@johnni_kun It's perfectly fair to bring up competitive points when the narrative is one sided in most of its execution. Everything revolves around Clark. The story, concepts and even the characters. Diana's whole world is Clark in that book. Which I find funny that you don't have a problem with, considering that you said that it was a fault in how she is portrayed in DCAU regarding Batman. But I digress......
Your biggest issue is clearly that you dont know what subjectivity is. Because you dont think Wonder Woman is portrayed equally doesnt mean she isn't. The fact you dont have a problem with how ANY other character is written in Batman's presence shows your bias. I know I have a bias, I admitted my opinion is based on perception, you still hold the delusion that your biased opinion is somehow fact. Theres a big difference in what we are debating, because you still figured havent figured out that your opinion is just that. Just as an example, are you denying that she had better combat feats in the last two books than Superman? Are you denying that Superman was the one fawning over Wondy, and not the other way around? Or are you just trying to continue creating strawman version of my argument?
Again, you don't know that. Batman could very much be forced in a different situation. He could face weaker enemies. Or could be forced with other objectives not relating in what WW is physically doing. This happens most of the in his team ups with heroes, anyways. All you have is assumption with this Batman/WW. That because this is no Batman/WW.
We dont have one, so it is based on assumption, which is based on the historical evidence we do have. Supes has looked like a punk in all the team up books he's had with Batman. So did Green Lantern. So has Lex Luthor and Bizarro. Want me to keep going? My opinion is, if every other character has suffered with Batman, why would I want any more of my favorite characters put on the line by being paired with Batman? And dont argue something I didnt even say, respond to exactly what I am saying.
Everyone is gimped when they are with other Superheroes. That doesn't mean it would weight on to the story and characters to an unpleasant degree. Take Batman/Superman as an example. Obvious Superman doesn't need help, but that is the concept of the book. The Story is still good, and characterization of the character remain intact that are still enjoyably. B/S Stories usual main problem is, characters needing to be there. And the minor instances with Superman, rarely(if that) affect him as a character. They are practically semi canon in their relevance.
This is all subjective as well. How can you expect anyone to debate what basically amounts to you saying "I am enjoying Batman Superman". Uh, ok, have fun reading it, I guess? for what its worth, I loved the first arc, the second arc with Mongul was just ok (it was sort of campy for my taste), and the last one was pretty good, except the Batforce was in full effect. So, cool we compared our notes on how good Superman/Batman is. Back on topic, out of three arcs, Superman has already been made a fool of once. Supes is one of my favorite characters, Wondy is another personal favorite, I dont like seeing Supes get jobbed, but I definitely dont want it to happen to Wonder Woman as well.
Again, it seems like all you can do is throw insults. How do you expect to be taken seriously, when all you do is form your opinion in such a childish matter. I however, do care about these characters; the only difference is I understand the natures of fictional concepts. Something you apparently don't. Every character has a part to play. And if you really cared about the characters being limited then why don't you have a problem with the ones that are not related to Batman? When characters that were not intended in their creation interact with each other, they overlaps in powers and abilities. Superman has to be the strongest, even though Flash has shown being able to handle just as strong as enemies. And yet he's stuck being the "fast guy." Same goes with Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and most of all Captain Marvel.(Shazam) Who was actually shown to be Superman's equal (and possibly superior), yet he was held back (or depowered) to make Superman more relevant in most of their interactions. However, you only see the problem with Batman. That because you don't realize that he's already gimped. He is gimped because he has no Super powers. They are vastly superior to him and this is what you do not understand. There is nothing that writers can do to change that at the end of the day. So, actually they are all limited in some way or another. You just don't want to see it that way. I think before you complain maybe you should try understanding the concepts of these books.
I actually dont think you do understand fictional concepts, as youre confusing fanservice for the sake of a cash grab with the necessities of plot. Id suggest considering the actual "whys" involved, and stop thinking purely from what you like and dislike. You pretend to know a lot about me, but either you havent seen many of my posts or you havent actually read them. For what its worth, ive always said both Superman and Batman should leave the Justice League, and both should be less involved in team-ups. Of course Batman team-ups with Green Arrow, Deathstroke and the like could still happen all the time, and Superman team ups with Wonder Woman, Shazam, MMH, and whoever could still happen frequently, but putting characters who are all so distinct from a power level standpoint together on a regular basis is bad for whichever character is chosen to be sacrificed for the "other" (usually, all characters are free to be sacrificed to Batman). I also think you've built up your own vision of what the DC universe is, and you dont realize that your version of DC isnt the canon one (case in point, you dont like the current Superman, and yet he is the version the actual world builders are using). In a debate with another human being, may I suggest mentally compartmentalizing your preferences from actual facts? Because in every statement, it seems that you have the idea that your version of the universe should be/ is the factual one, when in fact it is not. Arguing what you believe "SHOULD BE" is absolutely fine in my book, but make sure you present it as such, presenting it from an objective standpoint is intellectually dishonest.
The dictator mentally is not a good one to live your life by. I'm sure if it was something negative to you, wouldn't be so willing to just "get with the program." This is also very funny considering that you choose not to “get with the program”, of Batman’s relevance with other heroes. Of course I'm sure that's different........
Um, are you giving me ethical advice? Perhaps keep that to yourself, ok? But anyway, when it comes to a commercial product that is made purely for financial gain, you are subject to the tyranny of the majority, and it is simply a fact of life. When something makes money, the producer will run with it, when something losses money, it is scrapped. Once again, you have a version of the universe you believe wholeheartedly should be the canon version, but nobody else, especially DC, cares. So, if you want to debate what you would prefer, more power to you, but dont be surprised when nothing changes, or when somebody disagrees as they have a different vision of what changes should be made. I would definitely prefer a universe where Batman's involvement is reduced, I will support such a universe as long as I am a comic book fan, but I dont necessarily expect any changes. But of course, when something that to me is the worst imaginable idea (a Batman + Wondy book/relationship), dont be surprised when I express how opposed to such I concept id be. If it offends you, I suggest you dont read my posts, as my opinions havent changed for years, so i doubt they every will. I have hated B/W since the Justice League.
Yeah, it's stupid. But, apparently Johns changed the rules. He also made Superman punked Flash. Flash would be able to dodge Superman’s finger flick before Supes even had a chance to hit him.
Im glad we agree on this at least.
I don't know what you are trying accomplish here. I never said the Superman wasn’t portrayed poorly at times. I said that is wasn't severe as you like to make it seem. Kryptonite is a weakness to Superman. And it always has varied in terms of degree from writer to writer. Do I agree with it? No. Do I understand it? Yes. However, I am impressed with your tactics. When you can't debate the topic, you verge the conversion into a new one. It's a good one and you actually had me here for a second. This argument is on BM/WW, not SM/BM. Other heroes’s interactions matter not in relation to the topic of BM/WW. What matter is how their interactions are portrayed. Actually if we go by their last story of them together, I sure there would be nothing to worry about.
My whole point has been the negative impact Batman has on other characters. I dont know what you think you're debating. I believe Wondy will be horribly treated because every other character is. And I do think it is severe. Which is why ive said it before and i'll say it again: its perception. What in your mind is totally acceptable may not be to anyone else. You might think it was ok for Batman to for example, pull an armbar on Wonder Woman like BP did to Silver Surfer, but I wouldnt (its just an example).
Batman is also usually unless in the final confrontation. Look at that arc you were just talking about. What did Batman do? He didn’t fight Darkseid. (Because that would be hilarious.) All he did was sneak in and saved Superman after he was hit by Omega beams and carried off. He usually just stands there and maybe says some bs. Everyone has a part to play.
Superman was out the entire arc, and Batman saved him. Thats pretty rough, but I rolled with it. That, unlike some other things, seemed like a concession of plot.
No, he is not. No one after reading anything those moments thinks that Batman is any of those things. And neither do you. So stop acting like this how people perceive these characters. Your “I'm Batman” meme logic is bs and you know. Even, Batman fanboys deep down inside know that Batman isn't the greatest hero. They will never admit it, but it's true. All you are doing is basing your anti-BM/WW argument on the idiotic banters of fools. You even make out like it’s a human fault to like Batman. You look down on fans of his with you superiority views, like they are lesser people. And all it does is make you look like the bias one. The ignorant one. The wrong one. So maybe you’re not fit to give opinion on this subject. Or at least maybe you should reevaluate how to handle your opinion in more dignified matter.
EVERYONE IS BIASED! Everyone wants their favorite heroes to look cool. I dont look down on people who are Batman fans, even when they are fans of the honest to goodness BatGod. I do however look down on people with a false sense of enlightenment. The most enlightened thing a person can say they are just human, with human thoughts and opinions. If you dont think im fit to have an opinion, then it's easy, dont reply. You sure seem concerned with everything I have to say for thinking im not fit to have an opinion. A big problem with Batman is one that Neil Gaiman pointed out before me, I will let you do some research, its called: running the asylum. Have fun expanding your opinions.
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