In Battle for the Cowl, where Batman has seemed to be dead and Dick Grayson takes over as Batman. Am I the only one who thought that would have not only been the perfect way to kill off Bruce Wayne, but to also give the mantle of Batman and a new and completely different feel? I think Bruce has overstayed his place as the Crusader and having Dick there would have made a perfect step into character development.
Batman
Character » Batman appears in 23535 issues.
Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.
Dick becomes Batman...permanently
I would have liked that, but things turned out fine. I'm content with Black Mirror and Damian/Dick Bats and Robin.
I never liked Tim Drake TBH. He has the master detective perfected, but he isn't great at the whole, "Strike fear into Gotham's Underworld". Damian Wayne is the best I suppose, but he's too impulsive. Granted he's still a child and it's a cliche trait that will eventually be outgrown. I did like the short series they did with him as the Batman. I haven't read enough Batwing to have an opinion.
@_vex_: I certainly didn't get enough of Dick as Batman. I would have preferred Bruce stay dead, Dick and Damian stay the dynamic duo.
Batman isnt a legacy character.
Also that people liked Dick at first, dont mean they would had wanted this for long.
Ben Reilly had a strong start, but with time people wanted Peter Parker back as Spiderman.
Batwing is almost the black Batman but the second Batwing has high tech suit almost similiar to Batman Beyond.
It would've been nice if Morrison was able to write Batman and Robin for at least another year or two. Dick's the perfect replacement for Bruce especially with Damian as Robin. Damian can't be Batman. He won't ever be as good as Dick or Bruce.
Batman isnt a legacy character.
This.
Batman is Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is Batman. It's not a mantle of some kind, it's Batman, plain and simple. There's the background, the events that made him the hero (legend) he is, and explain why he deserves his place in the DC Trinity. Dick is good, but not half the man Batman is.
I would had liked if they would let him be Batman for 2 years, then get Bruce back and say he never wanted they live in his shadow thing.
Dick as Batman mean he forever would live in Bruce Shadow.
Overstayed his welcome? how can he overstay his welcome? he IS Batman,Grayson is NOT end of story.
Are you telling me Terry isnt Batman?
Batman isn't really a legacy character. Batman is Bruce Wayne, and I prefer Dick as Nightwing
@deathpoolthet1000 Terry is Batman Beyond. Bruce is Batman.
Batman isn't really a legacy character. Batman is Bruce Wayne, and I prefer Dick as Nightwing
@deathpoolthet1000 Terry is Batman Beyond. Bruce is Batman.
So Bruce Wayne can only be Batman, but other can be other types of Batman?
Ok i am cool with that.
@deathpoolthet1000: Basically
@_vex_: Terry Wayne?
Overstayed his place? That doesn't make any sense Bruce Wayne IS Batman. Do you also think Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Diana Prince, etc have overstayed their place in their superhero identities? I can understand liking Dick as Batman and wanting him in the role for longer but I don't get how you can say Bruce has overstayed his place as Batman.
Overstayed his place? That doesn't make any sense Bruce Wayne IS Batman. Do you also think Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Diana Prince, etc have overstayed their place in their superhero identities? I can understand liking Dick as Batman and wanting him in the role for longer but I don't get how you can say Bruce has overstayed his place as Batman.
This. Bruce was, is and will always be Batman.
And this is the problem with most legacy characters. Long after each of us readers are dead, Batman will still be Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent will still be Superman, Peter Parker will still be Spider-Man, so on and so on; and status quo will still be god.
More often then not the legacy is false. It's why I don't allow myself to care for the Wondergirl's, the Superboy's or the Aqualad's.
Meh, not entirely sure. Bruce is the definite Batman, it just wouldn't be the same if he PERMANENTLY died and Dick became Batman forever.
I'm down with Vex remaining Dark Vengeance permanently, however.
@eternus9: This deserves an award.
@batman2000516: Why, thank you!
I prefer Bruce as Batman.Forever.Dick is meant to be his own hero aka Nightwing,not to live in Bruce's shadow.
Dick Grayson is probably my favorite character in the DC universe. And I love Nightwing. But from reading above, I disagree with so many of you.
Batman is a mantle. It is a symbol. So much of what has been explained about Batman lends itself that Batman is bigger than Bruce Wayne. Bruce would always be the best of course, but with his slew of wards, I don't think that Bruce intended to be Batman "eternal".
This is where I think Dick Grayson fits in. He does live in Batman's shadow whether he is Nightwing or filling in for an injured Batman. And I think a better story might be, instead of fighting/resenting living in the shadow of the Bat.. he accepts it. Yep. Not everyone can be Babe Ruth. Sometimes you need to accept your role. Instead of fighting your place in history, you embrace it... and get stronger because of it.
That would make for a good read, I think.
@quickfingers26 Yeah Batman is a mantle but anyone can be Batman even without Bruce hanging up the cowl. Both Bruce and Dick were Batman at the same time for a while and there's also Batman Inc. Dickfans want Bruce to retire or killed off like the OP, he's saying Bruce 'overstayed' his place, how can he overstay when he is the Batman. No one says Captain America, Spider-Man or Superman overstayed their place. I'd rather see Dick getting killed off then Bruce, Dick doesn't need to be Batman, he had been Batman, Nightwing and Robin and never stayed as those permanently.
@rustyroy: You seem to feel strongly about this.
Dick Grayson is the obvious choice. The first born, the prodigal son, etc. In a what-if universe, I think that it would have been a proper hand-off for Dick to have picked up the mantle and moved forward. You can feel free to disagree if you like.
And nobody talks about Captain America, Spider-Man or Superman dying and having someone replacing them (in a serious discussion) because they don't constantly groom and train replacements. Also they are not 100% human, so breaking down physically isn't a logical option for them.
@rustyroy: You seem to feel strongly about this.
Dick Grayson is the obvious choice. The first born, the prodigal son, etc. In a what-if universe, I think that it would have been a proper hand-off for Dick to have picked up the mantle and moved forward. You can feel free to disagree if you like.
And nobody talks about Captain America, Spider-Man or Superman dying and having someone replacing them (in a serious discussion) because they don't constantly groom and train replacements. Also they are not 100% human, so breaking down physically isn't a logical option for them.
No one wants Sam Wilson to permanently take over for Steve Rogers, no one wants Miles Morales to replace Peter Parker in the MCU. Just like Bruce, Peter and Steve are their superhero alter ego's. They're not like Flash or Green Lantern when the average person thinks of Batman they think of Bruce Wayne not Dick Grayson. And if Dick became Batman for good what would become of Bruce? And if Bruce gets replaced does that mean after awhile Dick would too? Would the Batman identity just be a revolving door? It wouldn't be fair for Dick to take the mantle from someone who has had it for over 75 years when Dick has had his own successful identities.
@rustyroy: You seem to feel strongly about this.
Dick Grayson is the obvious choice. The first born, the prodigal son, etc. In a what-if universe, I think that it would have been a proper hand-off for Dick to have picked up the mantle and moved forward. You can feel free to disagree if you like.
And nobody talks about Captain America, Spider-Man or Superman dying and having someone replacing them (in a serious discussion) because they don't constantly groom and train replacements. Also they are not 100% human, so breaking down physically isn't a logical option for them.
Yeah I feel strongly about this because it's not the first time this topic has been made, if I go to the Dick Grayson forum and make threads about killing of Dick Grayson and replacing him with someone else, many Dickfans will feel strongly about that too.
Yeah I disagree, he was the obvious choice but that story has already been told many times in Elseworlds and in canon, where we see him struggle at first and finally easing into the role of Batman. There are other options than Dick too.
Batman doesn't train replacements, he trains Robins, if he only trained his replacement then one would've been enough. Also by that logic why no one brings up Tim, Damian or Jason? But everyone only talks about one guy and there's that one (or more than one guy) for Cap (Bucky, Falcon etc.), Superman (Superboy, Shazam etc.), Spider-Man(clones) too, and breaking down physically is an option for them, Spider-Man and Superman fight enemies who can kill them, they were killed by their own enemies unlike Batman who needed someone a lot powerful than his entire Rogues gallery. There's not much difference between Cap and Batman physically from what I've heard and Cap can certainly be killed.
@jack_donaghy: I hear you. And Dick has had his own successful identities, which pretty sums up his existence as Nightwing/Agent Grayson.
But I thought the OP asked about the death of Bruce Wayne. My opinion is that if/when Bruce Wayne dies, Dick Grayson is the natural choice as his successor. And that if that should happen, there is a story there.
@rustyroy: I don't frequent the Batman forum very often, so I am missing what you have seen here. And I don't want discount that Rusty. I am not knocking Bruce Wayne or trying to take away from Batman. I just thought there was a story of Nightwing embracing his role as Batman is all.
@jack_donaghy: I hear you. And Dick has had his own successful identities, which pretty sums up his existence as Nightwing/Agent Grayson.
But I thought the OP asked about the death of Bruce Wayne. My opinion is that if/when Bruce Wayne dies, Dick Grayson is the natural choice as his successor. And that if that should happen, there is a story there.
@rustyroy: I don't frequent the Batman forum very often, so I am missing what you have seen here. And I don't want discount that Rusty. I am not knocking Bruce Wayne or trying to take away from Batman. I just thought there was a story of Nightwing embracing his role as Batman is all.
Yeah he was talking about Bruce dying but the problem I have is with the idea that Bruce has overstayed his welcome as Batman, he should always be Batman imo. He's the one who has made the Batman persona legendary and iconic in the first place. And Dick doesn't need to be Batman, a lot of his fans seem to think the only way he can be relevant is if he's Batman but I don't agree with that.
I agree with you @jack_donaghy
With or without Batman, Dick Grayson is good enough on his own. Chuck Dixon's Nightwing rocked! And Batman can keep on keeping on with Bruce Wayne and no worries there either. I think we are on the same page, Jack.
I was merely answering the what if scenario here.
It would've been nice if Morrison was able to write Batman and Robin for at least another year or two. Dick's the perfect replacement for Bruce especially with Damian as Robin. Damian can't be Batman. He won't ever be as good as Dick or Bruce.
I don't understand how that's possible considering Damian's light years ahead of where both of them were at his age, in terms of skills, intelligence, etc. He was trained as a master martial artist and acrobat by the League of Assassins, literally since he was born. Based on this fact, it would make sense that Damian would be the best Batman when he reaches adulthood.
Batman isnt a legacy character.
This.
Batman is Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is Batman. It's not a mantle of some kind, it's Batman, plain and simple. There's the background, the events that made him the hero (legend) he is, and explain why he deserves his place in the DC Trinity. Dick is good, but not half the man Batman is.
@batzilla said:
It would've been nice if Morrison was able to write Batman and Robin for at least another year or two. Dick's the perfect replacement for Bruce especially with Damian as Robin. Damian can't be Batman. He won't ever be as good as Dick or Bruce.
I don't understand how that's possible considering Damian's light years ahead of where both of them were at his age, in terms of skills, intelligence, etc. He was trained as a master martial artist and acrobat by the League of Assassins, literally since he was born. Based on this fact, it would make sense that Damian would be the best Batman when he reaches adulthood.
Well, not necessarily. Look at the Heretic. He declared at one point he was Batman. He was way stronger and faster than him, he had the look (somehow), and was a better version of Damian Wayne, technically. BUT, a better Batman? Nay. And,ultimately, he was defeated by the Bat. He could'nt reach the level of Bruce because he was'nt Batman. As I said, it all came from that night Thomas and Martha Wayne died. By the way, I don't think Damian is more intelligent than his father at the same age (Bruce Wayne is far more intelligent, he is a genius), sure he is more skilled... But what about the real deal here? The darkness? The pain? This noble idea of Justice/Revenge without killing? To instill fear in the hearts of criminals? Did Damian ever experienced the feelings young Bruce Wayne experienced when his parents were shot in front of him? What's the difference of implication between the one who was born to be an assassin, and the one who decided to be judge, jury, and executioner for the sake of all the kids of Gotham?
The best Batman is Bruce Wayne. Maybe Damian could be a better fighter, most certainly. But he won't.That's it. I'm sorry if I'm a fanboy :D
This is the worst idea in the history of ideas (if you're serious).
Which one?
@jack_donaghy: I hear you. And Dick has had his own successful identities, which pretty sums up his existence as Nightwing/Agent Grayson.
But I thought the OP asked about the death of Bruce Wayne. My opinion is that if/when Bruce Wayne dies, Dick Grayson is the natural choice as his successor. And that if that should happen, there is a story there.
@rustyroy: I don't frequent the Batman forum very often, so I am missing what you have seen here. And I don't want discount that Rusty. I am not knocking Bruce Wayne or trying to take away from Batman. I just thought there was a story of Nightwing embracing his role as Batman is all.
I haven't come here for a while now but there used to be a few similar threads like this, there was even a poll IIRC.
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