Great list @k4tzm4n. I couldn't have come up with a better one or think of any fights to add to the list.

Very nice list! Some other nice mentions would be the fights against the white martians and Heretic.

Sure, Superman's holding back and Batman had major prep and assistance, but we all know Superman could and should destroy Batman if he really wanted to, so let's let Bruce enjoy this one, yeah?

That's one interpretation...

Or it's the factually correct interpretation of how the fight would almost always go down.

@lvenger: Nope. The evidence to support that interpretation just as well also supports other, equally valid interpretations.

Unless there is something you can show from Miller's comics that supports the assertion that Superman is holding back?

We've seen your 'equally valid interpretations' of those fights before and they're greatly lacking in plausibility. Superman experts like myself as well as Batman experts like Saren have debunked your arguments before.

@lvenger: No idea what you're talking about. It's great that you call yourself and consider someone else an expert.

You or Saren certainly haven't debunked anything. If you really insist that's true, then link to where it happened.

Or, as asked, you could provide the evidence that supports what is according to you, the one extant correct factual interpretation.

@muyjingo: If you continue to refuse to see the error of your ways, I fail to see why I should continue proving you wrong when all I'm doing is talking to a brick wall. You never have a shred of credibility, of sound reasoning nor of consistent evidence to come close to proving any sort of conclusion that Batman, regardless of how much prep time he has, stands any chance against Superman who can end the fight in one second flat if he wanted to.

And other people on here are the ones who call me a Superman expert, not me. I earnt that reputation fair and square by proving I know what I'm talking about. The same cannot be said for you on your overrated Batman knowledge though.

@lvenger: That's cute. All you've done so far is be a dick.

I stated the interpretation k4tzm4n has is not the only correct one. You disagreed. I asked, reasonably and civilly for evidence to support your view. Which, all you've been able to do is find excuses not to provide.

Then there is the arrogance. You haven't debunked anything nor are you an expert, just an opinionated fan. There is no "error of my ways", just a well reasoned, well supported opinion that you happened to disagree with.

The point you seemed to be missing and the foundation of my argument is that the Superman seen in Miller's comics is not the same as the Pre52 Superman, the New 52 Superman or the Kingdom Come Superman. These stories stand on their own. In these stories, we see nothing to indicate that Superman is holding back. If people choose to assume that this Superman is an aged version of the Pre52 Superman, then that's fine. It isn't however the only correct interpretation, and it is disingenuous to say that it is.

Can you show anything from Miller's comics indicating Superman is holding back?

@muyjingo: Not continuing this conversation now you've resorted to childish name calling as befits your nature. Good day.

@lvenger: That's absolutely fine. All you've done so far is lie and namecall.

Unlike some, I don't resort to personal attacks as a first measure. It took you attacking me several times to illicit that response, specifically by:

• Lying and claiming to have debunked an opinion you disagree with
• Attacking my credibility
• Comparing talking to me to talking to a brick wall, when I have answered your every response directly with you failing to do the same
• Implied I don't know what I'm talking about, again simply because you disagree

It's a shame you have to resort to personal attacks instead of considering and responding to the argument being made. It's clear from your behaviour a civil discussion is impossible. I can't imagine being so emotionally invested in a character that I would become defensive and blind myself to considering alternating interpretations and opinions on that character. Sad. Batman with prep, Kryptonite and help from Green Arrow stands no chance against an already weak Superman made weaker by a nuclear bomb? OK.

I guess you can't provide anything showing Superman to be holding back in Miller's comics. Funny there's no facts to support "the factually correct interpretation of how the fight would almost always go down". I'm sure you're right though. Lol.

Need to get round to picking up Under the Red Hood

@batcat91: Is it not? People say, "I prefer Batman because he's more courageous. He faces down bullets without the benefit of being bulletproof. He relies on his intellect and his fighting skills and charisma/intimidation," while Luthor's rhetoric, his claims--not his character--are, "I hate Superman because humanity relies on him like a crutch instead of looking to themselves for answers." Doesn't sound so dissimilar to me.

Great article, even for those of us who aren't fans.

@neghead:

I failed to see the connection of Lex’s alien hate with why people like Batman but thanks for clarifying it for me on why you feel that’s the case.

Regardless you said all the reasons that anyone likes batman is identical to Lex’s belief which is without a doubt inaccurate. There are several reasons why someone likes Batman. Everyone is different. I wouldn’t have had a problem with what you said if you didn’t lump everyone together with that idea.

A popular one is that at a young age despite experiencing an overwhelming, traumatic tragedy he makes a vow, then and there to make sure no one else has to experience that pain. Most people would be overcome by this tragedy, wallow in pity or become a victim of their grief. Instead Bruce uses that pain to become a force for good. Bruce is basically Gotham royalty and could indulge in any hedonistic, selfish action he desires but instead he risks his mind, body and soul for all the people of Gotham. That despite the impossibility of his mission especially with a city as dark, sinister and corrupt as Gotham he will never give up. That’s my reason why I love Batman as a character and I find it awe-inspiring.

And you know people might just prefer street level, finesse characters over cosmic, powerhouse characters.

Broad generalizations can create an unreliable perception of the fandom as a whole which doesn’t do these forums any good but in life as well. Also are you implying that all batfans are xenophobes or hate Superman. The fans with the “Batman makes everyone his b####” mentality make up a very small, but very loud and obnoxious minority of the fandom. Yeah they're annoying, same could be said of any overzealous fan and the best thing to do is just ignore them.

I like the gif by the way

Nice Art.

Man, great list ypu made here. You have almost every awesome battle covered, the only one that you've kinda missed is the fight with the Heretic. It was an amazing battle on it;s own.

@batcat91: Thx. My Klingon Mr. Potatohead gave it to me for Christmas. Or maybe my wife gave me the Potatohead for Christmas. I can't fudging remember...

@braynehurricane said:

Oh. My bad.

@batcat91: Dude these fights were AWESOME!!! What issues can I find them in?

Actually, if you review their respective power sets, even if we want to believe the Miller verse version is a watered down one, he doesn't really need to "prove" anything as it's already proven. Superman can, in fact, "end" Batman at will grace of faster than light speed coupled with strength that can pulverize a peak human, even a low level meta, easily despite the armor and send Bruce into orbit before the kryptonite would have a chance to effect. Writer induced stupidity ofttimes supports plot when the "show must go on".

With prep and kryptonite, Batman can have a working plan to forgo the inevitable. Those two elements do indeed level the playing field some and under certain conditions, Batman can win. Part of that prep, however, centers around him counting on Clark not to outright obliterate. He counts on Clark's basic moral fiber. And that is made obvious through dialogue.

I agree that this "version" of Superman may not be the planet busting powerhouse version portrayed in regular DC continuity. That said, again, due to their respective power sets, there is a limit. Both the verbal exchange and the fact Clark simply didn't blitz in and toss Bruce into orbit suggest he was, indeed, holding back. He punched him hard enough to dissuade, break ribs, and hopefully take him out of the fight. Pressing his point and his advantage. But he was not swinging to outright obliterate his oldest friend.

Their past relationship and the fact Clark still had a shred of decency preventing him from being a stone cold killer at the outset go a long way to support that as fact - he was holding back. And Bruce was banking on that ... all part of his genius.

There are differences of opinion sure ... but the more logical and rational opinions, even with regards "comics", stand obvious above the rest. In that regard, yours is overshadowed. So, have at your opinion herein, but don't be too alarmed when the community at large don't necessarily agree or adhere. Obvious is obvious after all.

If we accept the Miller universe is a watered down universe, then we have to use the feats in the Miller books to gauge the power levels of the characters featured within. What feats in the Miller books support a Superman who can travel at FTL speed? What from those books supports that the armor is essentially useless? As I recall the fight, it took a few punches just to get part of it to fall off. It's impossible to tell (keeping in mind he was weakened from a nuke) how much of his strength he is using.

With prep and kryptonite, Batman can have a working plan to forgo the inevitable. Those two elements do indeed level the playing field some and under certain conditions, Batman can win. Part of that prep, however, centers around him counting on Clark not to outright obliterate. He counts on Clark's basic moral fiber. And that is made obvious through dialogue.

I agree that's true the majority of the time. I also think it depends on how the writer portrays Superman's various weaknesses. Sometimes it just slows him down a bit, other times it completely incapacitates him. The way it is portrayed in TDKR is closer to the latter.

I agree that this "version" of Superman may not be the planet busting powerhouse version portrayed in regular DC continuity. That said, again, due to their respective power sets, there is a limit. Both the verbal exchange and the fact Clark simply didn't blitz in and toss Bruce into orbit suggest he was, indeed, holding back. He punched him hard enough to dissuade, break ribs, and hopefully take him out of the fight. Pressing his point and his advantage. But he was not swinging to outright obliterate his oldest friend.

Their past relationship and the fact Clark still had a shred of decency preventing him from being a stone cold killer at the outset go a long way to support that as fact - he was holding back. And Bruce was banking on that ... all part of his genius.

And I think that is a very well supported interpretation. My only point is that it isn't the *only* correct interpretation. Keep in mind in his weakened state, he may not have been able to blitz in and toss Bruce into orbit. He seemed to be having trouble with the armor and why would he? He could easily dismantle the armor without hurting Bruce if he was holding back. What would his motivation be to join in fisticuffs and give Bruce, who he is familiar with, a chance to actually hurt him?

There are differences of opinion sure ... but the more logical and rational opinions, even with regards "comics", stand obvious above the rest. In that regard, yours is overshadowed. So, have at your opinion herein, but don't be too alarmed when the community at large don't necessarily agree or adhere. Obvious is obvious after all.

Well now, no. I don't mind when a vocal minority disagrees, as that's hardly the same thing as a majority. Some people think it's obvious we never landed on the moon and that. Unfortunately, obvious has to be treated like a subjective term especially in areas as subjective as comics. Evidence is what matters here, and there is little evidence that Clark was holding back, just a whole lot of assumption.

haha yeah it is pretty epic. Well the first scans are from Batman Inc. #9 and #10. The actual rematch between Batman and the Heretic is Batman Inc. #12. The one with the augmentation suit is Batman and Robin #12 by Tomasi and Gleason. You can also pick up the trades for the complete story. If you plan on getting the books rather than the individual issues, feel free to ask the correct order with Batman Inc. since it's a bit confusing :)

@muyjingo: If I recall didn't you post a batman vs superman thread where people can debate on the merits of both characters? Do you think that you, lvenger and Super_Soldier XII can move this to that thread? I'd appreciate it if you can. I don't think these posts are appropriate for this specific thread

@batcat91: I commented on something in the article, which others responded to. Pretty sure it's relevant, but happy to move if others are willing to.

@muyjingo: brilliant...arguing a subjective opinion on a subjective opinion / interpretation of a fictional story on a fictitious character. Please continue I find this more interesting than the actual comics. And I can promise I am not being sarcastic or facetious. Your tenacity and veracity is equal to the Caped Crusader himself. If only I could be like this on real world issues. You make me feel like a nihilist.

@teddy_the_god_killer: I honestly don't know how to take your post if you're not being sarcastic. Could you clarify?

@muyjingo: read it as a compliment.

Doesn't seem to be a compliment so much as an incomprehensible ramble.

@muyjingo: I was obviously mistaken, how dumb am I. Pearls before swine!

And just so the English language does not confuse your lack of comprehension...that was an insult. But for the record you still are an entertaining little thing.

@teddy_the_god_killer: Pearls before swine indeed.

@dagmar_merrill: Ivenger or Lvenger? :-P

That battle was sick.

Great list,

out of interest, are the Aikido warrior and Jean Paul valley fights in the Knightfall volumes?

No Batman vs Kingpin? Come on, that was an once in a lifetime battle...... I was sure the windows on the Statue of Liberty were bigger on her crown....

Nice article, guess I should check a couple more Bat-battles out. I, to, liked his first fight with Deathstroke.

The fight with Superman is the greatest Batman fight of all time.

"Aikido Warrior" sounds like the name of a Japanese strong style wrestler. His threads don't kill that image in my bean. I'd make fun of Night-Scourge, but anything Paul Gulacy draws is hard to throw stones at.

Nice list. I'm gonner go read one of these and eat some donuts.

Awesome list

Nice list

1) Batman vs Jean Paul Valley

2) Batman vs Nobody

3) Batman vs Bane arkham war

yeah some good fights especially Bane's

THis is out of the blue but here are five questions to you guys plz answer them if you can

1) Are there any problems here?

2) If yes what are they?

3) Is there any requirement to enter this community?

4) Whats the most popular topixc to discuss?

5) Which community fits you the most?

Plz send to this email: comic2740@gmail.com

Great list.

@harlowc: That fight was actually one of my all-time favorite and a hidden gem to most Bat fans? Batman really got his ass kicked by Slade, easily too.