John Byrne says JLA - Avengers was a terrible crossover

#1 Posted by MutenRoshi (851 posts) - - Show Bio

He's not a fan of Busiek's crossover.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40144&PN=1&TPN=3

,…Hawkeye comparing the JLA to the Squadron Supreme…

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The only thing worse than fan-wankery is fan-wankery that overtly calls attention to itself
I do agree that these type of crossovers are not a good way to introduce a new reader to the DC and Marvel universes.

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And yet the first one did precisely that! Remember the "We Now Pause for Hero Identification" pages? Today, I am sure, those would have caused much foaming at the mouth from anal fans who would claim to be insulted by any suggestion that they did not already know who Superman and Spider-Man were -- and that anyone who didn't should go read a few hundred back issues and CATCH UP!

In fact, when I did DARKSEID vs GALACTUS I included similar pages, to bring up to speed what I knew would be very narrowly focused Marvel and DC fans, and when he read the plot, Mark Gruenwald originally told me to take out those pages, as "Everybody knows who these guys are."

Everybody? DC and Marvel were smart enough to assume that not EVERYBODY would know who Superman and Spider-Man were, but Mark thought everybody would know Darkseid and Galactus?

Alas, that is the kind of myopic thinking that was beginning to show itself more and more in comics -- and of which JLA/AVENGERS is the worst example.

(Hm. Hold on that. KINGDOM COME might be the worst. I seem to recall page after page after page in which no one is called by name.)
Mjolnir hits with its own devastating magical impact regardless of who wields it. If Thor was able to tag Superman with it, which would require Superman not to use his super-speed to easily avoid getting hit, than Mjolnir would knock Superman unconscious. At the very least Superman would always be vulnerable to Mjolnir's magical impacts and would not be able to simply block a full-strength blow with the palm of his hand.

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Being actually ABLE to hit him is, of course, the key problem, but I have said for years -- nay, DECADES -- that if Thor was actually able to hit Superman with Mjolnir, it would be like one very strong guy hitting another very strong guy -- WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

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Krona killing Galactus…

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Galactus, of course, being so closely associated with the Avengers. . .f
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#2 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
Hmmm. No comments on this yet?
#3 Posted by Jake Fury (19153 posts) - - Show Bio

Crossovers are for laughs. C'mon Byrne you know better.

#4 Posted by Jake Fury (19153 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, he's seriously going to knock Kingdom Come? That arc is absolutely fantstic.

#5 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury said:
Also, he's seriously going to knock Kingdom Come? That arc is absolutely fantstic.
Yeah? I was kind of suprised at that myself.
#6 Posted by PrinceIMC (5422 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved JLA/Avengers. Had great matchups, interesting story, good action.

#7 Posted by Kairan1979 (16897 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jake Fury said:
Also, he's seriously going to knock Kingdom Come? That arc is absolutely fantstic.
#8 Posted by Wattup (648 posts) - - Show Bio

Who's John Byrne?

Oh yeah, a once-impressive comics artist/writer but now constant whiner who hasn't done anything noteworthy since...the 90s?

#9 Edited by MutenRoshi (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Jake Fury said:
Also, he's seriously going to knock Kingdom Come? That arc is absolutely fantstic.
Yeah? I was kind of suprised at that myself.

I AGREE WITH HIM 100% ON KINGDOM COME

and for the record he's not saying its a bad story, just saying the book has way, way, way too many characters. And I'm old enough to remember Kingdom Come when it was first out, I was a kid then and barley understood the story but a lot of older people in the comic shops knew a lot more about DC's verse than i did

and even they didn't have a clue about half of the characters

That's EXACTLY the problem with it, way, way, way too many heroes and villains its a failure of Ross/Waids KC and this way too many heroes that's always been a failure of Busiek's comicbooks. He puts in dozens if not hundreds of obscure heroes and villains in his story that don't really add anything to the overall story

and back then there wasn't really any internet

It's not as if back in 1996 you could google KingdomCome and get lots of info on its chapters or go on the comicvine site and check who's that creepy electricity guy standing next to Wonder Woman or who was that black dude with armor and a long beard running next to Lex Luthor

Kingdom Come is a great story but it could have done with cutting a few characters out of it, or setting up a long introduction chapter to slowly introduce people unfamiliar to DC verse

again something we see repeated in JLA/Avengers....lots of obscure enemies, heroes who were barley connected to stories

#10 Posted by Jake Fury (19153 posts) - - Show Bio

Busiek didn't even write Kingdom Come, Mark Waid did. I'm sorry Byrne had such a problem following it but I didn't. I wasn't even a big DC fan the first time I read it. The central theme of the story is all about Superman/Magog anyway.

#11 Posted by Jake Fury (19153 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, I didn't have any trouble following JLA/Avengers.

#12 Edited by MutenRoshi (851 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jake Fury said:

Crossovers are for laughs. C'mon Byrne you know better.

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Here was a story that had NO HUMOR in it at all

Impossible Man, Superman, Surfer, Mxy now that was a laugh

Even the dark and grim Punisher and Batman with Joker slipping on a banana peel before Punisher goes to blow Joker's brains out, that was a laugh

but JLA-Avengers...dull as dish water and read like a fanwankers tribute to himself

@Jake Fury said:

Also, I didn't have any trouble following JLA/Avengers.

Maybe its just me, maybe I'm not a big enough comic fan but I still don't know dozens of the character who guest starred in the comic

Also I thought the overall story was lame, structured like a 14 year olds fan fiction

@PrinceIMC said:

I loved JLA/Avengers.

This could have been wrote better

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#13 Posted by Jake Fury (19153 posts) - - Show Bio

Kingdom Come is one of my all time favorite stories but to each their own. JLA/Avengers was decent for what it was. We won't ever see a collaboration like that again between the two companies.

#14 Posted by termiteone4ever (7866 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't have much complains it was entertaining :)

#15 Posted by BloodTalon (440 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked Kingdom come and JLA/Avengers they were not hard to fallow if you had trouble thats your problem. Your complaints sound a little childish to me.

I mean all I am hearing is waa waa I don't know that guy waa waa

#16 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

Byrne is one of those old geezers who should'nt be taken seriously.

#17 Posted by Hoboseid (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

Busiek couldn't write a good Thor comic to save his life

#18 Posted by turoksonofstone (13200 posts) - - Show Bio

Greatest Crossover Ever. 
Byrne should just stick to Art, and shut up.

#19 Posted by Hoboseid (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Busiek can be a nice writer but this crossover was terrible

Busiek sold himself to superman fanboys.....so funny because since the crossover the Superman franchise has gone to the dogs while Thor's brand name rises in video games, cartoons and movies

Superman is done, he's so out of fashion and going to be replaced by far more interesting characters like Batman, Ironman, Lara Croft, Sarah Connor, Storm, Thor, Spider-Man etc

I mean they haven't made a decent Superman movie since the early 1980s and that Smaville tv show, UTTER SH*l*T

Superman is so done

stick a fork in him and his lame rip off JohnCarter/Moses-In-Basket backstory

#20 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7760 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jake Fury said:

Kingdom Come is one of my all time favorite stories but to each their own. JLA/Avengers was decent for what it was. We won't ever see a collaboration like that again between the two companies.
#21 Posted by daredevil21134 (12352 posts) - - Show Bio

EPIC!!! hahaha

#22 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Jake Fury said:
Also, he's seriously going to knock Kingdom Come? That arc is absolutely fantstic.
Yeah? I was kind of suprised at that myself.

Ditto.

#23 Posted by Mighty Thorion (797 posts) - - Show Bio

Sour grapes, Mr Byrne?

#24 Posted by PowerHerc (85153 posts) - - Show Bio

Opinions vary, but I thoroughly enjoyed JLA/Avengers and I think Kingdom Come is one of the best stories ever.

#25 Posted by Amanthine (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Kingdom Come is great. It's not hard to follow and there aren't too many characters. A lot of metahumans appear in it, but the main cast of characters is limited. It only matters if you put too much worth in the extras, but at the core of it, it's a Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman cast with an excellent story and magnificent artwork.

#26 Edited by Hoboseid (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

todays Superman is retarded and Busiek could never write post-silverage characters

I agree Kingdom Come is cool though, Byrne should not try and knock it because at its core its a great classic story...not sure if any of the new metas in KC add to the story though. Pity Busiek never got a good comic script out like Frank, Stan and JMS have done

#27 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hoboseid: I agree with everything you said except - SMALLVILLE IS NOT UTER CRAP. It's probably one of the few good things in the Superman franchise lately..... You are entitled to your opinion but please don't call it that....

#28 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have a problem with JLA/Avengers, but I understand where he's coming from on some points. In terms of Kingdom Come, he's absolutely right. People here are missing the point, he's not saying its a bad story. He's saying that new readers would never be able to recognize all of the characters. Anyone can follow the story. You just read the words and maybe take a few extra seconds with the pictures. Because i'm pretty sure there are longtime readers here who didn't (And maybe still don't) recognize every single one of the metahumans that appeared in that story when they read it.

#29 Posted by Hoboseid (1022 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with Byrne that Galactus should not have been in the book, Galactus is not an Avengers villain. He's more part of the Cosmic/Fan4 gallery, theer were so many better characters Busiek could have picked

#30 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally I think Krona vs Thanos with the IG would have been a better fight then Krona vs Galactus.

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