@jujutrain91: I usually do section by section quotes, but this will take too long. Instead I've copied and pasted your post and then responded within that. I have italicized and underlined your original text to make reading it a little bit easier.
First of all, this is not a discussion about who would win in a fight, so I didn’t put it in the battle forum because of that, I already know what I think would happen. Secondly, apologies for the massively long essay this will be.
Ok – first off, you kind of do ask the question, who would win in a fight, just not directly. You re-word it “this is what I think would happen – do you agree?” but it’s essentially the same question, just posed differently. Although, I’m not hating as these threads CAN be interesting and fuelled by thoughtful discussion. Also, essay’s don’t bother me. It’s my style too.
I realise this topic has been done to death, but I wanted to start it for a couple of reasons. I think it is going to be very relevant due to the upcoming movie, also I feel like I have a more sensible approach to the matter, instead of the typical responses that you get.
Yes it has been done to death. Also, everyone feels like they have the sensible approach to the matter. It’s like how every religious person think they’re right and then can’t imagine how other religions exist and why those people are so stupid. I’m not saying religion is stupid, just the way people view their opinion compared to others. But I digress…
Now, I know there are huge numbers of Batfanboys who blindly accept Batman always wins against anyone because he’s Batman. Then there are also a large number of people, especially on this site, who hate on Batman, and they may come up with various reasons for doing so, such as him not being interesting, etc, but I think most people would agree it’s really just a hipster approach, they want to hate on him because he’s insanely popular, probably the most popular hero currently.
Agreed.
If you belong to either category, please don’t bother joining in here, as I’d rather have some interesting discussions rather than have this thread devolve into argumentative nonsense. Sure, be a fanboy of Bats or Supes, just not the irritating kind who gets upset because someone diminishes the capabilities of their favourite fictional character.
Agreed.
Right, so I’ll lay my cards on the table. I’m a Batfan (gasp! shock! horror!). Please excuse me if you find this biased, I’ve tried to be sensible about it, and as I said I want to spark well-thought, interesting discussions.
I was shocked, kind of. Usually Batfanboys don’t use those terms. Although the obligatory missing of the “Batgod” wording should have tipped me off. If only I was a better detective. Also, kudos on admitting your fanboyism. It’s also my style.
So, who would win in a fight?
See! You said it RIGHT THERE! ;-P
Well, the whole question is pointless. I mean seriously, it would be like an ant trying to stop a nuclear bomb. Batman would get his ass handed to him by Superman. Superman could quite easily destroy Batman in a large number of ways in a nanosecond before Bruce even moved a muscle at the start of the fight. Sorry Batfans, but it’s true, although I’m sure most of you know that.
Agreed.
But, and it’s a big but, would this ever happen? Would they ever just have a straight up fist fight, for whatever reason? Is Bruce, one of the smartest men on Earth, going to just walk in to a fistfight with Superman, when even he knows he would lose? Of course not! Unless… Unless he thought he stood a chance. If Batman genuinely wanted to fight Superman, he would only do it on his own terms, when he knew he had some way to actually go toe to toe with Big Blue, otherwise he knows he would get destroyed!! Think about the Injustice story for a second, Batman has a weapon that will incapacitate Superman, but because he can’t get it, he doesn’t go and face Superman, because he knows he can’t do anything against him.
Agreed.
Now you may not think this is fair, why does Batman get his own terms, prep time, etc!!??. I’m not saying he does, I’ve already admitted in a straight fight Superman would destroy Bats. What I truly believe though, is that if Batman wanted to take down Superman, for whatever reason, he would have a plan to do so.
Agreed within the context provided.
So that is my take on the question, who would win in a fight. If they just had a random fight, Superman would kill Bruce instantly. But could Bruce take down the Boy Scout if he wanted to, I’m sure the World’s Greatest Detective would have a plan to do such a thing. But it wouldn’t be so much as a fight and more of a lead pipes everywhere, red solar panels covering the place, kryptonite in your face so that the Batman can kick you around kind of thing.
I’ll come back to this…
I also wanted to offer what I feel are very sensible rebuttals to the thread linked below, which seems to be the go to for Superman fans discussing Superman vs Batman.
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/citizenbane/blog/superman-vs-batman/79268/
Edit: I've spoilered it out, as apparently it's been done before, but I still feel my points are valid, so go ahead and read if you're interested.
Ok, this is where I’m going to start rebutting. Not all of it, but some of it.
The Dark Knight Returns
How on Earth is this advantage Kal-El, because Bruce seemingly dies in his arms? That is part of Bruce’s plan. Supes is basically human when Bruce “dies”, with kryptonite swirling around in his lungs. “You’re feeling it now aren’t you? What the rest of us live with every day, your own mortality.” Bruce dies literally at the point where Clark is at his mercy. At the point he dies he could have actually started kicking Clark around with some ease.
Yes Superman holds back during the fight, but so what? Of course he does. He’s Superman, that’s part of his character, he doesn’t want to hurt Bruce, and Bruce knows that and uses that fact. Note that Bruce also holds back by not permanently incapacitating Clark with a more deadly kryptonite arrow. “But I didn’t have to go easy on you. A different binding agent, a stronger mix”.
Also how can anyone complain about Bruce getting outside help? He is an old-aged human going up against a God. It only makes sense for someone as smart as him to use outside help.
At the end of the day, Clark learns his lesson, Bruce wanted him to realise what a joke he has become and “I wanted to remind you to stay out of my way”. Superman’s plan was to take Batman in to custody. Superman’s plan fails. Batman engages him in a fight, cripples him with kryptonite, but then fakes his death at this point when Superman is at his mercy, and then Clark decides to leave him alone when he realises Bruce is alive. Bruce’s plan succeeds. Sorry, but this has to be advantage Bruce.
I don’t entirely disagree with you here, however I think you’re underestimating how strong Superman was by the end of that fight (which technically doesn’t end; instead concluding with Superman carrying a seemingly dead Bruce away). I’ll give it to Batman as advantage, because of his control of the fight. However, it can’t be denied Batman had taken way more damage in that fight, from a severely weakened Superman (not including Frank Miller’s initial dumbing down and weakening of the character to begin with) who didn’t want to fight and was holding back an awful lot. Yes, Batman “wins” in the sense his plan is executed perfectly, but he never truly beat Superman In the sense of killing him or knocking him out. I also agree with the original poster’s comments that Batman’s own little speech isn’t proof of anything. Characters monologue A LOT in comics and no one attacks them during this time. This is another example of that. Had the fight continued, there’s nothing to guarantee Superman wouldn’t have fought back and ended it. The timely “heart attack” however prevented that (part of Batman’s plan IMHO to ensure the fight DIDN’T continue as he was all out of tricks). But anyway – that’s what I think, but I still admit, advantage Batman.
Tower of Babel
The argument on the thread against this I find ridiculous. Ra’s has more resources than Batman and Batman’s a member of the league so under more scrutiny. Seriously?? It’s Batman’s plan!! I mean seriously. You think he came up with a plan, a plan that Clark wants Bruce to have, bearing in mind this is basically the most important plan Bruce will ever come up with to stop someone who could be the most dangerous being ever on Earth, and you honestly think he came up with a plan that probably didn’t have a very good chance of succeeding? I mean honestly I can’t even fathom that reasoning at all. If anything, I think Batman is more likely to pull off this plan than Ra’s, it fails for Ra’s, whereas Bruce would have used it to immobilise Superman and then would have caged Superman (while he tried to find a way to bring Clark back to his sense, since he would have only used this on a rogue Superman). I’m not giving advantage to Bruce on this, as he didn’t execute the plan, I’m just saying I definitely think he would have been able to pull this off.
My biggest argument against this involves 2 things. 1 – it wasn’t executed by Batman (as you rightly stated). And 2 (more interestingly) Batman supposedly has this plan, yet has never used it, despite facing a rogue Superman on other occasions. This is like his and Superman’s “Doomsday Protocol” which apparently exists but never gets used, despite the circumstances having come up. All I’m saying is these are plot devices only, and only work in so far as the writer wishes them to for the story arc. They’re not a genuine part of the characters (as they’re NEVER referenced again). That’s not to say Batman couldn’t execute the plan however.
The Dark Knight Strikes Again
This book sucks. Yes Bruce beats Superman, but seriously this book sucks, so I won’t give advantage Bruce! But I do take issue with the author of the thread, again moaning about Batman’s use of other allies and years of prep for this fight. He is going up against a God! Even if he had an eternity of prep and had 10 heroes helping him, he’s still massively disadvantaged against Superman, having years of prep and Flash, Atom and a one-armed Oliver Queen help you doesn’t even slightly even the odds at all.
Agreed.
Hush
Again, advantage Kal-El? What, really? Batman’s plan here is to not get killed and snap Clark out of his mind-control. “Deep down, Clark’s essentially a good person … and deep down, I’m not”. Yes Clark is holding back, yes he could kill Bruce if he wanted to. But he doesn’t want to. That’s the point. That’s part of the character, he can still fight the mind control, he doesn’t want to hurt Bruce, Bruce knows this and takes advantage of it. Why do people complain about this? It’s true to Superman’s character and it’s just smart by Bruce taking advantage of it. Clark is about to crush Bruce with a car but then instead snaps out of the mind-control when he sees Lois hurtling to her death. Hmmm, I wonder who’s plan that was? I wonder which mortal being managed to go toe to toe with a God in a fight without getting snapped in half, then knew he could take advantage of said God’s good nature and then snap said God out of his mind control by putting the God’s loved one in danger? Oh wait, that was Batman’s plan?! And Batman’s plan against Superman succeeded?! So Batman’s plan to take on Superman succeeded, but this one’s advantage Kal-El right? Yeah exactly, this is definitely advantage Batman.
I can’t agree. This is Batman advantage because his plan works? Basically because he doesn’t die – he wins? He doesn’t die because Superman is fighting the influence – he would have been dead in seconds had Superman not been fighting the control. This is a fight that Superman was winning. He’d taken almost no damage (none that lasted anyway) and Batman was on the verge of being killed. I’m not saying it’s advantage anything – just it demonstrates your initial premise that in a straight up fight Batman doesn’t stand a chance, but also you can’t say “Advantage Batman” just because he survived.
Red Son
First of all, this is an awesome Superman book, if you haven’t read it, go get it. Second of all, again, please tell me how this is advantage Kal-El? How is it? Batman gives Superman an absolute beating and then locks him away depowered and out of commission. End of fight. Batman wins fight. Yes Wonderwoman breaks Superman out and turns off all the red lamps and so yes Batman kills himself rather than face Superman with all of his powers. But this just ties in to my point, Batman will face Superman if he knows he has a chance to beat him, which he does in this fight. Then when faced with another straight up fight, with no contingency plan or anything, just a straight up fight against big old blue, Bats know that he cannot win, he doesn’t stand a chance, so he kills himself. I’ve already admitted that Batman would get creamed in a straight up fight with Superman, but that I think he can take Superman down on his own terms. Which is what happens here. In terms of the actual fight that takes place here, the only fight that happens between Batman and Superman in this book, Batman wins it and I don’t see how anyone can say otherwise. Again, definitely advantage Batman.
You’re using double standards here, which is sad as you started out really good. 1 – outside help is allowed (as per your stance on TDKR), so Wonder Woman’s assistance is as valid as Green Arrows in TDKR, at which point the fight turns in favour of Superman. 2 – since Batman ends up dead, this IS advantage Superman, especially since you tried to give “Advantage Batman” earlier purely because he survived the fight. You can’t have it both ways man. Anyway, your other point within here (that you state Batman cannot win in a straight up fight) is correct, and it’s good you can see it. And yes, without Wonder Woman’s assistance Batman would have won (the same applies though for Green Arrow in TDKR doesn’t it?) I think it’s advantage Superman though because of the end result (which is why I also consider TDKR Advantage Batman)
Superman/Batman #2
An alternate evil Superman backhands Batman and is about to kill him with the Batmobile. I think this one really fits in to what I’m trying to say here. If Superman just decided he was going to come and fight Batman he would win instantly. However. “You know what I got sick of Bruce? You kicking the crap out of me with your toys. When you’re nothing but a man. A man who got to stay alive only because I let you. You should have killed me when you had the chance. But that will never happen now. I’m taking away that choice. The one you’ll ultimately fail to make.” First of all, I’d point out this evil Superman admits he has had his ass kicked by Batman before (probably his universe’s batman) and Batman has had the chance to kill him, so there you go, if you’re using this as a way to show Superman has beaten Batman but Batman has never beaten Superman, then it’s an extremely poor example as it doesn’t work. But really I love this quote, it literally sums up my entire thought on the matter. Yes he would end Bruce if he just decided to in a straight up fight. But at the same time Bruce would be able to take down Superman if he needed to, which has happened to this evil Suuperman. I’m afraid I can’t give advantage to Kal-El here as it is not the real universe Kal-El. But if we ignored it and said advantage evil Kal-El, you can’t use it as an argument to say Bats has never beaten Superman because this evil Kal-EL admits batman has kicked his ass before and had chances to kill him. Go figure. No advantage to either of them.
Really? No advantage? In this particular fight, Superman clearly won (any way you look at it, lol). Also the quote you’re using doesn’t state or even technically imply that he ever beat Superman, just that he would kick the crap out of him with toys (it’s entirely plausible that the end scenarios were stalemates or Superman ending the fight with a BFR or something – we don’t know). The reason we don’t know though is because the references are never shown in canon. It’s a statement made about events we’ve never witnessed (and maybe never will for now due to Flashpoint/New 52). It also shows and proves that a Superman truly intent on beating/killing Bruce will do so. The ring never gets to come into it. At any rate – Superman in the specific fight wins. You can’t deny that (since Superman only doesn’t kill Bruce due to suddenly disappearing back into the future – so yeah not an evil alternate Superman – it’s a possible future Superman trying to avert some major problem/catastrophe).
Adventures of Superman #642
This is a very sneaky attempt by the author of the thread I feel to show Superman beating Batman. Here he is possessed by Max Lord and put in an illusion where he thinks he’s fighting Darkseid, but really it’s Batman. The author of the thread might give Superman the advantage here, and it would be easy to agree, but I think that is being very deceptive indeed because if you actually read the fight you’ll see: “Superman attacks, apparently unprovoked … striking Batman and sending him flying into the secondary security blister. This potentially saves batman’s life as he is able to engage the watchtower’s intruder counter-measures. Computer’s log activation of first tier internal defences at 1432.41 and immediately assess the threat level as gamma.” Then basically watchtower security comes on and buys batman enough time until Wonderwoman arrives to take on Superman. So, Superman attacks Batman randomly here, an actual case of being Batman unprepared for a fight with Superman, and Bats uses Superman’s mistake against him to save his life. In that split second he takes advantage of the fact Superman slams him into the security blister to turn on the defense systems. This saves his life. It buys enough time until Wonderwoman arrives. So, Batman is attacked unprovoked and randomly, with no plan at all, the battle is not on his terms, he knows he will lose this fight and yet he manages to come up with something, barely anything at all, which ends up saving his life. Seriously, Batman deserves props here, he did literally just enough to stay alive. Superman’s plan here, kill Batman, fails. Batman’s plan here, stay alive and get out of this fight he can’t win, succeeds. If I can’t give the advantage to Batman I’m definitely not giving it to Superman, Batman can do nothing in this fight but still manages to come up with something to buy himself precious seconds. But what the hell, I’m a Batfan I said, advantage Batman.
At least you admit your just being a bias fanboy – the problem with that though is you were supposed to be providing sensible arguments – in which case fanboyism should be set to the side. This is advantage Superman, and I say so for 2 reasons. 1 - Surviving is not winning. 2 – For the purposes of “who would win” etc… this means that Batman isn’t always allowed prep. You can’t give him extra points because he suddenly doesn’t get prep. Yes, he survived (only because comic book lore says he isn’t crushed instantly due to his suit?) but he didn’t “win” – therefore it can’t be advantage Batman. Surviving a fight is not winning. Also Superman’s plan wouldn’t have been kill Batman as Superman doesn’t kill. Granted he thinks he’s attacking Darkseid, but he still wouldn’t be trying to kill him.
Superman/Batman #23
Batman possessed by Kryptonite Man. Loses to Kal-El.
High showing though for Superman in terms of endurance against Kryptonite.
Superman/Batman #33
Batman possessed by Blackrock, gets superpowers, loses to Kal-El.
To address both of the above, all I really want to say is, neither of them are Superman vs Batman examples. When the superhero is possessed it’s not really the superhero anymore it’s just their body and powers. The difference is, if Superman is possessed, the possessor has all of his incredible powers to use against Batman. If Batman is possessed, the possessor gains no powers but then also loses the only things Batman has that make him Batman. His brilliant mind, unbreakable spirit, perseverance, will to win, etc. When Batman is possessed, it’s not batman anymore it’s just a person in a batsuit, it takes away everything he has that he himself would use to take on Clark. When Superman is possessed, you still have all the powers Superman would have to easily destroy Bruce, it’s just that it’s not Clark Kent anymore.
So how you can say these are examples of Superman taking down Batman are really cheap in my opinion and totally untrue. Unless it is the mind of Bruce Wayne then it is not Batman at all, his mind is the only power he has.
Advantage no one.
I kind of agree with you – but in saying that, generally when a villain gains possession of someone they can access their mind as well (take Deadman for example). Kryptonite man doesn't seem that way in this case, but in Blackrock’s case, it is able to access their minds – meaning Bruce’s mind was there and usable and Blackrock was more than capable of knowing how to beat Superman, use his planning abilities, fighting skills (which are more muscle memory than thought anyway) etc… making this a valid win for Superman.
Justice League #2
Batman doesn’t want to fight here and doesn’t really even try to, he wants to talk. He didn’t even want to engage in the first place, Green Lantern did. Given this is the first time they meet in new continuity, do you really expect Batman to be able to do anything. Nothing really even happens here, Superman is doing the fighting, Batman wants to stop and talk. But fine I’ll give Kal-El advantage, he would have easily crushed Bruce in this case.
I don’t think Batman isn’t fighting because he wants to talk exactly – I think it’s more he knows he’s about to be crushed, and would have been if not for GL (also good showing for Superman in terms of breaking GL’s constructs – something up till that point had never occurred). But we agree on the final outcome. Also the fact he didn’t want to engage in the first place/wants to talk, not fight - isn’t granted to Superman in TDKR, so again a double-standard.
Batman: The Dark Knight #5
Again this is just stupid, he’s drugged here and totally out of his mind. If Batman isn’t in control of his mind then it’s not Batman. The only thing Batman has in a fight is his mind, if you take that away, it’s literally just completely pointless to discuss Superman vs Batman because it is not Superman vs Batman. Advantage no one.
Disagree. It clouds their judgement but he’s not “out of his mind”. Batman’s earlier enemies on it where hyped up and nothing suggests they didn’t have the ability to use their faculties. In fact it appears to enhance their skills due to increased speed and strength – so really he should have been a better match for Superman. Again because he isn’t prepping and it’s a spur of the moment fight – you’re trying to argue against the outcome – which is total ownage for Superman – knocks him out in one punch (and since it’s new 52, this is MORE canon than any previous examples anyway).
Superman: Execution 2001 (part of Armageddon 2001)
This one is not on the thread so I thought I’d add it. Batman kills a Superman who has become totalitarian. Yes he uses a tech suit, allies and prep, but again I just say so what. He is a mere mortal going up against a God. It is only fair that he gets to. He kills Superman with the kryptonite ring. Advantage Batman
I agree – this should have been there. It’s not canon, but it should have been in the list.
So there is my rebuttal to all of the points made on that thread. The point wasn’t to show Batman beats Superman in a fight, as I’ve stated in a straight up fist fight, Superman would annihilate Bruce. It was to show the author is wrong in saying Superman has beaten Batman numerous times when in fact he hasn’t. He took an extremely liberal view on pretty much all of the fights listed to give Kal-El the advantage in them, when in fact he didn’t. But hey, he’s most probably a Superman fight and I’m a batman fan, so maybe I’m biased, but I think the points I listed were sensible.
The liberal view IMO is yours. You define surviving the fight as an advantage to Batman several times, in which case TDKR is advantage Superman, since he survives that one better than Bruce does. In terms of the characters physically fighting, Superman is the winner on more occasions than Batman (and Batman’s only victories occur out of canon, which was one of the original authors points). Basically the issue is this - if the question is "who wins in a fight", then it isn't "The winner is who successfully survives/executes their plan correctly". That's a different argument all together, and it also negates the validity of some of your other points, and then also reverses the decision on TDKR. It also then has a further problem of providing a guaranteed win for Batman, because in all the instances Superman never has a plan, not even a spur of the moment one (or when he does, it works so again he wins anyway such as against Blackrock possessed Batman).
The “winner” or determination at best should be judged in a similar way to a boxing match. So you either win because the opponent is dead or KO’d, or would have won if the fight had continued (so no external factors ending the fight, regaining mind-control etc…). By this determination:
1. TDKR is a tough call, considering how the fight ends, but I’ll gift it as Batman.
2. Tower of Babel – not counted as it isn’t Batman anyway. Disqualified.
3. TDKSA – Batman & gang
4. HUSH – Superman
5. Red Son – Superman (remember it's based on final outcome with Batman dead/knowing he would lose and be mind controlled, not the halfway mark of the fight)
6. Superman/Batman # 2 – Superman
7. AoS # 642 – Superman
8. Superman/Batman #23 – Neither on a technicality (technically it was only Batman’s body as the opponent, so let’s discount it all together) – Disqualified.
9. Superman/Batman #33 – Superman
10. Justice League #2 – Superman
11. Batman: The Dark Knight #5 – Superman
12. Superman: Execution 2001 – Batman
So that’s Batman with 3, 2 disqualifications and Superman with 7. That’s a Superman stomp in a battle thread. If we then discount non-continuity examples, then Batman’s score/points drops to 0, but Superman gets to keep his 7, making it 7-0 in Superman’s favour.
A couple of final points I want to make are:
1. In the new 52, when faced against Despero wearing the kryptonite ring, Superman is completely crippled. It’s pretty devastating, Superman has to fly to the sun to recharge and Bats says he will be fine in 24 hours. I think this is a pretty good indication it would be an effective weapon for Bruce to take down Clark in new 52.
This is a single low showing. I responded to this on another thread where someone had that scan and I listed multiple instances in New 52 continuity where the amount of kryptonite is far greater than the ring and it has a much lower impact. They added this in to justify Despero’s defeat by MM and the others being needed as Superman “couldn’t have done it”, and it was a setup for Trinity War anyway. It was weak writing and is outweighed by the many other instances within current continuity. If you want/need the examples, I can give them to you, just let me know.
2. At the end of the day, Clark gave Bruce the kryptonite. Out of everyone in the DC universe, he’s the one he believes would be able to get the job done if someone had to stop him. That’s been DC lore for decades now. If Clark believes Bruce can take him down I think it should be good enough for everyone else to believe he could take him down.
I believe this is a misrepresentation of the understanding between the two. Superman doesn’t think Batman is the only one physically capable of stopping him due to skill or anything. It’s because he realises Batman is the only one who can be objective enough to do what needs to be done (all the others will let emotion cloud them and possibly stop them or cause them to hesitate too long – Batman doesn’t have this problem). The ring is a symbol of that more than an actual means, as I don’t believe either of them feels it would be enough in and of itself to take him down, and in fact with a single exception (ok 2 counting the Armageddon 2001 story) it hasn’t ever been enough.
Ok, so there was a point you made that I said I would come back to. Here it is. The issue with either of them in a fight is the same – it comes down to what the writer of the story/issue/arc is wanting to accomplish. Frank Miller for example wanted to tell a particular story and in doing so completely bastardised the Superman character and his powers. Similarly, when Superman fights Batman as possessed by the Kryptonite Man, Superman’s durability is seemingly greater than normal, and he displays usage of pressure points and training he normally doesn’t display (multiple possible explanations for this). Similarly, if you want a hypothetical situation that hasn’t occurred in comics – you can make it go any which way you want since it’s all fiction anyway. If these were “real” characters however, Superman wins, - it’s no contest, even with infinite prep-time to Batman. Physics dictates Batman couldn’t survive even a single punch. The only way he could is Superman is holding back, which if he is, it isn’t a real “fight” as such but something weird is happening. Also if he’s able to hold back enough to not kill him, he would place it at the right amount of force to knock him out (which in real life, isn’t much). Back to comics reality based scenario though, there’s a morals argument that comes into play. There’s single sided prep-time for Batman in any scenario where he wins, and unlimited access to kryptonite and red sun-lamps (which makes no sense, but anyway – it’s comics). My point is – a hypothetical fight will be determined by the writer/creator. In actual comics however, Superman wins in canon, and only loses to non-canon Batman due to a specific writers desire to make it so for the purpose of that story.
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