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    Batman

    Character » Batman appears in 23535 issues.

    Bruce Wayne, who witnessed the murder of his billionaire parents as a child, swore to avenge their deaths. He trained extensively to achieve mental and physical perfection, mastering martial arts, detective skills, and criminal psychology. Costumed as a bat to prey on the fears of criminals, and utilizing a high-tech arsenal, he became the legendary Batman.

    Batman is a OP prep time mastermind who knows everything

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    Saren

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    @saren: You're right in stating that Luthor's intellect is PIS, but we Superman fan oys don't talk about it much. What I was trying to say is that Luthor's intellect has to be PIS or he wouldn't be able to challenge Superman and his function in comics would be nulled.

    In admitting that Batman's intelligence is plot-based, you're admitting that Batman is a PIS character and that's what the OP and I are arguing. The problem isn't that he's a PIS character, that problem is that there is a logical inconsistency in portraying him as one. How can he struggle with the Joker and a Penguin, but stay alive with against Superman and Darkseid?

    The point in me stating that Batman wasn't created to fight guys like Superman 70+ years ago wasn't to say the character shouldn't change, it to say that Batman shouldn't be facing off against beings like Superman. It's a disservice to Superman AND it is a betrayal of the message of the character.

    I never said Luthor's intellect was PIS; you are conflating my words with entropy's. I did not say Batman was a PIS character either. Intelligence is one of those traits in comics that is so open-ended and poorly defined that it can be interpreted in a million different ways depending on who's doing the writing. To critique Batman's intelligence as PIS, you'd have to call Iron Man, Black Panther, Reed Richards, the Atom, T.O. Morrow, Sivana and more or less every other genius in comics a PIS-based character, because they've all had their intelligence boosted or modified over the decades to keep pace with the changing climate, as well as having it kept as a floating variable in any story they're in.

    There is a logical inconsistency in portraying a wide range of characters for very simple reasons. Why does Superman even have villains like Livewire and Toyman? What is Captain America doing on a team that faces off against Kang and Ultron? Why is Hawkeye even alive when he's using weaponry that was obsolete 500 years ago? How does Flash take on Zoom if he has problems with Trickster and Tar Pit? How does Green Lantern struggle with Shark and then fight Mongul? Characters aren't alive or fixed quantities. They do what the writer thinks they can do, and the beliefs of the writer and the demands of the story, spread over a variety of different places and contexts characters have to pop up in, create that inconsistency you're talking about. It affects practically any and all characters. Batman gets singled out for crap like this because people can't stop bellyaching about the time he beat up their favorite hero at some point or another. Again, we have been through all of this. Literally the only thing you keep bringing to this thread is the constant "But that doesn't make sense/Not what they were created for" refrains.

    Really, that's what you're going with? It's a disservice to Superman? You're right; as we all know, the true message of Superman, the purpose he was designed for, and the values he represents, all come down to whether or not he can beat Batman in a fight. That's what's important. That's his message and his ideals and everything he stands for. The Superman Question has been put to rest.

    There's a disservice being done to Superman when this topic comes around, but you can rest assured Batman has nothing to do with it.

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    youknowwhattodo

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    To be fair, Batman in the new 52 has been humbled quite a bit. The days of him "out-prepping" the competition in Justice League canon seem to be in the past.

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    LordoftheNorth

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    @youknowwhattodo: well considering the present Batman has done jack all of nothing i have to say i prefur the Batman that was actualy useful and not just in a book becuase he is the best selling character right now

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    Bezza

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    ..Yeah Batman has taken his kickings in the New 52 universe, has this "anti Bat-God" thing gone too far?

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    TDK_1997

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    #55 TDK_1997  Online

    @bezza said:

    ..Yeah Batman has taken his kickings in the New 52 universe, has this "anti Bat-God" thing gone too far?

    Ohhh you think so,how can it stop when Snyder thinks that it would be better if in every major story arc and actually in every story arc he does Batman gets smacked around but then he will get up and eventually win.How can actually anyone be sick of that?!

    P.S:I'm not trying to mock you or anything,I meant this to show how idiotic is Snyder's writing and not to insult you.

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    blackhawk000111

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    #56  Edited By blackhawk000111

    @superguy1591:

    @saren: You're right in stating that Luthor's intellect is PIS, but we Superman fan oys don't talk about it much. What I was trying to say is that Luthor's intellect has to be PIS or he wouldn't be able to challenge Superman and his function in comics would be nulled.

    In admitting that Batman's intelligence is plot-based, you're admitting that Batman is a PIS character and that's what the OP and I are arguing. The problem isn't that he's a PIS character, that problem is that there is a logical inconsistency in portraying him as one. How can he struggle with the Joker and a Penguin, but stay alive with against Superman and Darkseid?

    The point in me stating that Batman wasn't created to fight guys like Superman 70+ years ago wasn't to say the character shouldn't change, it to say that Batman shouldn't be facing off against beings like Superman. It's a disservice to Superman AND it is a betrayal of the message of the character.

    He struggle with the Joker and Riddler because they are smart too (By the way I think Batman rarly struggle against them)

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    Superguy1591

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    @saren: Again, all those other characters aren't supposed to be men without superpowers, like Batman. Their IQ can go as high as the writer wants, they don't have a set of limitations in place.

    As far as all your feats go, they're all PIS. Never said PIS was limited to Batman, even Superman has PIS related feats.

    The disservice to the character is not to Superman, it's to Batman. Batman facing Superman is not what the character was created to do, it may boost his popularity, but it isn't the point of the character.

    And oh yeah, Superman, whenever Batman is around, becomes a lame so that Batman can shine.

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    Superguy1591

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    deactivated-5d2b83d5a0d79

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    Stay salty my friends.

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    Jokerpoker

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    #60  Edited By Jokerpoker

    .....yes.....

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    lifeofvibe

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    #61  Edited By lifeofvibe

    @redwingx:

    YES! I've been saving this arguement for the right occasion! and this is my arguement.

    you cant prep against the unprodictable

    joker

    riddler

    two face

    you cant prep without knowing that certain characters location

    bane

    ras

    court of owls

    league of assassins

    one cant prep if one is two send the other to jail or asylum meaning theres gota be hard evedance on these folks if your gonna have any chance of defeating them

    penguin

    falcons

    catwoman

    deadshot

    and the point is there are a lot of thing keeping batman from preping for these villains and another thing...prep time is mainly a desperate times calls fo desperate measures kind of thing this is why he cant clean up gotham but he could clean up the galaxy if he wanted

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    Bezza

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    ..Why does it always come down to fanboys of batman and superman facing off?!

    Batman really is the prep master and the fact that he struggles with street levellers like Joker and Penguin buts wades into the likes of Darkseid just makes him more interesting in my book!

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    righteous300

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    #63  Edited By righteous300

    @redwingx said:

    Batman has stopped alien invasions, defeated the predator, defeated superman, and has contingency plans for EVERYTHING.

    Yet were supposed to believe he has problem taking down thugs and the likes of Riddler? Gotham should have been fixed a long time ago.

    Someone's salty.

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    blackhawk000111

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    #64  Edited By blackhawk000111

    @redwingx:

    YES! I've been saving this arguement for the right occasion! and this is my arguement.

    you cant prep against the unprodictable

    joker

    riddler

    two face

    you cant prep without knowing that certain characters location

    bane

    ras

    court of owls

    league of assassins

    one cant prep if one is two send the other to jail or asylum meaning theres gota be hard evedance on these folks if your gonna have any chance of defeating them

    penguin

    falcons

    catwoman

    deadshot

    and the point is there are a lot of thing keeping batman from preping for these villains and another thing...prep time is mainly a desperate times calls fo desperate measures kind of thing this is why he cant clean up gotham but he could clean up the galaxy if he wanted

    This

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    ganon15

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    #65  Edited By ganon15

    @mike01 said:

    True. People admit how over powered superman is but batman I literally the most over powered character in an universe. He started as a guy in a cowl who solves mysteries and can throw a punch at the levels of Patrick Swayze from Road house and has evolved into an almost all knowing ultra tough guy who takes down some of the most powerful beings he encounters. I love his as a character but his reputation is "he can do it cause he's batman" no explanation needed.

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    primebonnick

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    Lucifer Morningstar says Hi

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    lifeofvibe

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    batzilla

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    @saren: You're right in stating that Luthor's intellect is PIS, but we Superman fan oys don't talk about it much. What I was trying to say is that Luthor's intellect has to be PIS or he wouldn't be able to challenge Superman and his function in comics would be nulled.

    In admitting that Batman's intelligence is plot-based, you're admitting that Batman is a PIS character and that's what the OP and I are arguing. The problem isn't that he's a PIS character, that problem is that there is a logical inconsistency in portraying him as one. How can he struggle with the Joker and a Penguin, but stay alive with against Superman and Darkseid?

    The point in me stating that Batman wasn't created to fight guys like Superman 70+ years ago wasn't to say the character shouldn't change, it to say that Batman shouldn't be facing off against beings like Superman. It's a disservice to Superman AND it is a betrayal of the message of the character.

    You just keep going in circles repeating the same thing over and over. What you are saying doesn't make sense, so its ok for a really smart human like Luthor to get the better of Superman by using his cunning intellect, but its not ok for another really smart human in Batman, who also happens to be the greatest detective in the world.

    So again, you're really contradicting yourself, by saying its ok for Luthor but not for Batman, just stop already. DC has pretty much established that Batman and Luthor can beat superman by using their intellect, not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.

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    lifeofvibe

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    no one botherd...my post was useless

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    deactivated-59c716930b8a6

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    I enjoyed humoring myself with the debates within this thread.

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    Danielhx

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    #71  Edited By Danielhx

    This thread is really dumb...

    Batman's philosophy, standards, and humanitary views is what keeps gotham uncleansed.

    Has nothing to do with his genuis. Luthor's genuis is focused around destructive capabilities to combat superman while batman is focused on calculation of the enemies' next move which is very relevent to his mastery of detective skills/medicine(antidotes)/martial arts/mechanical prowess.

    Reason why he can take on gods is cause their goals are laid out and once that is exposed you already lost.

    Plus he has a contigency plan on all of his friends who are same breed as these enemies you guys keep whining about which is why he seems op.

    This should conclude the argument that luthor is a dumb smart guy who can only build debilitating/destructive devices rather than being able to dodge a punch after he fails.

    Batman is limited by his human values so his solution was making enemies fear him so they wouldnt commit crime behind his back. It worked on small crime but criminals that are chaotic or arent citizens of gotham arent containable.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    MuyJingo

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    @saren said:

    @superguy1591 said:

    @entropy_aegis: Luthor's job is to challenge Superman, he was not created to be a man without superpowers. Luthor was created to take on gods, Batman was created to take on crime.

    Luthor was created to be a man without superpowers. The whole point of his existence is Man vs Super-Man. That is who he is. Part of a shared continuity is characters stretching out of their roots and original positions to become more as part of a whole; now you can argue emptily about Batman and Luthor being different types of genius billionaires with toys they pull out of nowhere on a whim, but after 50+ years of a concrete shared platform for DC's characters, insisting they stick to what they were created as is just silly.

    I don't even know why Superman fans come to these threads anymore and think they're being insightful with these allegedly pithy observations about Batman and his fans. You couldn't find a more transparent veil for bitterness and resentment anywhere else on this site. Yes, Batman isn't a consistent character. That's fiction for you. That's what happens with a body of work that hundreds of writers work on over decades --- there are cracks in the narrative. Batman's not, and never has been, the only character who receives the benefit or detriment of these cracks. Yes, sometimes this leads to Batman making Superman look bad, or sometimes just beating the snot out of Superman. Again, that's fiction for you. I would like to think these petty little internet vendettas are the hobby of children gnashing their teeth together as they fume about the fact that contrary opinions exist, rather than mature posters who want, expect or deserve to be taken seriously.

    I think you are hands down my favorite poster on the vine. Very nicely said with very astute observations.

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    MuyJingo

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    I don't understand why people think Batman defeating aliens, usually by being sneaky and planting a device or hacking a device and working as part of a larger team of beings with powers, is it all comparable to Batman working alone, trying to stop a crazed psychopath.

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    deactivated-57d568743bdb8

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    Interesting theory

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    KingOfKings1

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    Batman > One above all

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    deathstroke52

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    Batman is a human with human limits. Like it or not, that's always going to remain true. That being said, he can take down some pretty tough and high tier villains. But he is not an OP prep time mastermind that knows everything. That would be illogical and out of his character.

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    DeathpooltheT1000

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    This its called Flanderization.

    This happened because he got popular, he got to be in the JLA, so to keep him relevant and popular, they need him to be more God A Like.

    Batman isnt who he used to be, not only this but when Nolan decide to make Batman less God A Like he got hate.

    Batman hate its a natural reaction to Batman being PISMAN!!!

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    TheDuskSentinel

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    The reason I think Batman is such an important and relevant character to the JLA, and DC comics in general, is because he forces writers to get creative. Sure they can write Superman beating the big-bad into submission, but that wouldn't be very creative.

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    Rayox21

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    #80  Edited By Rayox21

    The only thing in the multiverse that can defeat Batman is Batman (and maybe killer croc with a rock "I threw a rock at him")

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    deactivated-5d30ff90eed8f

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    To be fair, when Batman is caught off guard, many characters can kill him without to much difficulty. For example, in the begging DC Rebirth, Reverseflash came out of nowhere and started kicking the snot out of him. Now, if it were Superman in that cenario, he would have been able to defend himself easily. Granted, with most characters he faces he doesn't need prep time, but if we're talking about a random ecounter with someone like Reverseflash, Batman is going to get stomped.

    P.S. Batman is my favourite superhero.

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    deactivated-5b2121a0a9a00

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    You'd need a Batman to beat a Batman

    Batman = TOAA + The Presence

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    MasterSkywalker

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    Batman is Batman. To question him is to question God himself.

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    Usha

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    Batman is Batman. To question him is to question God himself.

    Truer words have never been spoken.

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    RockyWocky

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    I feel like there are two batmans in a sense. One that protects Gotham, and one that is with the Justice League. Justice League batman is ment to be OP in sense because he makes DC a lot of money, so he and superman are always the central characters.

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    deactivated-5d30ff90eed8f

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    @superguy1591 said:

    Shih... Batman fans don't like it when you call out their hypocrisy.

    Whenever someone says Batman is an overrated guy in a bat costume Superman fanboys blindly agree, but when ever someone says Batman is OP Superman fanboys agree to with that. Superman fanboys are the real hypocrites.

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    deathstroke512

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    Yes.yes he is .deal with it.

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    Galactic_1000

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    Batman is Omniscience

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    Nkishi

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    @mike01 said:

    True. People admit how over powered superman is but batman I literally the most over powered character in an universe. He started as a guy in a cowl who solves mysteries and can throw a punch at the levels of Patrick Swayze from Road house and has evolved into an almost all knowing ultra tough guy who takes down some of the most powerful beings he encounters. I love his as a character but his reputation is "he can do it cause he's batman" no explanation needed.

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    deactivated-5b0ff1f569a57

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    He isn’t. He probably peaks at high level teambuster with tons of versatility within any reasonable amount of time.

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    KrleAvenger

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    Lack of necessity of this thread can easily be noticed once you realize that the OP just answered his own question, or rather debunked his own argument with the second sentence.

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    AssassinB

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    #94  Edited By AssassinB
    @nkishi said:
    @mike01 said:

    True. People admit how over powered superman is but batman I literally the most over powered character in an universe. He started as a guy in a cowl who solves mysteries and can throw a punch at the levels of Patrick Swayze from Road house and has evolved into an almost all knowing ultra tough guy who takes down some of the most powerful beings he encounters. I love his as a character but his reputation is "he can do it cause he's batman" no explanation needed.

    Is called romanticization of the invincibility of man. And as a character, Batman is also a tool of marketing. And the easiest way to sell something, is to appeal to the lowest common denominator, our human insecurities.

    Batman is an archetype of "manliness" so naturaly, he is going to have all the cliché characteristics of "manhood". If you make him a vulnerable human, he loses his place in that pedestal.

    And if you ever take away that "power" on very masculine characters like Batman, you could hurt people feelings and idealizations, because many young men (and also insecure old men) project themselves on that ideal. You can't really escape from that, is in all the media we consume. Sports, magazines, movies, clothes; even common social expectations. It sucks. Batman is an icon that is also used to sell that "masculity ideal" to young people.

    So the "Godamn Batman" is an easy tool to sell, in contrast to something reflective, or that makes you question things.

    Sorry if this post makes some people angry. I guess I'm really old. LOL

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    doctorjimmy

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    Batman is an archetype of "manliness" so naturaly, he is going to have all the cliché characteristics of "manhood". If you make him a vulnerable human, he loses his place in that pedestal.

    I always thought Batman was a pretty vulnerable human being, both physically and emotionally...but maybe we read different Batman stories

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    AssassinB

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    #96  Edited By AssassinB

    @doctorjimmy: Yes, but the post I replied says something about being tired of the "godamn Batman" meme. And I understand were he/she comes from. I being reading Batman comics for more than 20 years and I can tell when publishers are marketing just to appeal to men insecurites, and when writers actually care about telling good stories. :3

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    doctorjimmy

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    @assassinb: oh yes i see where you're coming from totally bud, i didn't check the quote you replied too lol sorry

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    AssassinB

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    deactivated-5d30ff90eed8f

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    Anyway, him being overpowered didn't stop Reverse Flash from running into the Batcave and beating the crap out of him.

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    DampfGecko

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    Imho, Batman works best when he has well-established limits. That does not necessarily have to stop him from foiling alien invasions and the like, as he's in a good position to be the character to pick up on important plot details and set up situations where his more powerful peers are able to change what's going on.

    Sure, Batman has to be "up there" in most fields of expertise, but he shouldn't be (and isn't, as far as I'm concerned) the absolute unabated best in anything. The best Batman stories are always those where he works around his own weaknesses within the clear confines of the plot (necessity can be a great equalizer)- that doesn't really change, whether it's Riddler in Gotham or some Alien Overlord in a JLA story. Batman is a capable badass, not a one note meme-sue if you do it right. Anything less will not suffice.

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