Batman 17 Discussion (Spoilers)

#1 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright lets get an actual discussion of 17 going. Most people have read a scanned copy online already and hopefully you will all still buy it. What is everyone's reaction? I read last night upnto the faces being served on the platter then my ipad battery ran out. I hardly slept. Read the ending this morning and it was exactly what I expected. Would have been so much better if Batman had whacked the shit out of th Joker with that crowbar.

#2 Posted by Ravager4 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

For all the hype... That ended up being a real let down. Nothing really happened when you think about it. Big shocking WTF moment with the platters, turns out to be nothing a few pages later. Joker falls off a cliff, obviously survives. Alfred is perfectly fine.

I'm confused as to what big shocking change was supposed to come out of this.

#3 Posted by JohnnyGat (1561 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't a fan of how the story ended but I admit I enjoyed the pacing of the title. This issue imo had better pacing than the issue before it and although I didn't like the ending storywise as I mentioned before ending the issue with "Ha Ha Ha" in a quiet setting had this pretty nice vibe going for it.

#4 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah the whole faces ripped off thing was awesome I fell asleep last night wondering how the heck Snyder was going to roll the ball with that.

OH NO! It was a joke. Blah.

And the Joker jumping off the cliff was so predictable. Batman should have whacked the shit out of him and left him for dead in the cave and not said anything to the family. Much better ending.

#5 Posted by Markus_Langbourn (388 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow. What a load of crap that was. I mean, I knew Snyder was derivative and incompetent when it came to writing Batman, but wow.

#6 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3514 posts) - - Show Bio

Worst ending ever, it was total shit. I am no longer a fan Snyder, GTFO.

#7 Edited by jon_n7 (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, I stopped enjoying this after issue 13. Issue 13 was awesome but after that it all went downhill. The only thing this story did/ or attempt to do was to show Batman that the family makes him stronger. Other than that nothing happened and I don't think we needed a story like this to show that. They didn't even give a legit reason for him cutting his face off. It seems like Snyder plated a lot of seeds throughout but eh really not feeling this crossover or arc, very disappointing. (Didn't even get more Jock art!) The good things were the art and the cliffhanger ending was clever. Snyder did say he wants to come back to the joker but really too much hype that wasn't lived up to.

#8 Posted by mccoym2 (18 posts) - - Show Bio

I just disappointed there was no real change in the end. I was shocked when everyone had the bloody bandages on their faces, and excited. Imagine the trauma to the bat family that could have resulted from this event if they Joker really had taken the heroes alternate egos away. It would really have added to the point that Joker does not care about who is underneath.

#9 Posted by entropy_aegis (13596 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

For all the hype... That ended up being a real let down. Nothing really happened when you think about it. Big shocking WTF moment with the platters, turns out to be nothing a few pages later. Joker falls off a cliff, obviously survives. Alfred is perfectly fine. I'm confused as to what big shocking change was supposed to come out of this.

Nothing happening was the BEST THING IMO.It was either this or some other crappy outcome such as Joker being Bruce's long lost cousin or Alfred wearing Joker's face, or some character dying a cheap death glad that never happened.

Overall I've found Snyder's Batman to be average and predictable,it's a generic Batman book that utilizes every overused tropes and cliches in Batman stories,this issue was the literal manifestation of that.So yeah ok issue overall but this will be a turning point for a lot of people.

#10 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

The only reason people are going nuts over Snyder Batman honestly has nothing to do with Snyder I am assuming. Capullo draws a bad-ass Batman. Look at issue 2 of Batman zipping around on his motorcycle beating the crap out of everyone. The amazing artwork is pretty much the only selling point left.

And hmmm... I think DC knows it just look at Snyder's next book: Snyder and Jim Lee.

Death of the Family was disappointing and the next arc with Harper Row is going to blow because surprise suprise Damian is going to get whacked in Batman Inc. 8 and Harper Row is going to be the next Robin.

:,(

#11 Posted by xtremekidx (576 posts) - - Show Bio

Am i the only one who found the title a good read...sure i was expecting way more but this is by no means a bad comic...

#12 Edited by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtremekidx said:

Am i the only one who found the title a good read...sure i was expecting way more but this is by no means a bad comic...

Batman #412 had a better story.

#13 Edited by jon_n7 (20 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly wanted Damien to die. It wouldn't be just for shock it would've fit the story right. Taking something that kinda really is a part of him (Batman) would've been a boiling point. Plus they can always bring him back with the lazarus pit and would've been a good set up for an epic (non-batman Inc.) Ra's (comeback)/Talia/joker arc!

#14 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

@jon_n7 said:

I honestly wanted Damien to die. It wouldn't be just for shock it would've fit the story right. Taking something that kinda really is a part of him (Batman) would've been a boiling point. Plus they can always bring him back with the lazarus pit and would've been a good set up for an epic (non-batman Inc.) Ra's (comeback)/Talia/joker arc!

Pretty sure that's what's going to happen in INC next week.

#15 Posted by gridde (91 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

For all the hype... That ended up being a real let down. Nothing really happened when you think about it. Big shocking WTF moment with the platters, turns out to be nothing a few pages later. Joker falls off a cliff, obviously survives. Alfred is perfectly fine. I'm confused as to what big shocking change was supposed to come out of this.

Isn't it still an issue that Joker knows about their identities? Or was that a lie? I mean, he obviously now knows who Nightwing, Red Robin, Red Hood and Batgirl are, but it was never completely confirmed that he knows about Bats too (since the end of #17 implies he simply doesn't care, but is vague as to whether he actually knows).

Regardless, I liked this arc. It wasn't the game-changing event DC hyped it to be, but it was a very cool return to the scene for Joker, with plenty of awesome moments. The end was definitely anti-climactic (with no good explanation for why he took his own face off, and no reason given for why he didn't cut off their faces or do anything more drastic), but it was overall a good look at the relationship between Joker and Batman, as well as providing some interesting new points to consider when discussing Joker's own history and motivations (his whole shtick about killing the family to make Bats stronger, coupled with him freaking out when confronted with information about his own family and identity).

#16 Posted by Mighty Thorion (797 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtremekidx said:

Am i the only one who found the title a good read...sure i was expecting way more but this is by no means a bad comic...

No you aren't - I enjoyed the whole arc including the fact that no one got killed or maimed by the Joker in this issue. What some people might be missing is the psychological impact this arc will have on members of the Bat - family and I guess Snyder and the other Bat writers will be exploring this in months to come.

#17 Posted by Hugebatmanfan (8 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with a lot of this, I mean sure there were some let dwns, but if you pick out all the good parts and re read the series (not so much tie ins haha!) I think it was simply amazing!!

Any way here are my pros and cons about 17! :)

pros: SPOILERS!!!: Alfred being jokerized, the whole "why dont you just kill me speech" by Joker (including the "you left the door open hoping I would kill this family of yours" ), Batman threatening to kill joker and bluffing about knowing his identity, BRUCE VISITING JOKER IN HIS CEL!?! :0 These are like the biggest things to ever happen in a joker story! For the first time it showed the joker knew all along who batman was but just didnt care! Thats pretty epic!! The fire part was also cool and is it just me or was that cat a nod to the dark knight (fat guy with bomb in him)- OH!! And the bat at the start was amazing, reminding bruce of basically how he became batman and how he and joker had same experience!!

cons: The platters :( I thought the face thing was really cool and totally unexpected! Imagine what the next individual issues would be like with the team having to wear full face masks covering their scars! Or if the joker switched their faces or turned them upside down (ok.. maybe a bit extreme lol!xD) but the fact that they were fakes isnt the joker at ALL!!! What was the point of them being fake haha!?!?!! Alfred not dying! -ok, jokerized was still awesome but I thought his death would surely drive bruce to a complete turning point! And I guess the final showdown, I really wanted to hear bruce say joker's real name haha! Plus I thought Joker falling down into the waterfall wasn't very original hehe! Oh well! Another con was that batman had a bomb, surely joker would've completely disarmed him b4 the dinner!

Theories of mine: I reckon the real reason why the family's faces weren't truly cut off and that alfred didnt die may have actually been because Joker was afraid that Batman would actually KILL HIM haha! I mean really, if thoes happened, Joker would've died by batmans hands no question about it! Think about it, with out those happening Batman came close and was threatening Joker, and Joker was TERRIFIED, reminding him that his family was in danger and to go rescue them instead of dealing with him! Joker wouldnt do all of this just to have batman kill him! And last joker is still alive (fly on screen at end! )

Q's: So were they in the batcave in the end?! I was confused!

#18 Posted by MrShway88 (653 posts) - - Show Bio

@xtremekidx said:

Am i the only one who found the title a good read...sure i was expecting way more but this is by no means a bad comic...

I enjoyed the issue but I feel that many fans were expecting more and were let down. If this arc didn't have some much hype and wasn't a crossover, I believe many people would have enjoyed it more.

#19 Posted by MurieC16 (68 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: The shocking change is that the Joker won. In the end it shows how the family now has lost respect, or feels distant from Bruce.

#20 Posted by redhoodnet (153 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved this issue and to be honest the ending gave me the impression that the Joker had won. He has destroyed the family. They are all just trying to get away from him at the end of this issue. To me this is the first time where the Joker won in every respect. He destroyed the Family and then he got away.

#21 Posted by Ravager4 (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

@MurieC16: Except the Joker didn't win. Batman realized that his family is what makes him stronger and only increased his bond with them, while the others have no real reason to lose respect in him at all. As other people have said, they've been through worse, and it's not like Batman has done anything out of the ordinary here by withholding information from them. They might be distant for a few days, but to think that this event is going to forever change their view of him and drive them away permanently is foolish.

#22 Posted by MurieC16 (68 posts) - - Show Bio

It should of ended with Bruce going down to study the chemicals in the Batcave. As he enters the the chemical in the computer he notices a blood trail and follow it. As he reaches the end of the trail....he notices at the end of the trail......on the container with the joker card......Jokers face is pasted to the glass! With the final panel focusing on Bruce's face as he has a little, but noticeable grin.....with the Ha symbol clearly visible in the background...........BAM!

#23 Posted by MurieC16 (68 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Well it just started, so there might be something later on that shows how distant the bat family has grew apart.

#24 Posted by roboadmiral (513 posts) - - Show Bio

I was really enjoying it until the Joker made Batman drop him at the waterfall. Everything after that was confusing. Did Batman shout "No!" because the Joker was going to die or was he angry that he didn't get to fulfill the "Everything that happens to you tonight happens by my hand" line? At first I thought he was going to kill Joker, but then it seemed like he was going to psychologically destroy Joker by telling him he knew who he was, but then at the end there's the computer screen still reading "Identity Unknown" so was it a bluff, if so what was his plan? What was he going to do to finish Joker for good? I found this issue's explanation of why Batman doesn't kill the Joker ("I truly believe that if I did it, if I killed Joker, Gotham would just send me someone worse") to be as half-assed as every other explanation I've heard. Like I said, I've enjoyed Snyder's run on Batman immensely thus far, but I am a bit annoyed that Death of the Family has left me mostly with unanswerable questions.

Also, I like the idea of that Bat-family drifting apart. I think there's too many people. I like my Batman as a lone ranger, but maybe that's just me.

#25 Posted by gotwillpower (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@roboadmiral said:

I was really enjoying it until the Joker made Batman drop him at the waterfall. Everything after that was confusing. Did Batman shout "No!" because the Joker was going to die or was he angry that he didn't get to fulfill the "Everything that happens to you tonight happens by my hand" line? At first I thought he was going to kill Joker, but then it seemed like he was going to psychologically destroy Joker by telling him he knew who he was, but then at the end there's the computer screen still reading "Identity Unknown" so was it a bluff, if so what was his plan? What was he going to do to finish Joker for good? I found this issue's explanation of why Batman doesn't kill the Joker ("I truly believe that if I did it, if I killed Joker, Gotham would just send me someone worse") to be as half-assed as every other explanation I've heard. Like I said, I've enjoyed Snyder's run on Batman immensely thus far, but I am a bit annoyed that Death of the Family has left me mostly with unanswerable questions.

Also, I like the idea of that Bat-family drifting apart. I think there's too many people. I like my Batman as a lone ranger, but maybe that's just me.

I liked the issue as well, but I was also kind of confused by that waterfall scene. Why would he bluff about that? Did he predict that Joker would kill himself if he whispered it in his ear? Maybe he was just bluffing that he was going to kill Joker "by [his] hand," and instead he wanted Joker to kill himself.

However, if Batman really did want to kill the Joker, it will be interesting to see what happens the next time they meet (I think we can safely assume Joker's not dead). Maybe now he'll finally be able to kill the Joker? I'm not sure if the Joker has died in comics before, but if he hasn't I think it's possible that Snyder might write that story arc.

#26 Posted by roboadmiral (513 posts) - - Show Bio

@gotwillpower: Yeah, but making Joker kill himself rather than doing it with his own hands doesn't seem like something Batman would do. It would feel like a cop-out so that he could say he technically didn't kill Joker. One also has to wonder if that's the case why he shouted "No!" as the Joker fell.

I very much think it should happen, but it shouldn't be an ambiguous thing. Batman has to decide that it's gone on for too long and that the price has been to high and knowingly and consciously choose to end it.

#27 Edited by havoc1201 (475 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

@MurieC16: Except the Joker didn't win. Batman realized that his family is what makes him stronger and only increased his bond with them, while the others have no real reason to lose respect in him at all. As other people have said, they've been through worse, and it's not like Batman has done anything out of the ordinary here by withholding information from them. They might be distant for a few days, but to think that this event is going to forever change their view of him and drive them away permanently is foolish.

remember that when the Joker had the Bat family tied up and Batman was passed out the joker told all of them secrets about themselves and bruce i would guess, so that is where i think the disband of the family will last, and all the solo writers have said that the effects of DOTF will last a very long time in each characters solo books. I think time will show just how big a impact DOTF really has on the family, right now it does not seem that major but i think it will grow with each characters struggle with whatever the Joker told them.

@roboadmiral said:

@gotwillpower: Yeah, but making Joker kill himself rather than doing it with his own hands doesn't seem like something Batman would do. It would feel like a cop-out so that he could say he technically didn't kill Joker. One also has to wonder if that's the case why he shouted "No!" as the Joker fell.

I very much think it should happen, but it shouldn't be an ambiguous thing. Batman has to decide that it's gone on for too long and that the price has been to high and knowingly and consciously choose to end it.

i really think Bruce yelled NO because he was wanted the Joker to end by his hands he even saved the Joker from falling of the cliff and said not by accident so i feel Batman was going to end the Joker this time.

#28 Posted by consolemaster001 (4473 posts) - - Show Bio

I was left confused and dissapointed

#29 Posted by JamesKM716 (1992 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

For all the hype... That ended up being a real let down. Nothing really happened when you think about it. Big shocking WTF moment with the platters, turns out to be nothing a few pages later. Joker falls off a cliff, obviously survives. Alfred is perfectly fine. I'm confused as to what big shocking change was supposed to come out of this.

Exactly! Why is the family so mad? and if Joker doesn't care about the identities, then why did he target Bab's mom, and Raya?

#30 Posted by havoc1201 (475 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716: its not that they are mad at Bruce, the Joker told all of them a secret that effects each one of them we do not know what he told them but i am sure it will come up in their solo books, each character is trying to deal with the truths they now know and their trust in Bruce is shaken what the Joker told them could very well be bull crap but it might have a little truth in it to the point that the character have to change the way they see the Family. In the coming months is were we will see the effects this arch reall brings IMO

#31 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

story was bad. Ending was bad. Shows Snyder doesn't understand Batman or any of the Bat family characters. Explains why he leans so heavily on throwing setting details at you rather than telling a story.

#32 Posted by ltbrd (552 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people are being unduly harsh on Synder for this story. It was exactly the type of Joker story that was needed to bring Joker back into the Bat titles. Was the ending too preachy? Absolutely. But the story itself was a classic piece of Joker story. The modern Joker has always struck me in a very similar vein to Zoom in that what the Joker does has nothing to do with beating Batman but in simply giving a reason for his own existence in the same way Zoom believes his mission is to make the Flash (Wally West) a stronger hero. The Joker can't exist without Batman and thus will never put Batman in a situation that he can't get out of simply so that they can begin the game again. But that doesn't mean Batman (and in this case the entire Bat Family) doesn't go through hell in the process. That's what I think this arc captured perfectly. The simple act of Joker being Joker for no more reason than that's simply who and what he is. What tarnished the entire thing, IMO, was the last pages after Joker's fall. The idea of Batman about to tell Joker his true identity fits perfectly into the game. Its a valid move on Batman's part to end this particular session. But that's where Synder should have ended it. He should not have had those panels in Arkham. Its okay if Joker knows who Batman is (and conversely I do think Bruce should know who he is as it would tie into the 52 mini-series where its clear in one issue of Tim and Dick talking about the Joker that Bruce does know his identity but has never revealed it to anyone else) because that's not the point of the game. Its no fun to go after Bruce Wayne. Only after Batman. So following Alfred's revival it would have fit to simply have Bruce hand him the bell, leave the room, then get the notes/calls from everyone to notify him they weren't coming to meet, and finally get the "Ha" on the computer screen. The Joker would be back and the Bat family would have been "killed" by the experience (at least for a bit) as each deals with whatever the Joker told them. Batman is once more alone, for the most part as Damian is still his partner, and things are back to the way the Joker prefers them for awhile.

But in total I thought the arc did what it needed to do to re-establish the Joker and remind everyone of the relationship he and Batman have, which is completely different then any other nemesis relationship in comics. The "identity unknown" on the computer does not mean Bruce isn't aware of his true identity but re-affirms the fact that there are some secrets Bruce keeps solely to himself and will never place in the computer or any other file, which is something that will constantly drive others away from him even if only for a time.

Synder just took the ending too far. He wanted to show Batman as already having an answer when the story would have been far more powerful if Batman didn't have one when it came to the Joker. It would have been a far more powerful Batman story to show Batman playing a wild card guess at how much Joker knew, and more importantly wanted to know, than already having the answer to that question. Synder got caught up in the mystique that Batman is always prepared, and that led to a disappointing and dull ending because the majority of us are tired of Batman always having the answer or already having planned for the ending. For as much crap as people give modern Superman story arcs, one aspect I like about them is that often Superman just wins by blind luck, chance, or simply the fact that his powers carry him through rather than actually having a plan. Batman stories too often fly in the face of a popular military quote "no plans survives first contact with the enemy" (paraphrased there a bit) by making us believe Batman had everything figured out ten steps ago in order to justify how he can keep winning with no superpowers. That easy answer is a trap and, IMO, kills the ending of too many story arcs. This one included. Think it would have had much greater impact if Batman had one by a lucky, out of right field, guess/move that kept everyone safe but couldn't change the break-up of the Bat Family. It may not have been epic, but it would have been a great change of pace to the ending of a Batman story arc.

#33 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@ltbrd said:

I think people are being unduly harsh on Synder for this story. It was exactly the type of Joker story that was needed to bring Joker back into the Bat titles.

Joker didn't need to be brought back prior to snyder starting his plans to make this arch... This has been in the works since the beginning planning stages of new 52... more than 2 years went into to this and Joker "disappeared" specifically for this story.

As to your idea that it had to "remind" people of the Batman/Joker relationship... that's nonsense in general but in the specific it is also so due to the fact that Snyder got that relationship so wrong to begin with.

#34 Posted by Joelislegend (215 posts) - - Show Bio

@consolemaster001 said:

I was left confused and dissapointed

Reread the entire series as a whole it changed my mind about a lot of things.

#35 Edited by jon_n7 (20 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joelislegend: Yeah, but INC feels like pre-52 continuity. Speaking of, did you catch that major spoiler for next weeks INC on twitter? It has me hyped!

#36 Posted by SupBatz (1466 posts) - - Show Bio

I did enjoy the ending. And I'm glad that Snyder didn't pull anything crazy like Alfred being permanently Jokerized or anyone dying.

That being said, it felt a bit unfinished. I mean, if Joker doesn't know who the Bat-family members are, how did he know to kidnap Alfred or Barbara's mother?

There were some great moments but I feel like Snyder ended off without finishing a lot of the things he should have addressed.

I did like the more subtle "death of the family" though. I thought that was handled rather well.

#37 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

I freaking loved it.

#38 Posted by snyderman567 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

Worst ending ever, it was total shit. I am no longer a fan Snyder, GTFO.

There is so much butthurt in this thread.

#39 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@SupBatz said:

I did enjoy the ending. And I'm glad that Snyder didn't pull anything crazy like Alfred being permanently Jokerized or anyone dying.

That being said, it felt a bit unfinished. I mean, if Joker doesn't know who the Bat-family members are, how did he know to kidnap Alfred or Barbara's mother?

There were some great moments but I feel like Snyder ended off without finishing a lot of the things he should have addressed.

I did like the more subtle "death of the family" though. I thought that was handled rather well.

Those are simply tricks and explained easily

Alfred is connected to Bruce Wayne who finances Batman Inc.

Nightwing showed up everywhere Hayley's Circus did as Joker pointed out

Attack on Barbara Gordon was an attack on Commissioner Gordon

Jason Todd and Tim Drake's stuff were both cons... Simple as that

Damian's was simply an attack on what would be perceived by anyone. Damian has called Batman father on a number of occasions and it wouldn't take much for Joker to pick up on this or the hostility he has towards the others.

This being the case most of it was just happenstance and verbal trickery. It more shows the weakness of the idea that the Bat Family's identities are so hard to figure out since all the attacks were directed at people who would be commonly associated with Batman in the public eye or people who had a pattern of drawing the bat family out by being nearby them. Really all of it was based on little "secret" information... being that the only uncommon thing to have known about is Damian being Batman's son.

#40 Posted by SupBatz (1466 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: Taken separately those explanations would be fine. It's just all of them occurring at once is too coincidental. I was hoping Snyder would at least attempt to use some explanation for how Joker could have known to do all of those things to each Bat-family member while still not knowing their identities.

That being said, I think Snyder did a good job all around. Certain plot points - such as the faces under the platters could've used a few more panels of explanation and discussion (just something as simple as Joker saying he crafted the faces himself all to play a big joke on Batman could've gone a long way).

But I digress. I give the arc as a whole a 7/10 (though I do plan to re-read the whole arc at once at some point so that may influence my opinion).

#41 Posted by entropy_aegis (13596 posts) - - Show Bio

@JamesKM716 said:

@Ravager4 said:

For all the hype... That ended up being a real let down. Nothing really happened when you think about it. Big shocking WTF moment with the platters, turns out to be nothing a few pages later. Joker falls off a cliff, obviously survives. Alfred is perfectly fine. I'm confused as to what big shocking change was supposed to come out of this.

Exactly! Why is the family so mad? and if Joker doesn't care about the identities, then why did he target Bab's mom, and Raya?

Lack of writer coordination,the Batgirl and Nightwing issues made it clear that he knew their identities.

#42 Posted by tomlikesfries (4519 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joelislegend said:

@xtremekidx said:

Am i the only one who found the title a good read...sure i was expecting way more but this is by no means a bad comic...

Batman #412 had a better story.

LOL, I remember reading that, and it wasn't that bad...

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