Leave Babs Alone!

#1 Posted by goldenbat (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously, so many people are criticizing DC for bringing Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, but when you think about it, there are tonnes of reasons why she is the best.

  1. She's the original. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown (cough) have made their own spin on the Batgirl persona, but if it weren't for Babs, then Batgirl may never have been invented. When you think about it, Cass and Steph must have thought Babs was pretty cool if they wanted to model themselves after her...
  2. She's a red head - who doesn't love a red head in a skin-tight suit kicking butt?
  3. She worked with Batman. Cool, huh? And, if that's not enough, she got shot and paralyzed by Joker. But, due to her personal strength and motivation, she got out of the wheel chair and back into the Batgirl suit. That's pretty impressive. And hey, if Batman approves...
  4. To date, Babs has never had her own series. Batgirl Vol 1 and 2 were Cassandra Cain, and Vol 3 was Stephanie Brown, so apart from the Batgirl Special (see below) in 1988, she's only featured along side The Dynamic Duo

So, why shouldn't she have her own series in New 52?

#2 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

#3 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

Hit the nail on the head.

#4 Posted by War Killer (19972 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion Barbara was far more interesting as Oracle, not to mention more useful to the Bat-Family. Currently she adds nothing, though some might disagree, to the Bat-Family. Personally, when The New 52 started, I wish they would have kept Barb as Oracle and had Cassandra return to being Batgirl, having Bard being Cass' mentor. The series, to fit into the idea of these characters being younger, could have focused on Barb having only been Oracle for a year or so since being shot by Joker and Cass only recently taking up the mantle of Batgirl; as the series progressed we would see both Cass and Bard struggle and fit into their new roles and slowly see the two bond into a sisterly bond.
 
At least, that's how I would have liked the series to have been.

#5 Posted by The_Tree (7211 posts) - - Show Bio

@goldenbat said:

  1. She's the original. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown (cough) have made their own spin on the Batgirl persona, but if it weren't for Babs, then Batgirl may never have been invented. When you think about it, Cass and Steph must have thought Babs was pretty cool if they wanted to model themselves after her...
  2. She's a red head - who doesn't love a red head in a skin-tight suit kicking butt?
  3. She worked with Batman. Cool, huh? And, if that's not enough, she got shot and paralyzed by Joker. But, due to her personal strength and motivation, she got out of the wheel chair and back into the Batgirl suit. That's pretty impressive. And hey, if Batman approves...
  4. To date, Babs has never had her own series. Batgirl Vol 1 and 2 were Cassandra Cain, and Vol 3 was Stephanie Brown, so apart from the Batgirl Special (see below) in 1988, she's only featured along side The Dynamic Duo

So, why shouldn't she have her own series in New 52?

  1. Being the original doesn't mean that a character is the best, and if you want to get technical, Bette Kane was the first Batgirl.
  2. Being a red head doesn't make her any better of a character.
  3. Batman approved of Cass and Steph as well.
  4. Babs has had plenty of spotlight in Batgirl: Year One and throughout the Birds of Prey series (as the much more awesome and developed Oracle).

I won't hold it a secret that I prefer Babs as Oracle. I most certainly wouldn't have minded Babs returning to the Batgirl mantle, had it not erased the hefty character development she received as Oracle.

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

This post by Blood1991 sums up my other feelings quite nicely.

#6 Posted by goldenbat (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure, Barbara was great as Oracle, but after Huntress left BOP, the team had to split up. After all, part of Oracle's role was to ensure that Huntress contained her killing impulses, and the two definitely formed the backbone of BOP, even though the original team was Oracle and Black Canary. After Huntress left, the BOP would never be the same, whether you had Oracle or not.

Think about it this way: If you had been confined to a wheelchair for years and the technology had arrived that allowed you to walk again, try to convince me that you wouldn't take it? After all, though she was a fan-favorite, Stephanie Brown was a crappy character, with little, if any, backbone. She was simply a blonde in the costume. Nothing more to it. And lets face it, Cassandra Cain could never come back after simply 'handing over' the Batgirl mantle to Stephanie... so what other options did DC have? Keep Stephanie? Nope. So, they brought back Babs - who, so far, has had a pretty damn good couple of issues. Yeah, forget about the 'Grotesque' arc, that was a little pathetic, but the 'Mirror' arc was pretty impressive, and the Night of the Owls tie-in issue was pretty good. Oh yeah, don't forget the most recent arc - 'Knightfall'.

#7 Posted by goldenbat (13 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle was great. No doubt. But for how long can you write a character without evolving her in any way? Oracle has pretty much remained the same character for 20-odd years, and due to the limited possible development, I believe DC made the write choice, making Babs Batgirl again.

#8 Edited by The_Tree (7211 posts) - - Show Bio

@goldenbat said:

Sure, Barbara was great as Oracle, but after Huntress left BOP, the team had to split up. After all, part of Oracle's role was to ensure that Huntress contained her killing impulses, and the two definitely formed the backbone of BOP, even though the original team was Oracle and Black Canary. After Huntress left, the BOP would never be the same, whether you had Oracle or not.

Think about it this way: If you had been confined to a wheelchair for years and the technology had arrived that allowed you to walk again, try to convince me that you wouldn't take it? After all, though she was a fan-favorite, Stephanie Brown was a crappy character, with little, if any, backbone. She was simply a blonde in the costume. Nothing more to it. And lets face it, Cassandra Cain could never come back after simply 'handing over' the Batgirl mantle to Stephanie... so what other options did DC have? Keep Stephanie? Nope. So, they brought back Babs - who, so far, has had a pretty damn good couple of issues. Yeah, forget about the 'Grotesque' arc, that was a little pathetic, but the 'Mirror' arc was pretty impressive, and the Night of the Owls tie-in issue was pretty good. Oh yeah, don't forget the most recent arc - 'Knightfall'.

You can't just write off Steph as a "crappy character". She had plenty of development in BQM's Batgirl series, and she gained a pretty big following in her time as Batgirl. You sound like you haven't even read the series.

@goldenbat said:

Oracle was great. No doubt. But for how long can you write a character without evolving her in any way? Oracle has pretty much remained the same character for 20-odd years, and due to the limited possible development, I believe DC made the write choice, making Babs Batgirl again.

Characters can still remain interesting while maintaining somewhat of the status quo, that's pretty much the life of a long lived comic character. And you completely missed my earlier point. As I said, I wouldn't have minded her taking up the BG mantle again, had it not erased her time as Oracle. With Babs becoming Oracle we saw her mature and develop into an even more wonderful character, and she provided this niche usefulness to the Bat-Family as such a character. Babs current status is a slap to the face of people who've been following her character for years and years. With erasing her time as Oracle and putting her back as Batgirl, it's taking one step forward and two steps back.

#9 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12519 posts) - - Show Bio

@goldenbat said:

Seriously, so many people are criticizing DC for bringing Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, but when you think about it, there are tonnes of reasons why she is the best.

  1. She's the original. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown ( cough) have made their own spin on the Batgirl persona, but if it weren't for Babs, then Batgirl may never have been invented. When you think about it, Cass and Steph must have thought Babs was pretty cool if they wanted to model themselves after her...
  2. She's a red head - who doesn't love a red head in a skin-tight suit kicking butt?
  3. She worked with Batman. Cool, huh? And, if that's not enough, she got shot and paralyzed by Joker. But, due to her personal strength and motivation, she got out of the wheel chair and back into the Batgirl suit. That's pretty impressive. And hey, if Batman approves...
  4. To date, Babs has never had her own series. Batgirl Vol 1 and 2 were Cassandra Cain, and Vol 3 was Stephanie Brown, so apart from the Batgirl Special (see below) in 1988, she's only featured along side The Dynamic Duo

So, why shouldn't she have her own series in New 52?

technically Bette Kane was the original. im glad to see Babs wearing the cape and cowl again, but i completely understand why Oracle fans would be upset.

#10 Posted by wessaari (622 posts) - - Show Bio

how bout this, i love Babs as Oracle, Im loving her as Batgirl, but i love Stephanie Brown and miss her presnece. i call that a win win ;D

#11 Posted by SupBatz (1690 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

#12 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Barbara as Batgirl

#13 Edited by Lvenger (18329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

Sums up the feelings of most fans views on the issue. Including my own.

#14 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1300 posts) - - Show Bio

The new 52 steph would be what 13 to 15 years old and cass only a couple years older so I suppose ms gordon was the only choice.

Online
#15 Posted by X9 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess the point was: what's the problem anyway?

It's NEW 52 and to be honest, Cass and Steph were never truly Batgirls for many people. Me, for example, I liked them, but as Black Cat and Spoiler.

I won't even get started on the Oracle thing cause I think it's just a matter of waiting. There's been a 3 years gap between her first year as Batgirl and her current run, do you really think Gail won't come up with sth to fill it? Sth that reminds us of the Oracle role?

I also think another point was: why are her fans showing so much hate for the character? Really, they're picking on every single thing she does. Sometimes they make comments about the issues and her actions and, when I get to read them I think "Did they really read the same issue I did, how come they couldn't get it/see it? It's written here..."

I'm not trying to be agressive, I'd just like her fans to do the same. I don't see that level of hate and complaning in other forums, it really sucks.

You have the right to like it or not, but ALL you say is how much you don't like her uniform, or the way her hair moves, or how Oracle was nice. Sorry, but there are other fans who like the current title and changes and they also have the right to express themselves with someone always saying "I prefer her as Oracle. Period" Ok, we got it, just stop writing it over and over again, please.

Or create a new topic: Why I miss Oracle, and write there. It will help everyone.

I really hope you get my point and take it personal. Thanks.

#16 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm fine with Barbra being batgirl. I will not leave babs alone however.

#17 Posted by cameron83 (6646 posts) - - Show Bio

I hated her as oracle,she was basically useless.

#18 Posted by JSAVen (99 posts) - - Show Bio

: @cameron83 said:

I hated her as oracle,she was basically useless.

#19 Posted by theteapot (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@X9 said:

It's NEW 52 and to be honest, Cass and Steph were never truly Batgirls for many people. Me, for example, I liked them, but as Black Cat and Spoiler.

I agree - Cassandra Cain was a better Black Bat (not Black Cat) and Stephanie Brown was great as Spoiler. People are picking New 52 Batgirl apart harshly and criticizing Barbara - even her fans are finding flaws in her performances throughout her series. To be honest, of course not all issues have been 10/10, but in comparison with tonnes of other comics out there, this is hardly a bad one, and deserves, in my opinion, more credit then it's getting. Also, this is only my personal opinion, but Barbara Gordon is the only Batgirl in my opinion. Sure, Cass and Steph held the mantle for a few years, but Babs is the only one who, in my mind, is the perfect Batgirl.

#20 Posted by Haaydrian (173 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked the idea of Babs being back, but the series was lackluster.

#21 Posted by Asesino (376 posts) - - Show Bio

@goldenbat said:

  1. She's a red head - who doesn't love a red head in a skin-tight suit kicking butt

He does have a point.

#22 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara Gordon is one of my favourite characters but I really do not like what the reboot did to her.

People can argue as much as they want, it is EXACTLY as if Dick Grayson went back to being Robin and erased out of existence Jason, Tim and Damian. You might prefer them to Cass and Steph and you might find the idea ridiculous but it is EXACTLY the same.

Gail Simone is a great writer and she does manage to use what happened to Barbara intelligently but it does not change the fact that the character is just completely different from who she was before Flashpoint.

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

The Killing Joke is by far my favourite comic book but I hated what happened to Barbara. Having said that, Ostrander, Dixon and Simone managed to get some of the best character development in the history of comics out of it.

On top of that, I just find it sickening that DC got rid of ALL their overweight (Amanda Waller, Etta Candy), elder (basically all the remaining original JSA members) and handicapped superheroes (Oracle, Dr Midnight, the Chief, Captain Marvel Jr...)

#23 Posted by cbishop (7095 posts) - - Show Bio

@goldenbat said:

  1. To date, Babs has never had her own series. Batgirl Vol 1 and 2 were Cassandra Cain, and Vol 3 was Stephanie Brown, so apart from the Batgirl Special (see below) in 1988, she's only featured along side The Dynamic Duo

So, why shouldn't she have her own series in New 52?

You forgot one:

And technically:

Also:

And if you want to count it:

Just sayin'. ;)

Online
#24 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (6029 posts) - - Show Bio

Im not complaining. I'm new to comics and I'm enjoying babs as Batgirl. If I ever read Cassandra or steph Brown as Batgirl I might change my opinion. Can anyone suggest me any good Steph brown and Cassandra Cain as batgirl trades?

#25 Posted by The_Tree (7211 posts) - - Show Bio

@MadeinBangladesh: Check out Steph's Batgirl series volumes Batgirl: Batgirl Rising, Batgirl: The Flood, and Batgirl: The Lesson. I don't really know much on Cass.

#26 Posted by X9 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@JSAVen said:

: @cameron83 said:

I hated her as oracle,she was basically useless.

It's his opinion, dude, not everyone liked her as Oracle ¬¬

Personally, I never bought Bat Family's "need" to have a super hacker. It always felt like an excuse, a gap they created to be filled with a physically handicapped character. They never had a super hacker before as well as they don't have it now and they're doing fine. Alfred has always been their Oracle for that matter...

: Yeaah, Black Bat, I typed it wrong XD

Black Cat is from Marvel XP

#27 Posted by SmashBrawler (5496 posts) - - Show Bio

@MadeinBangladesh said:

Im not complaining. I'm new to comics and I'm enjoying babs as Batgirl. If I ever read Cassandra or steph Brown as Batgirl I might change my opinion. Can anyone suggest me any good Steph brown and Cassandra Cain as batgirl trades?

Even though I've never read it, I've heard that Brian Q. Miller's Batgirl series (starring Stephanie Brown) is pretty good. Collected in:

  • Batgirl: Batgirl Rising
  • Batgirl: The Flood
  • Batgirl: The Lesson
#28 Posted by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

That is exactly what I felt when I read the DC previews.

#29 Posted by KZR (487 posts) - - Show Bio

Why didn't they let her regain the ability to walk and just leave her as Oracle? Or forget the ability to walk, why not just bring her back as Oracle? Then they could have bought back Cassandra Cain/ Stephanie Brown (I prefer Cassie to be quite honest)as Batgirl. Babs was great as Oracle.

#30 Posted by X9 (751 posts) - - Show Bio
Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

For the last time...when she was Oracle she was OLDER, which means OF COURSE she was mature and more confident ¬¬

New 52 Batgirl is so incompetent that she managed to defeat every single villain who stood in her way, without further help. AND is kicking ass with the Birds of Prey, as the team second leader. AND is gonna be a guest star in TT.

Furthermore, Babs is the only one in Bat Family who actually questions her methods and her influence among the ones who have nothing (thieves of smaller things, forgotten minors, etc). It that's not maturity, I don't know what is.

About her ability to walk...if she ever comes back to that damn wheelchair, as much as I love Babs, I'm quitting. Enough background stories.

#31 Posted by danhimself (22286 posts) - - Show Bio

neither Cass or Steph modeled themselves after Babs....Cass was given the Batgirl mantle by Batman after he took the costume from the Huntress and then Cass gave Steph the title when Bruce told her too...neither of them decided to do it on their own

Online
#32 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like the inconsistency of how they handled the bat-family. It should've been Nightwing/Oracle graduated, with Damian/Stephanie as the noobies, and then work Tim, Jason, and Cassandra in later.

#33 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Shotgun said:

@DarthShap said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

That is exactly what I felt when I read the DC previews.

Which is why you have to read the book to realise that Barbara was able to fight her fear and become an even stronger person even after a devastating accident.

That is courage, that is strength, that is determination.

#34 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@Shotgun said:

@DarthShap said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

That is exactly what I felt when I read the DC previews.

Which is why you have to read the book to realise that Barbara was able to fight her fear and become an even stronger person even after a devastating accident.

That is courage, that is strength, that is determination.

I have read all the issues and no, she definitely is not a stronger character than she was pre-reboot.

Again, Simone is a good writer and she manages to get good character development out of the situation but it does not change the fact that pre-reboot, she was way smarter, way more courageous (she even faced villains in her wheelchair several times) and a lot less sloppy.

#35 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@sethysquare said:

@Shotgun said:

@DarthShap said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

That is exactly what I felt when I read the DC previews.

Which is why you have to read the book to realise that Barbara was able to fight her fear and become an even stronger person even after a devastating accident.

That is courage, that is strength, that is determination.

I have read all the issues and no, she definitely is a stronger character than she was pre-reboot.

Again, Simone is a good writer and she manages to get good character development out of the situation

I like how new 52 Babs is so awesome. You're right, Gail Simone is a good writer and she manages to get good character development.

#36 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@X9 said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

For the last time...when she was Oracle she was OLDER, which means OF COURSE she was mature and more confident ¬¬

New 52 Batgirl is so incompetent that she managed to defeat every single villain who stood in her way, without further help. AND is kicking ass with the Birds of Prey, as the team second leader. AND is gonna be a guest star in TT.

Furthermore, Babs is the only one in Bat Family who actually questions her methods and her influence among the ones who have nothing (thieves of smaller things, forgotten minors, etc). It that's not maturity, I don't know what is.

About her ability to walk...if she ever comes back to that damn wheelchair, as much as I love Babs, I'm quitting. Enough background stories.

Yes, she was older. Who said the de-aging was not part of the problem? The timeline makes absolutely no sense and years of character development are gone.

Also, I meant incompetent in comparison to how she was portrayed pre-reboot. Oracle was always reliable and pretty much never made any mistake. She definitely was not this sloppy character who half of the time only manages to survive by cheer luck.

#37 Posted by X9 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@X9 said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

For the last time...when she was Oracle she was OLDER, which means OF COURSE she was mature and more confident ¬¬

New 52 Batgirl is so incompetent that she managed to defeat every single villain who stood in her way, without further help. AND is kicking ass with the Birds of Prey, as the team second leader. AND is gonna be a guest star in TT.

Furthermore, Babs is the only one in Bat Family who actually questions her methods and her influence among the ones who have nothing (thieves of smaller things, forgotten minors, etc). It that's not maturity, I don't know what is.

About her ability to walk...if she ever comes back to that damn wheelchair, as much as I love Babs, I'm quitting. Enough background stories.

Yes, she was older. Who said the de-aging was not part of the problem? The timeline makes absolutely no sense and years of character development are gone.

Also, I meant incompetent in comparison to how she was portrayed pre-reboot. Oracle was always reliable and pretty much never made any mistake. She definitely was not this sloppy character who half of the time only manages to survive by cheer luck.

You're ignoring the whole context and, again, she's YOUNGER. Young people do make more mistakes.

It was not Gail's decision to de-age her, it happened with pretty much every DC character. And it has to happen every once in a while, otherwise there will be no more comic books. And the day iconic characters die because they're old, DC, Marvel and others will bankrupt.

You know what, I'm tired of keeping rabbiting on about that issue. I'm liking the New 52 Batgirl and I'll continue to post things that are related to her here. If you don't like it, then at least stop saying that in every single topic, I got it already.

#38 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently, Batgirl was the highest selling comic book with a female lead in September... just a thought.

#39 Edited by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@X9 said:

@JSAVen said:

: @cameron83 said:

I hated her as oracle,she was basically useless.

It's his opinion, dude, not everyone liked her as Oracle ¬¬

Personally, I never bought Bat Family's "need" to have a super hacker. It always felt like an excuse, a gap they created to be filled with a physically handicapped character. They never had a super hacker before as well as they don't have it now and they're doing fine. Alfred has always been their Oracle for that matter...

Maybe they did not need a hacker in the past because GPS, databases and the Internet only became gigantic in the past twenty years. Just saying.

Of course, Barbara become Oracle because she was in a wheelchair but that does not mean that Batman does not need her. In the XXIst century, if he wants to do detective work more efficiently than the police, he is going to need a great hacker.

#40 Posted by X9 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

Apparently, Batgirl was the highest selling comic book with a female lead in September... just a thought.

It's accurate. Told you guys that many people like her current title.

They don't have it now and the issues are great.

And, I don't want it to sound as I'm being rude, but I'm done talking about Oracle and pre-52. It's over and I like the New 52 Batgirl.

#41 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@X9 said:

@DarthShap said:

@X9 said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

For the last time...when she was Oracle she was OLDER, which means OF COURSE she was mature and more confident ¬¬

New 52 Batgirl is so incompetent that she managed to defeat every single villain who stood in her way, without further help. AND is kicking ass with the Birds of Prey, as the team second leader. AND is gonna be a guest star in TT.

Furthermore, Babs is the only one in Bat Family who actually questions her methods and her influence among the ones who have nothing (thieves of smaller things, forgotten minors, etc). It that's not maturity, I don't know what is.

About her ability to walk...if she ever comes back to that damn wheelchair, as much as I love Babs, I'm quitting. Enough background stories.

Yes, she was older. Who said the de-aging was not part of the problem? The timeline makes absolutely no sense and years of character development are gone.

Also, I meant incompetent in comparison to how she was portrayed pre-reboot. Oracle was always reliable and pretty much never made any mistake. She definitely was not this sloppy character who half of the time only manages to survive by cheer luck.

You're ignoring the whole context and, again, she's YOUNGER. Young people do make more mistakes.

It was not Gail's decision to de-age her, it happened with pretty much every DC character. And it has to happen every once in a while, otherwise there will be no more comic books. And the day iconic characters die because they're old, DC, Marvel and others will bankrupt.

You know what, I'm tired of keeping rabbiting on about that issue. I'm liking the New 52 Batgirl and I'll continue to post things that are related to her here. If you don't like it, then at least stop saying that in every single topic, I got it already.

So you will continue to say good things but I really should stop talking about it? Why?

And I am not saying that it was Gail's decision. I am pretty sure it was not her idea to get of everything she wrote about the character.

Finally, you do realise that characters do not age in real time. If DC does not want a character to age, he just will not. Dick basically only aged twice, once in the 70's and once again in the 80's. There is no need to de-age characters. What you are saying about it being cyclical is just not true. It only happened once before, in 1986, but only to Superman and Wonder-Woman and it had NOTHING to do with them becoming too old.

#42 Posted by goldenbat (13 posts) - - Show Bio

To all the Barbara haters out there, just get off her forum?! Why post negative comments - just go to the Oracle forum and bitch your hearts out!

#43 Posted by Onemoreposter (3938 posts) - - Show Bio

@MadeinBangladesh said:

Im not complaining. I'm new to comics and I'm enjoying babs as Batgirl. If I ever read Cassandra or steph Brown as Batgirl I might change my opinion. Can anyone suggest me any good Steph brown and Cassandra Cain as batgirl trades?

No Mans Land. Its a great read involving the entire Batman family and all of Gotham city. It's the culmination of years of storylines and it's ramification would be felt for years afterwords. Personally I consider it a seminal Batman arch not just for the post-COIE era but for any era of Batman comics. On top of that it heavily influenced the The Dark Knight Rises (accept it's 100 times better). In it we see the first appearance of Cassandra Cain and find out how she becomes Batgirl.

Beyond that I really enjoyed her first ongoing. It could get pretty dark some times. I think she also played a pretty big part in War Games too.

She will always be the best Batgirl. Hell, that girl had the chops to take on kryptonian. Total BAMF.

#44 Posted by velvetmeds (83 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with op and prefer seeing Babs taking the place of Batgirl, and not having Oracle on Batman

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