Barbara Gordon or Kate Kane?

#1 Posted by divingfalcon713 (283 posts) - - Show Bio

So I was on a different comic site looking at the fight between Batgirl and Batwoman in the pages of Batgirl #12. Basically, Kate mopped the floor with Barbara. Many of the comments were in clear approval that Kate won the fight, but I was slightly confused. I haven't read any New52 Batgirl in it's entirety yet, but shouldn't Batgirl have hand to hand skills that are near or almost rival Nightwing's? I mean, as one of Batman's proteges, shouldn't she have extensive training in many forms of h2h combat that would outweigh Kate's military training? What do you all think of the outcome of that fight, and if you could, give some reasoning.

Oh, and on a side note, I think it's pretty big of Gail Simone to have her title character get beat up by a guest like that.

#2 Posted by Onemoreposter (4075 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara should be able to take Kate. Kate's a pointless character they're trying to give a point to which is why she's going to get PIS from time to time and defeat characters she shouldn't be able to.

#3 Posted by _slim_ (13308 posts) - - Show Bio

Babs has no h2h skills..

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#4 Posted by _slim_ (13308 posts) - - Show Bio

So Babs is to be an equal to Nightwing when it come to h2h skills..... lol.

Ok.

And I prefer Babs over Kate.

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#5 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

http://feministbatgirl.tumblr.com/post/29062040000/feminist-batgirl-batgirl-12-what-happened-spoiler

Ok there we go

#6 Edited by _slim_ (13308 posts) - - Show Bio

And like I originally said..

@_slim_ said:

Babs has no h2h skills..

She would give Kate a somewhat decent fight, but I don't see what's so wrong with her losing to Kate... whether Babs was trying or not.

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#7 Posted by cameron83 (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

http://feministbatgirl.tumblr.com/post/29062040000/feminist-batgirl-batgirl-12-what-happened-spoiler Ok there we go

well there we go....GO BABS

#8 Edited by The_Tree (7769 posts) - - Show Bio

@_slim_ said:

And like I originally said..

@_slim_ said:

Babs has no h2h skills..

She would give Kate a somewhat decent fight, but I don't see what's so wrong with her losing to Kate... whether Babs was trying or not.

I agree with this. Kate also has military training and has been more active than Babs, what with her having been in a wheelchair for so long. Babs fairly recently just got out of the wheelchair and back into action, I'd assume she probably still has some of that rust from inactivity on her as well.

#9 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

people are actually bothered by this lol O_o

#10 Posted by timelord786 (188 posts) - - Show Bio

Batgirl was trained by batman she would have won if they were both going all out in my opinion.

#11 Edited by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, now that I'm on my computer, I can address this properly, instead of my other screwed up posts. In response to someone on tumblr who commented on how disappointed they were over Babs "losing", Gail Simone responded with the following:

Totally sorry you were disappointed! It’s always a bummer when someone doesn’t like an issue, especially when they have been so supportive.

The issue is being very well reviewed but I completely get what you are saying.

The thing is, it’s not that Barbara lacks confidence in this issue, or that she can’t get a shot in. There’s a difference here, in that Batwoman comes in guns blazing, ready to fight. Batgirl doesn’t WANT to fight.

It’s a different fight from most comic book fights, in that it’s not two people going full-out. Batgirl is reluctant, and she doesn’t really believe that Batwoman is bad. She’s not like Wolverine or Batman, who might throw punches FIRST and figure out if they were necessary later. Throughout the run, we have tried to show Batgirl as having strength, but also being a little smarter and more compassionate than just another cowl-jockey.

If she’s really, really wanted to give Batwoman a fight, she would have. At least that’s my take on it. I’m not saying who would win. But in that moment, it makes sense to me that Batgirl would hesitate.

Hope that makes sense.

Sorry you didn’t care for the issue! :(

So yeah, Babs wasn't actually trying to fight Batwoman there. She was just trying to asses and diffuse the abrupt situation. Had she actually been going all out, things would have ended much differently. In an earlier issue, we saw Babs on equal footing with Nightwing, so that's about where her skill level is. In my honest opinion, Kate, while putting up a good fight, would probably lose eventually against a no-holds-barred Babs. Later in that same issue, she took on all the members of the Disgraced at once and was holding her own just fine before backup arrived.

#12 Posted by divingfalcon713 (283 posts) - - Show Bio

I just want to make it clear that I posted this in a questioning manner. I haven't read Batwoman or Batgirl in the New52 so I don't know how advanced either of these characters are. Even when Barbara was still in the wheelchair she was a good fighter (going from what I saw in pre New52 BoP). I was just curious as to what other people thought of their fight, I'm not bothered that Kate won over Barbara.

#13 Posted by The Stegman (25165 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Kate would take New 52 Babs who honestly hasn't impressed me so far, matter of fact she admitted herself that a few of her fights she won due to luck.

#14 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

jeez

this was hardly a fight

some people just looking for anything to complain about

#15 Posted by TDK_1997 (15005 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara is not such of a good fighter but she can beat Kate no matter how trained she is.

#16 Posted by Queso6p4 (1452 posts) - - Show Bio

@X35 said:

jeez

this was hardly a fight

some people just looking for anything to complain about

True, given the reboot. It's funny how they're also ignoring what happened later on in the issue with those two.

#17 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

My only reasoning is that, having spent so much time in a wheelchair, Barbara has lost some of her tenacity? I know it isn't Nolan-verse, but compare it to how Batman was in The Dark Knight Rises when he first fought Bane. He's just come back from having to use a cane, and he throws everything at Bane, who just laughs at him and mocks him.

#18 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

hey remember when bruce beat dick in a fight in batman #6

#19 Posted by cameron83 (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: but her fighting skills are still supposed to be far superior to batwomans...basically in everything batgirl should've beat her in

#20 Posted by BatWatch (2830 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara was a good sparring match for Dick while she was in a wheelchair. I can't imagined her getting mopped up by a relative noob unless she was still having trouble adjusting to having her lower half back. I'm not very knowledgeable about Kane, but I thought she merely had theory training until she got in the field a year or so ago.

#21 Posted by cameron83 (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

just saying something...barbara can beat kate in the wheelchair (not saying kate is bad,but when it comes to a batman family memeber,her fighting shouldn't even be that much of a challenge,i feel even damian can take down kate,even due to his size and agility,due to his small size as an asset.)

but still,kate is a good fighter,but when compared to a batfamily member,she shouldn't even be a problem

#22 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34018 posts) - - Show Bio

this thread......

#23 Edited by Saren (25917 posts) - - Show Bio

Babs is not a match for Dick in any possible way. Sure, she can fluster him for a while when he's not really trying to fight her, but her fighting skills are mediocre, and that is a generous description. Her "fighting skills" while in the wheelchair during BOP that people are raving about were almost always against no-name thugs or other mediocre fighters like Tarantula, who was easily one-shotted by a drugged and injured Nightwing. She never had any incredible skills even before the wheelchair, and Nightwing's showings are better than hers in every possible way. Her best showing ever, if one exists, would probably match one of Dick's average showings. Seriously, the only way to maintain a straight face while claiming that Babs is on equal footing with Dick based on one issue in Batgirl's book is if you have never read any of Dick's previous showings, or even any of Barbara's pre-wheelchair showings.

Why are people complaining about Kate being inexperienced? Babs was no great shakes at H2H combat in the first place, building up Kate by having her defeat a character with unremarkable skill is hardly something to get into an uproar about. I can understand the raised eyebrows if Kate went toe-to-toe with Batman or Shiva or someone like that, but she didn't. She defeated a woman who was stomped by Huntress when they fought, and Huntress is an equally unremarkable H2H fighter. Honestly, where is this nonsense about Babs being a competent fighter coming from? Any serious member of the Batclan would beat her in an all-out fight with varying degrees of ease, barring perhaps Damian. Her showings aren't even better than Catwoman's.

I don't know, maybe it's just the fact that I like Kate a lot more than I do Babs, but I can honestly say that she's nowhere near any of the other prominent Bats in terms of H2H competence. There's no reason Kate can't beat her. And Simone can say what she wants, honestly. Anyone who's read Catman's stuff pre-Secret Six should know how much she drums up a character whose book she's writing regardless of whether that character has any prior showings that match the stuff she writes. Writers always have a justification for anything, even if it doesn't match what actually happened in the comic. Dwayne McDuffie actually managed to have a justification for Black Panther arm-barring Silver Surfer, of all things.

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#24 Posted by X9 (767 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

Okay, now that I'm on my computer, I can address this properly, instead of my other screwed up posts. In response to someone on tumblr who commented on how disappointed they were over Babs "losing", Gail Simone responded with the following:

Totally sorry you were disappointed! It’s always a bummer when someone doesn’t like an issue, especially when they have been so supportive.

The issue is being very well reviewed but I completely get what you are saying.

The thing is, it’s not that Barbara lacks confidence in this issue, or that she can’t get a shot in. There’s a difference here, in that Batwoman comes in guns blazing, ready to fight. Batgirl doesn’t WANT to fight.

It’s a different fight from most comic book fights, in that it’s not two people going full-out. Batgirl is reluctant, and she doesn’t really believe that Batwoman is bad. She’s not like Wolverine or Batman, who might throw punches FIRST and figure out if they were necessary later. Throughout the run, we have tried to show Batgirl as having strength, but also being a little smarter and more compassionate than just another cowl-jockey.

If she’s really, really wanted to give Batwoman a fight, she would have. At least that’s my take on it. I’m not saying who would win. But in that moment, it makes sense to me that Batgirl would hesitate.

Hope that makes sense.

Sorry you didn’t care for the issue! :(

So yeah, Babs wasn't actually trying to fight Batwoman there. She was just trying to asses and diffuse the abrupt situation. Had she actually been going all out, things would have ended much differently. In an earlier issue, we saw Babs on equal footing with Nightwing, so that's about where her skill level is. In my honest opinion, Kate, while putting up a good fight, would probably lose eventually against a no-holds-barred Babs. Later in that same issue, she took on all the members of the Disgraced at once and was holding her own just fine before backup arrived.

This.

But poor Gail, she still hasn't realized that comic book readers misunderstand what writers do most of the times XP

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