Barbara Gordon - Batgirl or Oracle?

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#51 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

Stephanie Brown is the fifth batgirl?...I thought barbara was the current batgirl?

Yes barbara is the current batgirl

Whats the confusion about?

#52 Edited by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara is the fourth Batgirl, Stephanie Brown is the fifth?...my mind says Stephanie should be the current Batgirl, no?

#53 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

Barbara is the fourth Batgirl, Stephanie Brown is the fifth?...my mind says Stephanie should be the current Batgirl, no?

Barbara is the second batgirl, not the fourth one

Steph is the fifth batgirl because shes the last person to use the batgirl name, doesnt mean shes the current batgirl though

#54 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

ive read the Batgirl page here on comic vine...theres been more than two batgirl versions, if Barbara is the second batgirl, who was the first?

#55 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

ive read the Batgirl page here on comic vine...theres been more than two batgirl versions, if Barbara is the second batgirl, who was the first?

Bette kane, but shes not the first batgirl anymore they erased that some time ago

Now barbara is the first batgirl

#56 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

cool cool!

so theres just Stephanie Brown and Barbara Gordon, then what about Batwoman?

#57 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

cool cool!

so theres just Stephanie Brown and Barbara Gordon, then what about Batwoman?

The batgirls have been: barbara gordon, helena bertinelli (huntress) for a short time, cassandra cain and stephanie brown

Theres only two batwomen, kathy kane the original (deceased) and kate kane, the current batwoman

#58 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

I count four Batgirls on that names list you posted...isnt there supposed to be five

So theres actually one Batwoman Kate Kane. great :)

#59 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

I count four Batgirls on that names list you posted...isnt there supposed to be five

So theres actually one Batwoman Kate Kane. great :)

Yes i didnt post the first batgirl bethy kane because its not in continuity anymore

And yes currently theres only one batwoman because the previous one is dead

#60 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

okay! that clarifies things up! I can understand DC thought "wow were getting out of hands with all these different people being the wearing the same uniform lol...

goos they trimmed it down. I like it.

#61 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

What do you mean it never evolved? I just showed you it did. Someone did not do his research.

The stuff you are saying about war casualties has nothing to to with the topic. "Those damn women do not know what it is like to go to war" Riiiiight...OK.

I do not know why you want to talk about villains either. Villains often get what they deserve. It has little to do with gender.

For heroes and their side characters, it is different and that is where there usually is a big difference in treatment between man and women. Most times, when something bad happens to a man, the story will be about how he overcame it (Batman: Venom or Knightfall) but when something happens to a woman, you do not necessarily get a big fightwhere the woman defends herself and the story will more often than not be about how the man reacts to that situation (Killing Joke, Identity Crisis, Death of the New Gods, Green Lantern in Action Comics Weekly, War Games, Longbow Hunters, Cry for Justice, Blitz...).

Finally, I fail to see how one example can invalidate an entire list and an entire concept. And I would not call being possessed empowering.

Paragraph by paragraph.

v.v It didn't evolve. If it "evolved" it wouldn't have dubbed "Girls in refrigerators" while simultaneously talking about "superheroines" as part of the definition from the beginning. Your contention was that it evolved to include non-heroines which is shown to be wrong from the outset.

No, that is not what I said. What I said is that the people who make these types of shitty lists treat men as objects and ignore that they are actually victims more times than not while simultaneously taking a males victim status as their own. It had nothing to do with women not in war.

So now you are switching back to what you said the list wasn't about...ok. Well that's a lie to begin because now we have to look at HEROINES and the defining characteristic of a HERO is that they FIGHT. Get it. By definition you are wrong. What you are arguing for and then using as examples is all out of whack. Killing Joke for example, Barbara Gordon isn't a heroine at that point and by definition Barbara overcame that by becoming Oracle. Identity Crisis what's her name overcame what happened to her and acted out. That was character growth. Granted it was to the negative, but you get to call character growth that you don't like not character growth. The next two i don't know what you are referring to. Stephanie Brown did something stupid and she, again, by definition was just randomly depowered or what not and the implication that gender had anything to do with the story itself is more an indictment of those who would see it that way (even though i would agree in general that the whole "no female robin" thing was bs and might qualify as sexism, but not belong to this list) and I'm not sure what you're referring to by the rest.

The fact of the matter is that that list is full of blind points and points more towards "i don't like the growth" rather than "she is just being used as a victim." And several points on the list such as Wonder Woman being depowered is silly. Wonder Woman hasn't had a consistent canon ever and when there is a depowering/empowering it is almost always editorial mandate or moving back to what is the standards in the general public. When I think of Wonder Woman I don't think of her as a goddess on the level of the pantheonic gods so I would never suspect she would be on that power level. The idea that that is a depowerment is dumb and is along the same lines as saying Jason was victimized because he no longer got to use the Dragon Shield and Dagger.

That all being said. Let's say the idea behind the term is actually true, it wouldn't surprise me. Men evolved to protect women. Women evolved to protect themselves and children while seeking aid from men. It would be natural for us to put women in the victim role because that is how human psychology has developed. If you want a response you put a woman in the victim role. This is known in marketing and it is bares out in research as well. People respond to women, girls, females, more strongly and quicker than they respond to males, boys, men so when I as a writer want to bring about a stronger emotion that won't be passed over as quickly I'd use a female rather than a male as a victim. I'm not sure how well some of you are at actually imagining, but if you can just for a moment, take a look at Batman the Dark Knight. replace all the little kids, which incidentally are female and replace them with males in your head. And then just for a chuckle, change Scarecrow to a woman... Guess what happens. You have a hell of a lot more sympathy for scarecrow and less for the little kids.

#62 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormbox said:

@FatihBATMAN said:

Barbara is the fourth Batgirl, Stephanie Brown is the fifth?...my mind says Stephanie should be the current Batgirl, no?

Barbara is the second batgirl, not the fourth one

Steph is the fifth batgirl because shes the last person to use the batgirl name, doesnt mean shes the current batgirl though

Original Batgirl = ???

Bat-Girl = Bette Kane (apparently not true in DCnU)

Batgirl 1 = Barbara Gordon

Batgirl 2 = Helena Bertinelli (No longer exists in DCnU)

Batgirl 3 = Cassandra Cain (Might not exist in DCnU)

Batgirl 4 = Stephanie Brown (Might not exist in DCnU)

Basically only Barbara Gordon was Batgirl in current continuity and the others have all been wiped out of existence or had their canon changed so it never happened.

#63 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

I like it that way better durakken!

#64 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

I like it that way better durakken!

I guess it's ok expressed that way... but if you mean in terms of liking it canon wise I prefer the former, because it is in general better with better over all characters that have grown since being introduced

#65 Posted by Dernman (13969 posts) - - Show Bio

No question Oracle 

#66 Posted by ComicMan24 (147014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dernman said:

No question Oracle

This. Going back to being Batgirl seems like such a big step back for her.

#67 Edited by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

i like this more because this is "updated" one question what is DCnU?

#68 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

Batgirl. DUH!!!!!!!!!

#69 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

third tier ? is that a bad thing tierwise?

#70 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

third tier ? is that a bad thing tierwise?

yes. sadly stephanie brown is a third tiered batgirl and should be washed outta all of our minds asap.

Babs is the true batgirl

#71 Posted by BatWatch (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

I most definitely consider her more Oracle, but I suspect a lot of peoples' opinion of her proper role will depend on where they first saw her. On that note, I originally saw her in the animated series, but in comics, I first saw her as Oracle, and that is how I came to think of her.

She has had a much more prominent role as Oracle leading the Birds and coordinating nearly all superhero operations on the planet than she ever had as Batgirl who occasionally takes down a thug. Both from a legacy perspective and from a practical perspective, I think she should have remained Oracle.

Maybe we can hope Joker shoots her again in Death of a Family. (chuckles)

@sethysquare said:

@FatihBATMAN said:

third tier ? is that a bad thing tierwise?

yes. sadly stephanie brown is a third tiered batgirl and should be washed outta all of our minds asap.

Babs is the true batgirl

I originally disliked Stephanie Brown, but she grew on me with time. I agree that she is third tier to use your terms. I personally think of her as B-string. Regardless, you are right in that her skills just are not on the level of the other members of the Bat Clan, but that is what I came to admire about her. She survived in the superhero game for one reason and one reason only, she is persistent. Her scrappy enthusiasm and dedication pusher her past even the largest mistakes.

I do not care if she is Batgirl, but I do hope she gets back in the comic book world at some point.

#72 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

@FatihBATMAN said:

i like this more because this is "updated" one question what is DCnU?

The new dc universe, after flashpoint

#73 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

Right...gotta read flashpoint then..

#74 Posted by PaperDemon (576 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle. She is a big help to batman...Batgirl=Ehhhh.

#75 Posted by haydenclaireheroes (8750 posts) - - Show Bio

I think she is seen more as Batgirl especially to non comic book fans. In my opinion, I also see her more as Batgirl especially since that is who she is right now in the New 52. I loved her as Oracle, but I am enjoying her stories now also.

#76 Posted by BlackWind (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle. Batgirl reached her full potential a long time ago, and anyone could have filled that role. Oracle was something unique.

#77 Posted by Ironhawk22 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

Barbara isn't even the "original" Batgirl anyway.

#78 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ironhawk22 said:

Barbara isn't even the "original" Batgirl anyway.

yeah, she didnt even started as a comic book character

just on some campy TV show

#79 Posted by Mercy_ (92075 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle, not even a question.

Moderator
#80 Posted by Ironhawk22 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

Bette Kane is the OTB! One true Batgirl! Babs is just a second tier Batgirl compared to the all mighty Bette Kane :D

#81 Posted by X9 (746 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, this again?

Gosh, that really, really sucks....it's been done so many times that I can actually tell what each of you guys think without even reading this thread XD

#82 Posted by DjBest02 (155 posts) - - Show Bio

I said this once and I am going to say it again, Barbara Gordon can be both! I mean what's wrong with the fact that she's Batgirl now? I completely understand that right now she isn't living up to her full potential but, honestly I don't see why can't she be both. I honestly don't know what is Ms. Simone's direction, but if I were writing I wouldn't mind mixing up her computer work with her crime fighting. I mean look at Beast from the X-Men. He was both a scientist AND a warrior. I can't understand why they don't do that with Barbara. Cassandra was a great Batgirl, but just like Barbara, putting her in that mantle again devolutionizes the character (Black Bat suits her more, I think) , if anyone can is more adept to be Batgirl, its Stephanie Brown, but since she isn't, lets not hate on Babs.

#83 Posted by X9 (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@DjBest02 said:

I said this once and I am going to say it again, Barbara Gordon can be both! I mean what's wrong with the fact that she's Batgirl now? I completely understand that right now she isn't living up to her full potential but, honestly I don't see why can't she be both. I honestly don't know what is Ms. Simone's direction, but if I were writing I wouldn't mind mixing up her computer work with her crime fighting. I mean look at Beast from the X-Men. He was both a scientist AND a warrior. I can't understand why they don't do that with Barbara. Cassandra was a great Batgirl, but just like Barbara, putting her in that mantle again devolutionizes the character (Black Bat suits her more, I think) , if anyone can is more adept to be Batgirl, its Stephanie Brown, but since she isn't, lets not hate on Babs.

I can totally see your point.

Yeah, she could work like YJ Robin did in the first season. He was always the one who broke into computer systems, unlocked doors, searched info, etc, but he was still part of the action.

I guess that when she reaches that point, she'll take on a new hero identity and leave Batgirl's cape to someone else.

#84 Posted by FatihBATMAN (1389 posts) - - Show Bio

oracle :D

#85 Edited by ngroove (321 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP...not worth arguing anymore here, but will say BATGIRL is more exciting!

#86 Posted by vernierhawk001 (514 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: Honestly, I think I would like to see her grow into the Oracle role again (seeing as how that has been taken away from her, I think, in New 52). But I'd like to see her have all the prominence and tech savvy of Oracle while still being mobile and kicking butt. Also, and this is a little off-topic, but I'd like to see her claim the role of Batwoman (either symbolically or physically) as she grows up. I honestly can't stand the idea of one of a Batwoman running around who has such little significance to the Family that she's not even be mentioned in DoTF. The concept of the character honestly makes no sense to me

#87 Posted by growl_kid (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle definitely

#88 Posted by RizeOracle (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle's role began to diminish toward the end of Birds of Prey vol. 2. As much as I loved the character, I can't really think what more she could do as Oracle and besides, I am really enjoying seeing her as a more "active" member of the Birds.

#89 Posted by akbogert (3150 posts) - - Show Bio

I've never read a comic with her as Oracle, but I still feel like that's what she ought to be. Nevermind how remarkably convenient her recovery was. Having followed Gail Simone on Twitter and Tumblr for a while now, I've seen just how much having a handicapped, powerful character meant to a lot of people, and that alone is reason enough to hate the change. That said, if she's going to be up and about, it makes sense that she would want to be in on action again. So from a character perspective, it makes sense that she would want to be Batgirl again. I will acknowledge that her seemingly never having been Oracle is a little troubling; nothing particularly brilliant or hackerish has presented itself in her New 52 run.

As stupid as paralyzing her was (even Alan Moore has apparently admitted that was short-sighted, and I am fully with those who call it fridging because it was done to affect her father with no regard to what effect it might have on Barbara herself), they managed to make something great from that, and I think it's a shame that after all these years they cast that aside.

So, I guess: I wish she were still wheelchair-bound Oracle, but I accept the new Batgirl version of her.

#90 Posted by batfan1939 (362 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is this an either-or decision? Keep her Oracle, but let her do her own legwork (no pun intended). Stephanie can be Batgirl, and Cassandra can be "The One Who is All" (she's outgrown being a sidekick...although TBH, I havent read her "Black Bat" stuff, so that might be okay -- I do hate that name, though). That way, all three have clear identities. Also, Tim needs his own Nightwing-type identity (not just Red Robin; Red X, perhaps?).

#91 Posted by dboyrules2011 (11344 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

Batgirl.

No question. No doubt.

Agreed

#92 Edited by WonderHunter (121 posts) - - Show Bio

I think she's more interesting as a character and more useful as a heroine being Oracle :)

#93 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle.

#94 Posted by Rogan2112 (600 posts) - - Show Bio

Babs was obviously an awesome Batgirl, but when you get down to it she was yet another bat "hanger on". As Oracle she as the eyes, ears, nerve center, and often the brain of two of the most effective crime fighting groups in the DCU, and helped out quite a few others. I think she was far more useful and better at being Oracle. JMHO

#95 Posted by judasnixon (5427 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle. I think Gotham can make do with one less person jumping around on rooftops and throwing batarangs at D-list villains.......

#96 Posted by BlackWind (4007 posts) - - Show Bio

@judasnixon said:

Oracle. I think Gotham can make do with one less person jumping around on rooftops and throwing batarangs at D-list villains.......

Basically this. Everything Babs could do on the streets, there are quite a few who could do it better. As Oracle she offered something unique and different.

#97 Edited by Jayc1324 (5139 posts) - - Show Bio

She was batgirl originally and she's batgirl now. Whenever I think of Barbara I think of the first batgirl, not oracle

#98 Posted by War Killer (19475 posts) - - Show Bio
Barbara Gordon as Oracle

And

Cassandra Cain as Batgirl

#99 Edited by Mercy_ (92075 posts) - - Show Bio

Oracle, no question.

Moderator
#100 Edited by Batmanx2005 (372 posts) - - Show Bio

*flips coin* I prefer batgirl

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