So I just finished Batman #13, and while I thought the issue was good, I'm struggling to understand why this was considered a masterpiece by most people who read it. Also, I heard that this was a revolutionary, never before done story of the Joker. I honestly didn't think it was that unique. Again I didn't dislike it, just didn't think it eclipsed Black Mirror as far as Snyder goes. Although, the back story is the best I've ever read.

LOL, this isn't really much of a surprise, Batman's always been overrated...

I am going to give it a chance, I said it was good. And where did I write spoilers.

I thought it was perfect and unique

its all about the tension the Joker brings in my opinion

he one of his most realistic forms yet, he has Gordon on egg shells form the start

its like Se7en the comic

@Funrush: See I'm not trying to pile on cause it's your opinion, but I didn't feel any suspense until the end, I did like the cliffhanger.

i agree scott snyder is overrated as fuck and it won't be long until he becomes another asshole like geoff johns

You know every time something truly perfect surfaces there are always naysayers.........just saying :P

Seriously though while it is a bit overrated its only by a bit and with how highly it's regarded that's saying something

Meh, I found issue 13 to be entertaining and rock-solid. I think it's way too soon to call it a masterpiece though. At the end of the day, this story won't be judged on a single issue.

Has anyone else noticed though that a lot people who talk bad about Snyder are big Morrison fans? Frankly, I've never particularly enjoyed Morrison's run on Batman. Parts of B&R were good, but too often I find Morrison's stuff to be convoluted and self-indulgent. I prefer my Batman without all the weird time-travel and "Zur-en-arrh" references. However, if you dig that sort of thing, then I guess I can understand the sentiment that Snyder isn't "deep" enough.

I really think this was Snyder's strongest work on the charecter and I also believe Death of the Family will go down in history as one of the best batman storylines ever!

I can't say it was a masterpiece simply because I have no idea what a comic book "masterpiece" is. I do think it was interesting, because Snyder is playing it up as the beginning of one of the biggest Joker stories of all time. I doubt he would imply that and then do something like the Court of Owls, where Batman gets beat up really bad and makes a dramatic comeback. I assume that he'll really do something that will affect issues in the long run, like reveal Batman's secret identity to the Joker. That's why I really liked this issue.

By the way, I totally agree about the backstory. Best one of all time.

I just read the issue and i gotta say... man that was awesome! seriously i can't even find a single point that i didn't liked. I'm not saying that it's the best stuff i've ever read, but it's defenitely an amazingly written comic with incredible artwork. So even if Batman was often enough hyped in the past, this time in, my opinion, it lifes totally up to it.

I think that killing too many cops is unnecessary.

opinions..and taste.. <- basic answer to every time "overrated"AND "underrated" gets thrown around

Haven't read 13 yet, still has to arrive through the mail.. but i really liked the court of owls. Wasn't the "best story arc evaaa" but it was a great start for a reboot, considering other series did much, much worse.

I really liked Issue 13 but I'll reserve judgement until we see more of the story.

I don't think anyone is overrating it, Rather people were just excited after reading it to know it was the start of something awesome to come., it was definitely a great issue to kick off jokers return and essspecially that its going to trancend through all the bat books with joker as the main villain with a sinister purpose is enough to get even the casual batman reader excited..

Howver i have seen some people say this is the best batman issue eveer and i do not agree with that. that claim is just toooo difficult when you take account all the batman issues over the past 70 years.

I gave the issue 4.5/5. i would have given it a full 5.5 but i felt the back up could've been better, maybe have a better way to introduce harley or SOMETHING joker has been doing before his return.

So yaa GREAT issue no doubt. Now if someoen is talking about the best Bat issue of the new 52? then yaa this is at least top 3. Snyder and Capullo are a great combo for this book and i hope to see more awesomeness for a loong time.

If you're getting the feeling that a lot of people are praising it, saying it's some great work... yes they are overrating it.

It's a 6, maybe 7, out of 10. It's above average, but I don't really see anything that great about it.

I much preferred Batgirl 13 over Batman 13

Wow, not only was it not "great" of the DC 8 titles i read this week it is the 2nd worst imo...though from worst to second worst is a long jump

@Reignmaker said:

Meh, I found issue 13 to be entertaining and rock-solid. I think it's way too soon to call it a masterpiece though. At the end of the day, this story won't be judged on a single issue.

Has anyone else noticed though that a lot people who talk bad about Snyder are big Morrison fans? Frankly, I've never particularly enjoyed Morrison's run on Batman. Parts of B&R were good, but too often I find Morrison's stuff to be convoluted and self-indulgent. I prefer my Batman without all the weird time-travel and "Zur-en-arrh" references. However, if you dig that sort of thing, then I guess I can understand the sentiment that Snyder isn't "deep" enough.

I really love both writers for their respective styles. One's down to earth, the other's batshit nuts. It's great contrast.

I can't say it was a masterpiece simply because I have no idea what a comic book "masterpiece" is. I do think it was interesting, because Snyder is playing it up as the beginning of one of the biggest Joker stories of all time. I doubt he would imply that and then do something like the Court of Owls, where Batman gets beat up really bad and makes a dramatic comeback. I assume that he'll really do something that will affect issues in the long run, like reveal Batman's secret identity to the Joker. That's why I really liked this issue.

I much preferred Batgirl 13 over Batman 13

@Reignmaker: I've noticed that too. To each his own I guess, Didn't stop me from enjoying this month's issue.

@dmkicksballs13: Sources on the claims? It's impossible to refute or explain if there's no actual sources. That's "beating a straw man" when you set up an opposing argument that's hazy and easily knocked over.

Look, Batman is a popular character and Snyder and crew are hot commodities at the moment. They're building off momentum of a very successful first story arc (both in sales and critically) so it's only natural that people would be enthusiastic about the next story. If you weren't jumping up and down with joy, that's ok. If you hated it, that's ok too. But the fact of the matter is that this book is very hot at the moment and is going to attract some cache.

@Yai_Inn: Out of everyone you mentioned the Joker, the al Ghuls, Bane (probably), and Hush(if he still exists) know his identity. Harley never has, the Riddler knew at one point then lost his memory, Catwoman no longer knows and Red Hood isnt a villain. Only a few members of the Court of Owls could possibly know his secret and even then they were all killed by the end with only his supposed brother Lincoln March/ Thomas Wayne Jr. left who actually knows.

@Yai_Inn said:

@gotwillpower said:

I can't say it was a masterpiece simply because I have no idea what a comic book "masterpiece" is. I do think it was interesting, because Snyder is playing it up as the beginning of one of the biggest Joker stories of all time. I doubt he would imply that and then do something like the Court of Owls, where Batman gets beat up really bad and makes a dramatic comeback. I assume that he'll really do something that will affect issues in the long run, like reveal Batman's secret identity to the Joker. That's why I really liked this issue.

I'd assume he already knows it based on how the issue ends. I'm beginning to question what's the point of Bruce Wayne having a secret identity. I mean Joker, Catwoman, Riddler, Hush, Redhood, Ra's, Talia, Bane, Court of Owls, Harley.. I'm sure there's a few I'm missing ... all know who he is. That secret would have to get out to everyone eventually.

I also think that the ending of 13 means his secret identity is revealed, but there's always the possibility that Joker just felt like attacking Bruce Wayne's butler (not knowing Bruce Wayne is Batman). I think this could lead to Batman's revealing of his identity to the world (just like he did in pre-52). Are you sure that all of those people know that Bruce Wayne is Batman though? I thought Catwoman's knowledge became a retcon (and thus Hush and Riddler, right?) in the New 52. Then it's only Bane, Talia/Ra's, and the Court of Owls. I don't count Redhood because he's basically a part of the Bat-family. Court of Owls could be a problem, but not so far.

I don't want Bruce to give up his secret identity, but if that's what will happen then I would love Dick Grayson or Tim Drake as Batman!

I think the issue is not worth 5 out of 5. its just a first part of an overall story and its not perfect. Batman is overrated and the issue while Good, was not great im still waiting to see how Joker will manipulate batman to choosing to let Joker hurt someone versus giving up his secret Identity.

@gotwillpower said:

@Yai_Inn said:

@gotwillpower said:

I can't say it was a masterpiece simply because I have no idea what a comic book "masterpiece" is. I do think it was interesting, because Snyder is playing it up as the beginning of one of the biggest Joker stories of all time. I doubt he would imply that and then do something like the Court of Owls, where Batman gets beat up really bad and makes a dramatic comeback. I assume that he'll really do something that will affect issues in the long run, like reveal Batman's secret identity to the Joker. That's why I really liked this issue.

I'd assume he already knows it based on how the issue ends. I'm beginning to question what's the point of Bruce Wayne having a secret identity. I mean Joker, Catwoman, Riddler, Hush, Redhood, Ra's, Talia, Bane, Court of Owls, Harley.. I'm sure there's a few I'm missing ... all know who he is. That secret would have to get out to everyone eventually.

I also think that the ending of 13 means his secret identity is revealed, but there's always the possibility that Joker just felt like attacking Bruce Wayne's butler (not knowing Bruce Wayne is Batman). I think this could lead to Batman's revealing of his identity to the world (just like he did in pre-52). Are you sure that all of those people know that Bruce Wayne is Batman though? I thought Catwoman's knowledge became a retcon (and thus Hush and Riddler, right?) in the New 52. Then it's only Bane, Talia/Ra's, and the Court of Owls. I don't count Redhood because he's basically a part of the Bat-family. Court of Owls could be a problem, but not so far.

I don't want Bruce to give up his secret identity, but if that's what will happen then I would love Dick Grayson or Tim Drake as Batman!

It's not stated that Bane knows who he is, but it is stated that Joker knows who he is and set up Jason to become Robin...

@Durakken: Is it really stated in the comics? I didn't know that. So Joker planned to have Jason as Robin, and he's known all this time? That's why he killed him?

@gotwillpower said:

@Durakken: Is it really stated in the comics? I didn't know that. So Joker planned to have Jason as Robin, and he's known all this time? That's why he killed him?

It's in Red Hood and the Outlaws 0. They first tell it from Jason perspective and then as the back up it's Joker's. Still no clue why Joker killed him other than "it's a joke" or some such nonsense. As much as Lobdell messed up Tim origin story to "make it fit" he should have really taken a hacksaw to that horrible origin story.

@Reignmaker: You are not alone in your Morrison frustration. I had a whole forum post about him. http://www.comicvine.com/batman/29-1699/morrison-ruined-damian-waynes-origin-story/92-635560/

@Durakken said:

If you're getting the feeling that a lot of people are praising it, saying it's some great work... yes they are overrating it.

It's a 6, maybe 7, out of 10. It's above average, but I don't really see anything that great about it.

I much preferred Batgirl 13 over Batman 13

Your joking right? Haha. Batgirl was garbage compared to Batman 13, they are not even in the same league. Batgirl is a second tier book, Batman is A-list. Scott Snyder and Batman is DC's most popular and well reviewed book for a reason. Batman 13 was creepy, and not to mention the story progression and reveal at the end there, where Joker is beating Alfred with a hammer (thereby revealing that Joker knows Batman's secret identity, and is going to use it to attack people close to him) Something that is that monumentous, and you say, oh it's a 6/10, Batgirl fighting unknown loser villian Knightfall was better. You couldn't be more wrong.

@dannymalt: Your argument is

Batman is A-list, Snyder is popular, Joker!, it was creepy, and there was a reveal.

And this is how I see that...

So?

So is Justin Beiber and Twilight.

Not the Joker any of us have actually known. Snyder actually points it out that he is different. And while I could imagine that Joker could what he did, not out of nowhere like that.

It wasn't creepy. It was just more pitifully bad horror writing that we've been getting out of all the "new versions" of Batman's rogue's gallery.

It wasn't a reveal.

@Durakken said:

@dannymalt: Your argument is

Batman is A-list, Snyder is popular, Joker!, it was creepy, and there was a reveal.

And this is how I see that...

So?

So is Justin Beiber and Twilight.

Not the Joker any of us have actually known. Snyder actually points it out that he is different. And while I could imagine that Joker could what he did, not out of nowhere like that.

It wasn't creepy. It was just more pitifully bad horror writing that we've been getting out of all the "new versions" of Batman's rogue's gallery.

It wasn't a reveal.

Justin Bieber and Twilight = Batman 13? What comparison are you grasping at straws to make there? I think the Joker, Scott Snyder is presenting is very true to Joker's character, I don't get how you think he's not, and I think the Joker could have definitely figured out Batman's identity, and it's about damn time really. While it may seem out of nowhere, I am sure all will be revealed in time. I'm surprised to hear that people think Scott Snyder is overrated, he's doing one of the best Batman runs in years in my opinion, and after navigating Morrison's confusing mess, I love that Scott Snyder has been given lead on Batman, and gets to shape the status quo of all the other Batbooks.

Also because I'm a big fan of reading IGN's comic reviews, they gave Batman 13 a 9.7/10! Anyway, you stick with Batgirl, if you find it so much better.

@entropy_aegis said:

@gotwillpower said:

@Durakken: Is it really stated in the comics? I didn't know that. So Joker planned to have Jason as Robin, and he's known all this time? That's why he killed him?

It's the new 52 crap,everything happens to be a conspiracy,next they'll tell us that Joker set up Batman with Talia so that they could have Damian.

Absurdity has been taken to whole new levels.

They already did that with Jason Todd lol

Start at 3:11

@Dernman: LOL perfect, just perfect......much like Batman #13 :P