I'm just fishing for opinions here guys :D

After coming back from the theatre (watching the awesome Avengers movie) I started again thinking about the Justice League movie WB has been struggling to get out of development hell. I started thinking about the characters, what the plot would be like but then something started bugging me.. I'm pretty sure that if I did a JL movie it would probably have an alien invasion as well, but .... Would Batman work in a JL movie, if it was about an alien invasion? And if your movies were ''realistic'' in a way that they made sense, would Batman factor in with all that? Would Superman, GL, Wonder Woman, etc... even allow Batman on the roster of the fact that he's human? Would he even be able to do anything against the alien threat. I know he kicks ass in the comics and that he's resourceful, brilliant and all that, but we're talking about a movie here... Would you buy that?

It was the same with Black Widow and Hawkeye in the Avengers movie... They're both human characters in a way and both of them do some funky shit in the movie.. Especially BW... That detracts from what the movies told us and it messes with the continuity a bit... For me at least :D

I just want opinions :D

Most of people dont know Black Widow and Hawkeye are normal humans.

Also, those character arent as popular for their humanity as Batman, so dont compare those low cards with a main man.

Just because it worked for those two, dont means it would work for Batman, it could feel fake for people or to Adam West for their taste.(West was good for the 60s, but not for today)

Just becuase, some character are humans, dont mean are at the same level or the same thing will work for them.

To be honest the only way to make Batman a team member is with a tech armour and i would hate if he doea that when he is young.

Bruce should only user tech armours when he gets old and need the extra help.

Thanks for you reply! :)

''Most of people dont know Black Widow and Hawkeye are normal humans.''

Yet when I was in the theatre everybody rolled their eyes when BW could hold on to that flying chariot when it flew by and not losing her entire arm in the process... If these two characters have guns and are skilled in martial arts it's safe to assume that they don't have superpowers. I know that that isn't always the case with comic book characters, but you do get a vibe for them from this movie and from IM2 and Thor. You just say: ''I guess they're just two badass agents''.

''To be honest the only way to make Batman a team member is with a tech armour and i would hate if he doea that when he is young.''

That's the thing! That would really be the only thing that could help him out. I mean he's going up against aliens with formidable weaponry, advanced even (if they have the capability to travel interstellar distances they must be miles from where we're now technologically). But going up against them in his regular costume.. I think that would be a recipe for disaster...

@SlovBoy: Yeah, but those guys need more of their gadgets/weapons/armour that his humans skills, that is the main core and essence of Batman, so it could hurt the character on screen, movie Batman cant do the same that comic book and cartoon Batman, because is another medium and that mean dont follow the same rules, heck cartoon Batman is weaker that comic book Batman.

Also, just becuase Avengers used aliens, dont mean JLA need to take on aliens, it could be about beat a bunch of people and Batman could be the brain or DC could go with Kingdome Come and give him an armour to old Bruce.

@DeathpooltheT1000: Not true about Batman only being useful with tech armour. Just check out the first arc of Grant Morrisons JLA. Batman took out more of the Martian Invaders than any of the other Leaguers by outwitting them and using stealth. Dont sell Batman so short. He may not be able to physically go toe to toe with super powered alien Invaders (like the White Martians) but he certainly has his role to play on the team.

But even then if the Aliens were the same level as the Chitauri in the Avengers Batman could take them on no problem. They werent super powered or anything they just had overwhelming numbers and superior technology. If Cap and Black Widow could take them on Batman would destroy them.

@noj: I am the only one that remember that Movie Batman dont follow the same logic that comic book Batman, and for the same what he can do in the comic dont apply to the movies.

The main problem is that Batman is a normal human, people cant forget that, with Black Widow and Hawkeye can work, but Batman is about his own humanity, about what a normal human can became, i mean even Joel Shumacher Batman, who was the most powerfull one. take down pretty much normal humans, Bane was a humn in super roids and Arnold was a human in an armour, Poison Ivy never show anything beyound being super smart and having the kiss powers.

Also, dont sell Nolanverse Batman short, he can beat Black Widow and Hawkeye.

Evidence that those pitty humans, cant beat Batman, even the Nolanverse universe ones.

@SlovBoy: I share your concern. I just don't buy Nolan's batman as a JL batman. Sure batman has the fighting skill in the comics to match anyone in h2h, but that's not what I've seen from the cinematic dark knight. His fighting technique is much more brawler than skill. And his intelligence is played down in Nolan's films as well. His tech comes from Fox or other off screen researchers and developers.

@DeathpooltheT1000: But Nolan's Batman wouldnt be the Batman in a Justice League movie. They would need to make a new Batman and Im sure that he would be alot closer to his comic counterpart.

Thanks for the replies!

Of course Nolan's Batman would be used in a JL movie, tonally it just doesn't fit. But even if they created a new Batman and as you said made him a lot closer to his comic book counterpart - that to me would still make him relatively unrealistic. Gadgets and stuff won't help you if there's a superpowered being coming at you. In the comics Batman can do a lot of impossible shit by human standards so if that's out of the question.. really, what's left? For me, if I ever developed a JL movie, I just wouldn't put Batman in there. But if I did, I would give him a special tech armor so that he would use just in case if there ever was an alien invasion because I think that's what a Justice League movie should have. Batman seeing that he has to up the ante so that he could try to turn the tides in their favor.

Or if they went the Avengers way - introduce a villian similar to the Chitauri and go with that.. Batman would be part of the ground team - him and Flash that is. Ha.. It's just really hard for me seeing Batman in a live action movie with Superman, Martian Manhunter, WW, Flash and GL.. :D :D (that's my ideal roster).

You would need to get a new Batman to be able to do it. The Nolan Batman wouldn't work in a universe with Superman and Wonderwoman.

Whoops... I meant that he WOULDN'T be used in a JL, not that he would :D my mistake hehe

@SlovBoy: @Yai_Inn: @noj: @ME24601: Did you remember that the most powerfull movie Batman is Joel Batman and he is still pretty human, also the whole Batman use elbows is for a reason, an elbow is better that a fists, is faster to ko some one with them, also Batman in the Nolanverse is more in tone with modern martial arts movies, Donnie Yen and Undisputed try to make it less of a dance and more of a fight, even with flying kicks, Undisputed try to make it looks less like a Wu Xia movie and more like a fight, Flaspoint does the same, try to make it look more like if two guy try to destroy each other, more that if they dance, Ong Bak does the same and pretty much the best martial arts movies of today do that.

Joel is an example of 90s Jackie Chan martial arts crazyness. Nolan is the example of hard hitting modern martial arts movies(Also Nolan hired many of the best martial artist in movies today is the Rash Al Ghul Ninjas, the black mobster is Micheal jai White one of the all time best movie martial artist).

Batman is a human, the reason why we like him and people like him is that one, Black Widow and Hawkeye could get power and nothing would change, give power to Batman and everything will change.

Joel Batman is the example of when you try to make the comic book Batman in a movie, i like Batman Forever, i think it was by far better that the crappy Burton films, but that dont change the fact, that Joel Batman would look really, really weak with any live action Superman.

People just follow a dumb logic, if it worked for Hawkeye and Black Widow, will work for Batman, no, becuase Batman isnt like Black Widow and Hawkeye.

Noy all the character are the same, that means you need some thing for some character and other thing for other characters.

I mean, Wolverine and Spiderman are the most popular Marvel guys and they didnt have a scene in the Avenger movie, and dont say other universe, becuase my point is that you dont need your most popular characters in the movie.

But Batman is a core member of the League, Marvel has two sets of trinities. They have their Avengers trinity copying the JL's: Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America. And they have their money making trinity: Wolverine, Spiderman, and Hulk. Traditionally te hulk is an avenger, Wolverine is an X-man, and Spiderman is solo. So thats why you didn't need Wolverine or Spiderman in that movie. The JL has a trinity too, Superman, Wonderwoman, and BATMAN. You can't have a JL movie without the trinity. And honestly it would be great too see a martial arts version of Batman for once.

Ever since Burton's movie, every incarnation of Batman has been STIFF. IF they make him a more fluid character, then Batman will work with ease. People can suspend reality during a movie, especially a good one. So Batman could easily be made believable in a movie, and still be grounded. And as for the plot JL is definitely not going White Martian or Darkseid simply because Avengers has Thanos pegged for their next movie and JL would just be a copycat. They are far more likely to do Legion of Doom or Secret Society. Batman is known for his brains, so I wouldn't discount the revamped Batman till you see it. Have faith in the directors to do him right.

If there ever is a JLA movie, you can be sure it won't follow of TDK Universe. Batman will eventually get another reboot, and maybe then we can finally get a JLA movie.

Cap was intentionally powered up for The Avengers compared to his comics counterpart; in The First Avenger he's throwing dudes in 300 pound suits of armor 10 feet in the air, breaks through a submarine window designed to withstand thousands of pounds of pressure while underwater, etc. Physically, he's far beyond his comics counterpart, and also displayed some leadership as well.

With Batman, they obviously can't go that far physically, but with the overall plan being a JLA movie, they can play up his martial arts, stealth, and intelligence in his solo movies.

Comic Cap > Movie Cap in power levels btw.

Batman could definitely work in a JL movie, not to mention that he would be the prime reason people go see the movie. The last Superman movie flopped, GL certainly left a bad taste in most peoples mouths, Flash WW and MM don't have solo movies. This leads Batman to draw the audience in.

Of course, the Nolan Batman could not be used as he isn't shown as being one of the best martial artists in the world, nor as the world's greatest detective. Rather he is shown in those movies as being the world's richest orphan. Build a comicbook Batman into a JL movie, and he is worth far more than people give him credit for. Whether it be due to him discovering the true bad guy behind the evil plot, or to devise a scheme to win the battle; Batman will find a way. Plus, true martial arts mastery can get you pretty far in the world, especially when you have billions of dollars of toys

@noj: Agreed, Nolan even said that if his batman were to be involved with the Justice league film. "he would have became batman for a totally different reason". Which is why they are rebooting Batman to fit in the Justice League. I don't see how Black Widow and Hawkeye can fit in team up and Batman can't, if anything i thinks it the total opposite. Batman (IMO) brings more to the table than a renegade Archer and a Russia Spy (who can't make up her mind on which side she is on). Batman has a completely different theme than just humanity. He is the person that keeps the team grounded by reminding them what they are fighting for and who they are fighting for. Its because he is human that the audience is able to identify i mean sure he looks silly in his costume but they all do so you can say that he doesn't fit because Joss Whedon agreed to that statement about the avengers he said " these guys shouldn't be in the same room together let alone the same team, and that is my idea of family"... again just saying.

Just like batshrine said, Batman is a core member of the JL, not including him would probably piss off a lot of fans... For me (and don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Batman fan) I personally think that he couldn't be that useful to the team. If, hypothetically speaking, Sinestro went up against him alone I think that Bats couldn't defeat him. I know he's a tactical genius, but our human perception (albeit above average in Batman's case) is limited to what we see, what we experience, what we feel and that's all taken from a human point of view..whereas in Sinestro's case, he's one of the greatest Green Lanterns of all and also a being from another world (with a different perception on how everything works), i think that makes him superior to Bats and therefore capable of dispatching him quite easily. There's so much a HUMAN can do, before tiring himself out or getting injured in a way he can't go on...

But I like the idea of the JL going up against the Legion of Doom or Secret Society, I never thought of that. I've always for a long time had this idea of a JL where they're going up against the Appelaxians... But I liked your idea, that would be cool :D

@SlovBoy: @batshrine said:

But Batman is a core member of the League, Marvel has two sets of trinities. They have their Avengers trinity copying the JL's: Thor, Iron Man, and Captain America. And they have their money making trinity: Wolverine, Spiderman, and Hulk. Traditionally te hulk is an avenger, Wolverine is an X-man, and Spiderman is solo. So thats why you didn't need Wolverine or Spiderman in that movie. The JL has a trinity too, Superman, Wonderwoman, and BATMAN. You can't have a JL movie without the trinity. And honestly it would be great too see a martial arts version of Batman for once.

Ever since Burton's movie, every incarnation of Batman has been STIFF. IF they make him a more fluid character, then Batman will work with ease. People can suspend reality during a movie, especially a good one. So Batman could easily be made believable in a movie, and still be grounded. And as for the plot JL is definitely not going White Martian or Darkseid simply because Avengers has Thanos pegged for their next movie and JL would just be a copycat. They are far more likely to do Legion of Doom or Secret Society. Batman is known for his brains, so I wouldn't discount the revamped Batman till you see it. Have faith in the directors to do him right.

Nolan Batman uses Keysi and is in tone of the Martial arts movies of today.

Joel Batman used many style of martial arts and was in tone of the martial arts movies of his time, that was copying Jackie Chan movies from the 80s.

The only crappy one was Burton, that didnt follow the logic of that time, that was Chuck Norris movies.

I belive if they take super villain down or using the whole Lex Luthor as president it could work, also they could give every JLA member their own villain.

Batman vs Deathstroke is a must happen on screen.

Also, they could use some villain to build the Suicide Squad movie.

@tis_blackwater: @r3d_rob1n: Nolan Batman is build as a human, if you go with Comic Book Batman in a movie, people will leave becuase well lets face it, he is to damn overpowered, movies and comic books dont follow the same logic, also people overlook the fact Bruce Wayne plays stupid most of the time(Even when Lucius and Alfred know the truth), but when he is Batman he made a super sonar to find the Joker, it also made a super computer, also overlook the fact he try to use at least 2 styles of Kung Fu on Ras.

Also Tas, take great part of Batman power and made him way more human, comic book Batman is just to damn powerfull to work in a movie, Black Widow and Hawkeye are pretty much side kicks in that movie, Batman isnt a side kick, he is the main event, he is the whole freacking show.

Seriously Batman in the Justice League Movie would seriously limit what the movie would be about.

In my opinion even in the Animated Justice league cartoon Batman was riding a fine line of being cool and potentially being lame fortunately the writers did a terrific balancing act in the Justice League Animation so he remained cool. But alive ACTION BATMAN? in the Justice league? Batman in space? come on that is going to be lame. George Clooney Batman lame. Part of Batman's coolness was the environment he was in Gotham. If they really want to make the movie work they need to replace Bruce Wayne with someone else from the Bat Family. Night-wing comes to mind

The whole point of dressing up in a Bat suit to scare villains and become myth ETC would seem stupid when the Villain is Darkseid LOL

Ya but the likely hood of them bringing Darkseid in to the movie is slim to none! Avengers already did an alien invasion, and they teased Thanos for the next one. Now any comic book fan sure will know Darkseid came first but lets be honest comic book fans aren't the main audience. Justice League canNOT now pull off white martians or Darkseid without seeming like copy cats. So it makes more than sense for the Justice League to go up against the Legion of Doom in some form. President Lex is perfect, but would only work if DC went with how Marvel set up with the JL movie by making individual movies first and tying them all together. Batman going up against super villains is not doubtful, nor strange. I mean lets be honest here he is going up against a Bane in a movie grounded in reality. And Bane has SUPER strength. Granted in Nolanverse it will prolly be toned down. That doesn't mean again that an audience can't suspend reality because lets be honest, any human superhero is just as impossible as a superhuman.

@batshrine: Batman outside of Gotham is not going to transfer well live action. It works in Comics and a bit in Animation but not in live action. Batman outside of Gotham is going to be a very different Batman than the main stream is use to.

Batman, outside of Gotham and in the day light trying to keep up with the rest will look very lame It won't be natural and seem very forced. Batman is the only Street Level hero on the team

The main problem at even getting the movie up and running is if Christian Bale would go back into the Batman role and be willing to share the spotlight with others. I personally think he wouldnt take the part just like the reason ed norton didnt take the hulk part in the avengers (they dont like to share the spotlight) but it would be amazing if they did make the justice league because i do enjoy DC more

@comicdude23 said:

Comic Cap > Movie Cap in power levels btw.

@WDW I agree wholeheartedly! Even if they had him in the movie be all stealthy and stuff would that honestly work? To me it would just seem forced and completely unorganic... Remember, these are aliens with completely different mindsets, maybe they just see through Batman's tricks, tactics and that would make him useless.

@batshrine Ya but the likely hood of them bringing Darkseid in to the movie is slim to none! Avengers already did an alien invasion, and they teased Thanos for the next one. Now any comic book fan sure will know Darkseid came first but lets be honest comic book fans aren't the main audience. Justice League canNOT now pull off white martians or Darkseid without seeming like copy cats.

Honestly... why not? You just tweak the story a little bit and instead of having an alien invasion with those hostile buggers just trying to piledrive the Earth, do it in space on their ship or anywhere else... Don't just have easy-to-dispatch ground troops, introduce some heavy hitters - like Despero, maybe Commander Blanx, etc... The possibilities are endless. Having a ultimate hero team up versus a villians team up would be cool, but at the end of the day I would rather go see a movie where they go up against alien forces.

@SlovBoy: @Jonni_Beretta: @batshrine: @WDW: Who say they need Batman outside of Gotham, with Luthor as president, he can send all the villain heck even see the Suicide Squad, you can bring the other guys into Gotham, also people belive he has to act like Black Widow and Hawkeye even when those guy are side kicks in Avengers, Batman is more like Nick Fury, make him the brain of the whole operation would work better, keep him in Gotham then Luthor send villains for him and he beat the crap of those guys, also remember that all the guys with power have weakness, just make Luthor use them and then Batman can save the day becuase the fact he haves no power = he haves no weakness, also it would help the fact he would act in the shadows.

Make it more of a chess game between the most brilliant minds of DC, heck you can even put Deathstroke as leader of a third party and the moral of the story, is better to have brains that powers.

Also, Bale let Heath take all the credit for TDK that is amazingly based on the Joker, I mean Avengers look like Tony Stark and his amazing friends.

Also no aliens please, if DC makes their movie universe more ground to earth that the Marvel, Batman as a main characters would make sense.

Also just becuase Marvel did it, dont mean DC has to make it.

Nolan Batman just wouldn't work 
 
If anything we'd need someone like Val Kilmer's Batman, one who's a bit more...fantastical  
 
  

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

@SlovBoy: @Jonni_Beretta: @batshrine: @WDW: Who say they need Batman outside of Gotham, with Luthor as president, he can send all the villain heck even see the Suicide Squad, you can bring the other guys into Gotham, also people belive he has to act like Black Widow and Hawkeye even when those guy are side kicks in Avengers, Batman is more like Nick Fury, make him the brain of the whole operation would work better, keep him in Gotham then Luthor send villains for him and he beat the crap of those guys, also remember that all the guys with power have weakness, just make Luthor use them and then Batman can save the day becuase the fact he haves no power = he haves no weakness, also it would help the fact he would act in the shadows.

Make it more of a chess game between the most brilliant minds of DC, heck you can even put Deathstroke as leader of a third party and the moral of the story, is better to have brains that powers.

Also, Bale let Heath take all the credit for TDK that is amazingly based on the Joker, I mean Avengers look like Tony Stark and his amazing friends.

Also no aliens please, if DC makes their movie universe more ground to earth that the Marvel, Batman as a main characters would make sense.

Also just becuase Marvel did it, dont mean DC has to make it.

And I agree with everything you said about Batman Totally. I would like this kind of a story.

No Aliens (Great)

Lex as President (great)

Chess Game (internal Conflicts)

Grittiness ( Great)

Earth Based (GREAT)

I just don't want Batman to monopolies the movie and become the BATGOD I can do anything Batman. I don't want Warner Bros to just insert batman into the movie and think it will be great because of him and not focus on the writing.

Again I totally agree with your post you got good ideas

@SlovBoy: I think Batman can work in justice league movie. But I just think the writing and his portrayal need to be on point. I am hoping they just don't insert Batman in the movie thinking it will be good because of him. I guess that's my worry.

You have some good ideas. I hope the writers can really break down the live action batman and make him remain cool. After all he is my second favorite superhero :P

@The Stegman: Val Kilmer Batman is the second most powerfull one in live action, is actually not as powerfull as Adam West Batman, that is the example of how funny is the idea that Batman always have gadget to everything, not as weak a Burton Batman(This guy need gadget for everything and move like a 80 years old guy).

@WDW: The main problem with JLA as a movie, is that Batman has his own mythology and own fantasy world he can work, take him out and he will suck (The best Batman comic books, always use a more down to earth Batman), is more easy to bring the other heroes into that type of fantasy, that get Batman inside in the other guys fantasy, it would hurt Batman, also Avenger fails in making a emotional connection with many people, Batman is that famous for making emotional connections with the audience, that why sell Batman is way more easy that Superman or Wonder Woman, if you make Batman work as an emotional bridge to the other characters, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman and Green Lantern.

Joss Whedomm talked about the problem with DC was that every DC have his own type of fantasy and they dont share one, for the same working with the Marvel universe as just one universe was way more easy that DC.

Amazingly to this to happen, Batman dont need to get more powerfull, the other guys need to get weaker and more human.

@DeathpooltheT1000: ummm i dont know where you live but everybody knows hawkeye is a regular guy. BW is not. she has taken the russian version of the super soldier, not as good as steve's but still better than normal athlete. and batman is not known for his humanity. hes known for having the right gadget at the right time, simply said PIS.

@KainScion: Everybody in the comic book fanbase, yes, everybody outside, hell no, most of people dont know who Hawkeye was, Black Widow wasnt popular, i mean i heard a bunch of people talking about the fact they didnt have any clue who Hawkeye was.

Batman is famous thanks to the Tas cartoon, The Dark Knight, the movies and video games, those one play with Batman being more human that comic books, Batman is his normal comic book is overpowered, outside is way more human that the rest of characters, what also explain why people hates comic books, character are way to damn powerfull for their own good.

Comic books need to make Batman less powerfull, also, all the other characters use more PIS that Batman, Hawkeye helping was pure PIS, in real life the guy would have die in the first 5 minutes of the final fight, Black Widow would have die in the first 10, Captain America at the end, the only survivor without PIS would be Ironman, Hulk and Thor, still Tony would end so hurt that bye bye to Ironman 3.

Also, people would have hated he Avengers at the end the guy would destroy the economy of the world for all the damage his fight would have caused and all the people that would have died in the fight, also notice it look all those guys are killing those aliens, people would fear them for the fact they so them killing those thing.

I mean Dragon Ball dont teach them to take the fight outside of the city, so they dont kill normal people?

The Avengers movie has more PIS that all the Batman movie franchise, that means, Nolan, Burton, Schumacher and West.

So PIS happens to every character and every storyline.

@DeathpooltheT1000 When you say Batman is too powerful what do you mean by that? I wouldn't call him overpowered, I'd call him competent. He's gotten where he is through dedication and hard work and I can see why he's the most feared being in Gotham. But saying that Batman doesn't get an insane amount of PIS in comics is pushing it... To say that Superman and Wonder Woman have PIS to me is understandable since they are superhuman.. Batman isn't, he's a human and even if he's an master martial artist and an (EARTHLY) genius that doesn't make him an overpowered or an authority on anything. I mean, how would he know what Superman's or GL's weakness is.. Lex Luthor in Superman I said that ''logical deduction is the name of the game'' and Bats is good at that, but here he's going up against superpowered alien beings. He'd have to completely think outside the box, come up with some new stuff, new technology and even that wouldn't guarantee him any success. Granted, he could find out that Kryptonite is harmful to Superman through research and stuff but how the hell would he figure out that the color yellow is GL's weakness.....

I think that this panel in the New 52's Justice League comic, shows us what really could happen in a fight:

Here he is completely at Superman's mercy and he can't do anything about that... And I know he wasn't going to fight him, but he was defending himself and very poorly I might add. And there's also this funny video :D

I'll probably just continue writing here :D The Avengers movie certainly had PIS - especially with the scene where BW grabbed that flying chariot thing... I don't know if BW is enhanced in any way in the MCU, I know she is in the comics but they never mentioned that in the movies... I mean she did do some really freaky shit in the Avengers, but it was nowhere near Captain America (movie) level. And how can you say that she would've died a lot earlier than Bats.. what can he do that they can't?

@SlovBoy: Sorry for all the time i take, but i was doing some things and take me this far to awnser.

People say Batman uses PIS because they notice it more with a normal human, the other guys have being in battles with guys that are smrater, more powerfull and still won, Batman uses less PIS that people want to notice.

To a JLA movie work with less PIS that Avengers it would need.

1. Batman to be the smarter member of the group, smarter that Superman even.

2. Reduce the other guys powers.

3. Reduce Superman powers, Flash has to be faster that Superman, GL has to have better control of energy based powers, Batman and Wonder Woman better fighters, so Superman dont feel so imposible to beat.

4. Give them villains at their level, Avengers isnt an example of a Team Movie, they never work as a team, they work alone to kill the aliens, but never as a team.

5. Make Batman more of a master mind and less of a fighting member, i mean the most dangerous thing Batman has is inside of his head.

6. Make the last villain be beat by the team and not only Superman.

7. The last villain has to be a threat to every single one of the team members.