What would people think of an all-black cast of MIGHTY AVENGERS?

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Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

Concept:

An Avengers roster with all-black membership, assembled in addition to other teams for the purpose of promoting Marvel's black characters.

Explanation:

The thought of a book/team like this hit me during this thread here, which was about creating a mostly POC Justice League. (Something like what Milestone did where they set out to create a very diverse group of heroes.) In that thread, the idea of an all POC super team was raised, and I argued that such a team would be justified and beneficial. I think there are more than enough POC comic book heroes, or even more specifically black heroes, to create a quality all-POC or all-black team. And I think that if people doubt that, then it might just be worth doing. I know not everyone will agree.

The point would be to show—not that you shouldn't have whites or that teams should be segregated by race—but that there are so many worthy black characters that you should have no problem putting such a team together. Too often we see limits on how many black characters you can have on page at one time lest it be deemed a "black book" or a "minoriteam". Or, when a traditionally white mantle or team-slot gets passed on to a POC character, we have to hear that such a character was added only because of their race (see: Cyborg forums). So why not just answer these objections head on?

This kind of book--highlighting a particular demographic--has already been done with some success with all-female books: AME-COMI GIRLS, HER-OES, BIRDS OF PREY, the pending FEARLESS DEFENDERS, and others. This just shifts the focus to combating racial disparity rather than gender disparity. As for "why Avengers?" I just chose Avengers because the previous thread was DC, so why not do Marvel? And any old name will do (as long as it's not some sort of pun) so I went with "Mighty Avengers" which isn't currently being used.

Finally, this book would not be "about" being black. Certainly the topic of race would and should come up, but the point is to show that you can create a great Avengers book that stands up alongside any other Avengers book, but with an all-black cast. And that doing so let's you showcase some of these characters that for whatever reason aren't normally put together in one room.

Members:

Implementation:

I think the best way to do a book like this is to approach the reasons for getting such a book together directly. I don't think you gain anything by dancing around it or trying to think up a reason why a group of all-black superheroes would just happen to wind up working together. The fans would argue about such a book, so make the characters in the book mirror those arguments as well.

So, I would have Falcon and War Machine (prominent in past or upcoming Marvel films), set out to create a new roster of all-black heroes for the same reasons as the book would exist in the first place: to simply show these heroes in a context where they're working together instead of as members of other teams where they are almost always the minority.

In this book I'd make character development a priority, which is a good idea for any ensemble book, but especially for a book where the goal is to promote characters you don't want them to fall flat. I'd also take the opportunity to dig into the rogues galleries of the various characters and highlight some classic Avengers villains that we haven't seen as much of in a while.

Opening scene:

For the opening scene, I'd do a televised interview with a conservative pundit or pundit stand-in. This would provide a context where it'd be appropriate to get any objections to the concept of such a book/team out in the open and provide opposing viewpoints, if not actual settling the matter.

  • Q: Won't this just promote segregation? What's next, all-Latino? all-Asian? All-gay?
  • Falcon: No, the point is to increase representation. As for similar teams, would that be a bad thing?
  • Q: What about all-white? Wouldn't that be called racist?
  • Falcon: We already have that in some places (make up some state-level initiative teams as examples maybe). This team is a response to the status quo which already provides imbalanced coverage and membership of black superheroes. If we were an all-white group and were forming a team, you wouldn't bother interviewing us about that.
  • Q: I might if the point of the team was to be all white.
  • Falcon: Well that's not—
  • Q: Won't this decrease the effectiveness of the superhero community by taking time away from other teams? And War Machine, aren't you still active in some capacity with the military? Won't this take away from your commitments there?
  • War Machine: This team is in addition to other duties, and those who were too busy to handle another commitment did not join.
  • Q: Won't this put potentially under-qualified heroes on an Avengers team, reducing your effectiveness and possibly getting people killed? Shouldn't the Avengers be held to a strictly merit-based standard?
  • Falcon: There are more than enough qualified black superheroes--and Avengers specifically--that we can create a rounded and effective team from just them. Nobody is on this team simply because they are black.
  • War Machine: The military is also held to a merit-based standard, and yet we've had great success increasing opportunity for under-represented groups. They don't put people in the line of fire unless they're ready, and neither will we.
  • Falcon: And, of course, we will work with anyone if a specific situation calls for it. If we really need Iron Man or Thor or Captain America for something, they're all just a phone call away.
  • Q: Is this even necessary? Is anyone opposed to this?
  • War Machine: No, it's not necessary.
  • Falcon: *side-eyes*
  • War Machine: And look, I took some convincing myself because I don't think it's necessary. But, I do think good can come from it. Another team of superheroes doing good isn't bad.
  • Q: Doesn't this politicize superheroes? People want superheroes to be like first responders--police, fire fighters, EMTs--real heroes who are there to help with no political motivation. They don't necessarily want the NAACP to show up when a monster is attacking New York.
  • Falcon: We can be just as effective at both. Our point is to do the job well, first and foremost, and the message comes from that. That's our 'political message', that we are here and we do the job well.
  • Q: Doesn't this just give the impression that black superheroes need promotion? So doesn't this create the very problem it's supposedly trying to fix? We just re-elected the first black president, is focusing on race now really in anyone's best interest?
  • Falcon: *eye roll*
  • War Machine: *raised eyebrow*

Afterward:

  • War Machine: Well that went...well?
  • Falcon: What a jackass!

Possible story hooks:

  • As Falcon and War Machine try to assert control of the team, tensions develop with other members who start to feel like the whole team is actually an attempt by SHIELD to bring unaffiliated heroes in line with their agenda. (Concern is especially voiced by Blade and Power Man.)
  • Ex-spouses Storm and Black Panther deal with the very real frustrations of membership on the same team, but both are too proud to walk away and let the other "win". Frenzy starts hitting on BP to piss Storm off. Storm is pissed off.
  • Power Man is also pissed off because he feels like people are treating him as an upstart wannabe and that they were really trying to recruit Luke Cage (which maybe they were). He's also being attacked by the media because he's young and brash and not as well known as the others.
  • Storm's involvement in X-Force is revealed, at least within the team. Falcon and War Machine are conflicted as they view this as true vigilantism while the rest kinda shrug it off. Especially Blade who is basically like "Look, I kill vampires in my free time. I kill people for catching a disease. Why do you guys not think that's weird? If you walk into a room and you don't see me, you should probably assume I'm out murdering people for being vampires."
  • A bloodied Captain Britain and Spitfire show up on their doorstep looking for Blade. Baron Blood is back again and making a nuisance. (I'll admit this is pretty much me just wanting MI:13 back.)
  • Black Panther sees a chance to get revenge on Namor for the events of AvX and takes it. The team, and especially Storm, has to choose sides in a potential war between Atlantis and Wakanda.
  • Doctor Doom. Because he's still pissed over what happened in DOOMWAR (which was awesome).
  • Various classic Avengers villains that haven't been seen as much lately: Nightmare, Ultron, Kang, Count Nefaria, etc.

So, what does everyone think? Is this a good idea? Is this just tokenism writ large? Would this book sell? I just get frustrated with some elements of comic book fandom who cry foul at any attempt to increase diversity or showcase POC characters. I think a book like this would combat that mentality within the comic book community.

#1 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

#2 Posted by Mutant God (3079 posts) - - Show Bio

I say sure but they need a token white character

#3 Edited by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

Well, I wouldn't say it was pointless. Well, I guess obviously I wouldn't or I wouldn't have written the blog. I would argue the point would be clear, to show how many quality black characters Marvel has.

However, if you're saying that this isn't a necessary goal, or achieving that goal would be better handled in another way (on existing teams), then I think those are valid arguments even though I disagree with them. Or if you feel this type of book would actually be detrimental to achieving that goal that could be a valid argument although I'd of course want to know why you thought so.

Regardless, thanks for reading what turned out to be a much longer post than I anticipated.

#4 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mutant God said:

I say sure but they need a token white character

Any reason why? I mean, tokenism is something to be avoided, right?

Although you could pretty easily add Cloak and have Dagger as an unofficial extra member if you really wanted that. Cloak would be a useful addition to the team, but he doesn't seem to do anything without Dagger involved.

#5 Posted by NazarethSavage (214 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel owes us one but the backlash from and idea like this wouldn't be kind to them. It's an accepted double standard when you do it for female characters because it can still be racially diverse at least even if the genders aren't mixing. I would just like for Marvel to have black characters on their teams and give them roles that help grow their popularity, that's all.

#6 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Falcon leading Black Panther? No way I can see this

If for some reason Marvel wanted their Black Team (I also am not for any all anything team) I could see Black Panther deciding that Wakanda needed their own version of the Avengers to protect its interests and he could not do it all alone.

#7 Edited by Mutant God (3079 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@Mutant God said:

I say sure but they need a token white character

Any reason why? I mean, tokenism is something to be avoided, right?

Although you could pretty easily add Cloak and have Dagger as an unofficial extra member if you really wanted that. Cloak would be a useful addition to the team, but he doesn't seem to do anything without Dagger involved.

No reason just thought it would be funny

Sure on Cloak and Dagger since they are not doing anything, also Storm's dealing with Mutant issues so I say replace her with Photon, and War Machine is helping Iron Man so replace him with Blue Marvel.

And add in Patriot as the rookie member

#8 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34979 posts) - - Show Bio

Can we also get an all asian team? and an all white team?

#9 Posted by NazarethSavage (214 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jonny_Anonymous said:

and an all white team?

Oh, you mean the regular Avengers?
#10 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@NazarethSavage said:

Marvel owes us one but the backlash from and idea like this wouldn't be kind to them. It's an accepted double standard when you do it for female characters because it can still be racially diverse at least even if the genders aren't mixing. I would just like for Marvel to have black characters on their teams and give them roles that help grow their popularity, that's all.

Well, I certainly wouldn't argue against that or advocate this as an alternative to that.

@Brazen_Intellect said:

Falcon leading Black Panther? No way I can see this

If for some reason Marvel wanted their Black Team (I also am not for any all anything team) I could see Black Panther deciding that Wakanda needed their own version of the Avengers to protect its interests and he could not do it all alone.

To be honest, I'm not the biggest Falcon fan myself. I would've much preferred Luke Cage in the leading slot for a team like this to Falcon (and that probably comes across in my dialogue snippet), but 1) Luke Cage is benched currently, and 2) Falcon is going to be rising in prominence with his introduction in the second Avengers film. Also, if either BP or Storm were leading the team, I don't see how the other would want to be on it. And I don't think it's really necessary as they're both leading teams in other books.

As for a Wakanda heroes team, I think that would work but it wouldn't have as many big names.

@Mutant God said:

@fodigg said:

@Mutant God said:

I say sure but they need a token white character

Any reason why? I mean, tokenism is something to be avoided, right?

Although you could pretty easily add Cloak and have Dagger as an unofficial extra member if you really wanted that. Cloak would be a useful addition to the team, but he doesn't seem to do anything without Dagger involved.

No reason just thought it would be funny

Sure on Cloak and Dagger since they are not doing anything, also Storm's dealing with Mutant issues so I say replace her with Photon, and War Machine is helping Iron Man so replace him with Blue Marvel

Ah, gotcha. Putting Deadpool or Spider-Man on this team, or at least teasing that, would probably be good fodder for humor.

I do like Photon. Forgot about her. But I think if you had an "all black Marvel" team without Storm on it people would look at you funny. And I think the WM stuff is resolved over in Iron Man, although Blue Marvel would indeed be an interesting pick.

@NazarethSavage said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

and an all white team?

Oh, you mean the regular Avengers?

Indeed:

#11 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

Blue Marvel, Luke Cage, Misty Knight, Storm,War Machine, Monica Rambeau, Black Cap America/Isiah Braddley,Black Panther, Bishop and Blade. Introducing my Black Avengers team,This is a comic I'd buy every month.

#12 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

(editing format for clarity)

@evilvegeta74 said:

  • Blue Marvel,
  • Luke Cage,
  • Misty Knight,
  • Storm,
  • War Machine,
  • Monica Rambeau,
  • Black Cap America/Isiah Braddley,
  • Black Panther,
  • Bishop and
  • Blade.

Introducing my Black Avengers team,This is a comic I'd buy every month.

I'd read that. I couldn't think of a way to get Isaiah Bradley on my team but I love the character. I did almost put Patriot on the team instead of Power Man II. I have no idea what they're planning on doing with Bishop after bringing him back so I hesitated to put him on the team as well, although I loved his old solo title, and the District X title he starred in after that.

#13 Posted by Kellar21 (444 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Blade kind of shunned by the other heroes because he kills people(like the Punisher)while he hunts vampires?

Also there is quite a group of bigoted persons who wouldn't like it(there are idiots for everything in the world).

Also Marvel wouldn't do this for the sake of doing it,it could backfire in an ugly way.

#14 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kellar21: Sorry for the late reply. Somehow I missed this one. Well, yes Blade is a bit, and I do hint at that in the post, but he was able to make it work on the MI:13 book, and considering his exposure to the general audience via his film appearances, I think it'd be wrong to leave him out of a project like this.

#15 Posted by TheCannon (19402 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool roster, though Black Panther should be the leader, not Flacon.

#16 Posted by Blood1991 (8082 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd read it, because I love a good chunk of those characters, but I don't see where it is necessary. I've always felt that diversity in comics should be about people of all different backgrounds, races, and religions working together. It is why I love the X-Men so much especially the Uncanny line up. However, putting street heroes like Misty and Luke, with badge heroes like Photon and Warmachine, and royal/regal characters like Storm and Black Panther is a very interesting mix up of characters regardless of race. The issue would be having a writer willing to explore these differences instead of emphasizing that they are black constantly "Luke Cage writers are famous for that". The more I think about this the more I like this group for their diversity and would love the stories that could be told, but throwing together black characters like this isn't going to look good to the media or some readers.

I would explore the idea with a majority of African American characters and have Hispanic, Caucasian, and Asian add on's as well, but that's just me.

#17 Posted by Video_Martian (5562 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually love this idea :)

#18 Edited by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

Cool roster, though Black Panther should be the leader, not Flacon.

Thanks! And I originally wanted Luke Cage in charge but he's on hiatus. I opted not to pick Black Panther or Storm for the lead as 1) they both already lead their own teams, and 2) I think if either one was leading, the other might not want to join the roster. As for why I chose Falcon, I figure with his film appearance pending he'll be getting more attention and by making him the lead you could connect the whole setup as a SHIELD funded initiative. So Falcon would be in charge (and War Machine would his sort of XO) but they'd answer to Maria Hill or some such.

@Blood1991 said:

I'd read it, because I love a good chunk of those characters, but I don't see where it is necessary. I've always felt that diversity in comics should be about people of all different backgrounds, races, and religions working together. It is why I love the X-Men so much especially the Uncanny line up. However, putting street heroes like Misty and Luke, with badge heroes like Photon and Warmachine, and royal/regal characters like Storm and Black Panther is a very interesting mix up of characters regardless of race. The issue would be having a writer willing to explore these differences instead of emphasizing that they are black constantly "Luke Cage writers are famous for that". The more I think about this the more I like this group for their diversity and would love the stories that could be told, but throwing together black characters like this isn't going to look good to the media or some readers.

I would explore the idea with a majority of African American characters and have Hispanic, Caucasian, and Asian add on's as well, but that's just me.

Thanks, I totally understand where you're coming from. My concern is that, even with an eye toward being very diversified, there's hesitation to put too many black characters together. The fear of going "too far," or some such, with inclusion means we never get to see all these personalities together on the page. So, my thinking was that this would be a way to combat that directly and openly. I know this would come off poorly to some readers and that's why I'd want to anticipate those concerns in the story itself. Also, you make a great point that the writer would need to write their voices as actual characters with this roster, not as stereotypically black. I hadn't even considered that, and I think that's a big plus.

@Video_Martian said:

I actually love this idea :)

Thanks!

#19 Posted by Agent9149 (2868 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCannon said:

Cool roster, though Black Panther should be the leader, not Flacon.

#20 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@NazarethSavage said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

and an all white team?

Oh, you mean the regular Avengers?

Hulk looks white to you?

#21 Posted by NazarethSavage (214 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackReaper said:

Hulk looks white to you?

He doesn't look white to me but he is.
#22 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackReaper said:

@NazarethSavage said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

and an all white team?

Oh, you mean the regular Avengers?

Hulk looks white to you?

Is that a serious argument?

#23 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@BlackReaper said:

@NazarethSavage said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

and an all white team?

Oh, you mean the regular Avengers?

Hulk looks white to you?

Is that a serious argument?

I don't know, is it?

#24 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackReaper said:

@fodigg said:

@BlackReaper said:

@NazarethSavage said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

and an all white team?

Oh, you mean the regular Avengers?

Hulk looks white to you?

Is that a serious argument?

I don't know, is it?

It shouldn't be. It's not a very good one if it is.

#25 Posted by Spellca (102 posts) - - Show Bio

I, honestly, love this idea. Maybe not using the Avenger's name but I can see Black Panther calling upon black heroes to do a job that he feels may be too volatile on the race side like a nationalist movement threatening the stability of his nation..

#26 Edited by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

Make BP the leader and this idea is pretty much perfect

#27 Posted by Spellca (102 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor:

I agree. I also love how two Batman Inc. avatars lined up.

#28 Edited by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

@Spellca: lol I didn't even notice that at first but it is pretty cool that our avs line up like that

#29 Posted by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

I just feel like this is a relevant video

#30 Posted by Juandicimo_Magnifico45 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Can we also get an all asian team? and an all white team?

Exactly. Why an all black group? If you are making an all black group just to make an all black group, would that be discriminant to other race groups? Besides, I thought we are supposed to "color blind" to race.

@fodigg said:

@guttridgeb said:

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

Well, I wouldn't say it was pointless. Well, I guess obviously I wouldn't or I wouldn't have written the blog. I would argue the point would be clear, to show how many quality black characters Marvel has.

However, if you're saying that this isn't a necessary goal, or achieving that goal would be better handled in another way (on existing teams), then I think those are valid arguments even though I disagree with them. Or if you feel this type of book would actually be detrimental to achieving that goal that could be a valid argument although I'd of course want to know why you thought so.

Regardless, thanks for reading what turned out to be a much longer post than I anticipated.

This can easily be done already. Making a race-exclusive team seems like a backwards move. What if there was a white-exclusive team? Is that racist? I feel that having an all black exclusive team is a double standard.

#31 Edited by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@Juandicimo_Magnifico45 said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Can we also get an all asian team? and an all white team?

Exactly. Why an all black group? If you are making an all black group just to make an all black group, would that be discriminant to other race groups? Besides, I thought we are supposed to "color blind" to race.

@fodigg said:

@guttridgeb said:

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

Well, I wouldn't say it was pointless. Well, I guess obviously I wouldn't or I wouldn't have written the blog. I would argue the point would be clear, to show how many quality black characters Marvel has.

However, if you're saying that this isn't a necessary goal, or achieving that goal would be better handled in another way (on existing teams), then I think those are valid arguments even though I disagree with them. Or if you feel this type of book would actually be detrimental to achieving that goal that could be a valid argument although I'd of course want to know why you thought so.

Regardless, thanks for reading what turned out to be a much longer post than I anticipated.

This can easily be done already. Making a race-exclusive team seems like a backwards move. What if there was a white-exclusive team? Is that racist? I feel that having an all black exclusive team is a double standard.

Well, as pointed out earlier in the thread, there are already all-white rosters. The Avengers in Avengers was all-white, in fact. Also, I would argue that even when seeking to put together a diverse group, we never seem to see a whole lot of black characters together on the page lest it be considered a "black book". This is a problem in TV and films as well. Just look at Walking Dead, which cannot introduce a black character without killing the existing black character off. It's like Highlander for black guys on that show or something. It's a problem. Maybe this isn't the only way to address this problem in comics, but the issue does exist.

EDIT: Dwayne McDuffie talks about this in the video @BlackArmor: embedded. He calls it the "rule of three."

#32 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: I miss Dwayne McDuffie. Also worth linking, his mock proposal taking the piss out of Marvel Comics' dismal offerings of black heroes at the time:

(Source: http://www.shadowandact.com/?p=40057)

#33 Posted by Juandicimo_Magnifico45 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@Juandicimo_Magnifico45 said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Can we also get an all asian team? and an all white team?

Exactly. Why an all black group? If you are making an all black group just to make an all black group, would that be discriminant to other race groups? Besides, I thought we are supposed to "color blind" to race.

@fodigg said:

@guttridgeb said:

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

Well, I wouldn't say it was pointless. Well, I guess obviously I wouldn't or I wouldn't have written the blog. I would argue the point would be clear, to show how many quality black characters Marvel has.

However, if you're saying that this isn't a necessary goal, or achieving that goal would be better handled in another way (on existing teams), then I think those are valid arguments even though I disagree with them. Or if you feel this type of book would actually be detrimental to achieving that goal that could be a valid argument although I'd of course want to know why you thought so.

Regardless, thanks for reading what turned out to be a much longer post than I anticipated.

This can easily be done already. Making a race-exclusive team seems like a backwards move. What if there was a white-exclusive team? Is that racist? I feel that having an all black exclusive team is a double standard.

Well, as pointed out earlier in the thread, there are already all-white rosters. The Avengers in Avengers was all-white, in fact. Also, I would argue that even when seeking to put together a diverse group, we never seem to see a whole lot of black characters together on the page lest it be considered a "black book". This is a problem in TV and films as well. Just look at Walking Dead, which cannot introduce a black character without killing the existing black character off. It's like Highlander for black guys on that show or something. It's a problem. Maybe this isn't the only way to address this problem in comics, but the issue does exist.

EDIT: Dwayne McDuffie talks about this in the video @BlackArmor: embedded. He calls it the "rule of three."

I agree that there is a problem. Characters that are not white are few in numbers. However, the point that I am bringing up is that purposely construct a racial exclusive roster is not right. While characters in certain books are mostly white, there are black characters (and other races). Plus, some of these characters are prominently strong like many of the ones you listed for your team. Currently, there are no white exclusive rosters. In no way were the teams constructed just because of race. To do this with a black team, sets a double standard. To say that it should not be done with white characters but it is okay for black characters is not right. I agree that more characters that are not white should be put into the mix. Making characters that reflect the audience is very important, and that includes implementing other races (like the new green lantern SImon Baz).

#34 Posted by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@BlackArmor: I miss Dwayne McDuffie. Also worth linking, his mock proposal taking the piss out of Marvel Comics' dismal offerings of black heroes at the time:

(Source: http://www.shadowandact.com/?p=40057)

LOL, I've never seen that before. McDuffie was a great creator, the comic industry lost something great when he died. Worst part is that would bet money that none of his characters will ever be handled well again

#35 Edited by Mega_spidey01 (3078 posts) - - Show Bio
By Jamie Fay
monica rambeau

i like the concept of a black team, but i wouldn't want it to be lead by the falcon. my line up would go like this. i composed the team similar to the show Leverage where everyone on the team is on there for a specific skill set.

Dagger by Terry Dodson
The King Returns!

1.leader- blue marvel

2. Lieutentnant- Monica Rambeau (photon)

3.teleporter- Cloak

4.spy- Darwin

5.hitter- M (monet)

6.healer- Dagger

7.tech/mastermind Black Panther

#36 Posted by BlackArmor (6138 posts) - - Show Bio

@Juandicimo_Magnifico45 said:

@fodigg said:

@Juandicimo_Magnifico45 said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Can we also get an all asian team? and an all white team?

Exactly. Why an all black group? If you are making an all black group just to make an all black group, would that be discriminant to other race groups? Besides, I thought we are supposed to "color blind" to race.

@fodigg said:

@guttridgeb said:

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

Well, I wouldn't say it was pointless. Well, I guess obviously I wouldn't or I wouldn't have written the blog. I would argue the point would be clear, to show how many quality black characters Marvel has.

However, if you're saying that this isn't a necessary goal, or achieving that goal would be better handled in another way (on existing teams), then I think those are valid arguments even though I disagree with them. Or if you feel this type of book would actually be detrimental to achieving that goal that could be a valid argument although I'd of course want to know why you thought so.

Regardless, thanks for reading what turned out to be a much longer post than I anticipated.

This can easily be done already. Making a race-exclusive team seems like a backwards move. What if there was a white-exclusive team? Is that racist? I feel that having an all black exclusive team is a double standard.

Well, as pointed out earlier in the thread, there are already all-white rosters. The Avengers in Avengers was all-white, in fact. Also, I would argue that even when seeking to put together a diverse group, we never seem to see a whole lot of black characters together on the page lest it be considered a "black book". This is a problem in TV and films as well. Just look at Walking Dead, which cannot introduce a black character without killing the existing black character off. It's like Highlander for black guys on that show or something. It's a problem. Maybe this isn't the only way to address this problem in comics, but the issue does exist.

EDIT: Dwayne McDuffie talks about this in the video @BlackArmor: embedded. He calls it the "rule of three."

I agree that there is a problem. Characters that are not white are few in numbers. However, the point that I am bringing up is that purposely construct a racial exclusive roster is not right. While characters in certain books are mostly white, there are black characters (and other races). Plus, some of these characters are prominently strong like many of the ones you listed for your team. Currently, there are no white exclusive rosters. In no way were the teams constructed just because of race. To do this with a black team, sets a double standard. To say that it should not be done with white characters but it is okay for black characters is not right. I agree that more characters that are not white should be put into the mix. Making characters that reflect the audience is very important, and that includes implementing other races (like the new green lantern SImon Baz).

The thing is that nobody said it shouldn't be done with white characters. It is being done with white characters it's just that nobody thinks it's worth mentioning because in the modern world an all white team isn't seen as weird. The point of this team seems to be to get black and by extension other races to a point where they could have an all one race team up, whether it be for 1 issue or as a series, without people batting an eye. Because for the most part people don't bat an eye at all white teams and there's nothing really all that wrong with that except the no other race can do it. I didn't make this thread so of course my views aren't the same as Fodigg's, this is just how I as a black person interpret what he's trying to do here and i certainly agree with elevating other races to where they can have all one race teams too.

#37 Posted by turoksonofstone (12901 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

I know you kind of addressed this in the dialogue but I still think that its pointless having an all black superhero team for the sake of having an all black team. Same for every other ethnic group.

this and Blue Marvel should be on team IMO

#38 Posted by Juandicimo_Magnifico45 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

The thing is that nobody said it shouldn't be done with white characters. It is being done with white characters it's just that nobody thinks it's worth mentioning because in the modern world an all white team isn't seen as weird. The point of this team seems to be to get black and by extension other races to a point where they could have an all one race team up, whether it be for 1 issue or as a series, without people batting an eye. Because for the most part people don't bat an eye at all white teams and there's nothing really all that wrong with that except the no other race can do it. I didn't make this thread so of course my views aren't the same as Fodigg's, this is just how I as a black person interpret what he's trying to do here and i certainly agree with elevating other races to where they can have all one race teams too.

That's some very good points. It is odd to think that an all white team is nothing out of the normal. I still think though, that race specific teams is not the way to go. Instead of showing equality through separation, it should be equality through integration. Now, if the team was constructed in a natural way, like a family team such as Fantastic Four, than an mono-race team is fine. I do agree that more black (among other races of course) need to be implemented in comics. The best way to do so though, is by introducing new characters and increasing activity and advertisement on current ones.

#39 Posted by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@Juandicimo_Magnifico45 said:

@BlackArmor said:

The thing is that nobody said it shouldn't be done with white characters. It is being done with white characters it's just that nobody thinks it's worth mentioning because in the modern world an all white team isn't seen as weird. The point of this team seems to be to get black and by extension other races to a point where they could have an all one race team up, whether it be for 1 issue or as a series, without people batting an eye. Because for the most part people don't bat an eye at all white teams and there's nothing really all that wrong with that except the no other race can do it. I didn't make this thread so of course my views aren't the same as Fodigg's, this is just how I as a black person interpret what he's trying to do here and i certainly agree with elevating other races to where they can have all one race teams too.

That's some very good points. It is odd to think that an all white team is nothing out of the normal. I still think though, that race specific teams is not the way to go. Instead of showing equality through separation, it should be equality through integration. Now, if the team was constructed in a natural way, like a family team such as Fantastic Four, than an mono-race team is fine. I do agree that more black (among other races of course) need to be implemented in comics. The best way to do so though, is by introducing new characters and increasing activity and advertisement on current ones.

I'm curious, do you have similar concerns for the all-female books that are created specifically to address less prominence for female characters? I mean, I hope you can see the parallels between those books and what I'm trying to do with this concept.

My concern was that it might seem to convoluted to come up with a reason for an all-black team of headliners. Sure, you could introduce new characters as a group pretty easily--your family-of-heroes example is a good one and I think someone on this thread mentioned a home-grown Wakandan super-team which would also work--but part of what I wanted was headliner black characters like the ones on my roster all together on the page, which seems not to happen. Again, you could do exactly my roster and just say these heroes happened to bump into each other while working the same case, but I think you gain more by addressing the issues behind the book within the text itself.

#40 Posted by Juandicimo_Magnifico45 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@Juandicimo_Magnifico45 said:

@BlackArmor said:

The thing is that nobody said it shouldn't be done with white characters. It is being done with white characters it's just that nobody thinks it's worth mentioning because in the modern world an all white team isn't seen as weird. The point of this team seems to be to get black and by extension other races to a point where they could have an all one race team up, whether it be for 1 issue or as a series, without people batting an eye. Because for the most part people don't bat an eye at all white teams and there's nothing really all that wrong with that except the no other race can do it. I didn't make this thread so of course my views aren't the same as Fodigg's, this is just how I as a black person interpret what he's trying to do here and i certainly agree with elevating other races to where they can have all one race teams too.

That's some very good points. It is odd to think that an all white team is nothing out of the normal. I still think though, that race specific teams is not the way to go. Instead of showing equality through separation, it should be equality through integration. Now, if the team was constructed in a natural way, like a family team such as Fantastic Four, than an mono-race team is fine. I do agree that more black (among other races of course) need to be implemented in comics. The best way to do so though, is by introducing new characters and increasing activity and advertisement on current ones.

I'm curious, do you have similar concerns for the all-female books that are created specifically to address less prominence for female characters? I mean, I hope you can see the parallels between those books and what I'm trying to do with this concept.

My concern was that it might seem to convoluted to come up with a reason for an all-black team of headliners. Sure, you could introduce new characters as a group pretty easily--your family-of-heroes example is a good one and I think someone on this thread mentioned a home-grown Wakandan super-team which would also work--but part of what I wanted was headliner black characters like the ones on my roster all together on the page, which seems not to happen. Again, you could do exactly my roster and just say these heroes happened to bump into each other while working the same case, but I think you gain more by addressing the issues behind the book within the text itself.

Yes, I think the same concerns apply to all female books as well. Like I said previously, equality through integration not separation. So much more can be done through this concept. While you have mad some great points, dedicating a team just for a specific race is backwards thinking to me.

#41 Posted by iLLituracy (13494 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Posted by SUNMAN (7265 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see why people are bismerching this idea. It's comics.

Lord knows we've had all white and all female teams before. And even non white superhero teams. It's not too hard to give the a superhero team a logical reason (in a comic book sense) to be together.

So I don't understand the detractors of this team coming from that standpoint.

As for this team its okay. I don't think Storm or Blade work as full time members. Blade only really deals with mystical threats and doesn't care about your average criminals as much. Storm doesn't really hve a repore witht eh rest of the team especially after AvX.

Other than that roster seems fine. Falcon wouldn't be the leader though.

#43 Posted by consolemaster001 (6086 posts) - - Show Bio

Harlem Avengers ?

Fresh Avengers of Bel Air ?

Tyler Perry presents: Avengers ?

Big Mama's Avengers ?

#44 Posted by THORSON (2518 posts) - - Show Bio

2 thumbs up.

#45 Posted by SC (13349 posts) - - Show Bio

First I love your blog. Especially the in character fictional interview bit, I would buy a book of just that just from the character interaction and dialogue. My general personal preference for diversity in comics tends to be any 'all minority' groups work best in arcs or mini series. As applied to gender, race, so on. I would probably almost certainly support a 'all minority' based book anyway but my preference yes, would remain with structing the teams otherwise - chief reason being how many characters I am okay being in two places at once and which characters I would enjoy seeing interact. Would rather have a team with Blue Marvel, Thor and Ms Marvel interact than seperated into alternative teams. Funnily enough last time I picked my own Secret Avengers roster the line up naturally came out as War Machine, Valkyrie, Monica Rambeau, Blue Marvel, Wonder Man, Ares and Elektra, which is just naturally more diverse than most Avengers teams despite being cast blindly. Probably reflects on the TBC

Moderator
#46 Posted by SC (13349 posts) - - Show Bio

CFOP - The differences between myself and most comic book editors and writers. As far as gender teams and race teams, I can see why gender teams can be treated different, only really two sexes, and depending on how you use the term black, well there is the issue of the rest of the people on the globe who either don't fall into a black or white category or don't identify as either. Which as far as my own personal preferences stands as why I am generally more in favor of international teams and national teams having a few 'outsiders' - oh and oh, because such things are fun, my Black Avengers team would be War Machine, Blue Marvel, Monica Rambeau, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Misty Knight, Zephyr and Gauntlet.

Moderator
#47 Posted by ThanoStomp (791 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman takes down this Black JL because he sees them as a threat to his swag.

#48 Posted by TheSwordsman (1954 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThanoStomp said:

Batman takes down this Black JL because he sees them as a threat to his swag.

The OP proposed an all black Avengers team.

Great Idea by the way but Marvel will never do it. The only prominent all anything team will be an all white one until hispanics become the American majority and then they may have an all hispanic group.

#49 Posted by ShadowX (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a series focusing on all black superheros or an all minority team would be perfect. And i love the dialouge you gave. This inspired me. I think i'll make my roster for an all minority team in response. Also its intresting that an all or mostly Robot avengers team is coming before an all/mostly PoC Avengers team

#50 Edited by fodigg (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx said:

I think a series focusing on all black superheros or an all minority team would be perfect. And i love the dialouge you gave. This inspired me. I think i'll make my roster for an all minority team in response. Also its intresting that an all or mostly Robot avengers team is coming before an all/mostly PoC Avengers team

Thanks! Please link your roster once you have it up. I'd love to see it.

(I have to admit I'm really excited for the robot avengers, but good point.)

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