotham was in peace.

*too*

Joker.

@entropy_aegis: Pretty much. Looking back at TDKR, even though it wasn't as good as TDK, it was great. And looking back, Bane wasn't a henchman. Too many people are jumping to assume that Bane was a henchman and nothing more.

@entropy_aegis: So the reson why you do think and wants dont count?

Only the result, i know this is how people justify the lame point of view that the Punisher is making things better, but the point is, that if you show people morallity is a joke and everybody can kill, it would mean there is no point for the good guys, because everybody is a complete monster, for the same if you kill at random is the same that kill a killer, since everybody is a killer.

Batman killing the Joker, means morallity isnt real and everybody is a monster, that mean that if you explode a bomb and kill everybody, dont matter because everybody is a monster and should be killed.

When did that happen?

I only have two comments on the thread:

1. Stop saying that Bane is physically superior to Batman! Sure, he is stronger than the DK on and off venom, but that is just sheer strength. His fighting skills aren't on the same league as Bruce's, nor are his acrobatics/agility feats.
2. More importantly, how come Joker is more capable of mental/psychological torture than Bane? Joker can't physically compete with Batman so all he can do is attack him where it will hurt (not that he'd act differently should he pose any physical threat), and that's why most of his schemes involve psychological games. But you guys need to remember that in his first appearance Bane crippled Batman, both physically and mentally, more than Joker ever could (even killing Jason was somehow a lesser feat)! It took Bruce several issues only to stop whining and find purpose again, and we're talking about one of the most disciplined and willing minds on the planet. I say that's one heck of a feat that goes far beyond "being his physical superior"...

That being said, I think Joker is undoubtedly Batman's nemesis. Not because he is more dangerous, evil or capable than Bane, but rather because he is Batman's opposite in so many ways... one's discipline, the other is chaos; one's seriousness, the other is... a big joke on him.

Batman and Joker are like Tom & Jerry, they're just a classic and inseparable duo of awesome