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    Batman

    Character » Batman appears in 23635 issues.

    Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.

    Batman's Top 10 most heroic moments

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    Anjales_II

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    #1  Edited By Anjales_II

    When it comes to Batman, the first things that come to mind are his bad-ass persona, the awesome gadgets, the complex villains, the memorable moments, but at the end of the day, Batman's defining aspect is the fact that he is a hero first and foremost. These are Batman's top 10 heroic moments that best feature him as an inspiration and a savior to Gotham city.

    10- Choosing to save a little girl over catching the Joker (Detective Comics #1)

    The first issue of Detective Comics in the New 52 Reboot featured the return of Batman's arch-nemesis, the Joker. The villain has been off the grid for a while, and Batman has been looking for him for months, knowing that once Joker makes his appearance, people die. After a long search, Batman finally tracks down his nemesis in an abandoned building, as the Joker was in the middle of a gruesome murder. As he is cornered, the Joker sets off some explosive to distract the Dark Knight and dives off the window. Batman, with the Joker locked in his sights, is ready to dive after his enemy and catch him once and for all, but seconds before doing so, he hears a cry for help from a little girl who was trapped in the building. A decision had to be made, save the girl or catch the Joker. As far as Batman was concerned, this wasn't even a choice. Without hesitation, Batman shields the girl from the flames and gets her to safety, at the expense of losing the Joker's trail. However, it is a decision that Batman would make again, a testament to his heroism.

    9- Saving a cat while fighting SWAT team (Batman: Year One)

    In his first year as a crime-fighter, Batman is cornered by Brandon and his trigger happy SWAT team in an abandoned building. The corrupt SWAT team are known to shoot first, ask questions later,and are willing to shoot anything in their sight to take down their target, having already killed a homeless person during the crossfire and injured several bystanders. Despite being wounded, out-numbered and out-gunned, Batman is intent on putting a stop to the bloodshed, using the shadows to his advantage, but when one of the thugs is startled by the untimely appearance of a cat, the Dark Knight exposes his position, leaps to the rescue of the feline from the rash cop's gunfire and continues to expertly defeat his enemies.

    8- Stops the Joker from poisoning Gotham's water supply ( The Man who Laughs)

    In his first appearance in Gotham City, Joker targeted Gotham's wealthiest, including Bruce Wayne himself, but that was only a prelude to his master plan: to poison Gotham's water supply with his signature Joker Venom, leaving the entire denizens of Gotham to die with a smile on their faces. Though he failed to save most of Joker's wealthy targets, even almost succumbing to the Joker Venom himself, Batman will not allow this mad man to kill his city. Arriving too late to stop the Joker from administering his toxin in Gotham's water pipeline, Batman decides to destroy the pipeline, leaving Gotham without water for several weeks, but in the process, saving the city from the evil madman's scheme. This shows the lengths Batman is willing to go to, to save his city.

    7- Inspires the people of Gotham (The Dark Knight Returns)

    After an electro-magnetic pulse from a nuclear missile left the city without any power, Gotham plunged into chaos, as the Mutants gang escaped from prison, the people fight among themselves and blood spills on the streets, it is up to Batman to restore order. Rallying the group of Batman-inspired vigilantes known as the Sons of Batman, along with Robin, the Dark Knight leads the charge and contains the violence on the streets. He then proceeds to give the people of Gotham an inspiring speech where he encourages them to clean up the streets and do the same thing he's doing: Lead by example. This results in Gotham becoming the safest city in the country.

    6- Comforting Barbara after she was crippled (The Killing Joke)

    In the Joker's most heinous scheme, he kidnaps Jim Gordon and shoots his daughter Barbara, leaving her crippled in a hospital bed. You would think that the first thing Batman would do is run through the entire criminsal underworld looking for the clown. Of course he does that, but first, he passed by the former Batgirl in the hospital, sits by her side, placing his hand over hers to comfort her, to let her know that he will save her father and take the villain down. In the early issues of the New 52 volume of Batgirl, Barbara revealed that, following the days of the incident, Batman would visit her everyday, sitting hours by her bedside. This shows Batman's compassionate side and how much he cares about his allies.

    5- Sits with Ace in her last moments (Justice League the Animated series)

    In a story-arc from the Justice League Cartoon, a young telepath named Ace possessed reality warping abilities. She was also dying, and her death will kill millions. The only way to stop this is to kill her using a device from Amanda Waller. Batman volunteers to go, but instead of killing her, he convinces her to change things and then sits with her, holds her hand in her last moments.

    4- Saving Gordon's Child (Batman: Year One):

    In the ending of Batman Year One, Falcone sends one of his thugs to kidnap Gordon's wife and new born child. Though he manages to save Barbara, his son is taken away. As Gordon is struggling with the thug who is holding his son hostage, and the three of them fall off the bridge. Then, Batman, without his costume, selflessly dives off the bridge and saves the boy. Jim, who survives the fall, stands face to face with the vigilante, but without being able to see his face, advises him to go before the cops show up. Bruce risked his life and secret identity to save the child's life.

    3- Knightfall

    You would think that if a Super-Hero isn't feeling too well, he'll sit the night out, maybe let his allies watch over the city while he recovers. Now, imagine that every single criminal he ever put away has escaped, and he isn't feeling too well, he'll just sit this one out right? Not in Batman's case. After, the villain Bane breaks out all of Batman's rogues from Arkham, Batman, despite being sick, still goes out and track every single one of them down. After suffering from an intense punishment, he finally brings down every single enemy who has escaped, but this leaves him physically and emotionally drained. When he thinks it is finally time for him to rest, he is confronted by the mastermind Bane in his own home in one final confrontation. Despite being physically outmatched, Batman never gave up, and tried to fight the beast, until inevitably getting broken by his foe. Even a hero has his limits.

    2- Saves Gotham from a Nuclear Bomb (The Dark Knight Rises)

    When Talia Al Ghul sets off a WMD that would take out the entire city, Batman, despite having an option to leave the city with Selena Kyle, decides to take the bomb and let detonate over the sea, away from the city. Despite being stabbed, Batman drives The Bat while holding the Nuclear Bomb, risking his life to save Gotham. The bomb detonates over the sea, away from Gotham, but Batman is presumed dead. However, it is revealed that he did in fact survive and leads a normal life with Selena.

    1- Takes the Fall for Harvey Dent (The Dark Knight)

    Harvey Dent was once considered Gotham's true hero, until the Joker broke him and turned him into the murderous Two-Face. With Harvey now a murderer, the people of Gotham will lose hope. Batman didn't allow that to happen, and instead, allowed himself to be blamed for Harvey's crimes. Gordon says it himself: "He's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. He's a silent Guardian, a watchful protector, A Dark Knight!" Batman's selfless sacrifice allowed the formation of the Dent Act, which enabled a period of peace in Gotham that lasted for almost a decade.

    Agree? Disagree? What do you consider to be Batman's most heroic moments?

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    MuyJingo

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    Typo on persona at the start.

    Nice post though!

    I'm not sure what I would include for top 10 moments. Knightfall was deifnitly one that came to mind due to his drive not being broken, despite his body being so.

    Definitely disagree with your #1 point though. But then, I don't think the Batman in those movies is really heroic at all, since he has no problem with murder. I also don't think taking the fall for Harvey Dent is a heroic thing. Batman is feared by criminals, but not by good people...this changed that. The Dent Act also, from what I remember, basically turned Gotham into a police state. Not sure that's great either.

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    ULTRAstarkiller

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    Nice list

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    Anjales_II

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    @muyjingo: oops got it fixed thx

    From what I understand from your post, you don't believe Batman taking the fall for Harvey was the right choice. You see, if the people of Gotham discovered that their Knight in shinning armor ended up becoming a crazy two-faced killer who attempted to kill a child, they'll lose all hope, there will be chaos, things will be worse and the Joker would have won. Batman wants the people to feel safe, so he made it seem like Harvey Dent died a hero and took the blame himself before disappearing into the night. We can argue about this version of the character all day, but the reason this moment made the list is because Batman was willing to make the people hate him in order to make them feel safe. The fact that he preferred the safety of the people over his own (he let himself be hunted by the police) is what makes him a hero. Also, in nowhere did it ever seem like the people were oppressed or uncomfortable under the Dent Act, they seemed pretty happy and living in peace.

    Nevertheless, what moment would you have put as #1?

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    MuyJingo

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    @anjales: So, I have a bias from the start with the Nolan Batman. I think he is barely Batman, perhaps in name only. He has killed several times, and I think it's a stretch to call him heroic.

    Now, as for your argument that if people found out that Harvey had been corrupted they would lose all hope and chaos would ensure...I think that is nonsense. In the comics, the people of Gotham have faced far, far worse, and they are shown to be strong. Batman is a sign of hope to these people.

    Why in the world couldn't that work in the movie? I think people would realize that Batman was responsible for stopping the joker, and also for stopping a corrupted Harvey Dent and saving a small child.

    He took an easy way out, that really doesn't make much sense at all.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: Harvey was the hope for the people in that movie. He was like a new batman, Gotham no longer needed batman. Had they found out Harvey was evil, everything would've gone to hell. No one would believe Gotham had any chance if the best person there was a criminal. People already didn't like Batman at that point of the movie since joker was killing because of him.

    Harvey was the sign of hope, not Batman.

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    deactivated-5fbfd5d291164

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    5 wins.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: Harvey was the hope for the people in that movie. He was like a new batman, Gotham no longer needed batman. Had they found out Harvey was evil, everything would've gone to hell. No one would believe Gotham had any chance if the best person there was a criminal. People already didn't like Batman at that point of the movie since joker was killing because of him.

    Harvey was the sign of hope, not Batman.

    That doesn't contradict anything I said.

    My point was that Batman would have served the people better not by making a criminal into a hero, but by fighting for justice no matter what, and earning the peoples trust the hard way. Not lying to them. Eventually they would have come to trust him.

    People didn't trust him at first in the comics either.

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    @muyjingo: you said batman is their sign of hope, he wasn't. They wouldn't have to come to trust him. He caused the joker to kill many people. Once they realized dent was a criminal the city would fall apart. He was their last hope, their white night as they say in the movie. By lying he was able to end most crime in Gotham until bane returned. He didn't care about the peoples trust. The joker said it perfectly in the interrogation scene. They will like batman while he cleans up the streets but the second he does something wrong ( letting the joker kill those people) they will turn on him. He never had their full trust.

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    MuyJingo

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    #10  Edited By MuyJingo

    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: you said batman is their sign of hope, he wasn't. They wouldn't have to come to trust him. He caused the joker to kill many people. Once they realized dent was a criminal the city would fall apart. He was their last hope, their white night as they say in the movie. By lying he was able to end most crime in Gotham until bane returned. He didn't care about the peoples trust. The joker said it perfectly in the interrogation scene. They will like batman while he cleans up the streets but the second he does something wrong ( letting the joker kill those people) they will turn on him. He never had their full trust.

    What makes you think they would not have come to trust him? They trusted him in the final movie, even building a statue of him. They were able to trust him eventually because he proved himself, and that would have happened a lot quicker and easier if he hadn't needlessly taken the blame for what Harvey did.

    He ended crime at the expense of a city being a police state, which is in itself nonsense because batman didn't save Gotham, the Dent act did. If Batman had not lied, the Dent act would have still passed, it would have just been named something else.

    I think your reading too much into what the movie was trying to get the audience to believe, which doesn't jibe with what likely would have happened.

    Remember at the start of TDK? Thug looks out the window and sees the bat symbol and doesn't want to do whatever he was going to do? Why wouldn't that work in reverse? Batman may not have been a total sign of hope at that stage in his career, but he was on his way to becoming one. Before he lied, murdered, and quit because he was depressed over a fling.

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    the_tree

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    #11  Edited By the_tree

    Ace is a girl? Oh, yeah, not the dog.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: they never trusted him until he died for them. Joker said it best

    What you're saying about the sent act would be a good argument could be a good argument if it wasn't directly contradicted by the movie. They specifically said that that would not happen, and that all their work would go to waste. So yeah, what you're saying there wasn't going to happen because it said so in the movie.

    They already hated batman in TDK once the joker began killing because of him. Not exactly on his way to being trusted.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: he also didn't really want to be batman anymore anyway and was depressed at this point.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: they never trusted him until he died for them. Joker said it best

    What you're saying about the sent act would be a good argument could be a good argument if it wasn't directly contradicted by the movie. They specifically said that that would not happen, and that all their work would go to waste. So yeah, what you're saying there wasn't going to happen because it said so in the movie.

    They already hated batman in TDK once the joker began killing because of him. Not exactly on his way to being trusted.

    You're not listening to what I'm saying, and just keep quoting the movie.

    Just because a character says something in the movie, doesn't make it so. That fictional character doesn't know the future of their universe any more than we do ours.

    Yes, Batman was in a grey area with being trusted. I'm saying he would have been trusted eventually, like he was in the last movie. To repeat myself, Batman may not have been a total sign of hope at that stage in his career, but he was on his way to becoming one. Before he lied, murdered, and quit because he was depressed over a fling.

    Remember the start of Batman's career in the comics? He wasn't trusted or liked even by the majority, but he eventually proved himself. He didn't even try to do that in the Nolan films, for some reason convincing himself that it was better to be a scapegoat than a symbol of hope. Which is idiotic.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: he also didn't really want to be batman anymore anyway and was depressed at this point.

    Which is one of the many, many reasons that incarnation was a Batman in name only to me.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    @muyjingo: it was a grounded batman on purpose. So did you start to feel odd when Bruce didn't want to be batman anymore during knightfall after bane broke his back?

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: it was a grounded batman on purpose. So did you start to feel odd when Bruce didn't want to be batman anymore during knightfall after bane broke his back?

    It could have been a grounded batman without betraying the character.

    Knightfall was a completely different situation. He had faced a threat that he couldn't handle, at a point when he thought he was somewhat untouchable. And what did he do? He realized he was needed, and stepped up.

    Quitting being Batman because of a fling is entirely different, and entirely out of character.

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    SilverPool

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    Solid list. I don't think that him saving the cat was really this great act of heroism though...

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    @muyjingo: It didn't betray the character. Batman lies all the time and doesn't give a crap what people think of him.

    That's the same thing this batman did but even better. He had saved everyone, quit because he did his job and wasn't needed anymore, stepped up when he was needed and saved everyone again.

    He didn't do it because or a fling. I'm also not sure what you mean by fling. Rachel? The dent act removed most criminals and there was literally no reason for batman anymore. His body was also broken as it says in TDKR.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324: Wow, you're really invested in this version of the character huh.

    You've ignored my points above. Please address them instead of just repeating your points, else the conversation can't progress.

    I consider the Nolan incarnation to betray the character because it takes away all the defining traits of the character. It removes his intellect, his no killing rule, his detective skills, his martial arts skills etc. It's a rich guy in a bat costume using technology to fight crime. That may be Batman to you, but it isn't to me.

    Batman "doesn't lie all the time". He may as part of an investigation or something, but to say he lies all the time the way he did in the movie is false. I don't think there is a single example in the comics of him lying to that extent.

    I wasn't saying batman lied because of a fling, but he quit because his fling died. Yes, Rachel.

    His body wasn't so broken that it couldn't be repaired, as seen in TDKR.

    I maintain the dent act would have happened regardless, despite what move characters say. Having Batman as a scapegoat or Harvey as a scapegoat didn't matter, either would have been a suitable catalyst for ushering in the police state law. His taking the blame allowed Harvey to be remembered in a positive light and have the law named after him, it doesn't mean that action was responsible for the law being enacted, which is what you seem to think is the case.

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    @muyjingo: it didn't remove any of that except killing actually. Watch batman begins again. Perhaps you should speed up your quest to read every batman comic if you think batman doesn't lie. Him lying is not betraying that character. It was not so much of a lie as a sacrifice actually

    Rachel wasn't a fling and there were other times in different media where he was going to quit as well.

    There was no reason for him to fix his body since BATMAN WASNT NEEDED. Why don't you get that?

    You can maintain that but the movie says you're wrong. Its not what I think to be the case. it's what the movie said.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: it didn't remove any of that except killing actually. Watch batman begins again. Perhaps you should speed up your quest to read every batman comic if you think batman doesn't lie. Him lying is not betraying that character. It was not so much of a lie as a sacrifice actually

    Rachel wasn't a fling and there were other times in different media where he was going to quit as well.

    There was no reason for him to fix his body since BATMAN WASNT NEEDED. Why don't you get that?

    You can maintain that but the movie says you're wrong. Its not what I think to be the case. it's what the movie said.

    Are you deliberately just ignoring what I'm saying? I've clarified myself a few times now. I never said that it was his lying that was betraying the character. Stop arguing against men made of straw.

    I said he has never lied in a similar way, or to the extent he did in the movie. I've read enough Batman to know this. If you disagree, then cite an example. Note, just to clarify yet again since you seem to need it: I'm not saying he doesn't lie, I'm saying he doesn't lie in the way or to the extent he did in the movie.

    Rachel was a fling. They were together for less than a month.

    Just because a character in a movie says something, doesn't make it true. I don't know why that's so hard for you to grasp. Just think about it for a second, and you should get it.

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    @muyjingo: It was true. It was put in the movie for a reason. Their words overpower your thoughts. Both batman and Gordon said it.

    Yeah someone you've loved since you were ten is a fling.

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    r2datu

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    @muyjingo said:

    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: it didn't remove any of that except killing actually. Watch batman begins again. Perhaps you should speed up your quest to read every batman comic if you think batman doesn't lie. Him lying is not betraying that character. It was not so much of a lie as a sacrifice actually

    Rachel wasn't a fling and there were other times in different media where he was going to quit as well.

    There was no reason for him to fix his body since BATMAN WASNT NEEDED. Why don't you get that?

    You can maintain that but the movie says you're wrong. Its not what I think to be the case. it's what the movie said.

    Are you deliberately just ignoring what I'm saying? I've clarified myself a few times now. I never said that it was his lying that was betraying the character. Stop arguing against men made of straw.

    I said he has never lied in a similar way, or to the extent he did in the movie. I've read enough Batman to know this. If you disagree, then cite an example. Note, just to clarify yet again since you seem to need it: I'm not saying he doesn't lie, I'm saying he doesn't lie in the way or to the extent he did in the movie.

    Rachel was a fling. They were together for less than a month.

    Just because a character in a movie says something, doesn't make it true. I don't know why that's so hard for you to grasp. Just think about it for a second, and you should get it.

    As someone who isn't the biggest fan of Nolan's interpretation, to call their relationship a "fling" isn't particularly accurate. They had known each other since childhood and while I agree that it was silly for that being one of the primary factors in Batman's retirement, it's deliberately facetious to call it a fling. Even if it wasn't a romantic attachment, to have a close family friend known since early childhood die as a direct result of your actions is some pretty heavy emotional baggage. Comic Batman knew Jason Todd for a far shorter time than he did Rachel and that was still emotionally devastating.

    It was silly that he even retired, but let's not be deliberately glib here.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: It was true. It was put in the movie for a reason. Their words overpower your thoughts. Both batman and Gordon said it.

    Yeah someone you've loved since you were ten is a fling.

    No, it isn't true. Characters are often wrong in movies. Do you really take everything every character says in a movie as true? That's troubling...not to mention unusual.

    It doesn't matter how long he loved her, it matters how long he was with her.

    Still waiting for an example of Batman lying to the extent he did in the movie...

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    @muyjingo: But this wasn't so one off statement. It was a fact supported by the entire movie. The whole movie was setting up harvey to be this great person, the white knight. everything he did was done to accent how big his fall was. But if you want to call them all liars and think you know more about it than those in the movie and those who wrote the movie, OK.

    It wasnt at all a fling.

    Lying to what extent? It was a sacrifice. But he lies to his bat family all the time. Read death of the family and his other new 52 stuff. He lies to keep them safe, like he did for gotham here.

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    MuyJingo

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    @r2datu said:

    As someone who isn't the biggest fan of Nolan's interpretation, to call their relationship a "fling" isn't particularly accurate. They had known each other since childhood and while I agree that it was silly for that being one of the primary factors in Batman's retirement, it's deliberately facetious to call it a fling. Even if it wasn't a romantic attachment, to have a close family friend known since early childhood die as a direct result of your actions is some pretty heavy emotional baggage. Comic Batman knew Jason Todd for a far shorter time than he did Rachel and that was still emotionally devastating.

    It was silly that he even retired, but let's not be deliberately glib here.

    I disagree. I don't think it is facetious at all.

    A fling in this context, is a short lived relationship. It doesn't matter that he loved her for years unrequited. What matters is the amount of time they were together, which was so incredibly short, that I don't see how you can argue that it was not a fling.

    One of the definitions from Merriam Webster Online is this: a casual or brief love affair.

    That is exactly how I am using the word, and that is exactly what his relationship with Rachel was.

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    r2datu

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    @muyjingo said:

    @r2datu said:

    As someone who isn't the biggest fan of Nolan's interpretation, to call their relationship a "fling" isn't particularly accurate. They had known each other since childhood and while I agree that it was silly for that being one of the primary factors in Batman's retirement, it's deliberately facetious to call it a fling. Even if it wasn't a romantic attachment, to have a close family friend known since early childhood die as a direct result of your actions is some pretty heavy emotional baggage. Comic Batman knew Jason Todd for a far shorter time than he did Rachel and that was still emotionally devastating.

    It was silly that he even retired, but let's not be deliberately glib here.

    I disagree. I don't think it is facetious at all.

    A fling in this context, is a short lived relationship. It doesn't matter that he loved her for years unrequited. What matters is the amount of time they were together, which was so incredibly short, that I don't see how you can argue that it was not a fling.

    One of the definitions from Merriam Webster Online is this: a casual or brief love affair.

    That is exactly how I am using the word, and that is exactly what his relationship with Rachel was.

    Again, the crux of their relationship was that they had known each other since they were six years old. They never were even together if I recall correctly. Even if there was no romantic attachment, a life long friend known since early childhood being murdered as a result of one's own actions is emotionally devastating and certainly different from a "fling" being murdered (ie a woman/man one has known and been romantically entangled with for a short period of time). Let's not discredit our own arguments with glibness.

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    MuyJingo

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    @jayc1324 said:

    @muyjingo: But this wasn't so one off statement. It was a fact supported by the entire movie. The whole movie was setting up harvey to be this great person, the white knight. everything he did was done to accent how big his fall was. But if you want to call them all liars and think you know more about it than those in the movie and those who wrote the movie, OK.

    It wasnt at all a fling.

    Lying to what extent? It was a sacrifice. But he lies to his bat family all the time. Read death of the family and his other new 52 stuff. He lies to keep them safe, like he did for gotham here.

    You can see my reply above to to r2datu as to why it was a fling. Dictionary says you're wrong.

    You said Batman lies all the time, something I didn't disagree with, although "all the time" is certainly hyperbolic.

    I said Batman has never lied in the way he did in the movie, by letting people thing a murdered was a savior and letting people think Batman was a murderer. That seems entirely out of character. Can you give any example from the comics where he has done anything similar?

    Note, we already disagree on the merits of his actions, I'm just asking you to support your claim that him lying in such a way is par for the course. You can name any issue where something similar has happened..

    As for you're tenancy to simply believe whatever words the writers put into the mouths of their characters, is that your sole point to back up your argument? I'm maintaining the Dent Act would have happened regardless of who took the blame, Dent or Batman.

    Do you have any argument that says otherwise, aside from "they said so in the movie!"?

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    MuyJingo

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    @r2datu said:

    Again, the crux of their relationship was that they had known each other since they were six years old. They never were even together if I recall correctly. Even if there was no romantic attachment, a life long friend known since early childhood being murdered as a result of one's own actions is emotionally devastating and certainly different from a "fling" being murdered (ie a woman/man one has known and been romantically entangled with for a short period of time). Let's not discredit our own arguments with glibness.

    Let's not be patronizing while trying to have a civil debate, shall we?

    I understand they had been friends since childhood, but look at the facts. Bruce was away for...how long in the movie I forget, but around 10 years, yes? He didn't bother to let Rachel know he was OK in that time. I can't imagine doing that to a close friend. To me, that indicates their friendship was not that close. Meaning the romantic aspect of their relationship was far more significant to the events that transpired.

    That aside, she wasn't murdered due to Bruce's actions. She was targeted because of Dent, and died due to the Joker.

    To me, it doesn't matter that they had known each other since they were children. What matters to me, is the short amount of time they mutually loved each other. Based on the length of that alone, it was a fling. Note: I am not saying their entire relationship was a fling, but rather their fling was a subset of their greater relationship.

    I may be wrong, but I was under the impression Bruce became a hermit not solely because she died, but because he loved her and she died.

    So, as a question to better understand your view, do you think if there had been no love between them, but the friendship was the same and she died in the same way, Bruce would have acted in the same way?

    I don't think so, and I think their fling, or, since you have a problem with that word, their brief love affair was the variable here. As such, I think it's entirely appropriate to place blame on their brief love affair being a primary factor in Batman's retirement.

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    Black_Arrow

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    good list I would change a thing or two.

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    RustyRoy

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    #32  Edited By RustyRoy
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    deathstroke52

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    #33  Edited By deathstroke52

    Number 3 is my favorite and bump

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    Anjales_II

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    @muyjingo: Not to intrude, but from what I could understand from your posts, basically your problem with TDK is the fact that Batman killed, his sacrifice for Dent didn't really do anything substantial except that it was an uncharacteristic lie and his reasoning for retiring wasn't convincing for you, right? Now I won't try to convince you that Nolan's Batman was overall heroic or a good interpretation, that's a discussion for a different time. For now, I'll just try to argue for his fall for Harvey.

    First of all it was established during the movie that Harvey was Gotham's "true hero", having put behind bars half the criminals in gotham and he did it without wearing a mask. It was well established that the people loved him. And It was the fact that he wore a mask that made the people hate Batman during the joker killings. the people considered that things were worse than ever and wanted Batman to surrender himself to stop the Joker's killings. During the press conference, Bruce was actually going to surrender himself and reveal his own identity before Harvey announced himself as the Batman, and instead he let Harvey take the fall (see the irony?), and they used this opportunity to catch the joker. After the car chase scene and the Joker's capture, Harvey was considered Gotham greatest hero, as it is stated by the people.

    As far as the people and the cops are concerned, it was Harvey's surrender that brought out the Joker and enabled Batman and the police to capture him, and therefore they have him to thank for ending the murders. Then, he becomes the murderer Two-Face. As far as Batman and Gordon were concerned, they couldn't let the people know that, because there will be chaos. That was the philosophy the Joker was going by. That's why he turned Harvey because he believed that deep down people are cruel, and once they lose their false idol, once "the plan" changes, their true nature will be shown and the city will be plunged in despair and crime. It was a theory that was proven true by Bane, when he revealed Harvey's crimes via Gordon's letter (let's suspend our disbelief for minute and say an entire city believed the claims of a madman in a mask about their hero even though it could have been a lie, though it really wasn't), and when that happened people just started stealing from each other and the whole city went nuts, not just because of the escaped criminals, it was shown that regular people either started stealing or hid cowered in their homes. This is what Batman wanted to prevent when he took the fall for Harvey,he wanted to save the city from itself. It seemed like, deep down, though Batman believed that people are capable of good, they needed a symbol, an idol to follow in order to do so, or else, if left unchecked, there will be chaos. Batman's trust issues are further explored in Rises. He had a machine that can produce clean energy for everyone, basically "save the world", but when he discovered that the machine could be turned into a bomb, he put a end to the whole project, fearing someone would use it to hurt people.

    Now, going back the the fall, could he have exposed Harvey and tried to earn the city's trust the hard way? He could have but do you think it would have worked? Picture this. The city's proud and respected savior turned out to be a horrible murderer, so everything they thought to be true, all their hopes, were a lie, they should have never trust Harvey, and their true hero is a guy in a mask, who's the reason why a clown was murdering people left and right? How can you expect the people to live with that? Things were already hard when Harvey was DA and Batman was active, there was still corruption and trouble. You can't really compare comics with a grounded movie like this in this context. After Harvey became Two Face things changed, and will become worse, there's no gutsy DA to prosecute the bad guys despite Batman's efforts. No matter how hard Batman tried, the city wasn't going to recover from this unless they took action themselves. Letting Batman clean the streets isn't going to cut it anymore, they needed something bigger. Enter the Dent Act. By using Dent's presumed heroic death as a catapult, and focusing their anger towards Batman, it was enough motivation to reshape the city. But having Dent a villain and a masked vigilante running around the city is enough motivation for the formation of the Dent Act. Would the Act have been placed in any case? I don't think so, the Act was formed as an honor to Dent, as a refusal to what Batman is, and as a sign that the people are fed up with the freaks taking over their streets.

    Within the context of the movie, if there was a Dent Act when the Waynes were murdered, Bruce wouldn't have become Batman. If Dent was exposed as Two Face, Fear would have overtaken Hope, and that would have lead to chaos. By Batman taking the fall, hope overtook fear, and became motivation for the establishment of peace.

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    MuyJingo

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    #35  Edited By MuyJingo

    @anjales: Indeed, your first paragraph succinctly sums up my problems with that interpretation. All that is really missing is the killing, lack of intellect and lack of a detective aspect to the character.

    I understand what the movie was trying to do with it's characters and the story it was trying to tell. This may work well within the movie, and especially when you have characters saying exposition to make it work.

    That's why he turned Harvey because he believed that deep down people are cruel, and once they lose their false idol, once "the plan" changes, their true nature will be shown and the city will be plunged in despair and crime

    And yet, Batman would have been able to disprove this just by being Batman. He could be the idol that people look up to, as we know he doesn't compromise his ideals (well this Batman does..). Batman could show the people that there is still reason to hope etc. Having him stop the Joker, as public as it was, should have been enough to have people start trusting him. TV screens were not shown at the time he was fighting Joker in the skyscraper, but you can bet their were camera on it, capturing him leaving the Joker hanging upside down.

    He then raced off to kill Harvey, and ended up becoming the scapegoat for his crimes. Why? So that Harvey can live on as a beacon of hope? Well, I just stated why I don't think that is a good reason - Batman would have become a beacon of hope. He was never given a chance as he let people think he was a murderer instantly. He wasn't needed to usher in the Dent act, that was a response to the Joker not Batmans being a scapegoat.

    Now, going back the the fall, could he have exposed Harvey and tried to earn the city's trust the hard way? He could have but do you think it would have worked? Picture this. The city's proud and respected savior turned out to be a horrible murderer, so everything they thought to be true, all their hopes, were a lie, they should have never trust Harvey, and their true hero is a guy in a mask, who's the reason why a clown was murdering people left and right? How can you expect the people to live with that?

    It doesn't matter that the Joker says he is murdering because of Batman. People die because of all sorts of illegitimate reasons. All that matters is Joker is a maniac and needs to be stopped. And yes, they should trust the guy in the mask, who has a record by now of helping and saving people, and just publicly captured Joker.

    You can't really compare comics with a grounded movie like this in this context. After Harvey became Two Face things changed, and will become worse, there's no gutsy DA to prosecute the bad guys despite Batman's efforts. No matter how hard Batman tried, the city wasn't going to recover from this unless they took action themselves. Letting Batman clean the streets isn't going to cut it anymore, they needed something bigger.

    There are Batman comics just as grounded as these movies supposedly are.

    So you're saying there were no other decent DAs? I don't think that is true. Rachel showed a similar level of gumption to Harvey, I think where there were 2 there would be others.

    Enter the Dent Act. By using Dent's presumed heroic death as a catapult, and focusing their anger towards Batman, it was enough motivation to reshape the city.

    So you think the people of Gotham are ignoring the Joker, and suddenly turning on Batman because he killed Harvey? I think the Dent act would have happened as a consequence of Joker, regardless of Batman's actions here.

    Would the Act have been placed in any case? I don't think so, the Act was formed as an honor to Dent, as a refusal to what Batman is, and as a sign that the people are fed up with the freaks taking over their streets.

    It's name was an honor to Dent. It most certainly would have been enacted regardless.

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    Anjales_II

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    @black_arrow: Thx. What would you change?

    @muyjingo: I appreciate the extended responses and you do make some strong points. However, it seems you have some serious problems with that version and I won't go far in trying to convince you otherwise, but that's not my intention here in this thread. I am not trying to convince you to like this version, all im trying to do is justify its placement on the list. When it comes to Batman's action, when it pertains to this list, I am evaluating it within the context of the movie, weather not the context is good or bad is irrelevant. Within the context of the movie, Batman's willingness to sacrifice himself to give Gotham is heroic. Weather or not the Dent Act would have happened regardless doesn't really matter, as we'll never really know, but according to the movie, Batman's actions led to the Dent Act which brought peace to Gotham, and that's why it's on this list. I'm not evaluating it on what it could/should have been, i'm simply evaluating it for what it was.

    But tell me, I am interested, what would you consider to be Batman's top heroic moment, in any medium?

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    MuyJingo

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    @anjales: Thanks. I understand that you are evaluating his actions in the context of the movie, and I still don't see them as heroic. Only unnecessary. In Begins and Rises I think he has heroic moments, even some in TDK. Choosing to be a scapegoat supposedly for the greater good is not among them.

    As for what I would consider to be Batman's top heroic moments, I honestly don't know. There are so very very many. The top 3 that stick out to me are saving the baby at the end of No Man's Land, rebuilding himself after Knightfall, and refraining from killing Joker in Hush.

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