So, as many of you, already know, Cass made her long waitted return, on Batgirl: Futures End #1 - Darker in the Soul

And DC has just made it official.

Look here:

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2014/09/12/futures-end-the-seven-biggest-surprisesso-far

What are your thoughts on her return?

I wasn't aware she was ever gone. I just thought she was away fighting crime in Japan, China, or Taiwan (I always forget which one I read,) as Black Bat? I took it as a given, she was still a member of Batman Inc. since I'd heard Flashpoint left that intact, and by default still a member of the Batman Family as Bruces' adopted daughter.

Yeah, she did became Black Bat...neither, it was Hong Kong...but that was Pre-New-52.

In the New 52 she only appeared now...until now, we only had Grant Morrison's "word" in Cass still existing in the New 52...which, isn't nearly enough...well at least, not for me.

IG she's not the daughter of Shiva and David Cain I'll bebe disappointed. I really want her to have body reading and speech issues but at least she exists now. The bat family is growing a little too big though...

I think that she is...if you click in the link that i posted on the OP, you'll se that DC mentioned her on their oficial site, there's a list of the Futures End titles, that caused the biggest surprises so far, you run it down, until you find Batgirl: Futures End 1...and you read the text that they put there...it says thei're full names..."Stephanie Brown"..."Cassandra Cain"...etc, if Cass wasn't David Cain's daughter anymore, then, how/why does she still have "Cain" in her name?...also the Black-Beast, said that Cass has been through hell...sounds like her training under David Cain, to me.

As for Lady Shiva, that's a hard guess...Shiva is Nightwing's age in the New 52, way too young to have a teenager daughter...but since Futures End, happens in 5 years from now...i guess, that it's still possible...maybe she's already pregnant, and he don't know about it...and she will only appear again, in 10 month's from now xD

Yeah, now she can get one shotted by Jason Todd so all the Hoodies can go on wanking in the battles threads.

Lol.

@bat_girl_cc: Where did you get it that Shiva is Dick's age?

When Nightwing fought Lady Shiva, on his own title, on Nightwing #14 - Die for Me Dick stated that they are around the same age:

Also in the solicit for this issue, DC said, that they have grown since thei're last encounter, which took place on Nightwing #0 - Perpetual Motion and that now, they are not teenagers anymore...meaning, that they are somewhere between 19 or 23.

He said they appear to be roughly the same age, but she already had a reputation as an assassin.

She then said appearances can be used to deceive. To me, that is implying she has done something to make herself look younger than she actually is.

I doubt they are the same age.

Hooray! She's back!

I'm pretty sure that DC wants us to think that Lady Shiva and Dick Grayson are around the same age in the New 52...but i wish i was wrong...(Cass).

@bat_girl_cc: Why? To me, the scan you posted seems to be clearly implying they are not the same age.

To me, it seems to be implying that Shiva is much more skilled than Dick...

But if Shiva did do something to remain younger...who knows, maybe one of the lazarus pit, effects?...that would be awesome, because that could lead to baby Cass :)

That isn't implied, it's clearly shown.

Dick comments that they appear to be the same age.

Shiva states appearances can be deceiving, negating his claim.

Implying pretty clearly, they are not meant to be the same age.

Yeah, but Shiva's response, seemed more to me, like one of those things one would say, just to keep the conversation...Dick made an objective claim, and Shiva answered in a poetic way.

Anyway, let's hope you're right.

@bat_girl_cc said:

@muyjingo said:

@bat_girl_cc: Where did you get it that Shiva is Dick's age?

When Nightwing fought Lady Shiva, on his own title, on Nightwing #14 - Die for Me Dick stated that they are around the same age:

Also in the solicit for this issue, DC said, that they have grown since thei're last encounter, which took place on Nightwing #0 - Perpetual Motion and that now, they are not teenagers anymore...meaning, that they are somewhere between 19 or 23.

Allow me to air an theory based on what Shiva says in the scan above: ("Appearances like reputations can often be used to deceive.")

What if 'Shiva' is a mantle, and not a name?

Like, if the first encountered 'Shiva' is now either dead or retired and the one Nightwing faces is her daughter or protegé? (easily doable with the all-concealing attire).

So what if the first Shiva is the old Lady Shiva we used to know, and she stepped down because she ended up with Cassandra shortly afterwards? (bit of a squeeze age-wise, but as the Fox daughter in Future's end is only 12, it's not impossible) or is it?

@outside_85 said:

@bat_girl_cc said:

@muyjingo said:

@bat_girl_cc: Where did you get it that Shiva is Dick's age?

When Nightwing fought Lady Shiva, on his own title, on Nightwing #14 - Die for Me Dick stated that they are around the same age:

Also in the solicit for this issue, DC said, that they have grown since thei're last encounter, which took place on Nightwing #0 - Perpetual Motion and that now, they are not teenagers anymore...meaning, that they are somewhere between 19 or 23.

Allow me to air an theory based on what Shiva says in the scan above: ("Appearances like reputations can often be used to deceive.")

What if 'Shiva' is a mantle, and not a name?

Like, if the first encountered 'Shiva' is now either dead or retired and the one Nightwing faces is her daughter or protegé? (easily doable with the all-concealing attire).

So what if the first Shiva is the old Lady Shiva we used to know, and she stepped down because she ended up with Cassandra shortly afterwards? (bit of a squeeze age-wise, but as the Fox daughter in Future's end is only 12, it's not impossible) or is it?

Well, 'Lady Shiva' is not her real name, it's her alias...her real name is Sandra Woo-san...but so far, Sandra has been the only Shiva.

Well, Cass being an ex-assassin, who killed by mistake, and ended runing away from her father, who forced her to kill, it's Ok for me...but Cass being an assassin 24/7 like Sandra, no...i would quit comics right away.

Well, it is possible, since DC is apparently trying to get ride of the old versions...they killed Pre-New-52 Richard Dragon, in the New 52, and the guy who killed him, 'Diaz' is now the New 52 Richard Dragon...So, Cass becoming the New 52 Lady Shiva, wouldn't surprise me alot, but it would force me, to quit comics.

@outside_85:

I love Cassandra's badassness but, as like Batman's style...

assassin for hire?...no, just no!

To me, that would be DC spitting on Batgirl fans, and i would leave the ship.

That is true, but I was thinking that it could be expanded on, like the leader of the organization Cass once ended up taking from Sandra would automatically be Lady Shiva.

I have to be honest and say it wouldn't bother me that much, but maybe thats because I've always projected Cassandra onto X-23. Laura ofc has a much more horrific childhood, but base line is that they were both born to be living weapon and both escaped that life mildly handicapped, Laura with her difficult of acting human and Cass without the ability to speak.

So I suppose I wouldn't think it's that terrible of a change, if Cassandra was browbeaten into being an assassin from an early age before she realized it wasn't right.

Nah. She'll get stomped by Agent Grayson to further cement his place as the Crown Prince of the DC Universe.

If it was later explained that Cass was in fact being drugged, or being mind-controlled, i could let that one slide...but i would be pissed!...the main problem here (besides the obvious character-assassination) would be the extreme jobbing that Cass would suffer.

Well, i don't keep up much with Marvel, but X-23 is a cool character.

@bat_girl_cc: But wasn't Shiva a full grown adult woman when she fought against teenage Robin Dick? Plus, Asian women are known for looking younger than they really age.

Well I was thinking it could be done by the same methods that Laura came about: you simply raise her within a closed environment (in this case a cult of assassins) with a set goal in mind and you almost automatically end up with a kid that's not exactly normal (other example: Damian).

David Cain did something similar, but not quite as 'real', he didn't teach Cass to speak, but as long as he kept speaking around her, she would have picked it up on her own.

So perhaps not drugged or hypnotized, but realizing that the path she was put on wasn't for her.

Well, she looked a bit older than him IMO, Dick still looked like a kid, and Shiva looked like a adult woman, but woman develop their bodies faster than men, when they are in their 18's they already look full grown...all i know, is that DC wants us to belive that they are around the same age in the New 52.

Yeah, but Cass was still a child, she had no idea of what she was doing...she only realized what she was doing, when she first killed...then, she wantted nothing more with David Cain.

I don't no if i would be alright, with Cass killing people, and after sometime, just saying: no, this is wrong, no-more...and got away with it...but it's still better than she becoming the new Lady Shiva...

Don't get me wrong, i like Shiva's character, but that's the thing, it's her character!...Cass is not a killer (at least, not on her own terms) never was, and should never be.

I know. But that said, Cassandra's story has always been one of redemption, she fought to redeem herself, the other Bat's fought to avenge. It might be distasteful, but what I've suggested is that there are just a few more bodies behind her. It could have piled up on her, or it could have been a specific target that changed her.

All that said, this is sadly the New 52, and we have to endure quite a few character assassinations and I do hope Cass' die hard fans dont have to see the kind of changes I had to see in Raven, which is my favorite.