I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

Hit the nail on the head.

In my opinion Barbara was far more interesting as Oracle, not to mention more useful to the Bat-Family. Currently she adds nothing, though some might disagree, to the Bat-Family. Personally, when The New 52 started, I wish they would have kept Barb as Oracle and had Cassandra return to being Batgirl, having Bard being Cass' mentor. The series, to fit into the idea of these characters being younger, could have focused on Barb having only been Oracle for a year or so since being shot by Joker and Cass only recently taking up the mantle of Batgirl; as the series progressed we would see both Cass and Bard struggle and fit into their new roles and slowly see the two bond into a sisterly bond.
 
At least, that's how I would have liked the series to have been.

@goldenbat said:

1. She's the original. Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown (cough) have made their own spin on the Batgirl persona, but if it weren't for Babs, then Batgirl may never have been invented. When you think about it, Cass and Steph must have thought Babs was pretty cool if they wanted to model themselves after her...
2. She's a red head - who doesn't love a red head in a skin-tight suit kicking butt?
3. She worked with Batman. Cool, huh? And, if that's not enough, she got shot and paralyzed by Joker. But, due to her personal strength and motivation, she got out of the wheel chair and back into the Batgirl suit. That's pretty impressive. And hey, if Batman approves...
4. To date, Babs has never had her own series. Batgirl Vol 1 and 2 were Cassandra Cain, and Vol 3 was Stephanie Brown, so apart from the Batgirl Special (see below) in 1988, she's only featured along side The Dynamic Duo

So, why shouldn't she have her own series in New 52?

1. Being the original doesn't mean that a character is the best, and if you want to get technical, Bette Kane was the first Batgirl.
2. Being a red head doesn't make her any better of a character.
3. Batman approved of Cass and Steph as well.
4. Babs has had plenty of spotlight in Batgirl: Year One and throughout the Birds of Prey series (as the much more awesome and developed Oracle).

I won't hold it a secret that I prefer Babs as Oracle. I most certainly wouldn't have minded Babs returning to the Batgirl mantle, had it not erased the hefty character development she received as Oracle.

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

This post by Blood1991 sums up my other feelings quite nicely.

@goldenbat said:

Sure, Barbara was great as Oracle, but after Huntress left BOP, the team had to split up. After all, part of Oracle's role was to ensure that Huntress contained her killing impulses, and the two definitely formed the backbone of BOP, even though the original team was Oracle and Black Canary. After Huntress left, the BOP would never be the same, whether you had Oracle or not.

Think about it this way: If you had been confined to a wheelchair for years and the technology had arrived that allowed you to walk again, try to convince me that you wouldn't take it? After all, though she was a fan-favorite, Stephanie Brown was a crappy character, with little, if any, backbone. She was simply a blonde in the costume. Nothing more to it. And lets face it, Cassandra Cain could never come back after simply 'handing over' the Batgirl mantle to Stephanie... so what other options did DC have? Keep Stephanie? Nope. So, they brought back Babs - who, so far, has had a pretty damn good couple of issues. Yeah, forget about the 'Grotesque' arc, that was a little pathetic, but the 'Mirror' arc was pretty impressive, and the Night of the Owls tie-in issue was pretty good. Oh yeah, don't forget the most recent arc - 'Knightfall'.

You can't just write off Steph as a "crappy character". She had plenty of development in BQM's Batgirl series, and she gained a pretty big following in her time as Batgirl. You sound like you haven't even read the series.

@goldenbat said:

Oracle was great. No doubt. But for how long can you write a character without evolving her in any way? Oracle has pretty much remained the same character for 20-odd years, and due to the limited possible development, I believe DC made the write choice, making Babs Batgirl again.

Characters can still remain interesting while maintaining somewhat of the status quo, that's pretty much the life of a long lived comic character. And you completely missed my earlier point. As I said, I wouldn't have minded her taking up the BG mantle again, had it not erased her time as Oracle. With Babs becoming Oracle we saw her mature and develop into an even more wonderful character, and she provided this niche usefulness to the Bat-Family as such a character. Babs current status is a slap to the face of people who've been following her character for years and years. With erasing her time as Oracle and putting her back as Batgirl, it's taking one step forward and two steps back.

@Blood1991 said:

I prefer Barbara as Oracle and think throwing out two great characters to put another already established great character back in a cowl was counter productive.

Sums up the feelings of most fans views on the issue. Including my own.

Barbara Gordon is one of my favourite characters but I really do not like what the reboot did to her.

People can argue as much as they want, it is EXACTLY as if Dick Grayson went back to being Robin and erased out of existence Jason, Tim and Damian. You might prefer them to Cass and Steph and you might find the idea ridiculous but it is EXACTLY the same.

Gail Simone is a great writer and she does manage to use what happened to Barbara intelligently but it does not change the fact that the character is just completely different from who she was before Flashpoint.

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

The Killing Joke is by far my favourite comic book but I hated what happened to Barbara. Having said that, Ostrander, Dixon and Simone managed to get some of the best character development in the history of comics out of it.

On top of that, I just find it sickening that DC got rid of ALL their overweight (Amanda Waller, Etta Candy), elder (basically all the remaining original JSA members) and handicapped superheroes (Oracle, Dr Midnight, the Chief, Captain Marvel Jr...)

@MadeinBangladesh: Check out Steph's Batgirl series volumes Batgirl: Batgirl Rising, Batgirl: The Flood, and Batgirl: The Lesson. I don't really know much on Cass.

@MadeinBangladesh said:

Im not complaining. I'm new to comics and I'm enjoying babs as Batgirl. If I ever read Cassandra or steph Brown as Batgirl I might change my opinion. Can anyone suggest me any good Steph brown and Cassandra Cain as batgirl trades?

Even though I've never read it, I've heard that Brian Q. Miller's Batgirl series (starring Stephanie Brown) is pretty good. Collected in:

• Batgirl: Batgirl Rising
• Batgirl: The Flood
• Batgirl: The Lesson

@DarthShap said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

That is exactly what I felt when I read the DC previews.

neither Cass or Steph modeled themselves after Babs....Cass was given the Batgirl mantle by Batman after he took the costume from the Huntress and then Cass gave Steph the title when Bruce told her too...neither of them decided to do it on their own

I don't like the inconsistency of how they handled the bat-family. It should've been Nightwing/Oracle graduated, with Damian/Stephanie as the noobies, and then work Tim, Jason, and Cassandra in later.

@sethysquare said:

@Shotgun said:

@DarthShap said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

That is exactly what I felt when I read the DC previews.

Which is why you have to read the book to realise that Barbara was able to fight her fear and become an even stronger person even after a devastating accident.

That is courage, that is strength, that is determination.

I have read all the issues and no, she definitely is not a stronger character than she was pre-reboot.

Again, Simone is a good writer and she manages to get good character development out of the situation but it does not change the fact that pre-reboot, she was way smarter, way more courageous (she even faced villains in her wheelchair several times) and a lot less sloppy.

@X9 said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

For the last time...when she was Oracle she was OLDER, which means OF COURSE she was mature and more confident ¬¬

New 52 Batgirl is so incompetent that she managed to defeat every single villain who stood in her way, without further help. AND is kicking ass with the Birds of Prey, as the team second leader. AND is gonna be a guest star in TT.

Furthermore, Babs is the only one in Bat Family who actually questions her methods and her influence among the ones who have nothing (thieves of smaller things, forgotten minors, etc). It that's not maturity, I don't know what is.

About her ability to walk...if she ever comes back to that damn wheelchair, as much as I love Babs, I'm quitting. Enough background stories.

Yes, she was older. Who said the de-aging was not part of the problem? The timeline makes absolutely no sense and years of character development are gone.

Also, I meant incompetent in comparison to how she was portrayed pre-reboot. Oracle was always reliable and pretty much never made any mistake. She definitely was not this sloppy character who half of the time only manages to survive by cheer luck.

Apparently, Batgirl was the highest selling comic book with a female lead in September... just a thought.

@X9 said:

@JSAVen said:

: @cameron83 said:

I hated her as oracle,she was basically useless.

It's his opinion, dude, not everyone liked her as Oracle ¬¬

Personally, I never bought Bat Family's "need" to have a super hacker. It always felt like an excuse, a gap they created to be filled with a physically handicapped character. They never had a super hacker before as well as they don't have it now and they're doing fine. Alfred has always been their Oracle for that matter...

Maybe they did not need a hacker in the past because GPS, databases and the Internet only became gigantic in the past twenty years. Just saying.

Of course, Barbara become Oracle because she was in a wheelchair but that does not mean that Batman does not need her. In the XXIst century, if he wants to do detective work more efficiently than the police, he is going to need a great hacker.

@X9 said:

@DarthShap said:

@X9 said:

Oracle was a mature, confident and competent woman. New 52 Batgirl is just a frightened, incompetent teenager.

For the last time...when she was Oracle she was OLDER, which means OF COURSE she was mature and more confident ¬¬

New 52 Batgirl is so incompetent that she managed to defeat every single villain who stood in her way, without further help. AND is kicking ass with the Birds of Prey, as the team second leader. AND is gonna be a guest star in TT.

Furthermore, Babs is the only one in Bat Family who actually questions her methods and her influence among the ones who have nothing (thieves of smaller things, forgotten minors, etc). It that's not maturity, I don't know what is.

About her ability to walk...if she ever comes back to that damn wheelchair, as much as I love Babs, I'm quitting. Enough background stories.

Yes, she was older. Who said the de-aging was not part of the problem? The timeline makes absolutely no sense and years of character development are gone.

Also, I meant incompetent in comparison to how she was portrayed pre-reboot. Oracle was always reliable and pretty much never made any mistake. She definitely was not this sloppy character who half of the time only manages to survive by cheer luck.

You're ignoring the whole context and, again, she's YOUNGER. Young people do make more mistakes.

It was not Gail's decision to de-age her, it happened with pretty much every DC character. And it has to happen every once in a while, otherwise there will be no more comic books. And the day iconic characters die because they're old, DC, Marvel and others will bankrupt.

You know what, I'm tired of keeping rabbiting on about that issue. I'm liking the New 52 Batgirl and I'll continue to post things that are related to her here. If you don't like it, then at least stop saying that in every single topic, I got it already.

So you will continue to say good things but I really should stop talking about it? Why?

And I am not saying that it was Gail's decision. I am pretty sure it was not her idea to get of everything she wrote about the character.

Finally, you do realise that characters do not age in real time. If DC does not want a character to age, he just will not. Dick basically only aged twice, once in the 70's and once again in the 80's. There is no need to de-age characters. What you are saying about it being cyclical is just not true. It only happened once before, in 1986, but only to Superman and Wonder-Woman and it had NOTHING to do with them becoming too old.