Death of the Family Speculation (spoilers, massive spoliers!)

#1 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

The Following Contains MASSIVE spoilers and some speculation about the Death of the Family Arc****DO NOT READ***

***SPOILERS***

LOOK AWAY NOW

IM WARNING YOU THIS MAY SPOIL DEATH OF THE FAMILY

LAST CHANCE

OK, YOU SURE HERE WE GO

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Ok let me start off with what I know as a fact if you look at DC Comics website you will notice that every single Bat Family member has a number 18 comic and if you read the preview it is all dealing with post Death of the family. so surprise no Hero is dieing in Death of the Family because all of their comic runs continue after the story arc so nobody dies. this could be a ploy by DC but i doubt it I think they would not preview any of the Bat Family comics before making up false previews but hey I could be wrong. However if you read the previews they all talk about a huge tragedy that affects them and there all the same thing pretty much ____ suffered horribly in DOTF and they are couping with it. Now this got me thinking given that all the Heros still have comic runs continuing what could possibly happen to make the this happen. well if you read the latest Nightwing, Rayna or whatever her stupid name is dies, whatever you cares not really enough to have a lasting effect on Dick. So after considering this I came up with one possibility that would shake the Family to the core. ALFRED, alfred dies in someway during the death of the family. its the only person that could cause a great tragedy for the entire bat family and have it be meaningful. What brings me to this conclusion is one word "Sanity" if you read the preview for Bats 18 and NW 18 it says they are having trouble maintaining thier sanity and NW is even tempted to get revenge. We all know Dick he is a boy scout and that little wh%r3 rayna isnt enough to drive Dick mad or think about killing someone and what drove Bats nearly insane last time, a death of a Bat Family member. Also notice in Batman 18 it previews Harper Row coming back, she was that girl who tried to help batman cause he saves her brother. she is a computer and electical wiz and this is just a guess but since she was smart enough before to hack bats cameras she might be able to learn to use the bat computer. My guess Alfred bites the big one and Harper Row steps in as an "oricale" type to assist the Bat Family like alfred/babs did. of course she could never replace good old alfred but it just might happen.

this could also lead to huge strains on the Family NW blaming bruce because he failed to accept the fact Joker found out thier identies or had got into the cave. everyone taking sides over this w/e but it would definatly cause a rift. also Alfred has patched up alot of the Bat Fam relationships over the years and he is the kind of glue that kept them together the one any of them could go to when they need help. with alfred gone and at this point it looks like most of the blame would fall on Bats because he couldnt come to terms with the Joker knowing their I.D.s and putting the entire family in danger it could lead to the Death of the Family

#2 Posted by sinestro_GL (3158 posts) - - Show Bio

Dunno if Alfred will die...maybe paralysed like Babs was?

#3 Posted by TheCannon (18726 posts) - - Show Bio

Hopefully it ends with Damian being killed in the most brutal death possible.

#4 Edited by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

Hopefully it ends with Damian being killed in the most brutal death possible.

Go and watch Wolverine Origins or something suitably poor.

I'm betting that Alfred will die.

#5 Posted by TheCannon (18726 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@TheCannon said:

Hopefully it ends with Damian being killed in the most brutal death possible.

Go and watch Wolverine Origins or something suitably poor.

what?

#6 Posted by BR_Havoc (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

Never understand the hate for Damian and even if they did kill him off. People would just get pissed off that this giant cross over story was a "modern" retelling of the Death in the family. Ether Alfred will die or they will kill Joker off with ether Jason or Harley finally killing him.

#7 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I really doubt Joker will die. Doesnt make alot of sense to reintro Bats greatest villian then kill him off in one story arc. I also dont think Jokers death would be that horrific of an event for the entire family in fact Jason and Babs would probably be greatful. Like I said all family members have a number 18 comic so they all live. It has to be Alfred, I dont know if he will be killed but something is definatly gonna happen to him. I think this is what DOTF is actually about the destruction of bonds that used to hold the family together. all bonds will be broken Harley will not be associated with the Joker as she has a new home with Deadshot and the Suicide Squad. The think that will happen to Alfred will break Jason and Babs off the family because they believe Bats failure in getting rid of the Joker caused them to much pain, babs crippled, jason killed, now alfred. it would be to much for them to bare. Nightwing would probably blame Bruce as well for not coming to grips with reality and not treating them as equals and with trust, it would cause a rift. Hard to say what Damian would but he'd probably be split between NW and Bats and try to be the peace maker. I dont know what Tim would do because I honestly havent read alot of Tims comics. but I think the Joker will finally win one, not kill Bats or anything, and Bats will stop him and appear to have won but in reality Joker will be successful in destroying the bonds which is what hes after since he believes those bonds are dragging bruce down

#8 Posted by BR_Havoc (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

I really doubt Joker will die. Doesnt make alot of sense to reintro Bats greatest villian then kill him off in one story arc. I also dont think Jokers death would be that horrific of an event for the entire family in fact Jason and Babs would probably be greatful. Like I said all family members have a number 18 comic so they all live. It has to be Alfred, I dont know if he will be killed but something is definatly gonna happen to him. I think this is what DOTF is actually about the destruction of bonds that used to hold the family together. all bonds will be broken Harley will not be associated with the Joker as she has a new home with Deadshot and the Suicide Squad. The think that will happen to Alfred will break Jason and Babs off the family because they believe Bats failure in getting rid of the Joker caused them to much pain, babs crippled, jason killed, now alfred. it would be to much for them to bare. Nightwing would probably blame Bruce as well for not coming to grips with reality and not treating them as equals and with trust, it would cause a rift. Hard to say what Damian would but he'd probably be split between NW and Bats and try to be the peace maker. I dont know what Tim would do because I honestly havent read alot of Tims comics. but I think the Joker will finally win one, not kill Bats or anything, and Bats will stop him and appear to have won but in reality Joker will be successful in destroying the bonds which is what hes after since he believes those bonds are dragging bruce down

I can see most of what you are saying happening. The reason I mentioned killing Joker is that I believe after this storyline there will not be a place for him in Batman comics for a little bit, So I could see Jason killing him this would break the Batman family with Jason taking the step that Batman never would do. If Jason did kill Joker I think the Batman would see himself as a failure and question many things about himself and his son. That could make for an interesting plot

#9 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

@BR_Havoc said:

@RitchieB said:

I really doubt Joker will die. Doesnt make alot of sense to reintro Bats greatest villian then kill him off in one story arc. I also dont think Jokers death would be that horrific of an event for the entire family in fact Jason and Babs would probably be greatful. Like I said all family members have a number 18 comic so they all live. It has to be Alfred, I dont know if he will be killed but something is definatly gonna happen to him. I think this is what DOTF is actually about the destruction of bonds that used to hold the family together. all bonds will be broken Harley will not be associated with the Joker as she has a new home with Deadshot and the Suicide Squad. The think that will happen to Alfred will break Jason and Babs off the family because they believe Bats failure in getting rid of the Joker caused them to much pain, babs crippled, jason killed, now alfred. it would be to much for them to bare. Nightwing would probably blame Bruce as well for not coming to grips with reality and not treating them as equals and with trust, it would cause a rift. Hard to say what Damian would but he'd probably be split between NW and Bats and try to be the peace maker. I dont know what Tim would do because I honestly havent read alot of Tims comics. but I think the Joker will finally win one, not kill Bats or anything, and Bats will stop him and appear to have won but in reality Joker will be successful in destroying the bonds which is what hes after since he believes those bonds are dragging bruce down

I can see most of what you are saying happening. The reason I mentioned killing Joker is that I believe after this storyline there will not be a place for him in Batman comics for a little bit, So I could see Jason killing him this would break the Batman family with Jason taking the step that Batman never would do. If Jason did kill Joker I think the Batman would see himself as a failure and question many things about himself and his son. That could make for an interesting plot

I'd love for Jason to be the one to kill Joker, however, I don't think DC editorial would allow such a thing to pass.

#10 Posted by BR_Havoc (1295 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@RitchieB said:

I really doubt Joker will die. Doesnt make alot of sense to reintro Bats greatest villian then kill him off in one story arc. I also dont think Jokers death would be that horrific of an event for the entire family in fact Jason and Babs would probably be greatful. Like I said all family members have a number 18 comic so they all live. It has to be Alfred, I dont know if he will be killed but something is definatly gonna happen to him. I think this is what DOTF is actually about the destruction of bonds that used to hold the family together. all bonds will be broken Harley will not be associated with the Joker as she has a new home with Deadshot and the Suicide Squad. The think that will happen to Alfred will break Jason and Babs off the family because they believe Bats failure in getting rid of the Joker caused them to much pain, babs crippled, jason killed, now alfred. it would be to much for them to bare. Nightwing would probably blame Bruce as well for not coming to grips with reality and not treating them as equals and with trust, it would cause a rift. Hard to say what Damian would but he'd probably be split between NW and Bats and try to be the peace maker. I dont know what Tim would do because I honestly havent read alot of Tims comics. but I think the Joker will finally win one, not kill Bats or anything, and Bats will stop him and appear to have won but in reality Joker will be successful in destroying the bonds which is what hes after since he believes those bonds are dragging bruce down

I can see most of what you are saying happening. The reason I mentioned killing Joker is that I believe after this storyline there will not be a place for him in Batman comics for a little bit, So I could see Jason killing him this would break the Batman family with Jason taking the step that Batman never would do. If Jason did kill Joker I think the Batman would see himself as a failure and question many things about himself and his son. That could make for an interesting plot

I'd love for Jason to be the one to kill Joker, however, I don't think DC editorial would allow such a thing to pass.

I really think it would be a good storyline if they do it. Jason kills Joker then has to go on the run from Batman and other heroes I mean his team is called the outlaws and what do they do that merits that title?

#11 Posted by BatWatch (2724 posts) - - Show Bio

Alfred is definitely a possibility. I agree that he is the one death that would have the greatest impact on every member of the family. I also think that bringing in the nose ring chick seems to indicate a possible Alfred death.

However, I hesitate to jump on that bandwagon because we all know he would be coming back eventually, and he adds so much depth to the Bat Family. I think the stories following Alfred's death would be weaker without him.

Personally, I'm wondering if Damian might buy it. It is true that all the series have comics following DotF, but Damian is the only one not specifically mentioned, and his death would affect Bruce and Dick most of all.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

@BR_Havoc:

They kill people on a regular basis.

I don't think it would add much to RHATO. They are already on the fringe, and I would not enjoy seeing the Outlaws constantly defined by their animosity with the rest of the Bat Clan. I would enjoy seeing this sort of plot at some point, but I would prefer for the team to establish itself first.

#12 Posted by cameron83 (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

Her name is Raya,I don't know what you have against her (even though I am apathetic towards her,I mean seriously,she's not even that important).

It is a possibility that Alfred will die,but it's a possibility.Although,due to other comics,I doubt he will die.HOWEVER,here is the thing,he may appear dead,but then will actually turn out being alive.Maybe even saving the day,but who knows....

And it's spelled oracle,and I don't hate harper row,but I don't even care if she dies or not....ok that was mean and a lie,I would prefer that she not die,she can become a likable character.

#13 Posted by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

snyder said in his interview on fat man on batman that everyone thinks he is going to kill alfred and then he says that he loves alfred so i really think that the death of the family is just that there is going to be some kind of secret that joker has that will tear the Bat family apart something that Bruce is hiding and not just the fact that the Joker has or has not been in the cave, its something bigger.

#14 Posted by SmashBrawler (5732 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

Personally, I'm wondering if Damian might buy it. It is true that all the series have comics following DotF, but Damian is the only one not specifically mentioned, and his death would affect Bruce and Dick most of all.

A Robin dies? OH THE ORIGINALITY-NESS.

Seriously, if Damian dies I'm losing all respect I had for Snyder as a Batman writer.

#15 Posted by Funrush (1369 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@RitchieB said:

I really doubt Joker will die. Doesnt make alot of sense to reintro Bats greatest villian then kill him off in one story arc. I also dont think Jokers death would be that horrific of an event for the entire family in fact Jason and Babs would probably be greatful. Like I said all family members have a number 18 comic so they all live. It has to be Alfred, I dont know if he will be killed but something is definatly gonna happen to him. I think this is what DOTF is actually about the destruction of bonds that used to hold the family together. all bonds will be broken Harley will not be associated with the Joker as she has a new home with Deadshot and the Suicide Squad. The think that will happen to Alfred will break Jason and Babs off the family because they believe Bats failure in getting rid of the Joker caused them to much pain, babs crippled, jason killed, now alfred. it would be to much for them to bare. Nightwing would probably blame Bruce as well for not coming to grips with reality and not treating them as equals and with trust, it would cause a rift. Hard to say what Damian would but he'd probably be split between NW and Bats and try to be the peace maker. I dont know what Tim would do because I honestly havent read alot of Tims comics. but I think the Joker will finally win one, not kill Bats or anything, and Bats will stop him and appear to have won but in reality Joker will be successful in destroying the bonds which is what hes after since he believes those bonds are dragging bruce down

I can see most of what you are saying happening. The reason I mentioned killing Joker is that I believe after this storyline there will not be a place for him in Batman comics for a little bit, So I could see Jason killing him this would break the Batman family with Jason taking the step that Batman never would do. If Jason did kill Joker I think the Batman would see himself as a failure and question many things about himself and his son. That could make for an interesting plot

I'd love for Jason to be the one to kill Joker, however, I don't think DC editorial would allow such a thing to pass.

They can bring him back. He practically has a healing factor. Just wait a few years until the tension from his murder has started to wear down.

Also, Harper being Oracle would be pretty cool.

#16 Posted by JakeN7 (12442 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

Alfred is definitely a possibility. I agree that he is the one death that would have the greatest impact on every member of the family. I also think that bringing in the nose ring chick seems to indicate a possible Alfred death.

However, I hesitate to jump on that bandwagon because we all know he would be coming back eventually, and he adds so much depth to the Bat Family. I think the stories following Alfred's death would be weaker without him.

Personally, I'm wondering if Damian might buy it. It is true that all the series have comics following DotF, but Damian is the only one not specifically mentioned, and his death would affect Bruce and Dick most of all.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

@BR_Havoc:

They kill people on a regular basis.

I don't think it would add much to RHATO. They are already on the fringe, and I would not enjoy seeing the Outlaws constantly defined by their animosity with the rest of the Bat Clan. I would enjoy seeing this sort of plot at some point, but I would prefer for the team to establish itself first.

I doubt it. I would be immensely pissed if Damian bit the dust. And he actually has technically been specifically mentioned. Look at these solicits:

Batman and Robin #17

• Batman and Robin gear up to protect Gotham City in the week leading up to the 300 anniversary of the city’s founding!

• It’s a who’s who of Gotham City’s worst against The Dynamic Duo!

Batman and Robin #18

• You dare not miss this issue!

• It’s the BATMAN AND ROBIN story of the year!

Batman Incorporated #7

• The fight to reclaim Gotham City begins!

• Batman, Inc., takes the offensive against Talia and Leviathan!

• It’s Damian vs. Heretic — and if Damian loses, the city dies!

Batman Incorporated #8

• Everything Grant Morrison has been planning since the start of BATMAN, INCORPORATED leads to this stunning issue!

• You must not miss this one!

I know Batman Incorporated doesn't have any DotF tie-ins but it's in continuity, and still referenced to in other titles and even some DotF tie-ins.

@havoc1201 said:

snyder said in his interview on fat man on batman that everyone thinks he is going to kill alfred and then he says that he loves alfred so i really think that the death of the family is just that there is going to be some kind of secret that joker has that will tear the Bat family apart something that Bruce is hiding and not just the fact that the Joker has or has not been in the cave, its something bigger.

Could you post a link to the interview please? Because, personally I think Alfred's death is the most logical possibility and I think it might cause a rift between the Bat-Family kind of like what was already said above. I mean he's already been beaten (possibly crippled) and blinded by Joker. Hopefully his suffering might end....

#17 Posted by batshrine (994 posts) - - Show Bio

Alfred's death will do two things. It would prompt a HUGE emotional response because regardless of the fact that we read the comics for the superheros Alfred is one of the most (if not the most) important supporting character in history. I have never seen a fan ever hate on Alfred, some may dislike every other character but Alfred is loved by all. So yes a sales spike would definitely happen.

But DC is also losing one of their best plot devices! If Batman needs to talk to someone about anything, Alfred is one of the best. He is a great reality check to Bruce and the balance is great. Without that, they will suffer.

I also really don't want Alfred to die simply because I would want him back and he would come back and I am done with meaningless deaths. I mean what main character ever remains dead (may Ted Kord forever be a rebel and remain dead). And with superheroes its like ok they get involved in tons of weird stuff all the time, so its conceivable for them to come back. But Alfred is just a normal guy taking care of a family that needs a lot of help. It would be difficult to bring him back without a retcon and I only want retcons to happen once every 2 decades at most!

#18 Posted by BatWatch (2724 posts) - - Show Bio

@JakeN7:

I read the same interview that havoc read, but I have no idea where it was. I most likely posted it to the News Section of BatWatch.net but I didn't mention the bit about Alfred in the headline because I do not think he is going to die, so that part didn't surprise me.

Whoops! I wonder if they change the solicites of if I just missed Batman and Robin #17. Oh, wait a second. Let me check something. All right. Batman and Robin 17 releases the same week as Batman 17, the conclusion of Death of the Family. So technically, Damian is not mentioned alive after the conclusion of Death of the Family. Batman Inc. will be released after the conclusion of Death of the Family though, but it is so difficult to figure out when things are happening with all the different series.

One of the reasons I think it might be Damian is that the solicits from Worlds' Finest say Helena will be dealing with a loss that shake the DC universe, and that solicit comes right after the Death of the Family conclusion (unless I am mistaken). Helena has no connection to any other members of the Bat family, and there are no other logical supsects for what could upset her, yet she just happened to bond with Damian in an arc that seemed somewhat rushed and forced in the last couple issues? I don't know...

Anyway, I like Damian too, but The Heretic is going to be Damian, so Damian will still be in the universe even if young Damian dies. Small comfort I am sure.

Also, we don't know that Alfred is blinded. We know he could not see (which could be for many, many reasons) and that Joker said he was blinded, but that means very little.

@batshrine said:

Alfred's death will do two things. It would prompt a HUGE emotional response because regardless of the fact that we read the comics for the superheros Alfred is one of the most (if not the most) important supporting character in history. I have never seen a fan ever hate on Alfred, some may dislike every other character but Alfred is loved by all. So yes a sales spike would definitely happen.

But DC is also losing one of their best plot devices! If Batman needs to talk to someone about anything, Alfred is one of the best. He is a great reality check to Bruce and the balance is great. Without that, they will suffer.

I also really don't want Alfred to die simply because I would want him back and he would come back and I am done with meaningless deaths. I mean what main character ever remains dead (may Ted Kord forever be a rebel and remain dead). And with superheroes its like ok they get involved in tons of weird stuff all the time, so its conceivable for them to come back. But Alfred is just a normal guy taking care of a family that needs a lot of help. It would be difficult to bring him back without a retcon and I only want retcons to happen once every 2 decades at most!

I would love for the entire DCNU to be retconned, and I think there is a real chance it could happen if MarvelNow manages to keep their audience spike unlike DC, but that is a different discussion.

I'm with you on not wanting to see Alfred dead because it would be temporaroy and he is such a great character. I don't think it will happen though.

#19 Posted by JakeN7 (12442 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

@JakeN7:

Whoops! I wonder if they change the solicits or if I just missed Batman and Robin #17. Oh, wait a second. Let me check something. All right. Batman and Robin 17 releases the same week as Batman 17, the conclusion of Death of the Family. So technically, Damian is not mentioned alive after the conclusion of Death of the Family.

I also posted issue #18's solicit...

@BatWatch said:

@JakeN7:

I read the same interview that havoc read, but I have no idea where it was. I most likely posted it to the News Section of BatWatch.net but I didn't mention the bit about Alfred in the headline because I do not think he is going to die, so that part didn't surprise me.

Whoops! I wonder if they change the solicites of if I just missed Batman and Robin #17. Oh, wait a second. Let me check something. All right. Batman and Robin 17 releases the same week as Batman 17, the conclusion of Death of the Family. So technically, Damian is not mentioned alive after the conclusion of Death of the Family. Batman Inc. will be released after the conclusion of Death of the Family though, but it is so difficult to figure out when things are happening with all the different series.

One of the reasons I think it might be Damian is that the solicits from Worlds' Finest say Helena will be dealing with a loss that shake the DC universe, and that solicit comes right after the Death of the Family conclusion (unless I am mistaken). Helena has no connection to any other members of the Bat family, and there are no other logical supsects for what could upset her, yet she just happened to bond with Damian in an arc that seemed somewhat rushed and forced in the last couple issues? I don't know...

Anyway, I like Damian too, but The Heretic is going to be Damian, so Damian will still be in the universe even if young Damian dies. Small comfort I am sure.

So true...

Also, find that interview if you can! Would love to read it...: )

And as for Damian...are you referring to Damian as Batman? I don't think anything has been confirmed and that story just seemed like an alternate universe, or one of many possible futures for Gotham City and the Bat-Family, which was well alluded to in Batman #666 and subsequent issues. I think it still needs to be taken with a grain of salt at this point.

@BatWatch said:

@JakeN7:

Also, we don't know that Alfred is blinded. We know he could not see (which could be for many, many reasons) and that Joker said he was blinded, but that means very little.

True enough I suppose...

#20 Posted by redhoodnet (153 posts) - - Show Bio

Alfred will be the new Oracle.

With Babs back in costume we need a new Oracle in the N52 and he will be it.

#21 Posted by HushoftheWind (990 posts) - - Show Bio

its still a possibility for Damien to bite the dust, that cover to Batman and Robin 18 could be a red herring. Besides if Damien dies, it would be nice to see the Batman and Robin book turn into a team up book with Batman co starring with a different Robin(Nightwing, Red Robin, Red Hood) every arc or issue.

#22 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

There are too many Robins and all the other Robins can be killed and just leave Dick Grayson as the only Robin.

#23 Posted by BatWatch (2724 posts) - - Show Bio

@JakeN7:

I did a brief google search for that article, but I couldn't find it. Like i said, it is probably on the news feed of BatWatch, but I add about fifteen articles a week, and I'm afraid its not quite worth it to dig through all that. Still, it is true that Snyder says he loves Alfred and feels he adds a lot to the comics, but that doesn't really give us any hint on whether or not he will live.

What I was saying about Damian is that I believe the Heretic in Batman Incorporated will be revealed to be Damian Wayne from the future. I talk more about it in this review which got a ton of traffic, so lots of people must have been intrigued by that idea. I could be completley wrong of course, but it would explain why Morrisson spent a complete issue showing a possible future.

@redhoodnet said:

Alfred will be the new Oracle.

With Babs back in costume we need a new Oracle in the N52 and he will be it.

If we are talking about him being an incredible computer hacker, it seems unlikely to me that somebody who did not grow up in the digital age would master the craft so late in life. If we are talking about merely supplying basic research and scouting for Batman, then he already does that.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

#24 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope Alfred doesn't die. It is too early in the New 52 to kill off one of the most influential people in Bruce's life. Besides, I am not a fan of comic characters dying, they always come back in the end and it only serves to cheapen the story later on.

#25 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

Alfred will die, because Batman relies on him. His existence takes some of the edge out of Batman (and of the characters, he doesnt have his own book or "following"). The Joker hates that, and so do we. Alfred is actual family to Batman, if he ever thought twice, he'd realize he had a father, and a family, as much as anyone else really, but with Alfred dead, he wont any longer, because of the far reaching effects of Alfreds death...

The Bat family will dissolve (until a writer who likes Silver Age style Batman takes over; right now, we are in the presence of the Batman of the Dark Ages of comics), for two reasons: 1) Alfreds death, and the blood will be on Batmans hands, but merely forewarning Alfred and everyone, they could have prepared and this could potentially have been prevented, and 2) Their secrets, their friends, families, and real lives, are no longer safe. There will always be a question mark, even if Joker dies, because maybe he told someone, or left clues? He's a jerk like that.

And finally, Joker may die (its the easiest way for DC to handle his knowledge of their identities), he will DEFINITELY return, probably with amnesia from his apparent death, and by then the Bat family will probably be back together by then anyway.

But, to me, this story is about us. The Nolan's vs... the Joel Schumachers? anyway, the people who think that to maintain the integrity of Batman and be true to the character is to get rid of Robin vs the people who love the lighter side of Batman, the campier aspects, and have fully embraced Robin. These groups have been in debating for a while, and Nolan recognized it himself, but this is the first book to openly portray a character who represents the Nolanites, and he makes a HELLUVA argument. The Jokers opinion is profound, and at least somewhat grounded in truth, just like the real life critics who can clearly see the softening of the bat from the outside. Me? I love Nightwing, Red Robin, and Alfred all better than Batman himself, but this is the best Bat story ive read in a while, so no complaints from the peanut gallery in this circus.

#26 Posted by batshrine (994 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: I am sorry but you assume that Batman's light stories exist because of his family and I would severely argue that. Some of his deepest stories (coughlikethisonecough) involve his family. When people think of famous stories they think of Killing Joke (which required a certain "campy" batgirl), Death in the Family (the death of a certain character...), Hush (a cameo fest!), RIP (if anyone paid homage to the silver age it was morrison). and i could keep going with different arcs, but the key thing is that his bat family has been far from campy for a LONG time. And if you are telling me that the Batman stories you have been reading for the past decade and a half have not maintained the integrity of Batman then I'll be shocked, cause that is the only Batman I really know. Or do you want to go back to the golden age when he used guns?

In Nolan's universe he knew he couldn't make it work, but in another universe it totally could. I mean Nolan's Batman wouldn't fit into a justice league, yet Batman has proven in many media to be capable of not just being in the League, but leading it too.

I honestly think Alfred is a red herring, he isn't going to die, and we will fear for his death the most. It would be poor planning and writing to kill off one of their best characters. It's like killing Samwise Gamgee from lord of the rings, Chi Chi from dragonball z, or hagrid from harry potter its just unthinkable to kill off a character's right hand because that character is essential to the development of the main character. You kill off the mentors, and other important characters but NEVER the characters right hand man (or woman).

#27 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

Alfred will be maimed at worst, I think. He's supplies too much dialouge for Bruce to be removed. I can see The Joker dying by someone in the Bat Family's hand. It would be interesting to see Barabara lose it and kill The Joker (supposedly, we all know how deaths end up). If someone in the family HAS to die, I think the most likely candidate would be Dick.

#28 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@batshrine:

I do want to point out that I was just trying to show the two sides of the Batfan communtiy as I know it on this issue, but I thought I made my personal stance clear at the end of the fourth paragraph, I personally like Batman's family better than he himself, but I do think the Joker is making a good argument, and Snyder himself must be anti-side kick, or I doubt he could be directing this story line so well.

Basically, I think it Dark Ages vs Silver Ages kind of thinking, and I love the Silver Age. I love campiness too. And yes, all sidekicks are sort of campy, just like super pets (btw, I love Krypto).

And neither Nolan nor Christian Bale like the concept of Robin, it is a position your most likely to find in people outside of Comic Book fans, and its very common.

#29 Posted by entropy_aegis (15319 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo said:

And finally, Joker may die (its the easiest way for DC to handle his knowledge of their identities), he will DEFINITELY return, probably with amnesia from his apparent death, and by then the Bat family will probably be back together by then anyway.

That's exactly what I fear,writers just stupidly add stuff to the mythos only for it to be retconned or altered in some way eventually.They already did the secret ID amnesia with Riddler,the Batfamily friction was also done in War Games and Fugitive.

None of these accomplished anything in the long run and were flatly ignored,writers should consider long term feasibility before coming up their supposedly brilliant ideas,and this is pretty much why I cant get in to Snyders Batman.He's hellbent on using the same destined to fail gimmicks .

#30 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Alfred will die, and i think Gordon might too.

#31 Posted by BatWatch (2724 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo said:

@batshrine:

I do want to point out that I was just trying to show the two sides of the Batfan communtiy as I know it on this issue, but I thought I made my personal stance clear at the end of the fourth paragraph, I personally like Batman's family better than he himself, but I do think the Joker is making a good argument, and Snyder himself must be anti-side kick, or I doubt he could be directing this story line so well.

Basically, I think it Dark Ages vs Silver Ages kind of thinking, and I love the Silver Age. I love campiness too. And yes, all sidekicks are sort of campy, just like super pets (btw, I love Krypto).

And neither Nolan nor Christian Bale like the concept of Robin, it is a position your most likely to find in people outside of Comic Book fans, and its very common.

I do not think Snyder is anti-sidekick. In interviews, he has said that Joker always tries to find what is strongest in a person and try to make them feel like that is their greatest weakness. By that thinking, Joker might be trying to weaken Batman weaken rather than build him up. On the other hand, Snyder has said that Joker thinks of himself as the guy who makes the Bat-King stronger, so I don't know. Perhaps I am thinking of somebody else's statements on the Death of the Family arch. Too many tie ins. I can't keep them straight anymore.

@entropy_aegis said:

@deaditegonzo said:

And finally, Joker may die (its the easiest way for DC to handle his knowledge of their identities), he will DEFINITELY return, probably with amnesia from his apparent death, and by then the Bat family will probably be back together by then anyway.

That's exactly what I fear,writers just stupidly add stuff to the mythos only for it to be retconned or altered in some way eventually.They already did the secret ID amnesia with Riddler,the Batfamily friction was also done in War Games and Fugitive.

None of these accomplished anything in the long run and were flatly ignored,writers should consider long term feasibility before coming up their supposedly brilliant ideas,and this is pretty much why I cant get in to Snyders Batman.He's hellbent on using the same destined to fail gimmicks .

If they pull the "I know Batman's identity (suddenly crushed by ACME anvil)" crap, my respect for Snyder will drop dramatically.

I don't mind friction coming and going, but the way Riddler and Two-Face were handled after Hush really ticked me off. Two "villains" had massive changes, and DC did absolutely nothing with them. Even if DC felt the need to return them their previous states (which was unnecessary), they could have at least done something in the year or two before they were retconned rather than just have them in limbo.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

#32 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

I`m sure the Joker is going to die in some weird and mysterious way and in a year he will return with his face back on again with absolutely no explanation.

#33 Posted by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: i dont agree with the Nolan lovers and the schumockers remarks because i Hate what schumacker did to Batman and that campy Batman hasnt been in comics since the 80'S I love the Robins even liked Red Hood when he was a bad guy and i love the Nolan movies so that statement didnt really make since to me because I lvoe the Bat Family but i most certinly Hate Schumaker, so dont group us together Please lol

#34 Posted by BatWatch (2724 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joelislegend said:

I`m sure the Joker is going to die in some weird and mysterious way and in a year he will return with his face back on again with absolutely no explanation.

That would be a travesty. I wouldn't be suprised, but still, a travesty.

#35 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

maybe Joker will kill off the Bat-Family's family o-O that seems to be pretty much happening, save for Dick, but the closest thing he has to a family is about to be burned down. i cant offer anything else that hasnt been said

#36 Posted by brucipher (1 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP Alfred.

He has been seen in several issues. Easily a recording when you did hear him. Who else could it be people? lol I was inbetween Al and Jim Gordon till i read the new solicates. There isnt a mention of a tragedy for Batgirl.

Also I have a theory for the gun cover.... Hes going to be awakened by Alfreds ghost. lol. Then hes going to pop up like Yoda and guide Batman. Atleast I hope not.

#37 Posted by Reignmaker (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd like to see a superhero bite the dust. Not sure who, but I wholeheartedly agree with Joker that this family has become bloated.

I don't think anyone other than Morrison would be allowed to kill Damian at this point. Killing Jason Todd would be redundant (though I'd secretly cheer). Batgirl is another one who I wish would go away, but to a lesser extent has the same 'been-there-done-that' problem as Todd. Nightwing is untouchable and will probably be the one leading the group of Batman dissenters after this mess is over.

As others have already pointed out, of all the superhero candidates Tim Drake appears to be the most expendable. The New 52 and Lobdell don't appear to know how to handle him anyway.

#38 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13145 posts) - - Show Bio

@redhoodnet said:

Alfred will be the new Oracle.

With Babs back in costume we need a new Oracle in the N52 and he will be it.

apparently Cyborg is going to be the new Oracle

#39 Posted by detective38 (180 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hope Alfred doesn't die but that looks like just about the only one who is the likely death in the family.

#40 Posted by Chibi-Iroh (388 posts) - - Show Bio

@BR_Havoc: Please for the love of all things good let it be Harley. I either want to see Bruce brutally kill the Joker for whatever it is that he does or I want to see Damian or Harley do it.

#41 Posted by Shark_Repellent_Bat_Spray (745 posts) - - Show Bio

I really hope nobody dies, I would prefer a symbolic "Death Of The Family". We all should know how poorly death is treated in comics books!

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