I think Batgirl has more potential as a crime fighter than Batman

Batman trained for years in criminal studies and martial arts

whereas, Batgirl who is around 10 years younger, is almost at the same level as Batman

Yet, Batman never really trained her, she is self-made athlete and detective whose skills nearly rival those of Batman

So I think that, if Batgirl were the same age as Batman, she'd be better than him

Eh, I don't see it.

Seriously?

Hum...that's very very debatable, to say the least...Batman is far ahead of Babs in every aspect, minus intelect/detective skills...i guess that one could argue that (if) Babs had Bruce's desire to master more and more different martial arts styles, and to learn about many other stuff, plus having the money to buy weapons, and to buy stuff to make powerfull suits, etc...then, she would be about the same as Batman...but this type of (if) something, scenarios, are a bit tricky...there's alot of variables.

Also, even in personality, Bruce and Babs are very different...they both have incredible will-power, yes, but they see things differently, Babs as Gotham's main vigilant, would make different decisions, than the ones that Batman made, in many instances...i don't think that they can be compared.

As for, "who's better?", well, Batman is the best, but i guess that a (what if) scenario, could always be made.

She's not on his level. IMO the only ones who could potentially be are Dick and Tim.

@ultrastarkiller: what about Damien? At 8 years old, he's already doing a lot more than any of them at 8.

I believe Bruce was still crying about his parents at Damien's age.

I always forget about Damian. Lol but I suppose he could be on Bruce's level someday. IIRC didn't Gotham turn into the Apocalypse under his watch?

Indeed it did.

Damian himself admitted that he could never be as good as Batman or Nightwing, and that's why he made a deal with the Devil.

@bat_girl_cc: Is that canon?

Also, I don't know how much this comes into play, but psychologically there's a thing where men and women will always imagine their fathers or mothers to be the better man and woman so that they will always have an unreachable goal to aim for. That could possibly be the case also, but if the canon story where he's an adult is true and he makes a deal with the devil because feat wise he's not as good as either Dick or Bruce, that would make sense.

I doubt it.

None of them have the obsessive drive required to trump Batman on a general level. Tim might eventually trump him in crime detection/forensic science, Barbara in computer science, Cassie in hand to hand and so on, but on the general level, Batman has too much raw talent and more importantly, complete obsessiveness. Damian is the only one who could in my opinion, in the distant future that is.

I will not agree... but will agree with someone who gonna to say, that she had better origin of Bruce/Batman !!!

@masterdetective: That's because she's younger and he can give her the knowledge he aquired during his lifespan. The Bat(wo-)men in the future proceedingly got better and better as we see in Batman one million or something.

She's good but not anywhere near batman. She also doesn't have the same drive and maturity that batman does. Dick and Tim could become a successful batman, but even they could not match his drive and will power.

Um...no.

Cassandra Cain maybe.

I'm basing my thoughts on the DC Animated Universe though

Right now, i don't think it is...but since the New 52 started, almost nothing that happened before and during flashpoint, is cannon, still.

Nope, i think that Damian really meant what he said...also, he wasn't talking about overal skills...he was talking about stuff like willpower, wisdom, and stuff.

Damian is ussually said to be 10.

The age at which Bruce lost his parents is not really consistent, in most comics it is 8, but there are also several comics where he was 10 (and according to his new 52 secret origin he would have around 13 because the murder happend 17 years ago, but this is probably just a mistake of the author).

That's Batgirl (Cass), the OP maker, is talking about Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

Different character...this thread its about Babs, not Cass...also Cass on her own, can't replace Bruce, because even though she matches him, and even surpasses him on some areas, she lacks on some other areas, as well...the only way that she could truly replace Batman, like, Batman not being needed anymore, would be if Tim Drake and her, were doing it together, the 2 of them together could do it, according to Batman himself:

Kinda like, the brain and the brawn together.

But Babs alone its a even longer shot, as a possible Batman than Cass is, if you ask me...there's alot of people at street-level, that i can see Cass taking on, and i can't see Babs doing it...being smarter and a good detective its good and all, but when it comes down to it, having better training, greater fighting-skills, sharper mind in combat, better senses, overall more skills, etc, its better, imo.

Hahaha I needed a good laugh.

This depends, the Futures End Barbara is for example a very strong fighter and I would not be sure I Cass could take her down.

Cass on the other Hand is just a good fighter but nothing else, realistically she is nearly useless a detective.

In all honesty, I think it's quite possible all of his former sidekicks could surpass Bruce in more aspects than one. Most of them started training younger than him, he learned from the best in the world, so they all had top-notch training as well. Even if they all have their specialties among themselves.

Typical student surpasses the master stuff.

Tim Drake was said to be the perfect Batman when he comes of age according to Dick IIRC.

No way will Barbra ever surpass Bruce. She can match him in technical intellect. That is about it. Her detective skills are really good, but still no match for Bats. Her fighting skills are not something to rely on. Dick, and Tim have greater potential, but even they can't match the things that Bruce has accomplished. None of them have the obsessive drive, and willpower to carry on the mantle.

@bat_girl_cc:

And i talk abot Barbara... for me its really nice taste... first be normal girl like every other... then become some superhero sidekick - fall in chair of hands of one villain, beat that, become again what she was at past... return... wanna that she kill Joker - if will someone have to that... then its she... if will Batman gonna evil and someone have to kill him... that have to do Barbara :) And yea... she beat Bane :) Without venom :)

So then what about Damien and Terry? Do they have the drive and willpower, you think?

@scouterv: If you're talking about Terry from DCAU then no. He can be a good Batman, but not the same as Bruce. Terry mention in Epilogue (last episode of JLU) that Batman is just a job for him, and he puts his family first before Batman. He won't allow that job to take over his life. Damian IMO is the closest to matching Bruce as far as features go if he reaches his potential. He won't have the same obsessive drive, because he shares a different mentality than Bruce. Bruce is an obsessive work lord maniac. His job isn't to be Batman, that's who he is. Anybody taking over the Batman mantle (no matter who it is) will be living in Bruce's shadow, because they all know he is the true representative of Batman.

All of Bruce's subordinates could be a competent Batman, they just wouldn't be the same.

Babs overpowered Bane, that's barely a skill showing...Cass would speed-blitz her, and pressure-point her, for the win.

As for which would be a better "Batman, well, Let's see:

Cass is faster, Cass hits harder, Cass is more durable, Cass is a better fighter, Cass is a master on the use of every weapon known to man, Cass is better with stealth, Cass has better senses, Cass can recongise other people just by their way of moving, knowing what they will do next before they do it, and to some extent even knowing what they are thinking/feeling...etc. so basically, she's a better crime fighter than Babs in every way, minus detective skills.

Now, do the math.

Plus, when the threats are big, they require "force", and being a good detective is not going to help, when the threat its in your face, threatning you.

Knowing DC, it's probable no sidekick will ever surpass Batman, at least canonically.

And in the same issue, she said that Cassandra has made everyone that she met stronger, and that she is the person, that she most want to become :)

@bat_girl_cc:

Cassandra, Cassandra, Cassandra... where i mention Cassandra ? Why you cram she in my posts ? You first say that is this Barbara thread and YOU still talking about Cassandra !!!

Jeez! so much hate...never mind, Barbara is awesome, iconic, and the best ever, case closed.

@bat_girl_cc:

That is hate then will all be in caps like that ''YOU'' or like this...

Its you... you... i'm not angry i'm really so calm, nice... etc... its you... You and your avatar/nick... u are Cass fan... u :)

You are calm? yeah, right...

Ok, you hate Cass, i get it, no point in continue this discussion, which will lead to nowhere.

Batgirl is awesome.

But Batman is Batman ^_^

@bat_girl_cc:

I hate Cass ? Man... guy.... kid ! Are u ok ? How the hell u got that idea ? Why the hell will i hate some imagine character ? Why will i hate Cass... i dont have reasons for that.... are u ok ??? Maybe u think that i hate Cass bcs i more like Barbara... its not true... its nonsense....

You come here with your favorite character and trying to put hate in this thread... you still dont stop talking about Cass... i see that u are just kid amazed with Cassandra Cain, so there is no future arguing with u... and... good bye and have a nice day !

@claymore1998:

I agree...

@scouterv: I can see Damine Surpassing Bruce and then way later down the line training Terry to be Batman.

With this "math" Shiva or Bronze Tiger would be a better Crime Fighter than Batman.

And beeing Batman is not only about fighting skills and stealth. Batman is also a detective, a hacker , a strategist and a scientist (among other things). And Cass can do non of this. Sorry but she would probably not even be able to solve some of Riddlers riddles and against a real criminal mastermind (Luthor, Ras, Slade ...) she would be totally out of her league.

On the other hand Bane isone of the most dangerous fighters in Batmans rogues gallery so if Barbara can take him, she can probably replace Batman (if she is still as smart as she was during her time as oracle).

But wouldn't that make him a better Batman actually. Though I suppose maybe I'm confusing being a better Batman with being a better person.

Still, I don't see why not obsessing over crime and being Batman with your human self as a cover would make someone a better Batman if that's what you're getting at. You could still be the best regardless, no?

Do you think Terry could surpass Bruce and/or Damian?

Never did i said that Cass is, or could be, a better crime fighter than Batman...Batman himself stated once that it would take the combined efforts of both Cassandra Cain and Tim Drake to truly replace him, and i posted a scan of the instance, on which he stated it.

Futures End Babs overpowered Bane, that wasn't exactly a skill showing...plus, Futures End Barbara Gordon, its not Barbara Gordon...its a Barbara Gordon from a possible future that may or may not happen...the actual Barbara Gordon has never done anything to suggest that she could take on someone like Bane...in the New 52, besides cannon-fodder, she only fought people that were either holding-back, or trying to talk to her the whole time (Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Black Canary, and Huntress) the only character that Babs fought that wasn't cannon-fodder and wasn't holding-back, was Strix, and it was clear that Strix was her superior, combat-wise, Babs stated it herself...Not to mention, that many times she stated that she had luck doing stuff like, beating a number of thugs at once, or performing aim-dodging, etc, all stuff that its not even impressive for a street-leveler...all of that, despite being written by a well known fan-service writter in Gail Simone.

Anyway, its clear that i prefer more the bada$$ part of Batman, than the clever one...while you think otherwise, and its fine...point is, neither could truly replace him on their own.

@bat_girl_cc said:

Sure but there are many different versions of Barbara Gordon and I just wanted to show that there is one that is a very strong fighter.But it is true as Batgirl Barbara usually didn't fought against any really major villains on her own (as far as I know). As Oracle she was probably more effective.

point is, neither could truly replace him on their own.

But I can see Tim catching up with Bruce in fighting skill in the future (he is still a teenager and years younger than Bruce was when he started as Batman) or come up with something to compensate for it, but I don't think that Cass can learn the whole science, strategy and detective stuff.

@scouterv: Damiane yes, Terry Possibly.

- I agree, Oracle > batgirl (babs) in effectiveness, every day of the week.

- Neither Cass or Tim could solo, though they have some of his qualities, Batman knew that, and that's why he told Cass that she and Tim together could take over for him, they complement each other.

Same

Nope

Not really. The only area she's better than Batman is hacking. He outclasses her in every other category. And age doesn't have anything to do with it.

Batman first started when he was at the age of 25, and even then he was a master martial artist, detective, strategist and intellectual. He just got better with age. Barbara is currently around that age, and she doesn't hold a candle to him, even to a rookie Batman.

Rookie Batman stopped Riddler's Zero Year. Can Batgirl do that? I doubt it. She barely got past Knightfall and her cronies.

Cassandra and that's it.