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    Avengers

    Team » Avengers appears in 7693 issues.

    The Avengers are Earth's mightiest heroes and foremost super-team... "There came a day, a day unlike any other, when Earth's mightiest heroes found themselves united against a common threat. On that day, the Avengers were born - to fight the foes no single super hero could withstand! Heed the call, then - for now, the Avengers Assemble!"

    Keep your X-men out of my Avengers

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler: I find Sunfire is the more appropriate choice to join over say Rogue, Havok and Wolverine.

    I guess I think so too. With Havok, at least he's actually been in more stories in which he wasn't an X-man, most notably when he lead X-factor, but also as an inter-dimensional adventurer and leader of the Starjammers, so maybe I just associate less with the X-men than other characters. Like how most people don't think of the X-men when they think of Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, or Firestar, even though those characters all sort of started there.

    Likewise with Rogue, despite being more classic and recognized as an X-man, she had her start as an Avengers villain in the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, like Quicksilver or the Scarlet Witch. I don't see her as being as classic an Avenger as they, but in the way their acceptance into the team set a president to include other young heroes with colorful pasts after the kooky quartet, like Firestar, Justice, or Speed, I'm happy to see the team get a new perspective, and for her to be shown in a new context.

    But, yeah, Sunfire is just the one that seems the most like he would more likely be an Avenger than an X-man. Which is why I have a hard time buying into or being as interested in characters like Wolverine, Storm, Cannonball, or most X-men really, as being actual Avengers.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @decoyelite said:

    I want to see an X-Team that is made up of humans and mutants.

    Seriously, why can't there be any human X-Men? They are trying to work for peace with humans, so why can't humans get involved?

    Except for Longshot, Warlock, Danger, and Warbird, pretty much all of the X-men are human.

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    DecoyElite

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    @decoyelite said:

    @decoyelite said:

    I want to see an X-Team that is made up of humans and mutants.

    Seriously, why can't there be any human X-Men? They are trying to work for peace with humans, so why can't humans get involved?

    Except for Longshot, Warlock, Danger, and Warbird, pretty much all of the X-men are human.

    I meant non-mutants. As mutants usually treat themselves as non-humans now.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @decoyelite said:

    Seriously, why can't there be any human X-Men? They are trying to work for peace with humans, so why can't humans get involved?

    Except for Longshot, Warlock, Danger, and Warbird, pretty much all of the X-men are human.

    I meant non-mutants. As mutants usually treat themselves as non-humans now.

    I don't think they do, but whatever. Besides the characters I mentioned above (who are also not mutants), Captain Marvel was a member of the team, even though she didn't have powers. There have been a few others like Tom Corsi and or Deathlok, but given that mutants are the premise, it makes more sense to have a supporting cast of humans, like Moira MacTaggert or Stevie Hunter, then actually have them as members of the team. Mutant allies, or the like.

    I've actually thought it could be cool to have Luke Cage and/or Jessica Jones as X-men, since, it seems just as likely that their daughter will be a mutant, and these issues will effect her life. I dunno.

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    DecoyElite

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    @oldnightcrawler: Personally I'd like a team that is more about mixing normal humans with mutants. Kinda like Uncanny Avengers but with non-powered heroes. Actually have them working towards the peace side by side like the X-Men always talk about.

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    dernman

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    #56  Edited By dernman

    @decoyelite: Speaking of getting something different and going a bit off topic. I'd like to see the other side of the argument for a change. All we get is the mutant suppressed and humans are bad side of things. I would like a comic that explores what it's like to be human and give good reason for their fear and wanting to take action with defence or control.

    You got mutants blowing up cities with a flick of their wrists. Supposedly hero mutants walking side by side with the bad guys. Believing they are above the law and believing they only answer to themselves. There is a good case for having sentinels and certain registration acts but all we get is the one dimensional evil villains with no reason to sympathise with the character. Damn Magneto is a monster and writers try to make him sympathetic.

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    DecoyElite

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    @dernman: Yeah, I think Marvels did a good job of that and it'd be cool to see more.

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    spider11211

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    #58  Edited By spider11211

    @oldnightcrawler: Personally I'd like a team that is more about mixing normal humans with mutants. Kinda like Uncanny Avengers but with non-powered heroes. Actually have them working towards the peace side by side like the X-Men always talk about.

    Now that sounds like a great story idea!

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler: Personally I'd like a team that is more about mixing normal humans with mutants. Kinda like Uncanny Avengers but with non-powered heroes. Actually have them working towards the peace side by side like the X-Men always talk about.

    That could be really cool. I really dig Uncanny Avengers.

    Do you mean non-powered like Hawkeye, or non-powered like Dr. Kavita Rao?

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    DecoyElite

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    #60  Edited By DecoyElite

    @decoyelite said:

    @oldnightcrawler: Personally I'd like a team that is more about mixing normal humans with mutants. Kinda like Uncanny Avengers but with non-powered heroes. Actually have them working towards the peace side by side like the X-Men always talk about.

    That could be really cool. I really dig Uncanny Avengers.

    Do you mean non-powered like Hawkeye, or non-powered like Dr. Kavita Rao?

    Both. But really I mean S.H.I.E.L.D agents type of non-powered. Good at fights but no powers without equipment of some sort.

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    prinplup45

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    None.

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    GrenadeFlow

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    No X-Man deserves to be an Avenger besides Beast. Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch don't count

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    viin

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    I almost wish Marvel would split there worlds....a world of mutants and a world of super heroes...and then every now again have em cross over somehow. Kinda an Earth 1 and Earth 2 idea. I get tired of seeing Wolverine and Spiderman on every team in marvel.

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    CheeseSticks

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    all of them.

    X-Men should never shame themselves by joining the avengers.

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    tigerkaya

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    @viin said:

    I almost wish Marvel would split there worlds....a world of mutants and a world of super heroes...and then every now again have em cross over somehow. Kinda an Earth 1 and Earth 2 idea. I get tired of seeing Wolverine and Spiderman on every team in marvel.


    This.

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    THORSON

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    keep wolverine out.

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    tigerkaya

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    spider11211

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    #68  Edited By spider11211

    @thorson said:

    keep wolverine out.

    Agreed, I love the character but he is in too much.

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    Dabee

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    Agreed, I love the character but he is in too much.

    No, you are wrong. Everything you say is wrong.

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    tigerkaya

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    @dabee: Nope, he's right Wolverine needs to stick to multiple X-titles and solo titles. I can't stand him in the Avengers.

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    Dabee

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    #71  Edited By Dabee

    @dabee: Nope, he's right Wolverine needs to stick to multiple X-titles and solo titles. I can't stand him in the Avengers.

    No, you are very wrong. Your opinion doesn't matter.

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    tigerkaya

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    @dabee said:

    @tigerkaya said:

    @dabee: Nope, he's right Wolverine needs to stick to multiple X-titles and solo titles. I can't stand him in the Avengers.

    No, you are very wrong. Your opinion doesn't matter.

    Right back attcha.

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    Dabee

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    @dabee said:

    @tigerkaya said:

    @dabee: Nope, he's right Wolverine needs to stick to multiple X-titles and solo titles. I can't stand him in the Avengers.

    No, you are very wrong. Your opinion doesn't matter.

    Right back attcha.

    See, I don't understand what you're saying. I am always right, so what you're saying is confusing.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    personally i feel that the x-men shouldnt be joining the avengers because the last time i check the x-men save the world, worlds, and the universe just as much the avengers. and i dont see the avenger joining up with the x-men so the x-men shouldnt join them. and as for the ones who are currently on the uncanny team or the regular team, i'd call them traitors but that might seem too harsh. but most specifically that label refers to cannonball and sunspot. they were chilling on the beach talking about how they didnt want to fight on either wolverine or cyclops' teams but as soon they get a call from the avengers they come running to them

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    @decoyelite said:

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @decoyelite said:

    Seriously, why can't there be any human X-Men? They are trying to work for peace with humans, so why can't humans get involved?

    Except for Longshot, Warlock, Danger, and Warbird, pretty much all of the X-men are human.

    I meant non-mutants. As mutants usually treat themselves as non-humans now.

    I don't think they do, but whatever. Besides the characters I mentioned above (who are also not mutants), Captain Marvel was a member of the team, even though she didn't have powers. There have been a few others like Tom Corsi and or Deathlok, but given that mutants are the premise, it makes more sense to have a supporting cast of humans, like Moira MacTaggert or Stevie Hunter, then actually have them as members of the team. Mutant allies, or the like.

    I've actually thought it could be cool to have Luke Cage and/or Jessica Jones as X-men, since, it seems just as likely that their daughter will be a mutant, and these issues will effect her life. I dunno.

    Carol never joined, she was invited and was about to accept but then Rogue joined and she freaked out.

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    tigerkaya

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    @avenging_x_bolt said:

    @photowill404 said:

    personally i feel that the x-men shouldnt be joining the avengers because the last time i check the x-men save the world, worlds, and the universe just as much the avengers. and i dont see the avenger joining up with the x-men so the x-men shouldnt join them. and as for the ones who are currently on the uncanny team or the regular team, i'd call them traitors but that might seem too harsh. but most specifically that label refers to cannonball and sunspot. they were chilling on the beach talking about how they didnt want to fight on either wolverine or cyclops' teams but as soon they get a call from the avengers they come running to them

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

    All conveniently mutants, now if they actually accepted superhuman members than I wouldn't get the impression the X-men were speciest.

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    #77  Edited By Avenging-X-Bolt

    @tigerkaya said:

    @avenging_x_bolt said:

    @photowill404 said:

    personally i feel that the x-men shouldnt be joining the avengers because the last time i check the x-men save the world, worlds, and the universe just as much the avengers. and i dont see the avenger joining up with the x-men so the x-men shouldnt join them. and as for the ones who are currently on the uncanny team or the regular team, i'd call them traitors but that might seem too harsh. but most specifically that label refers to cannonball and sunspot. they were chilling on the beach talking about how they didnt want to fight on either wolverine or cyclops' teams but as soon they get a call from the avengers they come running to them

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

    All conveniently mutants, now if they actually accepted superhuman members than I wouldn't get the impression the X-men were speciest.

    Deadpool,Deathlok, Captain/Ms.Marvel,Kylun,Cerise,Amanda Sefton,Mimic,Black Knight,Omega Sentinel,Juggernaut,Sage, Cloak and Dagger,Red Lotus etc were all invited and/or served with the team or one of their spin offs/sub divisions

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    tigerkaya

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    Avenging-X-Bolt

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @avenging_x_bolt said:

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

    All conveniently mutants, now if they actually accepted superhuman members than I wouldn't get the impression the X-men were speciest.

    sure, but would it stop you from complaining about comics you don't even read?

    :P

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    tigerkaya

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    @tigerkaya said:

    @avenging_x_bolt said:

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

    All conveniently mutants, now if they actually accepted superhuman members than I wouldn't get the impression the X-men were speciest.

    sure, but would it stop you from complaining about comics you don't even read?

    I find the sight of a title that has a premise I find insulting and mockery to make everyone written like morons to make other members shine repulsive and worse of all continuing its story from X-force egracious affront. Worst of all is how Havok a member who is downright went from a badass space pirate to now mutant leader asking for assimilation fro mutant kind. Way to go kid screw up the Avengers status in making everyone think their ignorant to mutants even further. This is why mutant problems should be handled by X-men and world saving and universe saving should be handled by Avengers. Its the way things should stay as. That also goes with keeping members exclusive to their teams never mixed.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @tigerkaya said:

    @avenging_x_bolt said:

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

    All conveniently mutants, now if they actually accepted superhuman members than I wouldn't get the impression the X-men were speciest.

    sure, but would it stop you from complaining about comics you don't even read?

    I find the sight of a title that has a premise I find insulting and mockery to make everyone written like morons to make other members shine repulsive and worse of all continuing its story from X-force egracious affront. Worst of all is how Havok a member who is downright went from a badass space pirate to now mutant leader asking for assimilation fro mutant kind. Way to go kid screw up the Avengers status in making everyone think their ignorant to mutants even further. This is why mutant problems should be handled by X-men and world saving and universe saving should be handled by Avengers. Its the way things should stay as. That also goes with keeping members exclusive to their teams never mixed.

    this justification for your intolerance doesn't convince me.

    that you are insulted by the existence of something myself and a lot of other people actually do appreciate and enjoy is irrelevant to me, especially given that it seems based on a perpetually vocal bias that gives me no reason to think you've ever given the book an honest chance.

    it's like trying to justify intolerance with prejudice and ignorance. Actually, no, that's exactly what it is.

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    tigerkaya

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    @tigerkaya said:

    @oldnightcrawler said:

    @tigerkaya said:

    @avenging_x_bolt said:

    you mean besides Firestar, Quicksilver, and Sub-Mariner?

    All conveniently mutants, now if they actually accepted superhuman members than I wouldn't get the impression the X-men were speciest.

    sure, but would it stop you from complaining about comics you don't even read?

    I find the sight of a title that has a premise I find insulting and mockery to make everyone written like morons to make other members shine repulsive and worse of all continuing its story from X-force egracious affront. Worst of all is how Havok a member who is downright went from a badass space pirate to now mutant leader asking for assimilation fro mutant kind. Way to go kid screw up the Avengers status in making everyone think their ignorant to mutants even further. This is why mutant problems should be handled by X-men and world saving and universe saving should be handled by Avengers. Its the way things should stay as. That also goes with keeping members exclusive to their teams never mixed.

    this justification for your intolerance doesn't convince me.

    that you are insulted by the existence of something myself and a lot of other people actually do appreciate and enjoy is irrelevant to me, especially given that it seems based on a perpetually vocal bias that gives me no reason to think you've ever given the book an honest chance.

    it's like trying to justify intolerance with prejudice and ignorance. Actually, no, that's exactly what it is.

    Its true I said that to ease tension but in truth I don't like having the Avengers and X-men in any form of interaction I like them where they were ignorant and not giving a crap about the others plight. Avoiding all team ups and not having to put up with X-men's whining of "Avengers don't care about mutants enough" to "You Avengers were never their for Genosha you should be ashamed!!" no sir I get tired of that BS tis better to be segregated than united in which case that saying works best for Avengers and X-men.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    Its true I said that to ease tension but in truth I don't like having the Avengers and X-men in any form of interaction I like them where they were ignorant and not giving a crap about the others plight. Avoiding all team ups and not having to put up with X-men's whining of "Avengers don't care about mutants enough" to "You Avengers were never their for Genosha you should be ashamed!!" no sir I get tired of that BS tis better to be segregated than united in which case that saying works best for Avengers and X-men.

    yeah, I get that.

    While I actually do agree that most team-ups between the X-men and the Avengers are kind of lame, the Avengers are themselves a team-up of characters from all over the MU, so I see absolutely no reason to exclude characters from the X-men, let alone arbitrarily divide the characters into separate realities.

    To do so would only limit the stories that could be told, for the sole purpose of what? so that books you don't like don't exist?

    To hell with what me and all the other fans of Uncanny Avengers, All-New X-Men, the Secret Wars, House of M, the New Avengers, the Illuminati, Rogue, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Ms. Marvel, the Beast, Firestar, etc.. think about it; obviously since tigerkaya doesn't like it, all of that should change or be done away with!

    Do you have any idea how entitled that makes you sound?

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    DireDrill

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    The X-men should have never existed in the first place. Once the Avengers came onto the scene, Professor X should have started putting mutants on that team. It would be hard to make a case for hating mutants when they are saving the world from aliens. Beyond giving mutantkind a huge PR boost, it also would help recruiting them. The X-men only served to help bring about the mass hysteria that people like the Friends of Humanity or the Purifiers used to draw thousands into their ranks. The X-men only exist to fulfill Xavier's vane desire to be remembered.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    The X-men should have never existed in the first place. Once the Avengers came onto the scene, Professor X should have started putting mutants on that team. It would be hard to make a case for hating mutants when they are saving the world from aliens. Beyond giving mutantkind a huge PR boost, it also would help recruiting them. The X-men only served to help bring about the mass hysteria that people like the Friends of Humanity or the Purifiers used to draw thousands into their ranks. The X-men only exist to fulfill Xavier's vane desire to be remembered.

    originally, I think it was more like that. The X-men were as much about being a school for teenage superheroes as they were about the mutant thing. And actually much of what they did in the 60's was fight off alien invasions, definitely more than they fought evil mutants or Sentinels or what have you.

    And when the original students left the school, what did they do? Beast joined the Avengers, Iceman and Angel joined the The Champions, and all three of them ended up joining the The Defenders before going on to form X-factor. If you think of the X-men as a school, wherein all of the characters are either teachers or students, it makes sense that most characters would go on to join other teams like the Avengers eventually.

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    goobot

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    Xmen should just become a fraction of the avengers where they all work together but the xmen section is still dedicated to finding and helping mutants control their powers.

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    DireDrill

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    @oldnightcrawler: What I mean is that the X-Mansion, X-School, and X-men as a whole should not have existed after the Avengers formed. With Iron Man on the mutant's side, there will be no mutant hate. Segregating them is exactly what created the hate that they have to deal with. When Thor shows up at the UN to speak out against Genosha's harsh treatment of mutants, people will side with them. If Cyclops was trained by Captain America, he may not be the messed up piece of crap that Xavier made him into.

    The only good thing that Xavier ever did in his crappy life was save Wolverine. The X-men was an abysmal failure.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler: What I mean is that the X-Mansion, X-School, and X-men as a whole should not have existed after the Avengers formed. With Iron Man on the mutant's side, there will be no mutant hate. Segregating them is exactly what created the hate that they have to deal with. When Thor shows up at the UN to speak out against Genosha's harsh treatment of mutants, people will side with them. If Cyclops was trained by Captain America, he may not be the messed up piece of crap that Xavier made him into.

    The only good thing that Xavier ever did in his crappy life was save Wolverine. The X-men was an abysmal failure.

    Really?

    'cause I don't remember Xavier inventing the Sentinels or the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, nor do I remember Captain America or Iron man looking for young mutants to train. I mean, Cap' did train Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, and later the Beast, but it's not like that stopped them from doing crazy things. How was Cap' or Iron man supposed to train a young Jean Grey? or Wolverine? or Rogue? How would they even find mutants without Cerebro? And weren't they already at least kind of busy being the Avengers?

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    DireDrill

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    Xavier provided all the fuel that was needed to get the Sentinel Fire going. He builds a force to defend mutant rights, humans are obviously going to build something to defend human rights. This is escalation pure and simple and even though the mutants started it, Xavier did not have to provide the gasoline. You think the Black Panther's don't exist because the KKK exists?

    Xavier could have stopped the Brotherhood at any time he so desired. While Magneto is shielded from Cerebro, none of his lackeys are which means if Sabretooth can be mind controlled then he can be detected by Cerebro. There would be nowhere they could hide from Xavier. This means that Xavier allowed the Brotherhood to do everything they have ever done. Through inaction, he is directly responsible for the Brotherhood.

    The Avengers weren't made aware of the Mutant plight until it was too late to do anything about. You really think the Avengers would have done nothing? They would have stepped in. They likely would have started the Avengers Academy years earlier. Since they were training Avengers rather than Mutants this would ease relations between humans and mutants. With more recruits, the Avengers would be able to easily manage most threats.

    You think that Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Hank Pym and potentially Bruce Banner can't come up with a way to detect mutants. These men are much smarter than Xavier is.

    Given the number of telekinetically empowered people on Marvel Earth, creating a training regimen for them would be very useful. Given Jean's potential, they may have decided to take her to Kun Lun and have them train her given their previous experience with the Phoenix.The options that become available when you have Avenger's access are far more capable than the awful job that Xavier did with Jean.

    Wolverine may still have been evil but I think that Captain America could help with that given he is Weapon I.

    Rogue would be no problem at all, Tony would create a suit that works like the ones the Ultimate Von Strucker Twins gave Ultimate Rogue.

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    InnerVenom123

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    Wolverine

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    oldnightcrawler

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    #92  Edited By oldnightcrawler

    @diredrill said:

    @oldnightcrawler:

    Xavier provided all the fuel that was needed to get the Sentinel Fire going. He builds a force to defend mutant rights, humans are obviously going to build something to defend human rights. This is escalation pure and simple and even though the mutants started it, Xavier did not have to provide the gasoline.

    That's putting the cart before the horse; Xavier started the X-men because mutants were feared and hated, not the other way around.

    And there were already anti-human extremists like Magneto, the Stranger, Mystique, Apocalypse, and Sinister around recruiting young mutants at the same time as Xavier was. I think it's pretty safe to conclude that without the X-men, there would have been far more mutant super-villains and just strait-up victims than mutant superheroes.

    Xavier could have stopped the Brotherhood at any time he so desired. While Magneto is shielded from Cerebro, none of his lackeys are which means if Sabretooth can be mind controlled then he can be detected by Cerebro. There would be nowhere they could hide from Xavier. This means that Xavier allowed the Brotherhood to do everything they have ever done. Through inaction, he is directly responsible for the Brotherhood.

    Again, the X-men was a response to Magneto's extremism, not the other way around. And it wasn't just Magneto, many of Xavier's students were on the run or being used before being taken in by the X-men. You make it sound like Xavier was the villain for offering his students a choice instead of eliminating his enemies like Magneto would.

    The Avengers weren't made aware of the Mutant plight until it was too late to do anything about. You really think the Avengers would have done nothing? They would have stepped in. They likely would have started the Avengers Academy years earlier. Since they were training Avengers rather than Mutants this would ease relations between humans and mutants. With more recruits, the Avengers would be able to easily manage most threats.

    The Sentinels first attacked New York in The X-Men #14, literally the same day as Reed and Sue's wedding, meaning that all of the marvel heroes were in town that day. Even if the Avengers somehow just slept through that (they did fight the FF's entire rogues gallery that afternoon), they at least would have known about the Brotherhood by The Avengers #16 when Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch joined. They'd already met the X-men by then.

    But the whole idea of an Avengers Academy would have been redundant at the time, since there were only like nine teenage superheroes at the time, and five of them already went to a school that trained superheroes. It's not like Xavier forced them to join (though, as you point out, he could have), and there's no way of knowing that they would have joined the Avengers even if that had been an option; they could have just as easily joined the Brotherhood or something.

    You think that Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Hank Pym and potentially Bruce Banner can't come up with a way to detect mutants. These men are much smarter than Xavier is.

    Maybe they could have, but they didn't. Is that Xavier's fault?

    Given the number of telekinetically empowered people on Marvel Earth, creating a training regimen for them would be very useful. Given Jean's potential, they may have decided to take her to Kun Lun and have them train her given their previous experience with the Phoenix.The options that become available when you have Avenger's access are far more capable than the awful job that Xavier did with Jean.

    Okay, I think you're forgetting that the X-men started at the same time as the Avengers (1963), and Xavier had been building the team prior to the Avengers first fortuitous team-up (X-men: Children of the Atom).

    The Avengers definitely didn't know about K'un-Lun way back then, and were not the powerful organization they would become; it was literally Thor and some shell-shocked scientists -that was it. And they barely even got along.

    At the time, Xavier was her best option; is that Xavier's fault?

    Rogue would be no problem at all, Tony would create a suit that works like the ones the Ultimate Von Strucker Twins gave Ultimate Rogue.

    Do you even know why Rogue joined the X-men?

    There is no way she would have gone to the Avengers for help!

    I stand my original sentiment: without Xavier there just would have been more mutant super-villains, more victims, and possibly Sentinels in charge of everything; with Xavier's school you have a self-sustaining infrastructure of mutants teaching each other to become superheroes -if they want to, or be able to just live their lives. Eliminating Xavier from the equation kind of just makes everything worse for everyone.

    You ever read Age of Apocalypse?

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    Sentinels didn't come about until after the X-men. They were a direct response to the X-men's existence, how else do you explain Stephen Lang's X-Sentinels? The X-men have created more mutant hatred than Magneto ever has. Do you think that the Government would ever release funding for Sentinel research when Iron Man is around?

    The X-men were an act of vanity by Professor X. He made the ultimate mistake in deciding that he was the best option to deal with Magneto when his team only succeeded in furthering Magneto's cause. Had he worked with the Avengers, people would have seen mutants and humans facing off against evil mutants rather than mutants having a disagreement with other mutants and fighting.

    Again, through his incompetence or inaction, Xavier is directly responsible for every crime that Magneto has committed because he could have stopped him. Fact is, Magneto is a criminal, bringing him in is exactly the type of thing superhero teams do. If the X-men were designed to take on Magneto then taking him down would be their top goal.

    The FFs villains kept the Avenger's busy during the attack. Quicksilver and Wanda would not be a good representative of the mutant plight. If anything only seeing Pietro and Wanda and the Brotherhood would have tainted the Avenger's view of mutants.

    It is Xavier's fault that the Avengers only had a passing knowledge of mutants and their problems. Rather than try and do even basic PR, Xavier spent his time building an army. This sends the wrong message and ultimately created much of the problems they faced. Xavier is never the best option. Everything he touches turns to crap.

    Rogue was only a villain so that she could become a hero. Destiny made that happen through the power of precognition. Destiny has always been an agent of good working for bad guys. With the changes I suggest, she never reveals Rogue to Mystique and she is found by Captain America and Iron Man.

    No one says that every person who goes to Avengers Academy is going to become a superhero. Does every person who goes through basic become a soldier? No, 2/3ds become support personnel.

    Leaving Xavier in the equation works out horribly for everyone. Jean Grey is dead, Cyclops is a megalomaniac, Beast is incompetent, Iceman is a joke, and Archangel is a Death. None of them are particularly good people and they only get worse the more exposure to Xavier they have. Only Wolverine seems to be the exception to the rule but that is only because he was much worse before getting to Xavier.

    AoA was not just because of a lack of Xavier, alot of things are different.

    Xavier + Anything = Crap. The X-men, the X-Mansion, and the school are all just Xavier's vanity running its course.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    Sentinels didn't come about until after the X-men. They were a direct response to the X-men's existence, how else do you explain Stephen Lang's X-Sentinels? The X-men have created more mutant hatred than Magneto ever has. Do you think that the Government would ever release funding for Sentinel research when Iron Man is around?

    ..and not a response to Magneto's Brotherhood or other actual terrorist mutants?

    I don't know why you would think they would be concerned with the X-men and not Magneto, that just makes no sense to me.

    The X-men were an act of vanity by Professor X. He made the ultimate mistake in deciding that he was the best option to deal with Magneto when his team only succeeded in furthering Magneto's cause. Had he worked with the Avengers, people would have seen mutants and humans facing off against evil mutants rather than mutants having a disagreement with other mutants and fighting.

    Like I already pointed out, when Xavier was forming the X-men, the Avengers had yet to be formed.

    Besides which, training his students to be superheroes was only one function of the school. It's fairly well established that Xavier was the foremost expert in human mutation, who on the Avengers was going to teach the students to control their powers? Stark? Pym?

    Banner?

    The FFs villains kept the Avenger's busy during the attack. Quicksilver and Wanda would not be a good representative of the mutant plight. If anything only seeing Pietro and Wanda and the Brotherhood would have tainted the Avenger's view of mutants.

    My point was only that the Avengers did know about the mutants, because you had claimed that "The Avengers weren't made aware of the Mutant plight until it was too late to do anything about. You really think the Avengers would have done nothing? They would have stepped in. They likely would have started the Avengers Academy years earlier" a claim you have yet to substantiate based on anything from the text.

    The Avengers were fully aware that Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch had been members of the Brotherhood, yet granted them membership regardless of being mutants or criminals.

    It is Xavier's fault that the Avengers only had a passing knowledge of mutants and their problems. Rather than try and do even basic PR, Xavier spent his time building an army. This sends the wrong message and ultimately created much of the problems they faced.

    Actually, I might be remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty sure the first time the Sentinels ran amok, Xavier was himself participating in a live televised debate about the so-called mutant menace as an expert on mutants. So, basically doing exactly what you're claiming he never did.

    Also keep in mind that this was later in the same day that he had been seen talking to Reed Richards, establishing that they were indeed respected colleagues, and that Richards (and the scientific community, by extension) was indeed familiar with his work as a scientist.

    No one says that every person who goes to Avengers Academy is going to become a superhero. Does every person who goes through basic become a soldier? No, 2/3ds become support personnel.

    Does every mutant who needs help learning how to use their powers have to join the army to do so? That's just absurd. And it makes you sound like a supporter of mutant registration.

    Leaving Xavier in the equation works out horribly for everyone. Jean Grey is dead, Cyclops is a megalomaniac, Beast is incompetent, Iceman is a joke, and Archangel is a Death. None of them are particularly good people and they only get worse the more exposure to Xavier they have.

    how is any of that Xavier's fault? Would it have been better if they'd all become pawns of Magneto? or Sinister?

    You talk like he should have just turned them all over to the Avengers, who, again, had only just formed and had shown absolutely no interest in training anyone until Cap' trained the kooky quartet (in combat, mind you, not in the use of their powers).

    Do we want to look at how much good the Avengers have done for their own membership in training them in the control and ethical use of their powers? if so, we need look no further than Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch. What about those original members he should have consulted?Hank Pym? Bruce Banner? Don't get me wrong, Xavier was 60's Marvel crazy for sure, but the Avengers was a whole nuthouse.

    AoA was not just because of a lack of Xavier, alot of things are different.

    So you didn't read it then. Because the whole idea of AoA was that all of those differences were the result of Xavier never forming the X-men; that's literally the whole premise.

    At this point you've made so many false claims and logical fallacies in these last posts (to say nothing of answering not one of my questions), that I'm beginning to think you're just being a troll. Either way, it's been fun clearing all these misconceptions up. Though I get the feeling that in your case it may have all fallen on deaf ears, it's been interesting none the less.

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    So Stephen Lang built Brotherhood Sentinels? Is that what happened? Because I don't remember that happening I remember him building Sentinels that looked like the X-men. Also, if Magneto was the real target why were the first series of Sentinels built out of the one thing he would destroy with no problem? Sending Metal Robots against the Master of Magnetism is the height of stupidity. Considering that the first target that Trask has was Professor X, can you really even believe that the Brotherhood was why the Sentinels were constructed? Taking it a step further, Namor was the first mutant introduced to the public. He is an 80-100 tonner and beyond depending on moisture level, Mark 1 Sentinels only clock in as 20 tonners. They would be less than useless against Namor the first ever mutant threat. Everything involving the Sentinels has been focused around the X-men not the Brotherhood, not Sinister, not Namor, not even Apocalypse but the X-men. It is ridiculous to believe that the Sentinels were not a direct show of force against the escalation that the X-men presented.

    You also bring up Reed Richards as his credentials when that only flies because in the public eye there was NO ONE else doing research into mutants. The only person doing it becomes the foremost authority automatically. This is why Beast is able to easily surpass him despite being 20-30 years younger. The only thing that Xavier ever built was Cerebro and that was with Magneto's superior intellect helping him. The only other thing that he ever did was name the X-Gene. Fact is, he is only an authority on mutants because he is a mutant. Essex, Romulus, Apocalypse, The High Evolutionary, and countless others are all lightyears ahead of him in knowledge.

    You think going into a televised debate is good PR? What are you an idiot or something? He is wealthy at this point, so he should have been influencing marketing campaigns to include pro-mutant propaganda. Money talks in America and he wastes all his time going on TV to argue? Had he spent any time in a room with a PR guy he would have learned how stupid that is. Arguing on TV only serves to further polarize your audience.

    Avengers Academy isn't a government entity. It is an organization designed around branding. You brand mutants as Avengers and you suddenly have a generation of people who consider mutants as heroes. The first generation of Avengers will have to fight on the battlefield and on main street. Suffrage and civil liberties aren't something that comes easy but with the right marketing, they could gain those protections under law in a couple generations. But without the Avenger's name, they appear as only a fringe team fighting other mutants. The Avengers have the star power to get things done thanks to the financial power of Stark Industries.

    Given that the only thing that Xavier did was apply the scientific method to their powers, I don't see Stark or Pym having any problems doing the same. The only thing Xavier could help with was Jean's powers because other then that, he is completely useless. Bruce's powers literally cannot be controlled and doing so only leads to more problems. At best, you can only direct the Hulk. I don't get your claims about Pym. Pym Particles are something that are fairly stable and are something that very few people in the entire Marvel Universe even know about. Thor is an ideal mentor for Iceman, Wasp is great for Angel, Pym would be good for Beast, Captain America would be good for Cyclops. Jean is really the only difficulty that would require a concerted effort.

    How would Magneto find them? Or Sinister? Unless the two teamed up neither of them have the knowledge or ability to find mutants. How would any of these people be corrupted? As you said, without Cerebro how can they be found?

    Quicksilver has too much of his dad's megalomania in him. Scarlet Witch was always a bomb waiting to go off. With a Phoenix on the team, they could have at least contended with her. Neither of them really present mutants as anything other than a threat. Beast was the first person to present mutants as anything other than that.

    You obviously don't know much about Apocalypse. He only awakens when someone of significant power comes onto the scene like he did when Cable was born. Legion is an Omega Level Mutant and his simply traveling back to before any other mutant on Cable's level existed caused Apocalypse to awaken much earlier than usual. He then took advantage of being up so early and got some things done. Xavier's death changed nothing.

    Again, Xavier + Anything = Crap. You have yet to disprove this.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    Taking it a step further, Namor was the first mutant introduced to the public. He is an 80-100 tonner and beyond depending on moisture level, Mark 1 Sentinels only clock in as 20 tonners. They would be less than useless against Namor the first ever mutant threat. Everything involving the Sentinels has been focused around the X-men not the Brotherhood, not Sinister, not Namor, not even Apocalypse but the X-men. It is ridiculous to believe that the Sentinels were not a direct show of force against the escalation that the X-men presented.

    That the Sentinels were designed to fight the X-men and not their rogues gallery really only speaks to Stan Lee's vision of them, not Stephen Lang's intention.

    You also bring up Reed Richards as his credentials when that only flies because in the public eye there was NO ONE else doing research into mutants. The only person doing it becomes the foremost authority automatically.

    That doesn't make him not the authority.

    You think going into a televised debate is good PR? What are you an idiot or something? He is wealthy at this point, so he should have been influencing marketing campaigns to include pro-mutant propaganda. Money talks in America and he wastes all his time going on TV to argue? Had he spent any time in a room with a PR guy he would have learned how stupid that is. Arguing on TV only serves to further polarize your audience.

    So anyone who engages in an actual public debate is just fooling themselves?

    not being a specialist in public relations hardly makes Xavier responsible for the views of those he was arguing with.

    Avengers Academy isn't a government entity. It is an organization designed around branding. You brand mutants as Avengers and you suddenly have a generation of people who consider mutants as heroes. The first generation of Avengers will have to fight on the battlefield and on main street. Suffrage and civil liberties aren't something that comes easy but with the right marketing, they could gain those protections under law in a couple generations. But without the Avenger's name, they appear as only a fringe team fighting other mutants. The Avengers have the star power to get things done thanks to the financial power of Stark Industries.

    Now they do, but as I keep pointing out, that wasn't always the case, and it certainly wasn't when Xavier started the X-men, at which point they themselves were still a fringe entity. How was Xavier supposed to know that the Avengers themselves would become accepted by the public?

    Given that the only thing that Xavier did was apply the scientific method to their powers, I don't see Stark or Pym having any problems doing the same. The only thing Xavier could help with was Jean's powers because other then that, he is completely useless. Bruce's powers literally cannot be controlled and doing so only leads to more problems. At best, you can only direct the Hulk. I don't get your claims about Pym. Pym Particles are something that are fairly stable and are something that very few people in the entire Marvel Universe even know about. Thor is an ideal mentor for Iceman, Wasp is great for Angel, Pym would be good for Beast, Captain America would be good for Cyclops. Jean is really the only difficulty that would require a concerted effort.

    I was just pointing out that Pym, Stark, and Banner were all far more unstable than even Xavier at the time, giving me no reason to think any of them would have done a better job than Xavier. You claim that Xavier did nothing to further the cause of mutants because he only cared about training his soldiers, but even if that's true, what was Captain America's rational for training Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch?

    And, again, Cap did not train them in the control of their powers, he only trained them to be good soldiers.

    How would Magneto find them? Or Sinister? Unless the two teamed up neither of them have the knowledge or ability to find mutants. How would any of these people be corrupted? As you said, without Cerebro how can they be found?

    And yet you claim that "Essex, Romulus, Apocalypse, The High Evolutionary, and countless others are all lightyears ahead of him in knowledge" and that Xavier was only able to create Cerebro "with Magneto's superior intellect helping him."

    So which is it? Was Xavier actually the expert on mutants or wasn't he?

    because, if he was the expert, then it stands to reason that he was the right man for the job; yet, if, as you claim, all of these threats were superior to him in knowledge, than we can at least recognize that his fears were well-founded, no?

    You obviously don't know much about Apocalypse. He only awakens when someone of significant power comes onto the scene like he did when Cable was born. Legion is an Omega Level Mutant and his simply traveling back to before any other mutant on Cable's level existed caused Apocalypse to awaken much earlier than usual. He then took advantage of being up so early and got some things done. Xavier's death changed nothing.

    So Apocalypse doesn't awaken for the onset of Jean Grey/ the Phoenix, the Scarlet Witch, Proteus, Franklin Richards but he wakes up simply because Cable is born. Why do you suppose that is?

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    tigerkaya

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    In truth the X-men are better off as the isolated, rebel hero team that only tackle mutant problem they add little to a world of gang bosses gaining superman like powers, time traveling conquerors, and other abnormal oddities that. To me the X-men are better off in the mutant situation of stories. Trying to force them in as Avengers early in their career doesn't work very well for them it just takes away from their identity.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    In truth the X-men are better off as the isolated, rebel hero team that only tackle mutant problem they add little to a world of gang bosses gaining superman like powers, time traveling conquerors, and other abnormal oddities that. To me the X-men are better off in the mutant situation of stories.

    I agree that they're generally better in their own corner of the MU (disagree that they should be totally separate from it).

    Trying to force them in as Avengers early in their career doesn't work very well for them it just takes away from their identity.

    This i totally agree with though.

    Even before the mutant stuff became really central, most of the X-men's early adventures deal more with them being teenage superheroes in training (like marvel's teen titans, or teen FF, really).

    Most of their villains and adventures weren't that much different from what other marvel superheroes did; even when the Sentinals or the Brotherhhood was involved, how distinct were they from the Avengers or the FF? The only constant distinction was that they were students that went to a secret superhero school. This remained mostly true for the Giant-Size X-Men (until around the 80's), the original The New Mutants, and most of Generation X as well.

    So, to me, the theme of them being a school is as much part of what makes them special, as what makes them the X-men, as any of the mutant stuff.

    Which sort of makes stuff like the Avengers Academy just seem redundant, thematically. I don't read Avengers to see amateurs (being trained to be superheroes or not), that's the X-men's thing; I read Avengers to see Earth's mightiest heroes, that's the Avengers' thing, right?

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    DireDrill

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    #99  Edited By DireDrill

    @oldnightcrawler:

    Thanks for the concession on the Sentinels. Guess I am not so full of lies and fallacies.

    If you are the only one in your field then you automatically become the foremost authority. If I went out today and started researching the physics of optical blasts and I am the only one with any research into it and suddenly people start asking questions about it. I am the authority on optic blasts. That is how it works until someone comes along with more knowledge.

    Anyone who engages in a public debate and wants actual change is very foolish. Xavier never gets to claim ignorance on anything, he is a telepath. He can literally learn everything he needs to know from being in the same room with a skilled person in PR.

    The Avengers had Stark's Iron Man behind them. They weren't a fringe group, they had SHIELD support and his resources at their disposal. They also had a god. Stark Money > Xavier Money. I never claimed that Xavier was focused on building his army but that he was appealing to his own vanity by training his soldiers. Captain America was attempting to redeem them. Scarlet Witch was beyond anyone save for maybe Strange. Quicksilver again had too much of his father in him.

    Now you are making a false equivalency. Knowledge on Mutation =/= being able to build a machine that has never existed before. Cerebro is a device that requires a telepath, a working knowledge of mutant minds, and an understanding of technology. Magneto isn't a Telepath, anyone who has watched X-men 2 knows this. Romulus only cares about his won projects. Essex didn't have the tech knowledge that Magneto lends. Apocalypse wouldn't awaken till much longer down the line which would put him behind. High Evolutionary doesn't care about mutants. Fact is, it takes a combination of Magneto's brains and Xavier's telepathy to make Cerebro function.

    Phoenix power isn't mutant in origin and as such it isn't something he would wake up. Scarlet Witch's power comes from magic which again is not mutant in nature. Proteus isn't really a game changer. Franklin Richards is likely too powerful given that he is a match for Galactus. Legion is an insanely powerful mutant through and through, he fits the exact specifications.

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    oldnightcrawler

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    @oldnightcrawler:

    Thanks for the concession on the Sentinels. Guess I am not so full of lies and fallacies.

    I never meant to imply that you were lying, only that I thought you were incorrect.

    Xavier never gets to claim ignorance on anything, he is a telepath. He can literally learn everything he needs to know from being in the same room with a skilled person in PR.

    Even being a genius and the most powerful telepath on the planet still doesn't make him omniscient. Even without considering Xavier's (questionable) moral stance on the use of his powers, extra perception does not mean that he's just going to know what the right or best way to do everything is. Obviously, since he is still fallible.

    You're sort of implying that Xavier has a moral obligation to always know what the right thing to do would be, that because he can know everyone's perspective, he himself should be infallible. Firstly, I don't even know that he really can know that, but also, that implies that because he can perceive the thoughts of others that he is entitled to, that it's not only his right to, but also his duty to. Both of which I would disagree with.

    I agree that he did a lot of things in stupid, crazy ways, but he was doing things no one had ever done before, with knowledge and powers that no one ever had before, yet he still tried to hold himself to a moral code, in the pursuit of a noble cause.

    Making mistakes that anyone could make in his unique position should not itself vilify him.

    1. Now you are making a false equivalency. Knowledge on Mutation =/= being able to build a machine that has never existed before.
    2. Cerebro is a device that requires a telepath, a working knowledge of mutant minds, and an understanding of technology.
    3. Magneto isn't a Telepath, anyone who has watched X-men 2 knows this. Romulus only cares about his won projects. Essex didn't have the tech knowledge that Magneto lends. Apocalypse wouldn't awaken till much longer down the line which would put him behind. High Evolutionary doesn't care about mutants. Fact is, it takes a combination of Magneto's brains and Xavier's telepathy to make Cerebro function.

    1. I only said that if Xavier could build Cerebro, and you claim that Stark/Pym/Richards/etc.. could have designed it, then why couldn't any of several mutant (Magneto,etc) villains have created it?, that's all.

    2. There have been versions of Cerebro that have not required telepathic interface, for use in the field when there wasn't a telepath present.

    3. Magneto is a telepath, or at least he was back then. That's how he first teamed up with Namor, by contacting him telepathically before Xavier could. Either way, Magneto (/Mystique/the Stranger/Sinister) obviously had no problem tracking down other mutants, which was really my point.

    Phoenix power isn't mutant in origin and as such it isn't something he would wake up. Scarlet Witch's power comes from magic which again is not mutant in nature. Proteus isn't really a game changer. Franklin Richards is likely too powerful given that he is a match for Galactus. Legion is an insanely powerful mutant through and through, he fits the exact specifications.

    I'm just pointing out that the distinction/justification is largely arbitrary, for the sake of the story.

    And that doesn't undo my other point, which was that it had always been the X-men who stopped Apocalypse; if the Avengers should have been the ones to train the X-men as you propose, why couldn't they have stopped the AoA? Retcons aside, the point of the story is that it's Xavier's presence that prevents the AoA, that he's the missing piece.

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