So the reason I am creating this thread is because I am trying to compile a complete list of superheroes related to Batman in one shape or another. So my main question is where do you draw the line from a superhero that is part of the bat family and one that isn't?

Do you have to had warn the Bat or Robin logo? or live in Gotham? Or be on a team started by someone that is in the Bat family?

And then the next question after that is established is who are some characters that Batman is close to that fall outside the Bat Family (which you just defined if you answered the first question)?

Here is what I have so far:

Bat Family: Batman, Nightwing, Red Robin, Robin, Red Hood, Batgirl, Black Bat, Spoiler, Huntress, Azrael, Catwoman

Bat Cousins: Misfit, Proxy, Black Canary, Creeper, Batwoman, Flamebird, Kathy Kane-Webb, The Question (Renee), Catgirl, Lynx, Orpheus, Onyx, Sasha Bordeaux, Manhunter, Etrigan, Nimrod, Talon, Outsiders (Metamorpho, Katana, Looker, Halo, Owlman, Freightrain) and Batman Inc. (Mr. Unkown, Nightrunner, Knight, El Gaucho, The Hood, Dark Ranger, Batwing, Wingman, Dark Ranger, Man of Bats?)

Bat Friends: Superman, Green Arrow, Zatanna, Zatarra, Wildcat, Plastic Man, The Question, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Toyman, Deadman, Ragman, Wonder Woman, GeoForce, Black Lighting, Alan Scott, and OMAC

To me ithey have to appear mostly in batman related titles

I dont think they have to be in a team started by a bat-character to a bat-character themslves, like black lightning in outsiders who i dont consider a bat-character

Ya but then you get characters like Batwoman or Talon which totally spawned from Batman but is it really fair to say they are part of the Bat Family? And what about Black Canary or Katana which are two heroes that appear all the time in Bat titles (mainly Birds of Prey and Outsiders) and have a close relationship to Batman and in the case of Katana almost exclusively appears in Bat teams, but are they part of the Bat Family?

To me, Bat Family is centred around Bruce and Alfred (dad and mom, lol). So, people trained/partners are included (Robins, etc) as well as people who were originally not sanctioned but gained acceptance later. There are core methods and a philosophy that is usually followed but not always (red hood lol). They also need to know the identities for the rest of the family (or the vast majority of them) and have access to the Cave ("the house" lol). They don't have to live in Gotham full-time (i.e. NW liked Bludhaven for a while there).

Independents like Batwoman and Talon are not included (bat-related or bat-inspired but not bat-family). Selina and Talia are not included except in continuities were she marries Bruce and does the duo thing/compromises. Batmen inc are not included. Katana is not, even though she has a strong relationship with Bruce, she does not have strong ties to the rest of the family. Similarly, Starfire has strong ties with Dick and Canary with Babs, but they aren't included either.

/gave this way more thought that i should have

@batshrine said:

Ya but then you get characters like Batwoman or Talon which totally spawned from Batman but is it really fair to say they are part of the Bat Family? And what about Black Canary or Katana which are two heroes that appear all the time in Bat titles (mainly Birds of Prey and Outsiders) and have a close relationship to Batman and in the case of Katana almost exclusively appears in Bat teams, but are they part of the Bat Family?

Batwoman has batmans approval, so shes bat-family to me, she has also met nightwing. talon doesnt count, hes too new

@britsera: I like your definition especially in relation to access to the Batcave. So jw did Huntress ever get access to the cave? Cause there was a time when she was 100% Bat Family, but I don't think I have ever seen her there.

And Carrie Kelly and Terry McGinnis are both Bat Family but in different timelines. In my opinion either can be canon since it is the future, and well we haven't gotten there yet in comics lol. Though officially they are both not canon simply cause Terry is still connected to DCAU (or Timmverse), and Carrie is part of Millerverse neither fall very well within comics today.

Here are all the members of the I accept as part of the bat-family

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/29-1699/bat-family-generations/92-703778/#1

Other members I might consider would be Alfred, BlackCanary, James Gordon, and 1 or 2 others that their names escape me right now.

One thing you might note in my Bat-family generations is that there are several sub families or branch families... You could call it the Cat-family and The Oracle Family. Of course if we were to go with that Black Canary would be part of the Oracle family.

So in some cases I accept "student" or "student of student" as part, but also actual relatedness should come into play either through marriage, almost marriage/had a close relationship, blood, or adoption. But there is, as mentioned in that link a rejection of one character who fits pretty much every criteria, but just doesn't seem like she fits "Sasha Bordeaux"

Another few people that "could" fit... Black Alice, Lynx, The General, and Anarky... and if we are going for more civilian types Tamera Fox, Lucious Fox, Vicki Vale, Harold, and Silver St.Cloud.

One might also do the whole extended family thing and include Superman, Deadman, Renee Montoya, or Commissioner Sawyer or whatever her now completely demoted rank is.

Generally speaking I have to say it is more or less just a feeling you have about the characters, but if we are going to just go with the very core group they are ... Batmans, Robins, Batgirls, and Catwoman. Anyone who has held that title on a permanent basis is part of the bat-family but that also brings up the issue of Jean-Paul Valley so >.> not quite there either.

PS. All Batwomen are related to Bruce Wayne. Batwoman I was his aunt and Batwoman II is his 2nd or 3rd cousin. Bette (The Original Bat-Girl), or Flamebird, is also related to Bruce

@Durakken: I like the way you are going with this and I am all for a HUGE network but the thing is when does it stop. Because at the center you have Bruce Wayne then lets say he branches out to Barbara Gorden who then branches out to Black Canary (Who also has a relationship to Batman), Misfit (no relation), Lady Blackhawk (no relation), Huntress (long relationship with Batman), Katana (been only on Batman teams until the new JLA and is going to be his sidekick on the new show), Starling (not related to Batman), and Poison Ivy (hehehe) via the Birds of Prey and the list goes on with proxy and so forth. So does that make all the birds part of the bat family? Under your category Misfit fits but I would say Katana has more right to be in the family then she since she actually does have that personal relationship with Bruce. Canary then branches out to more characters to for example Green Arrow (who also has had a long history with Batman but I think we can all agree he is not a Bat), and Wildcat (who trained Batman in boxing and in the Bat universe Cats seem to be pretty close to Bats). So where do the Branches stop? I am cool with your classification of 3 generation separation.

So far I like the core Family being people who have had access to the Batcave with permission and follow Batman philosophy in your case thats Generation 1 and 2. (but where does that put Catwoman?) Could we say characters that have been influenced by Batman or any of the Family as Bat Cousins? So then we could include characters like the Creeper? And then you have close allies not as part of the family but as friends?

So then:

Bat Family: Batman, Nightwing, Red Robin, Robin, Red Hood, Batgirl, Black Bat, Spoiler, Huntress, Azrael

Bat Cousins: Misfit, Proxy, Black Canary, Creeper, Batwoman, Flamebird, The Question (Renee), Catgirl, Lynx, Orpheus, Onyx, Sasha Bordeaux, Manhunter, Etrigan, Nimrod, Outsiders (Metamorpho, Katana, Looker, Halo, Owlman, Freightrain, GeoForce, and Black Lighting) and Batman Inc. (Mr. Unkown, Nightrunner, Knight, El Gaucho, The Hood, Dark Ranger, Batwing, Man of Bats?)

Bat Friends: Superman, Green Arrow, Zatanna, Zatarra, Wildcat, Plastic Man, The Question, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Toyman, Deadman, Ragman, Wonder Woman, and OMAC

Am I missing anyone? And are these classifications fair?

@batshrine said:

@britsera: I like your definition especially in relation to access to the Batcave. So jw did Huntress ever get access to the cave? Cause there was a time when she was 100% Bat Family, but I don't think I have ever seen her there.

And Carrie Kelly and Terry McGinnis are both Bat Family but in different timelines. In my opinion either can be canon since it is the future, and well we haven't gotten there yet in comics lol. Though officially they are both not canon simply cause Terry is still connected to DCAU (or Timmverse), and Carrie is part of Millerverse neither fall very well within comics today.

Why thank you. :)

Idk if I've ever seen Helena in the Cave in canon, but I feel like there was a splash page/promo/something from Battle for the Cowl where she was in the cave with everyone... not sure though (I don't follow her much). Agree about Terry, don't know enough about Carrie to make the call. Terry was basically something between Robin and Batman II in that show, and if I remember from the movie he did know who Tim was. Ace also counts, I guess...lol.

@Durakken

I don't think Jim Gordon counts, he's just a close friend/ally of the family (though if he wanted he could know who everyone was). He's chosen (in a way) to not be a part of it for plausible deniability, and Bats has sort of respected that... Jason's in the opposite position, he doesn't want to be part of the family but is.

(Never knew much about BWoman at all, I assumed she was independent...heh)

You know, for a loner/cold/obsessive/reclusive guy, Bruce has got a LOT of friends, lol.

@britsera: Ha ya loner Batman only exists in the beginning. Its just hard to be on so many teams and not make friends. Especially since he has a super charming personality. But you do notice though that the people he is closer to, the more he will let a nice comment slip.

I'll still stand by the concept that Batman's best friend is Superman too! But are there anybody else that I missed in the family or outside the family?

Well I wouldn't put every ally as friend. For example I would never consider Hal Jordan to be Batman's friend, even though they are allies. And when I think of all these characters I think about their relationship to Batman. Thats why I didn't put all the Birds of Prey, nor did I put all the Outsiders even though they are directly Batman's team. And again we have to draw a line somewhere from who is part of the family to just a friend to just an ally.

@batshrine: If you want to really get into it... I'v started breaking down as the Gotham Universe and the families clans/tribes within...

There are the Elliots, the Cobblepots, the Waynes, the Kanes, and the Arkhams. The Elliots are pretty much dead. Cobblepot runs most of the "Mafia" criminals. Most of the "rogue gallery" is part of the Arkham family. The Waynes and the Kanes however are more or less one family and represent most of the people in Gotham that aren't criminals or psychos. You can also claim there are "immigrants" and this would include gordon, sawyer, Bollock, Montoya, etc... weirdly a lot of the police are immigrants from other cities in Gotham.

The core of the Wayne/Batman family is Bruce Wayne. The Core of Kane family at the moment is Kate Kane/Batwoman.

From Bruce you can extend backwards and get a number of heroes and villains such as Thomas Wayne and Dr. Hurt. You also have Alfred in the immediate past of this family. Likewise you also have Kate, Kathy, Bette, and Beth Kane. as part of the Batwoman family... technically the Kane family is the Bat Family, not the Waynes. The Waynes use the Bat. but the Kanes are the Bats. Historically speaking that is.

There are four families in the "Bat-Family" Bruce, his heirs, their heirs, and their "loves"...

Batman = Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim. Cassandra, Damian, Selina Kyle, Barbara, Stephanie, Scarlet.

Those are the characters that are more or less accepted, but you can also include, all Bruce's loves regardless of how let in they are that have been significant, and all the semi-but not official side-kicks...

Viki Vale, Silver StCloud, Sasha Bordeaux, Talia al ghul, Tad Ryerstad,

Notice I don't include Talia in the primary family, but he could be because Talia was more of a forced thing rather than someone bruce accepted.

You also then have Bat-family 2...

Batwoman = Kate, Kathy, Bette, and Beth Kane.

After that you have "The Cat-Family" which by way of Selina becomes part of the bat family. So even though Holly and Kitrina don't interact with Batman all that much Selina does and those two are her family just as Dick and them are his family and thus it get merged.

The last one is The Oracle Family. You say "Batgirl is Bat-family" and I say not true. Batgirl was inspired and then went out on her own rather than him becoming a student. Bruce taught her stuff, but it was more incidental than intential. This family consists of the BoP, Team Batgirl, and possibly Powergirl.

You can then start merging and looking at where all these connections go, but I prefer to keep it at this level. It's known that in some cannon that Superman and Batman's families eventual do come together. So theoretically he's part of it at some point...

As to Batman Inc people... They aren't part of the family...They are more, employees or, you could say they are from different clans... if you were to say everything I said previous is part of the "Gotham clans" then those Batman inc members would be part of some other group of clans.

@Durakken: I think thats a cool mapping of the Gotham Families (and I can tell you are a huge Snyder and Morrison fan)! I think it limits the size of Gotham however. Lets not forget Gotham was the home of Alan Scott and his family, Black Lighting and his family, Black Canary and her family (which operates in Gotham). Then you have Azrael and Creeper, where do they fit within your framing. And it would be unfair to leave them out of the Bat mythos. And as we have yet to see post-Flashpoint Huntress interact with Bruce (which I honestly can't wait for!!!), so where would she fit, because she totally isn't a Bird.

I won't lie I am a bigger fan of measuring the Bat Family but how much Bruce has influenced the characters, how similar their methodologies are, and how much access they have to Bruce.

Though your system creates an excellent map and is way more structured. And it seems we both agree on the core Bat Family (Except for Scarlet, which I find intriguing that you put her there though in your system it makes sense...kinda). But it seems that you argue that the Birds, Cats, and Kanes are separate from Bruce except for their ringleader which sort of has ties to Bruce, and thats what connects the groups.

I do think it is unfair that you think Batwing is more removed from the Bat Family than Scarlet though...and even though Batman Inc. is new, and they are way more spread out they are a network of like minded individuals who have picked up the way of the Bat. So I see that is where your system breaks down. And it basically says if you aren't in my core groupings you are just allies, and I feel like there is an important distinction between allies and friends.

Im a fan of Dixon. Morrison and Snyder have their good points but are largely meh...

Alan Scott, Black Lightning, and Black Canary would be a part of Wayne/Kane/Immigrants. I don't know enough to say, but they're from one of them most likely. I consider most of the Gotham population to be part of the Wayne or Kane family since most of them are propped in some form by 1 of them.

Azrael = Immigrant

Creeper = Arkham

All the Kanes are related to Bruce. Bruce is a Kane. His mother is Martha Kane. Batwoman I is his aunt by marriage, and the other in the Kane family are all related to him by blood.

The birds as you call them come from Barbara's legacy. It's associated with the Batman legacy, but it is not the same.

That Cats also interact with the Batfamily, but not as much as one might say to make them part of the family...but then I'm also saying that all the members coming from the Batfamily are also part of the Catfamily...

Scarlet is a recognized sidekick and Tad is a semi-recognized sidekick... so both are more closely associated with Bruce than Batman inc.

Batman inc doesn't make them close to Bruce. The inc members are all their own families, much more like Barbara than they are like Dick. Bruce has very little to do with with the Batman Inc members in terms of how they operate... Batman goes "here are the things you can't do, cross the line and i'll break you, and take back everything i'm giving you" he also appearantly has Dick or someone go train them for a short bit, much shorter than an of the Bat family ever trained for. and then he leaves them on their own more or less. The bat inc people reports and asks for advice, but they are left to their own devices other than that.

So who would you then say are close to Batman and don't fall within these families (or the Bat Family in general)

@batshrine: Hard to say... a lot of the world falls under Wayne influence ^.^ One might argue that Zatanna could said to be close to Bruce, but isn't part of the Bat-Family or under the Wayne Influence Circle or however you want to say it.

@PsychoKnights: Thats fair, but who is close to Batman but isn't part of the family?

@PsychoKnights: I don't know about that though. I mean I would say Zatanna is an established character that doesn't have her own book. HAs very close ties to Batman and the Bat Family though I would not say she is part of the family.

I think another important factor is that the Bat Family at its core a street-level (i.e. depowered) team, and Z doesn't fit.They don't win because they're smart or technologically superior (though it helps...), but because of that super-determined philosophy and willpower they have - they absolutely refuse to lose, even if that goes to ridiculous extents like carrying around shark repellent or dividing the Family itself (NW back in the day).

So I guess it's some subset of approval from Bruce, sufficient relationship with the other family members (inc. most if not all secret identities), access or knowledge of the cave/wayne tech, holding at least some of the archetypal Batman philosophy of determination, no kill, etc (even Jason is a "win at all costs" kind of guy, he just takes it further) and using Bat-techniques ('rangs, skill over overt power, detective work) . Did I miss anything?

Batman Inc is employees

GCPD is like co-workers

@PsychoKnights said:

@batshrine said:

@PsychoKnights: I don't know about that though. I mean I would say Zatanna is an established character that doesn't have her own book. HAs very close ties to Batman and the Bat Family though I would not say she is part of the family.

Think so? I would consider her more a part of the Justice League. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one Batman comic where she guest starred...though I have no doubt there are many more.

I forget if there are many appearances, but it is made clear that Zatanna and Bruce are childhood friends somewhere in their interactions. That is to say that out of everyone in the DCU, she is 1 of 4 people that have known Bruce since childhood...and all 4 of them know he is also Batman.

However, that is not to say they had a big impact on each other or know each other well. It only means that Zatanna and Bruce have known each other for a long time and the course of their lives have lead them to being super-human allies.

@Durakken: So does that make her part of the family or naw?

@batshrine said:

@Durakken: So does that make her part of the family or naw?

Nope

@DeathpooltheT1000: Oh I was just looking at the super heroes thats why Alfred isn't on that list, otherwise he is number 1. And why would you put them under bat cousins instead of direct family?

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@DeathpooltheT1000 said:

Sorry but Spoiler, Huntress, Azrael are bat cousins and you need to put Catwoman and Alfred in the Batfamily and Ace the Bathound too, there is not family without a Dog.

BRING ACE BACK!!

i agree, Titus can suck it.

Do you still say that after todays events?

Oh and since Talon is finally going to interact with Batman, I am tentatively adding him to the Bat Cousins category

IMO the Bat Family should only contain:

Batman

Nightwing

Robin(Damian)

Red Robin

Red Hood

Batgirl (Barbara)

The rest is crap..........

Batwing is a Batman Inc member and operates in North Africa.

I don't think thats fair to ignore Huntress, since in every incarnation of the character she has had a connection to Batman.

And this list is fair to DCnU, but should we ignore previous continuities?

And would you say my list does as you suggest? I just added closely related characters, and characters that have been shown to be strong allies to Batman as well.

IMO this should be the Bat-Family.

Huntress is not made for it......

How could you say Huntress wasn't made for it. She was created to be Batman and Catwoman's daughter. And after Crisis she was rebooted and still part of the Bat Family, with her role increasing with No Man's Land and New Gotham. She also was a lead character in Birds of Prey, and it was Batman that got her to join the Justice League. And now after flashpoint, you get her back to her roots. She was born this time as Robin, and adopted Huntress when coming to Earth 1. An argument can be made that she is currently not part of the team since she hasn't interacted with any of them but Damian, but I would be hard pressed to find a good argument to say that she wasn't created to be in the Bat Family since she is Batman and Catwoman's daughter.

I am so sorry....I thought you meant Helena Bertinelli Huntress.

I agree with you.Helena Wayne could be a member of the Bat-Family.The problem is,she is from a different reality.

I'd argue that even Helena Bertinelli deserves a slot in the Bat-family. She was always pretty closely linked to them.

@batshrine:

For DCnU. I would remove Black Bat, Spoiler, Huntress, Azrael, Catwoman from the main family...Catwomen I am not sure 100%

Catwoman did get Death Of The Family Tie-Ins, and a Requiem issue, so I think DC considers her to be one of the family.

Okay, Thanks!

@drgnx: As for DCnU, I agree those characters do not belong (though I'm willing to bet that Azrael is the new Batman in Earth 2). But I am looking at the greater timescale of Batman, and they do belong. I will not bend to DC's wishes of removing some of their best characters, not yet.

Though should I add Robin (Carrie Kelly) as Bat Cousin, or Bat Family, or wait till we see how her character officially develops?

@batshrine:

I'm not sure about Carrie or Harper, I don't really read the solicits often (I like my surprises), might be safer to wait.

*applause*

Yes, I already picked my battles, and won, or am winning, so don't give up!

So far

1. Majestic?.....Tick
2. Hank Henshew? ...Tick
3. Batwing getting a "fully covered" suit? ....Tick
4. Reverse Flash? ... Tick
5. Doomsday? ... Tick (Superdoom)
6. Steel ditching his AC suit for one similar to his pre-flashpoint one?...Tick (kind of)
7. Eradicator? ... Ticking
8. The Crime Syndicate returning? ... Ticking
9. Shazam Vs Superman? ... Tick Tock, Tick Tock

Now I may focus my goals on the last primary milestone!!!

Gray Lantern Crops? ..... Ready all cannons!!!