Burton need's respect

#1 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

Before I begin, I want to state that this isn’t a thread about which director’s franchise is better, or who has the better films. I enjoy both the Burton and the Nolan films, but I feel that since Nolan’s films, Burton’s gets bashed a lot. The Burton films need respect in my opinion, and I think the bat fans that think Nolan is god, need to realise that Burton did a lot for Batman, maybe even more than Nolan. Nolan’s films are no more nearer the Batman we get in the comics, than Burton’s are.

Burton’s Batman89 launched Batman into the late 80’s, early 90’s for the people who weren’t familiar with the character other than 60’s Batman. He brought back the brooding dark side of the character with a bang. Batman-mania was again running rampart like it was in the 60’s, and that was because of Burton. I honestly don’t think that Nolan’s Batman had the impact that Burton’s did. Begins was a great reboot, but compared to how Batman89 reached the masses and the merchandise that it produced, Begins can’t touch it. I’m going to get hate, but I don’t think any of the Nolan films can. The Nolan films grossed a lot of money and are rated highly, but that isn’t the argument here.

With out Burton/Batman mania, there would be no Batman:TAS, one of, if not the greatest superhero animated shows ever made. I'm not sure we'd have the Nolan films either.

I’m also sick of hearing that Nolan’s take is better, closer version. God, wake up and see that its no nearer than Burtons. The reason Burton gets so much flack is because of his take on Batman, his world and his villains. I’ve heard people say its too fantasy, where as Nolan’s is better because its realistic.

If you have constantly read Batman comics, you’ll know that Batman and his world are fantasy and sci/fi, not to the extreme of like a space adventure, but its there. One look at his rouges gallery should show you that. Also his outlandish vehicles and gadgets say the same. He’s also a master detective, master martial artist, peak human, fantastic scientist, works out constantly and patrols Gotham on a night with out showing any fatigue. It’s all a world of fantasy.

In Burton’s world Bruce/Batman is a tormented character, you can see from the way he carries himself, and how he broods. Joker is dangerous; he murders a whole restaurant just to see Vicky Vale, and then tries to kill all of Gotham. He also has the humour. Sounds like classic Joker to me. Joker’s skin is actually bleached white from toxic chemicals too.

I agree that Selina/Catwoman and Penguin changed some, but at least the Penguin is interesting. Penguin is also a great manipulator of the people, and has some tricks up his sleeve to throw at Batman. Sounds ok to me.

Selina is a bit off her rocker, but I think she made a great Catwoman.

There’s a cool Batmobile, Batboat(Returns), Batwing, that look like they come from a Batman comic.

Bruce is seen fixing his own Batmobile in returns, figures out the toxin in 89, destroys the Penguins popularity with the people by hacking the frequency. Sounds like a close comic book comparison to me so far.

Nolan changed the characters of Bane, Joker, Talia, and also Bruce’s skills further from the comics than what Burton did. Bruce relied on Fox way too much. I’ve mentioned Bruce figuring out the toxin and fixing his own stuff. It would have been Fox doing that in Nolan’s. Another argument is that Burton’s kills. Nolan’s didn’t save Ra’s. He blew up loads of parked cars when clearing a way for him to get to Joker when on the Batpod. How did he know they were empty? He let Harvey Dent die. We could nit pick all day.

This isn’t a battle between the two directors’s like I said above. I enjoy both of sets of films. I’m just sick of hearing all the praise that Nolan gets for getting an almost perfect Batman franchise, when it’s far from it. If you truly look and study everything (don’t know why anyone would want to, as that would really kill the film for me), it’s not as close to the comics as people think, and Burton's isn't as bad as people make out it is. Also remember, comics have outlandish things in them, that’s why they are fun.

#2 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6295 posts) - - Show Bio

@neale7: I like the Tim Burton Batman films. :)

I didn't know people had a problem with them.

#3 Posted by SoA (4838 posts) - - Show Bio

the burton movies are classics and didn't disappoint , unlike nolan's. also Michelle Pfeiffer as catwoman : so much better than anne hathaway. while Nolan's first two movie did have a an engaging story and had the batverse ground to reality , burton's tried to bring the comic to life which in my opinion made it awesome. to validate my claim , danny elfman , that is all.

#4 Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose (6295 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

the burton movies are classics and didn't disappoint , unlike nolan's. also Michelle Pfeiffer as catwoman : so much better than anne hathaway. while Nolan's first two movie did have a an engaging story and had the batverse ground to reality , burton's tried to bring the comic to life which in my opinion made it awesome. to validate my claim , danny elfman , that is all.

Very good point.

#5 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

I love the Batmobile. I'd say the batwing is my favourite though, the whole scene with it is brill.

#6 Posted by SupremeHyperion (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

I still thinnk Michael Keaton is the best batman of them all.

#7 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

Burton's Batman (1989) deserves at least a lot of respect from comic book fans. He's the pioneer, he gave us the first great super-hero movie. Without his contribution, I think we wouldn't have all these great films about super-heroes. Furthermore, it's a movie I can always sit back and enjoy. Those that tend to reject it, never understood why that movie was so important. Stan Lee said once he was so "angry" Marvel couldn't offer such a film to the comic book fans until Spiderman 1. See the impact? If you don't like it, at least respect its impact. Nolan's Batman, Marvel's cinematic universe would be out of reach, without Burton's film. And these are the words from a guy that doesn't really like Burton's movies in general (that's me).

#8 Posted by The_Lunact_And_Manic (3286 posts) - - Show Bio

Burton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The rest.

But I don't like his Superheroes movies that much...its like... Grant Morrison.... writing.... Deadpool..

#9 Posted by RustyRoy (12732 posts) - - Show Bio

I love his batman movies, his batman movies and Batman Tas made me love the character, I can never forget the night I watched the movie.

#10 Posted by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

i can throw his movies on at anytime and enjoy them they are great, Dark and stylish its a shame the studio wanted a more child friendly batman for the 3rd movie bc Burton did a amazing job, and now the studios have ruined him by always limiting how dark he goes on all his movies. Long live The Burton Bat films!

#11 Posted by Ninjablade09 (3165 posts) - - Show Bio

I wasn't a big fan of Batman or Batman Returns but I will admit they both had great moments in each film. I really like what they did with costume designs. I have respect for Burton because without him we may not have had good dark superhero movies. They would be like Batman Forever or worse 60's Batman. I liked the darker tone of Returns. It was so dark that they had to make it child friendly. That's how Batman should be dark and scary.

#12 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

I understand and respect what Burton did for Batman, his dark gritty take was the first serious incarnation of Batman made into visual media. Batman TAS stemmed from that, and from then on Bruce Timm created a universe filled with so much awe-inspiring greatness. What I won't and will never respect is Tim Burton's lack of respect for the Batman mythos, as well as Schumacher's abominations. Burton has been on the record saying he has never read a comic book, and when he goes off and butchers the origins of Batman, Catwoman, and Penguin, I have to say that it was his interest in the story and what he could do with Batman that made him want to make the movies. Granted, any director would think the same exact thing, but they wouldn't disregard the source material and change things for the sake of changing them if their ego wasn't in the way. Burton saw that he could make Batman dark and broody, but he does that with almost everything he touches. He has to give it the "Burton" feel, and for him to just screw around with it just for the sake of it makes me lose alot of respect for him as a director. With all that said, it is because of him that Batman is where he is, in social media standards. The show wouldn't have been made if it weren't for his take, but I honestly think that the show progressed the character and mythos much farther than what Burton did with his two movies. I will say that his two movies, are far better than what Schumacher did, so at least he didn't butcher it as much as Joel did.

Nolan is only respected as much as he is because he created films surrounding the events of Bruce Wayne in a realistic environment. I love his movies because they are much more than some action/mystery superhero stuff that pours out of Marvel every couple of years, (Granted the Cinematic Universe they created is a huge accomplishment but they produce movies outside of it as well. no one wants to talk about Spiderman 3, the two Fantastic Four movies, or the two Ghost Riders) But they aren't perfect, and I completely recognize that. They are just higher in quality and have many different themes, and take from so many different Batman stories, that it is hard to not find it as Batman comic book reader's dream come true. In that same instance, there is so much he didn't or couldn't do because of the realistic tone to the films. Marvel on the other hand doesn't have to worry about that, and they have prospered with their successful movies. But when it comes down to it, out of the 8 Batman movies ever made:

- Batman the Movie (1966)

- Batman (1989)

- Batman Returns (1992)

- Batman Forever (1995)

- Batman and Robin (1997)

- Batman Begins (2005)

- The Dark Knight (2008)

- The Dark Knight Rises (2012)

People are going to pick out Nolan's run, and Burton's 89 Batman.

#13 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Keaton is still the best live-action Batman.

#14 Edited by ccraft (5276 posts) - - Show Bio

Only thing i liked about the movie, respect :)

#15 Edited by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari:

You do make a good point about everything.

I don't think he butchered Batman and Penguin. I like penguin in Returns, his origin is weird, but hey it’s interesting. Just my opinion though :-)

The origin where a young Joker was Bruce’s parent’s killers was done for screen tension more than anything I think. It worked at the time I suppose. Catwoman was crazy though.

I see where your coming from with Nolan's films and the realistic take, but as you mention with Marvel, they don't really offer that much of a realistic take to their superhero films. They stick with the costumes, the silliness and action of a comic and it pays off. It looks like a comic book film. I think Burton did achieve that in a sense without dragging Batman back to the campy ness.

Batman:TAS defiantly helped batman grow even further. It even gave us Mask of Phantasm. Both wouldn’t have been possible without Burton as we agree.

I get what you mean with the "Burton feel", but Batman89 was only his 3rd film after Pee-Wee and Beetle Juice, both comedies. Beetle juice was maybe more horror comedy, when i think about. The "Burton feel" definitely had more presence in Batman Returns after what he'd done with Edward Scissorhands.

#16 Posted by Humanoid (132 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't recall what it's called, but - Batman Returns maybe? - the Batman film starring Penguin and Catwoman was brilliant. The rest were mediocre at best.

#17 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@Humanoid: Yeah that was Batman Returns.

#18 Posted by conradoaccorsi (301 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opnion, Burton's movies were better,either BTAS or either Nolan movies wouldn't exist without it. BTAS was the thing that made me love Batman. So please Nolan fanboys shut up.

#19 Posted by daredevil21134 (11831 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

Keaton is still the best live-action Batman.

I like Val Kilmer lol

Online
#20 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Val is the second best. It's a shame that he didn't have much to work with.

#21 Posted by End_Boss (738 posts) - - Show Bio

Burton's film is wildly overrated. So is Keaton as Batman. That is all.

#22 Posted by entropy_aegis (15319 posts) - - Show Bio

@neale7 said:

Before I begin, I want to state that this isn’t a thread about which director’s franchise is better, or who has the better films. I enjoy both the Burton and the Nolan films, but I feel that since Nolan’s films, Burton’s gets bashed a lot. The Burton films need respect in my opinion, and I think the bat fans that think Nolan is god, need to realise that Burton did a lot for Batman, maybe even more than Nolan. Nolan’s films are no more nearer the Batman we get in the comics, than Burton’s are.

Burton’s Batman89 launched Batman into the late 80’s, early 90’s for the people who weren’t familiar with the character other than 60’s Batman. He brought back the brooding dark side of the character with a bang. Batman-mania was again running rampart like it was in the 60’s, and that was because of Burton. I honestly don’t think that Nolan’s Batman had the impact that Burton’s did. Begins was a great reboot, but compared to how Batman89 reached the masses and the merchandise that it produced, Begins can’t touch it. I’m going to get hate, but I don’t think any of the Nolan films can. The Nolan films grossed a lot of money and are rated highly, but that isn’t the argument here.

With out Burton/Batman mania, there would be no Batman:TAS, one of, if not the greatest superhero animated shows ever made. I'm not sure we'd have the Nolan films either.

I’m also sick of hearing that Nolan’s take is better, closer version. God, wake up and see that its no nearer than Burtons. The reason Burton gets so much flack is because of his take on Batman, his world and his villains. I’ve heard people say its too fantasy, where as Nolan’s is better because its realistic.

If you have constantly read Batman comics, you’ll know that Batman and his world are fantasy and sci/fi, not to the extreme of like a space adventure, but its there. One look at his rouges gallery should show you that. Also his outlandish vehicles and gadgets say the same. He’s also a master detective, master martial artist, peak human, fantastic scientist, works out constantly and patrols Gotham on a night with out showing any fatigue. It’s all a world of fantasy.

In Burton’s world Bruce/Batman is a tormented character, you can see from the way he carries himself, and how he broods. Joker is dangerous; he murders a whole restaurant just to see Vicky Vale, and then tries to kill all of Gotham. He also has the humour. Sounds like classic Joker to me. Joker’s skin is actually bleached white from toxic chemicals too.

I agree that Selina/Catwoman and Penguin changed some, but at least the Penguin is interesting. Penguin is also a great manipulator of the people, and has some tricks up his sleeve to throw at Batman. Sounds ok to me.

Selina is a bit off her rocker, but I think she made a great Catwoman.

There’s a cool Batmobile, Batboat(Returns), Batwing, that look like they come from a Batman comic.

Bruce is seen fixing his own Batmobile in returns, figures out the toxin in 89, destroys the Penguins popularity with the people by hacking the frequency. Sounds like a close comic book comparison to me so far.

Nolan changed the characters of Bane, Joker, Talia, and also Bruce’s skills further from the comics than what Burton did. Bruce relied on Fox way too much. I’ve mentioned Bruce figuring out the toxin and fixing his own stuff. It would have been Fox doing that in Nolan’s. Another argument is that Burton’s kills. Nolan’s didn’t save Ra’s. He blew up loads of parked cars when clearing a way for him to get to Joker when on the Batpod. How did he know they were empty? He let Harvey Dent die. We could nit pick all day.

This isn’t a battle between the two directors’s like I said above. I enjoy both of sets of films. I’m just sick of hearing all the praise that Nolan gets for getting an almost perfect Batman franchise, when it’s far from it. If you truly look and study everything (don’t know why anyone would want to, as that would really kill the film for me), it’s not as close to the comics as people think, and Burton's isn't as bad as people make out it is. Also remember, comics have outlandish things in them, that’s why they are fun.

This is where you're wrong,none of those characters were changed beyond the aesthetics.Penguin,Joker and Catwoman on the other hand were drastically altered by Burton,sure they looked like their comicbook counterparts,but their personalities,goals,motivations and origins were just changed A LOT.Joker killed Batman's parents...yeah doesn't sound right,Joker was in love with Vale...doesn't sound right either.His obsession with her led to his downfall,it made him predictable,this ain't Joker it's a generic villain who tries to make out with the heroes girl and gets his ass kicked.

Burtons Batman doesn't just kill,he kills and then tells others not to kill... LOL WUT,his kills also depend on his mood swings,your Ra's al Ghul,Dent comparison doesn't add up,Batman had to make a choice for the greater good,he didn't set Dent on fire or attach a bomb to Ra's al Ghul's chest just for kicks.

Burton also got lots of other things wrong,Alfred,Gordon seriously what was their significance? you also talk about fantasy but it wasn't Batman fantasy,it was Burton fantasy,it's his mark and you'll find that in a lot of his movies.It had nothing to do with what he felt was the best tone for Batman,he was merely bringing his own style to the table.

#23 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Batman was no more a detective and great scientist in Nolan's trilogy than he was in Burton’s; he left Fox to do almost everything for him. That’s still a drastic change in his personality. It's a major part of who batman is. If batman started killing in the comics for the greater good, would that be ok with you? Look i'm not bashing your Nolan god, but its far from the perfect batman representation that Nolan fans make it out to be. I started the thread because Burton deserves credit, a lot more than some batman fans give him. I think his take worked fine for batman and for the time, and his fantasy influence was only really felt on returns. Then again this is just my opinion, everyone’s is different

#24 Posted by entropy_aegis (15319 posts) - - Show Bio

@neale7 said:

@entropy_aegis: Batman was no more a detective and great scientist in Nolan's trilogy than he was in Burton’s; he left Fox to do almost everything for him. That’s still a drastic change in his personality. It's a major part of who batman is. If batman started killing in the comics for the greater good, would that be ok with you? Look i'm not bashing your Nolan god, but its far from the perfect batman representation that Nolan fans make it out to be. I started the thread because Burton deserves credit, a lot more than some batman fans give him. I think his take worked fine for batman and for the time, and his fantasy influence was only really felt on returns. Then again this is just my opinion, everyone’s is different

So Nolan got it right 90% and Burton got it right 10%,if that makes you happy.As for Batman killing go back and watch the movies,he had choices,he couldn't have saved the boy without killing Harvey,that is nothing like Burtman setting some circus moron on fire.

Burton's movies are a thing of the past,what do you hope to accomplish by "giving him more credit",his movies had good things and bad,I see no point whatsoever.

As for calling me a Nolan worshiper(indirectly),kinda ironic coming from a guy who's trying to get some respect for an outdated relic of the past.

#25 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@neale7 said:

Before I begin, I want to state that this isn’t a thread about which director’s franchise is better, or who has the better films. I enjoy both the Burton and the Nolan films, but I feel that since Nolan’s films, Burton’s gets bashed a lot. The Burton films need respect in my opinion, and I think the bat fans that think Nolan is god, need to realise that Burton did a lot for Batman, maybe even more than Nolan. Nolan’s films are no more nearer the Batman we get in the comics, than Burton’s are.

Burton’s Batman89 launched Batman into the late 80’s, early 90’s for the people who weren’t familiar with the character other than 60’s Batman. He brought back the brooding dark side of the character with a bang. Batman-mania was again running rampart like it was in the 60’s, and that was because of Burton. I honestly don’t think that Nolan’s Batman had the impact that Burton’s did. Begins was a great reboot, but compared to how Batman89 reached the masses and the merchandise that it produced, Begins can’t touch it. I’m going to get hate, but I don’t think any of the Nolan films can. The Nolan films grossed a lot of money and are rated highly, but that isn’t the argument here.

With out Burton/Batman mania, there would be no Batman:TAS, one of, if not the greatest superhero animated shows ever made. I'm not sure we'd have the Nolan films either.

I’m also sick of hearing that Nolan’s take is better, closer version. God, wake up and see that its no nearer than Burtons. The reason Burton gets so much flack is because of his take on Batman, his world and his villains. I’ve heard people say its too fantasy, where as Nolan’s is better because its realistic.

If you have constantly read Batman comics, you’ll know that Batman and his world are fantasy and sci/fi, not to the extreme of like a space adventure, but its there. One look at his rouges gallery should show you that. Also his outlandish vehicles and gadgets say the same. He’s also a master detective, master martial artist, peak human, fantastic scientist, works out constantly and patrols Gotham on a night with out showing any fatigue. It’s all a world of fantasy.

In Burton’s world Bruce/Batman is a tormented character, you can see from the way he carries himself, and how he broods. Joker is dangerous; he murders a whole restaurant just to see Vicky Vale, and then tries to kill all of Gotham. He also has the humour. Sounds like classic Joker to me. Joker’s skin is actually bleached white from toxic chemicals too.

I agree that Selina/Catwoman and Penguin changed some, but at least the Penguin is interesting. Penguin is also a great manipulator of the people, and has some tricks up his sleeve to throw at Batman. Sounds ok to me.

Selina is a bit off her rocker, but I think she made a great Catwoman.

There’s a cool Batmobile, Batboat(Returns), Batwing, that look like they come from a Batman comic.

Bruce is seen fixing his own Batmobile in returns, figures out the toxin in 89, destroys the Penguins popularity with the people by hacking the frequency. Sounds like a close comic book comparison to me so far.

Nolan changed the characters of Bane, Joker, Talia, and also Bruce’s skills further from the comics than what Burton did. Bruce relied on Fox way too much. I’ve mentioned Bruce figuring out the toxin and fixing his own stuff. It would have been Fox doing that in Nolan’s. Another argument is that Burton’s kills. Nolan’s didn’t save Ra’s. He blew up loads of parked cars when clearing a way for him to get to Joker when on the Batpod. How did he know they were empty? He let Harvey Dent die. We could nit pick all day.

This isn’t a battle between the two directors’s like I said above. I enjoy both of sets of films. I’m just sick of hearing all the praise that Nolan gets for getting an almost perfect Batman franchise, when it’s far from it. If you truly look and study everything (don’t know why anyone would want to, as that would really kill the film for me), it’s not as close to the comics as people think, and Burton's isn't as bad as people make out it is. Also remember, comics have outlandish things in them, that’s why they are fun.

This is where you're wrong,none of those characters were changed beyond the aesthetics.Penguin,Joker and Catwoman on the other hand were drastically altered by Burton,sure they looked like their comicbook counterparts,but their personalities,goals,motivations and origins were just changed A LOT.Joker killed Batman's parents...yeah doesn't sound right,Joker was in love with Vale...doesn't sound right either.His obsession with her led to his downfall,it made him predictable,this ain't Joker it's a generic villain who tries to make out with the heroes girl and gets his ass kicked.

Burtons Batman doesn't just kill,he kills and then tells others not to kill... LOL WUT,his kills also depend on his mood swings,your Ra's al Ghul,Dent comparison doesn't add up,Batman had to make a choice for the greater good,he didn't set Dent on fire or attach a bomb to Ra's al Ghul's chest just for kicks.

Burton also got lots of other things wrong,Alfred,Gordon seriously what was their significance? you also talk about fantasy but it wasn't Batman fantasy,it was Burton fantasy,it's his mark and you'll find that in a lot of his movies.It had nothing to do with what he felt was the best tone for Batman,he was merely bringing his own style to the table.

BRAVO SIR.

We dont agree in many thing, but what you said, is the evidence about how much Burton failed with Batman.

Also another point you maybe want to add, is that TDK follows the Joker as he was in Batman 1, he changes radio for tv, but he even use a police suit as he did in Batman 1 and he wasnt a guy with white skin, he used make up and had no past, no origin and it look to have only one reason to do things, to beat Batman.

People cry about how much Nolan changed the Joker, even when he is doing the Joker exactly in the same way that the was when he started.

Also, you can notice the 60s show Joker and Heath Ledger Joker used the same clown mask, both use make up, this is obvious since you can se the mustache and the fact that the Joker rest of body dont look white and you can see it in that show.

People forget that it wasnt Burton who start everything, it was the Adam West show, the one that made Batman mainstream famous and the super heroes movie are being made because of Superman, not Batman.

Also Christopher Reeve as Clark Kent and Superman are the evidence of great acting, not Micheal Keaton, this said by a Batman fan.

Burton Version of Batman is pretty damn weak.

Donner Version of Superman is by far superior.

many of Superman
Men Of Steel (1978-2013)

Without Chistopher Reeve we would never had Superheroe movies.

#26 Posted by comicdude23 (11399 posts) - - Show Bio

Burton's work was trash.

#27 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

Look i'm not saying that burton got everything right or that Nolan got everything wrong or vice-verca. I think Nolan's films are brill. I just wanted to make a thread that gave credit to Burton. It was not made to become a vs match. Both films have there pro's and con's, and it's my right to enjoy both, and i do. I love burton's films, and Nolan's films. I could bash Burtons, and i could bash Nolan's, as both had flaws. Yeah maybe Burton's more than Nolan's, but the fact is, i don't care. I enjoy them, and as long as i enjoy them thats fine with me. I don't need to be a person to pick out flaws with everything. I only did a small amount to highlight a few things, but if i'm being honest, i don't really care if a film isn't 1000% correct to the source martial, it's not a major problem, as long as it's good, and in my opinion Burton's batman films are good.

#28 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

Too put it simply you wouldn't have this ( newer Batman Films) without that (older Batman films). This is common since, and not debatable at all, in my eyes.

#29 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

@neale7 said:

Look i'm not saying that burton got everything right or that Nolan got everything wrong or vice-verca. I think Nolan's films are brill. I just wanted to make a thread that gave credit to Burton. It was not made to become a vs match. Both films have there pro's and con's, and it's my right to enjoy both, and i do. I love burton's films, and Nolan's films. I could bash Burtons, and i could bash Nolan's, as both had flaws. Yeah maybe Burton's more than Nolan's, but the fact is, i don't care. I enjoy them, and as long as i enjoy them thats fine with me. I don't need to be a person to pick out flaws with everything. I only did a small amount to highlight a few things, but if i'm being honest, i don't really care if a film isn't 1000% correct to the source martial, it's not a major problem, as long as it's good, and in my opinion Burton's batman films are good.

100% there is no way something could be 1000%.

Also the source is where thing came from and the essence of the character, many confuse esthetic with aesthetics.

#30 Posted by neale7 (124 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@neale7 said:

Look i'm not saying that burton got everything right or that Nolan got everything wrong or vice-verca. I think Nolan's films are brill. I just wanted to make a thread that gave credit to Burton. It was not made to become a vs match. Both films have there pro's and con's, and it's my right to enjoy both, and i do. I love burton's films, and Nolan's films. I could bash Burtons, and i could bash Nolan's, as both had flaws. Yeah maybe Burton's more than Nolan's, but the fact is, i don't care. I enjoy them, and as long as i enjoy them thats fine with me. I don't need to be a person to pick out flaws with everything. I only did a small amount to highlight a few things, but if i'm being honest, i don't really care if a film isn't 1000% correct to the source martial, it's not a major problem, as long as it's good, and in my opinion Burton's batman films are good.

100% there is no way something could be 1000%.

Also the source is where thing came from and the essence of the character, many confuse esthetic with aesthetics.

It's called sarcastic exaggeration. Plus i wasn't confused, i ment source martial, thats why i put it.

#31 Posted by TheCannon (18742 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree 100%. The Burton films are simply classics.

#32 Posted by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

Classics! without them we would not of had TAS so give some credit

#33 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7849 posts) - - Show Bio

I enjoy the original Batman movie 5x more than any other one.

#34 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

the burton movies are classics and didn't disappoint.

Yes.

#35 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

The first film was good, the second film had much better action, but had too much of Tim's Gothic-horror attached, we really didn't need the the nose-biting, bile-spewing, sexually-overdriven Penguin. Catwomen could have been toned down too, but was not too bad on her own, but that death scene with Max....srsly.... Tim's problems tend to be that he wants to add goth and horror tones to everything he does, it is like Micheal Bay and explosions, but you can get away with too many explosions.

On a side note, Joel's glaring mistakes in the third movie were the villains, I actually like the neon though, 4th was him completely selling out.

Ironically Batman 2 and 3 suffer from the same issue; 1 had overly dark-gothic villains while the other had overly wacky-zany villains. Batman 1 had more story and less action compared to the other films while Batman 4 had too much over-the-top-action and little story. what if Joel had collaborated with Tim from the start to finish.

It was fine for its time though.

#36 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

The first film was good, the second film had much better action, but had too much of Tim's Gothic-horror attached, we really didn't need the the nose-biting, bile-spewing, sexually-overdriven Penguin. Catwomen could have been toned down too, but was not too bad on her own, but that death scene with Max....srsly.... Tim's problems tend to be that he wants to add goth and horror tones to everything he does, it is like Micheal Bay and explosions, but you can get away with too many explosions.

On a side note, Joel's glaring mistakes in the third movie were the villains, I actually like the neon though, 4th was him completely selling out.

Ironically Batman 2 and 3 suffer from the same issue; 1 had overly dark-gothic villains while the other had overly wacky-zany villains. Batman 1 had more story and less action compared to the other films while Batman 4 had too much over-the-top-action and little story. what if Joel had collaborated with Tim from the start to finish.

It was fine for its time though.

Well Joel wanted to keep the Darkness and change the Gothic aspect for Art Deco, that is how Gotham has to look like, since is based on the Art Deco part of New York.

The studio tell him to make a family movie based on Batman, later they said Forever was too dark and not childish enough, then we got Batman and Robin, belive it or not, WB belive Batman should be afamily movie, they stop this after this movie failed, then they notice dark Batman sells way more that funny and family friendly.

#37 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

All we need is music and Ice skates.
#38 Posted by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

All we need is music and Ice skates.

why would you Blame tim burton for poison ivy he wasnt even a producer on Batman and Robin he had nothing to do with batman after Batman Forever and on that he was just a producer.

#39 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

All we need is music and Ice skates.

@drgnx said:

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

why would you Blame tim burton for poison ivy he wasnt even a producer on Batman and Robin he had nothing to do with batman after Batman Forever and on that he was just a producer.

I blame him for the studio's dark-batman-phobia, not directly for the character depictions (those are all Joel), just because he was no longer on the project does not mean he didn't leave his mark. The reason for the whole shift was largely because of his depiction of Batman Returns. Batman & Robin was more of a domino effect, in that once the shift started as a fallout of BR, it kept going. IF he had kept BR a little more straight, things could have turned out differently. He went way over the top on his villains, not for my tastes but obviously for enough parents and die-hards to get upset.

#40 Edited by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

All we need is music and Ice skates.

@havoc1201 said:

@drgnx said:

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

why would you Blame tim burton for poison ivy he wasnt even a producer on Batman and Robin he had nothing to do with batman after Batman Forever and on that he was just a producer.

I blame him for the studio's dark-batman-phobia, not directly for the character depictions (those are all Joel), just because he was no longer on the project does not mean he didn't leave his mark. The reason for the whole shift was largely because of his depiction of Batman Returns. Batman & Robin was more of a domino effect, in that once the shift started as a fallout of BR, it kept going. IF he had kept BR a little more straight, things could have turned out differently. He went way over the top on his villains, not for my tastes but obviously for enough parents and die-hards to get upset.

the fact is his movies did very well at the Box office but the reason the studios didnt want a dark batman anymore was mostly bc of McDonalds bc they didnt want to put kid toys in a meal from a movie that was rated pg13 Parents really had no major issues with Burtons Batman but bc the franchises got upset the studio decided that Burton would no longer direct Batman and they would go kiddy style in order to bring the happy meals back, also we can blame the studio for Burtons lighter toned movies since batman returns he has not been allowed to go as dark as he use to go bc the studios would not allow it for fear of no endorsements and now we get a disney water downed Burton so really out of anyone who is to blame for the campy batman it would be studio exec.

#41 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

All we need is music and Ice skates.

@drgnx said:

@havoc1201 said:

@drgnx said:

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

why would you Blame tim burton for poison ivy he wasnt even a producer on Batman and Robin he had nothing to do with batman after Batman Forever and on that he was just a producer.

I blame him for the studio's dark-batman-phobia, not directly for the character depictions (those are all Joel), just because he was no longer on the project does not mean he didn't leave his mark. The reason for the whole shift was largely because of his depiction of Batman Returns. Batman & Robin was more of a domino effect, in that once the shift started as a fallout of BR, it kept going. IF he had kept BR a little more straight, things could have turned out differently. He went way over the top on his villains, not for my tastes but obviously for enough parents and die-hards to get upset.

the fact is his movies did very well at the Box office but the reason the studios didnt want a dark batman anymore was mostly bc of McDonalds bc they didnt want to put kid toys in a meal from a movie that was rated pg13 Parents really had no major issues with Burtons Batman but bc the franchises got upset the studio decided that Burton would no longer direct Batman and they would go kiddy style in order to bring the happy meals back, also we can blame the studio for Burtons lighter toned movies since batman returns he has not been allowed to go as dark as he use to go bc the studios would not allow it for fear of no endorsements and now we get a disney water downed Burton so really out of anyone who is to blame for the campy batman it would be studio exec.

Okay, McDonalds I forgot about. I do recall them making noise, but I thought their concerns were related to parents concerns. To be honest I know they have a lot of sway, but I wouldn't have figured this big a swing just because of them vs other toy outlets. That is even more disturbing.

I guess we didn't have Robo Cop happy meals
#42 Posted by havoc1201 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@havoc1201 said:

All we need is music and Ice skates.

@drgnx said:

@havoc1201 said:

@drgnx said:

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

why would you Blame tim burton for poison ivy he wasnt even a producer on Batman and Robin he had nothing to do with batman after Batman Forever and on that he was just a producer.

I blame him for the studio's dark-batman-phobia, not directly for the character depictions (those are all Joel), just because he was no longer on the project does not mean he didn't leave his mark. The reason for the whole shift was largely because of his depiction of Batman Returns. Batman & Robin was more of a domino effect, in that once the shift started as a fallout of BR, it kept going. IF he had kept BR a little more straight, things could have turned out differently. He went way over the top on his villains, not for my tastes but obviously for enough parents and die-hards to get upset.

the fact is his movies did very well at the Box office but the reason the studios didnt want a dark batman anymore was mostly bc of McDonalds bc they didnt want to put kid toys in a meal from a movie that was rated pg13 Parents really had no major issues with Burtons Batman but bc the franchises got upset the studio decided that Burton would no longer direct Batman and they would go kiddy style in order to bring the happy meals back, also we can blame the studio for Burtons lighter toned movies since batman returns he has not been allowed to go as dark as he use to go bc the studios would not allow it for fear of no endorsements and now we get a disney water downed Burton so really out of anyone who is to blame for the campy batman it would be studio exec.

Okay, McDonalds I forgot about. I do recall them making noise, but I thought their concerns were related to parents concerns. To be honest I know they have a lot of sway, but I wouldn't have figured this big a swing just because of them vs other toy outlets. That is even more disturbing.

I guess we didn't have Robo Cop happy meals

haha nice

#43 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201 said:

@drgnx said:

@havoc1201 said:

All we need is music and Ice skates.

@drgnx said:

@havoc1201 said:

@drgnx said:

@DeathpooltheT1000:

Yeah, I guess, I could be too harsh on him but I still think he could his villains could have been less wacky. Batman & Robin reminds me of a musical without the music. When Poison Ivy comes out of that flower it reminds me of a play, I guess I can blame that one on the studios and Tim to a degree.

why would you Blame tim burton for poison ivy he wasnt even a producer on Batman and Robin he had nothing to do with batman after Batman Forever and on that he was just a producer.

I blame him for the studio's dark-batman-phobia, not directly for the character depictions (those are all Joel), just because he was no longer on the project does not mean he didn't leave his mark. The reason for the whole shift was largely because of his depiction of Batman Returns. Batman & Robin was more of a domino effect, in that once the shift started as a fallout of BR, it kept going. IF he had kept BR a little more straight, things could have turned out differently. He went way over the top on his villains, not for my tastes but obviously for enough parents and die-hards to get upset.

the fact is his movies did very well at the Box office but the reason the studios didnt want a dark batman anymore was mostly bc of McDonalds bc they didnt want to put kid toys in a meal from a movie that was rated pg13 Parents really had no major issues with Burtons Batman but bc the franchises got upset the studio decided that Burton would no longer direct Batman and they would go kiddy style in order to bring the happy meals back, also we can blame the studio for Burtons lighter toned movies since batman returns he has not been allowed to go as dark as he use to go bc the studios would not allow it for fear of no endorsements and now we get a disney water downed Burton so really out of anyone who is to blame for the campy batman it would be studio exec.

Okay, McDonalds I forgot about. I do recall them making noise, but I thought their concerns were related to parents concerns. To be honest I know they have a lot of sway, but I wouldn't have figured this big a swing just because of them vs other toy outlets. That is even more disturbing.

I guess we didn't have Robo Cop happy meals

haha nice

In an interesting twist on the concept of the ‘Happy Meal’, a McDonalds restaurant in New Zealand managed to give away a condom with one of its children’s meals.

The condom was discovered by seven-year-old Maia Whitaker and her grandparents, Suzanne and Rowan Hatch, in a McDonalds in Wellington. The condom (a green Durex one, with packet, in case you were wondering) came inside a small sports bag that came free with the meal.

‘I was pretty horrified really, the fact my granddaughter was going to look in the bag and find this thing. It would be difficult to explain, she’s only seven,’ said Mr Hatch.

A spokesperson for McDonalds explained that the sports bags were a late substitute for the previous Happy Meal toy, which had sold out.

The one that Maia got had been unsealed for display purposes, said the spokesperson. ‘Somehow’ the condom ended up in the bag, and the bag ended up with the customer.

Illinois 8-Year-Old Finds Bag of Marijuana in McDonald's Happy Meal

A 17-year-old employee of an Ottawa, Ill., McDonald's is out of work and facing drug charges after allegedly hiding marijuana and a lighter in the Happy Meal

Keith Irelan and his three children went through a McDonald's drive-thru Monday night to order Happy Meals. They were on their way to meet their mother at a nearby school for a picnic, police said.

But one of the children — an 8-year-old girl — got a lighter, pipe, and bag of marijuana in her Happy Meal, according to Ottawa Police Chief Brian Zeilmann. Her father went to the police.

Those one are some Really Happy Meals.

#44 Posted by Whodid (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok just to bring it back to Batman, not that I don't appreciate a good Happy Meal conversation.

You have more to thank Burton for than the two films he did, plus Batman TAS, the whole DCAU wouldn't exist if it weren't for him, and neither would the Arkham games, or Nolans films, I dread to think where Batman would be now if it wasn't for Burton bringing him back to popularity, beyond the comics of course, but even the popularity of the movies he made must of boosted his appearances in comics too. As for the arguments that Nolans Batman kills, there is an argument to be had there, however with Burtons he is a cold blooded killer, in Returns he strapped a bomb to someone's chest and knocked him off a roof. No argument or interesting did he cross the line talks to be had there. That said I do still love Batman and Batman Returns, as much as the Nolan trilogy, if people want to use hate on something I suggest directing it at the what I like to call how not to make a Batman movie Batman & Robin(1997)

#45 Posted by Xwraith (18253 posts) - - Show Bio

Would Batman even be the biggest name in comics if not for Burton? I say no.

#46 Posted by cattlebattle (12775 posts) - - Show Bio

The Burton films are awesome, who wouldn't respect them. 
 
I have always thought Keaton was an amazing Batman. Christian Bale is a great actor but his performance as Batman seems a bit forced with that voice and all the yelling. Keaton was just natural to the point where he actually smiles while in the Batsuit and still looks intimidating.

#47 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

i think burton films were very good, i respect him

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