I'll start by saying that I think DCAU Batman was perfected in Justice League/Justice League Unlimited.

My question is in regards to TAS solely; there are a number of instances to which TAS Batman struggles with nameless henchmen/thugs. And this was supposedly a seasoned Batman. Did this bother you or not?

That specific aspect sligtly

bothered and perplexed me.

* Changed my stance from 'really' to 'slightly'.

Well animated shows are usually built on fight and action sequences, not mention you needed to have your main character in peril,and those fights would be pretty boring if Batman one-shotted any bad guy in his way. But at the same time, it really wasn't always the case, only in a few instances for the sake of the plot, or just in an attempt to have an exciting fight. But there are several occasions, which was most of the time, he easily beat some henchmen, even in the intro, he easily takes down two robbers.

I just want to clarify that I really like TAS as a show.

But the Justice League portrayal/continuation is a MUCH better portrayal of the character.

I was like 5 or 6 years old at the time of TAS...so no it never crossed my mind so it never bothered me.

@Anjales: JLU Batman trashed thug fodder and beat alien fodder; as well as comparitively destroying drones faster than the Justice League in training combat and dodged Darkseid's Omega Beams, none of this was boring.

TAS Batman didn't always struggle with thugs, he did win too, that's for sure. But there are a number of times to which he did.

Batman in Tas was fairly realistic but sometimes he seemed somewhat inconsistent. It never bothered me because Tas was usually very well written. For example Bruce in Year one had trouble with a group of hookers, I didn´t really cared because the story was amazing.

@black_arrow: Y1 Batman didn't necessarily have trouble with them; he was beating Selena Kyle and IIRC a girl stabbed him by surprise and then some cops shot him.

Also, wasn't TAS Batman operating in his 10th year at the start of the show? The prostitue scene directly lead to how he became Batman.

I agree with the show being extremely well written.

Well after the description that it's been done about his training (we have seen Bruce fight 5 men during his training), it surprises me that they even got a chance. Yeah he was at least at year 8, I think that ten is a good number. Well as I said above, I think that physically Batman was very realistic in the show.

@black_arrow: I don't think he was realistic per-se, perhaps MORE realistic than other cartoons; clearly his acrobatics are superhuman, and the general physics are not realistic.

Perhaps a more 'grounded' interpretation though.

Yeah you are right the better word would be grounded. Many things didn´t seem so impossible to do.

No, it doesn't bother me.

Batman was competent and skilled, and the cannon-fodder were often portrayed as strong and aggressive.

The Baseline for an average human in BtAS seemed a lot higher than the real world, normal thugs in BtAS were often noticeably stronger than all the characters in The Dark Knight Trilogy for instance, possibly even including Hardy Bane.

I would much rather have that, than an unskilled Batman fighting incompetent opponents.

• BtAS Batman didn't get shot because he was careful, fast/agile and an expert with Batarangs.
• Baleman didn't get shot because armed Cannon-fodder always automatically ran into close combat with him.

Don´t forget resourceful, most of the time he used his enviroment to catch his foes.

Agreed, all in all BtAS Batman was well rounded.

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Also Comics Batman prior to the mid 90s was not infallible, sometimes he would just get unlucky and a thug could take him down.

A random mook shot him in The Cult IIRC, and there's countless other examples, the further back you go the more vulnerable he was.

BtAS Batman is mainly like Denny O'Neil Batman IMO, though I'd say there are a lot of shades of Alan Grant in the show too.

@frozen: No it didn't bother me. It was a kids show that adults could appreciate and the scale of threats was smaller and more contained compared to the comics medium. So naturally Batman had to struggle for the purpose of the plot and for us to feel trepidation and fear when the hero was in trouble, since very few villains that were physical threats appeared in Batman TAS. It would not be as entertaining or suspenseful if Batman were to walk all over them. Also the animation wasn't as good as it is now in capturing the athleticism and grace of Batman or for portraying him engaging multiple opponents. I think it was easier and cheaper to have less assailants on the screen as well.

It still captured the spirit of Batman, his inventive mind, genius and resourcefulness; not to mention delineating mature themes and important morale lessons and some truly emotional moments. Imo it's still one of the greatest depictions of Batman on the screen and one of the best animated shows of all time. I will admit that there are inconsistencies of batman's fighting prowess. One moment he's defeating a Werecat in unarmed combat the next he's struggling against a villain whose specialty are death traps rather than on brute force haha

Sometimes. Beware The Batman had a similar problem, to a more blatant extent.

I just learned to go with it.

Nah, it was alright . They did the same with Superman in TAS, just adds drama and makes the threats seem larger.

@silent_bomber: That's not a valid comparison

TAS thugs > movie thugs because they are cartoon characters. I don't care which thug is better. If Batman is in the cartoons, I want to see him destroy thugs regardless if it's a cartoon and thugs are better in that fiction (Batman should be too).

If Bale Batman is a more realistic Universe, I want to see him beat his movie fodder more often than not.

The same can be said for TAS Batman - Cartoon Batman should beat Cartoon thugs. Movie Batman should beat Movie thugs. Game Batman should beat Game thugs, etc.

Okay I have a question and I am hoping I don't get yelled at for asking it.

What is TAS? ?

The animated series.

@rustyroy: don't think I have watched it. What's the full name ?

Batman the animated series...

@rustyroy: Oh cool thank you.

Np

TAS thugs > Dark Knight thugs because Nolan aimed for "realism", which you guys go on about being amazing until it negatively affects the perception of the fighting abilities of the characters, at which point you try to have your cake and eat it.

DKT thugs are, if anything, weaker and dumber and worse aims than even real human beings.

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and like I said earlier, before the days of the Batgod this would happen in the comics, sometimes Batman would get unlucky.

Everything about BtAS was finely honed and endlessly debated by the creators, no stone was left unturned, they read through masses of comics, watched all the movies etc etc and built their world carefully retaining what they thought worked well.

In the BtAS world, sometimes "sh#t happens" and Batman has to improvise or go with the flow.

Seriously what does Bale have anything to do with this? and thugs are thugs regardless of the medium,cant believe people are trying to worm their way out of this one.

To answer the OP's question,no it didn't bother me.

Nope not at all.

@silent_bomber: Not really. The mercenaries in The Dark Knight Rises had editing mistakes (which have actually been cited in T.V shows which point out editing mistakes, citing two scenes from The Dark Knight Rises). That's about it: there's a specific scene which people point out that a Mercenary ran towards Batman with a gun; but that neglects to mention the context of that specific scene (he was probably ordered to keep him alive - and no, this does not apply to the other Mercanaries). The film also has the editing error of Bane's leg changing during a kick transition.

In fact, the Ninja's from Batman Begins were able to crack the necks of men when stealing the Microwave emitters - a demonstration of advanced (realism wise) skill. The same Ninja's from Batman Begins, are the mercenaries from The Dark Knight Rises (members of the League of Shadows).

If we look comparatively, can you not see that thugs in Batman Returns were by far worse and dopier? Because straying away from realism often necessitates campy fodder? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL6nuZUONQE

In BTAS, Batman struggled 5-6 times. I'd be fine if it was once, maybe okay if we push twice but it was simply too many. Batman's a master martial-artist or at least a capable fighter.

THIS is how BTAS should've been portrayed (same version of Batman; different show).

Here's a clip from Gotham Knight.

This is technically Nolan Batman but you can clearly see Cartoon principles >>> Movie principles GENERALLY speaking (and this is how TAS Batman should dispose of fodder).

The bat flip he performed on Superman bothers me T___T

I don't know to the bolded part or why it was brought up.

Anyways; perhaps it bothered me more, but I think Batman should one-shot thugs. I could understand otherwise if Batman was in his first year but TAS Batman was operating for almost a decade. I much prefer the JLU incarnation.

That version of Batman was during the time of The New Batman Adventures. That's closer to the Justice League version; his costume is visibly different to TAS Batman.

Never bothered me.The storytelling was so good,i was okay with everything.

The only thing that really bothered me about DCAU Batman was the Babs/Batman relationship.... (Shudders)

That relationship was only inserted in Batman Beyond. The relationship was clearly weak writing but it wasn't too bad.

@frozen: I was talking about DCAU in general. Not show specific.

No, it isn't, every scene in DKR is like this.

All they need to do in this scene is back away and fire, look at the fourth guy, just friggin' walks over to Baleman.

The rooftop scene, they shoot all their own men whilst leaving CatwomAnne and Baleman unscathed.

This is just baseless conjecture

Baleman wasn't even supposed to be there, he was supposed to be rotting in prison.

technically Nolan Batman but you can clearly see Cartoon principles

That isn't even remotely Baleman and contradicts most of what happens in the films.

If Baleman was like that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

@silent_bomber: Putting aside the editing error of the man who backed away, they didn't back away because they're slower than him and getting swarmed. That's kind of the point...the script and novelization confirms the same thing.

They were backed away in the tunnels, had a long range and could not tag him (he aim-dodged; but still). Your comment on the rooftop shot is essentially what happens in every action film or even T.V show (notably Arrow); and in regards to films (Casino Royale, Watchmen, Die Hard, etc). That's not baseless conjecture either, Miranda was watching over the fight.

That is Nolan Batman; that's from the animated film set between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight (to which he has bullet-timing feats against Deadshot, etc). Though it has BTAS voice actors instead.

Anyways, I think this should go to PM because it's slightly off topic and clearly not the question I asked in the OP.

@silent_bomber: You and muy jingo have the same argument.

The problem, is based on the fact you try to ignore how fights actually work and get your facts wrong based on that.

Actual fights look nothing like the dancing you see in Watchmen, not only that, but that type of fight scenes are also outdated in Martial Arts movies.

The best example of why fight scenes can suck, even with a good choreography is Sucker Punch, great choreography, it just fall for the fact, there is no real danger, the characters fighting styles are generic, several of the moves are out of place and several mistakes made by Snyder.

Sucker Punch is the best example of why even when Hollywood has choregraphers as good as Asian ones, their fight scenes cant compete with the thing made in asia and why DVD movies also end having best fight scenes and also end being better action movies.

http://www.avclub.com/article/todays-best-action-directors-arent-working-in-holl-104394

It did surprise me the first time i watched it, seeing him struggle, but he gets the job done and it still awesome. he is just more realistic in TAS.

Nope, BTAS Batman is the most well rounded of all his animated or live action iterations. Both he and his villains portrayed themselves to be competent at what they do a consistent amount of the time. The threats he was going up against were also of a smaller scale than what he was facing during the Justice League era years later, and he was therefore not written as being incapable of taking damage, or even overwhelmed in some cases. The thugs he'd go up against were mooks, but they were fairly large mooks, and always outnumbered Batman. I can't remember a time where he was taken down and it didn't make sense based on the situation he was facing. He never looked weak. He looked like what Batman should look like in my opinion, an extremely smart and resourceful man who's trained himself extensively, but is still just a man at the end of the day, and can be hurt. There were times when a thug would get a punch or two in, there were times Batman didn't see something coming, there were times when the villain was just fully prepared for him. And that's how it should be. It kept the show fresh and entertaining, without making things look too easy for Batman. Also, we're speaking of a show that had something close to 100 episodes, counting The New Batman Adventures, and 3 movies. I think the amount of times we saw Batman generally just being awesome far outweigh the times we may have seen him struggle.