How is Steve Rogers in the wrong?

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#1 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

After days of saying "no, I'm not going to read this event," I caved in and read it because the curiosity got the better of me. I'll have you know, however, that I still didn't pay for it. Take that, Marvel.

So I read the first two issues and the Avengers tie-in, and I fail to see where Steve Rogers is in the wrong on this issue. The Avengers, whether they're written by the incompetent Bendis or whoever, is the team that usually keeps the peace in times of crisis, such as this. They're Avengers. It's what they do. I understand that the Phoenix is a universal threat that the X-Men take responsibility for, but this time, Steve took it upon himself to try and handle the issue. Good for him. In fact, he even said that he wanted to work with Cyclops, which again, is smart because if anyone would know anything, it'd be him. Steve may have went on his island uninvited, but it was with the intension of speaking with Cyclops, trying to get his help. All Cyclops did, however, is make the excuse that "the Avengers never helped the X-Men ever" and that "the Phoenix Force can bring back the mutants."

I agree with Cyclops in the sense that the the Avengers never really made an effort to help the mutants during their time of need (Decimation and the Messiah Complex, specifically), but taking the chance that a cosmic force that can destroy EVERYTHING can POSSIBLY restore all the mutants? Come on, dude. I thought you were smart. That's just childish and selfish. I'm pretty sure Cyclops is the only one who feels the way he does, because even Magneto himself (you know, the ex-terrorist) wasn't to keen on the idea of this fight.

I understand that Cap brought all the Avengers along with him to Utopia, anticipating a fight, but with the way Cyclops has been handling things, and the way Wolverine described it, how could he not? Besides, it was Cyclops that struck first, which, I'll admit, I would've done too, but he didn't even bother to reason with Steve beforehand.

Maybe I'm just naive or it's just because I prefer Avengers to X-Men (not by much, mind you), but I really don't see how Steve is wrong here.

#2 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

How could he not turn up on Utopia's shore with a S.H.I.E.L.D. Hellcarier full of dozens of Avengers and demand that Cyclops hand over a sixteen year old girl, who represents the old real future of the mutant race and whom they've spent years trying to protect, to them? It's not like the Avengers know nothing about the Phoenix Force, is it? How very reasonable of Captain America.

Although Cyclops seems a little bit unhinged, The Avengers seem like ignorant bullies.

#3 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
Utopia is US territory. It is well within Rogers' jurisdiction to do as he pleases without even asking Cyclops. Future of the mutant race? If Cyclops fails there will be no planet, let alone mutant "race".  Iron Man fought off the Phoenix by himself in Iron Age and Steve consulted with Beast and Wolverine before taking any kind of action. I'm not sure what else he could have possibly done. Walking into Utopia without back-up would had been naive on his part. And a man in his position cannot afford to be naive when the future of the planet depends on it.
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#4 Posted by Lvenger (19032 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops is being poorly written in this event. Anyone with common sense and previous experience of the Phoenix would make a rational judgement that the Phoenix Force poses a great threat to the world. And like you I fail to see how the Phoenix Force is going to restore the mutant race when it has a history of sending mutants mad and causing their deaths. And when Magneto, mutant rights extremist is against the idea you know you've gone too far. Cyclops is disregarding Hope as well, treating her as basic cannon fodder for the Phoenix. A force like that isn't supposed to be controlled. Cap's completely in the right here and bringing the Avengers along is a logical precaution given the threat the Phoenix poses.

#5 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@Morpheus_: You do know that at the end of this even the PF will re-power the mutants so in the end Cyk will be right even if he is painted as the bad guy
#6 Posted by HotSauceCommittee (345 posts) - - Show Bio

'Hey guys I'm a cheap pirate'

#7 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: If it repowers mutants. There isn't much point in that though, if there's no planet.

What really annoys me is that Logan's just going against his family in an ooc manner, but then again he only really wants Hope.

#8 Posted by Lvenger (19032 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: Can that judgement be made yet? The Phoenix hasn't exactly been trustworthy in the past so how can it be ascertained that the Phoenix will restore the mutant race? So far it's just destroyed planets and it looks like those planets haven't come back yet. Phoenixes may be associated with rebirth but all the Phoenix Force has done so far is destroy.

#9 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87: If it repowers mutants. There isn't much point in that though, if there's no planet.

What really annoys me is that Logan's just going against his family in an ooc manner, but then again he only really wants Hope.

If it got out of hand the X-Men would deal with it like they have ever other time 
 
@Lvenger: Well what else do you expect Marvel to do with this even? Also the PF started life on earth so it doesn't just destroy 
#10 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lvenger said:

@spiderbat87: Can that judgement be made yet? The Phoenix hasn't exactly been trustworthy in the past so how can it be ascertained that the Phoenix will restore the mutant race? So far it's just destroyed planets and it looks like those planets haven't come back yet. Phoenixes may be associated with rebirth but all the Phoenix Force has done so far is destroy.

In Point One, after it razed a planet, a plant was seen growing. 
 
Not a particularly reaffirming thought, but it supports the birth/rebirth trope. 
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#11 Posted by Lvenger (19032 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: It mostly destroys though. Jean Grey consumed entire stars when she was Dark Phoenix and destroyed entire solar systems. The kind of power the Phoenix Force has isn't meant to be controlled, it should be imprisoned or destroyed.

@Morpheus_: Was that planet the remains of Terrax's homeworld? And I don't really see the need to destroy one world teeming with life just to allow the growth of a new one. Admittedly planets and the life they contain will eventually end, ourselves included but that will be due to more natural causes. Well perhaps not the extinction of life, global warming caused by us seems to be doing that. But when a star explodes, that's a natural end to life, as natural as evolution. A near omnipotent cosmic entity destroying the world isn't a natural end to a planet's lifespan. Sorry if this is a bit depressing but I was just affirming the difference between the natural way planets tend to end and the Phoenix Force destroying the Earth.

#12 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: That's the problem though, we as readers know that there would always be a plot-device that would allow the X-Men to contain the Phoenix Force, but that's not the case for the characters within the actual book, so assuming that they would "the would deal with it, like they have every other time" is an assumption you just can't make, especially when the Phoenix has already destroyed Planet like it were nothing. This means that it can destroy Earth simply on a whim, so Cyclops is being extremely arrogant in thinking he can contain the Phoenix just like that, especially when we're not talking the Phoenix when its already in a host, but instead the Phoenix in its raw and natural form. So no, you can't assume that they would deal with the Phoenix just like that, because as far as Steve Rogers and everyone else on the planet is concerned, they simply don't have the raw power to do so. Therefore it would be much better for them to work together than to risk the planet dying because Cyclops thinks that this may help mutant kind.

Of course there's another side to this, but assuming that the X-Men can just "deal with it" if it goes south is a hasty assumption and generalization.

#13 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lvenger: the PF is a force of nature also if it's fare game to kill it then it should be the same for Franklin 
 
@ReVamp: So Cap things the best way to go about this is to invade Utopia, there home, and demand that they give over Hope because the Avengers are so much better equipped deal with it? Do you not see how completely hypocritical that is when not so long ago the roles where reversed when the X-Men wanted to take out the Scarlet Witch and the Avengers didn't? Anyway this is just a bullsh!t event for cheap thrills and Avengers fanwankery   
#14 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

So Cap things the best way to go about this is to invade Utopia, there home,

He went there to talk. The fight only began after Cyclops unnecessarily shot Steve.

and demand that they give over Hope because the Avengers are so much better equipped deal with it?

Not the Avengers. Steve being in charge of the Avengers has nothing to do with it, he's in charge of homeland security and Hope poses a threat for it, as such Steve has a duty to protect the innocent from the Phoenix.

Do you not see how completely hypocritical that is when not so long ago the roles where reversed when the X-Men wanted to take out the Scarlet Witch and the Avengers didn't?

Many Avengers did and its completely different. One is talking about Killing a person who no longer poses a threat to anyone, simply for her mistakes, and allowing the Mutants who all of a sudden are apparently a country to judge her for what she had done. They're not a country, they don't have government or laws, so it doesn't make sense for them to all of a sudden think they can "judge" someone and give them the "appropriate" punishment. In this case, the bad deed hasn't been done yet, Steve wants to protect people, not to punish Hope.

Anyway this is just a bullsh!t event for cheap thrills and Avengers fanwankery

Indeed. This could have been written much better, or even better, not written at all.

#15 Posted by Darcsteel (23 posts) - - Show Bio

I still dont see how Cap's actions are anything beyond a simple kidnapping. Hope dosen't want to go with im. Just what does he plan to do with her. What is his plan for Hope that he thinks has a better chance of succeding somewhere other then Utopia. Clearly he didn't know what Wolverine's solution would be which again I believe all the Xmen are being poorly written. Cyclops has been turned into a hyper militant version of magneto willing to kill anyone at the drop of a hat. I understand that he is disillusioned with Xavier and he feels that he needs to lead mutants in their time of crisis but this is a little much. And Logan decideing the best thing to do is kill Hope, wasnt the whole reason he left to protect the kids they were teaching. So if hope had gone with Logan he would have killed her as soon as she manifested the Phenoix (and he calls Cyke crazy). Final point: Cap went to utopia unannounced (no big deal), He demanded they turn over a 16 yr old girl that several mutants including Kurt died to protect (a lot of scrafices), A girl that happens to be Cykes granddaughter (if you think the family issue isnt in play here your crazy), And he came with a helicarrier full of avengers READY TO FIGHT. Cant stress that last point enough. They didnt go there expecting a peaceful resolution, They came ready to battle.

#16 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio
How could he not turn up on Utopia's shore with a S.H.I.E.L.D. Hellcarier full of dozens of Avengers

Exactly. How could he not? Showing up there, knowing full well that Cyclops probably wouldn't listen to reason, without any back up would be naive and stupid on his part. Besides, Cyclops already had his team out and ready for anything, which doesn't make him any better.

and demand that Cyclops hand over a sixteen year old girl, who represents the old real future of the mutant race and whom they've spent years trying to protect,

I'm not arguing with that, but what exactly does Cyclops intend to do with her? When the Phoenix comes, what is his plan? Surely he has to have some idea if he knows so much about the Phoenix.

It's not like the Avengers know nothing about the Phoenix Force, is it?

They know enough that it could/would destroy everything, and that's good enough for me. He consulted Beast and Wolverine, who have both had hands on experience with it, and when he tried to talk to Cyclops, he blasted him. What more could Steve do?

How very reasonable of Captain America.

I think so, yes.

Although Cyclops seems a little bit unhinged, The Avengers seem like ignorant bullies.

A little unhinged is putting it lightly. Cyclops isn't treating this as well as he could be. He's letting his personal emotions effect his course of thinking. I'm sure that somewhere he knows that if what he thinks won't work, that means the end of Earth altogether. Cap said that he wanted to work with Cyclops. After a series of "no's" and a blast to the shield, what else is he supposed to do? Just go home?

#17 Edited by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

A little unhinged is putting it lightly. Cyclops isn't treating this as well as he could be. He's letting his personal emotions effect his course of thinking. I'm sure that somewhere he knows that if what he thinks won't work, that means the end of Earth altogether. Cap said that he wanted to work with Cyclops. After a series of "no's" and a blast to the shield, what else is he supposed to do? Just go home?

I'm not really in support of either side in this case, just playing devil's advocate. I think Scott seems crazy but Captain America seems like an ignorant bully. He only offered to want to work with Scott after he stormed the shore with his Hellcarier. How even would the alliance be, I wonder? Doubt The Avengers would really let the X-Men work with them. I'm sure they'd just dominate, as usual.

The reality is The Avengers know nothing very little about the Phoenix, and definitely not about how to handle it. Captain America has displayed his ignorance by sending a team of his heaviest hitters out to space on a suicide mission to try and intercept it. Just no. How are they going to be able to do anything to stop it?

Did Captain America try and call the Shi'ar? Kree? More advanced civilisations with former Phoenix exposure, the first of whom has been able to kill the Phoenix before. No. What an absolute fail.

Taking Hope, already pretty emotionally unstable, away from her home is only going to serve to aggravate the situation. With little ability to stop the Phoenix, she's going to take her host anyway. Making Hope more unstable is more likely to generate another Dark Phoenix.

Moreover, Cyclops isn't just acting on accord of his own "fanatical beliefs". He's acting to avoid the future that Cable saw.

#18 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

So Cap things the best way to go about this is to invade Utopia, there home,

He went there to talk. The fight only began after Cyclops unnecessarily shot Steve.

and demand that they give over Hope because the Avengers are so much better equipped deal with it?

Not the Avengers. Steve being in charge of the Avengers has nothing to do with it, he's in charge of homeland security and Hope poses a threat for it, as such Steve has a duty to protect the innocent from the Phoenix.

Do you not see how completely hypocritical that is when not so long ago the roles where reversed when the X-Men wanted to take out the Scarlet Witch and the Avengers didn't?

Many Avengers did and its completely different. One is talking about Killing a person who no longer poses a threat to anyone, simply for her mistakes, and allowing the Mutants who all of a sudden are apparently a country to judge her for what she had done. They're not a country, they don't have government or laws, so it doesn't make sense for them to all of a sudden think they can "judge" someone and give them the "appropriate" punishment. In this case, the bad deed hasn't been done yet, Steve wants to protect people, not to punish Hope.

Anyway this is just a bullsh!t event for cheap thrills and Avengers fanwankery

Indeed. This could have been written much better, or even better, not written at all.

1/2. He never went just to talk, that was even stated at one point. He invaded there home and with an army of Avengers ready to fight, if some one invaded your home with loaded weapons and demanded to take your daughter what would you do? If the X-Men believed Franklin Richards to be a threat would it be ok for them to storm the Baxter Building and kidnap him? 
 
3. Nobody can judge that Hope is a threat and Wanda isn't, there is absolutely no solid proof ether way also Utopia have a seat on the UN and there own semi-government and jail, they are well on there way to becoming a nation. The reason Utopia was created was so they where off US soil and so the government had no jurisdiction, that's how they where able to avoid the Registration Act and HAMMER for so long    
#19 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

So Cap things the best way to go about this is to invade Utopia, there home,

He went there to talk. The fight only began after Cyclops unnecessarily shot Steve.

and demand that they give over Hope because the Avengers are so much better equipped deal with it?

Not the Avengers. Steve being in charge of the Avengers has nothing to do with it, he's in charge of homeland security and Hope poses a threat for it, as such Steve has a duty to protect the innocent from the Phoenix.

Do you not see how completely hypocritical that is when not so long ago the roles where reversed when the X-Men wanted to take out the Scarlet Witch and the Avengers didn't?

Many Avengers did and its completely different. One is talking about Killing a person who no longer poses a threat to anyone, simply for her mistakes, and allowing the Mutants who all of a sudden are apparently a country to judge her for what she had done. They're not a country, they don't have government or laws, so it doesn't make sense for them to all of a sudden think they can "judge" someone and give them the "appropriate" punishment. In this case, the bad deed hasn't been done yet, Steve wants to protect people, not to punish Hope.

Anyway this is just a bullsh!t event for cheap thrills and Avengers fanwankery

Indeed. This could have been written much better, or even better, not written at all.

1/2. He never went just to talk, that was even stated at one point. He invaded there home and with an army of Avengers ready to fight, if some one invaded your home with loaded weapons and demanded to take your daughter what would you do? If the X-Men believed Franklin Richards to be a threat would it be ok for them to storm the Baxter Building and kidnap him? 3. Nobody can judge that Hope is a threat and Wanda isn't, there is absolutely no solid proof ether way also Utopia have a seat on the UN and there own semi-government and jail, they are well on there way to becoming a nation. The reason Utopia was created was so they where off US soil and so the government had no jurisdiction, that's how they where able to avoid the Registration Act and HAMMER for so long

Made me laugh, haha.

#20 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

A little unhinged is putting it lightly. Cyclops isn't treating this as well as he could be. He's letting his personal emotions effect his course of thinking. I'm sure that somewhere he knows that if what he thinks won't work, that means the end of Earth altogether. Cap said that he wanted to work with Cyclops. After a series of "no's" and a blast to the shield, what else is he supposed to do? Just go home?

I'm not really in support of either side in this case, just playing devil's advocate. I think Scott seems crazy but Captain America seems like an ignorant bully. He only offered to want to work with Scott after he stormed the shore with his Hellcarier. How even would the alliance be? Doubt The Avengers would really let the X-Men work with them.

The reality is they know nothing very little about the Phoenix, and definitely not about how to handle it. Captain America has displayed his ignorance by sending a team of his heaviest hitters out to space on a suicide mission to try and intercept it. Just no. How are they going to be able to do anything to stop it? Taking Hope, already pretty emotionally unstable, away from her home is only going to serve to aggravate the situation.

Understood, but honestly? If Cyclops were to actually aid Captain America with this, I think they'd at least be better prepared. He's really the only one who'd bring useful information to the table, imo. Much more than Storm, Beast or even Wolverine, who seems to have his own agenda altogether.

Neither side knows anything for sure. Steve is the head of SHIELD (or whatever the heck they call themselves), so he's obligated to do something about the manner. I'll admit, he's pretty ignorant for sending some of his heaviest hitters to try and intercept it, but Idk about just sitting there and waiting. Just doesn't feel right to me. If Hope is as big a threat as she's supposed to be, and unable to control herself, putting her somewhere safer feels right. I do feel that this whole situation could be handled a lot better, though.

Honestly, the whole thing is just so poorly written. Both Cap and Cyclops are so much smarter than this, but Cyclops especially is being stupid here.

#21 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024: Quake is the director of SHIELD at the moment 
#22 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87:

  1. No, they went there for hope, but they'd have worked with the X-Men.
  2. The Avengers were back up. He'd be Naive to go without them.
  3. That's not relevant, because X-Men aren't in charge of the lives of innocent people and they can't do the job better than Reed Richards could. If Franklin was a threat, Reed Richards would solve it. Because, let's face it, he's shot Franklin before.
  4. It doesn't matter whether you think that Wanda is a threat or not (no offense), because it comes down to the fact that neither Cyclops nor CA saw her as such. Cyclops wanted to punish her for what she had done, not because he still deemed her a threat after being depowered.
  5. But they aren't one, and even if they were, they're putting in danger everyone on earth.
#23 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@Gambit1024: Quake is the director of SHIELD at the moment

Huh. Isn't Cap head of something? Homeland security or something?

#24 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

A little unhinged is putting it lightly. Cyclops isn't treating this as well as he could be. He's letting his personal emotions effect his course of thinking. I'm sure that somewhere he knows that if what he thinks won't work, that means the end of Earth altogether. Cap said that he wanted to work with Cyclops. After a series of "no's" and a blast to the shield, what else is he supposed to do? Just go home?

I'm not really in support of either side in this case, just playing devil's advocate. I think Scott seems crazy but Captain America seems like an ignorant bully. He only offered to want to work with Scott after he stormed the shore with his Hellcarier. How even would the alliance be? Doubt The Avengers would really let the X-Men work with them.

The reality is they know nothing very little about the Phoenix, and definitely not about how to handle it. Captain America has displayed his ignorance by sending a team of his heaviest hitters out to space on a suicide mission to try and intercept it. Just no. How are they going to be able to do anything to stop it? Taking Hope, already pretty emotionally unstable, away from her home is only going to serve to aggravate the situation.

Understood, but honestly? If Cyclops were to actually aid Captain America with this, I think they'd at least be better prepared. He's really the only one who'd bring useful information to the table, imo. Much more than Storm, Beast or even Wolverine, who seems to have his own agenda altogether.

Neither side knows anything for sure. Steve is the head of SHIELD (or whatever the heck they call themselves), so he's obligated to do something about the manner. I'll admit, he's pretty ignorant for sending some of his heaviest hitters to try and intercept it, but Idk about just sitting there and waiting. Just doesn't feel right to me. If Hope is as big a threat as she's supposed to be, and unable to control herself, putting her somewhere safer feels right. I do feel that this whole situation could be handled a lot better, though.

Honestly, the whole thing is just so poorly written. Both Cap and Cyclops are so much smarter than this, but Cyclops especially is being stupid here.

Second to this, Cyclops has a plan for everything. I'm not sure he'd just let the world burn on the off shot that the mutant race would survive. I think Cyclops is working on a more definite course, in the long run protecting the future of the world by letting Hope become Phoenix.

#25 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

A little unhinged is putting it lightly. Cyclops isn't treating this as well as he could be. He's letting his personal emotions effect his course of thinking. I'm sure that somewhere he knows that if what he thinks won't work, that means the end of Earth altogether. Cap said that he wanted to work with Cyclops. After a series of "no's" and a blast to the shield, what else is he supposed to do? Just go home?

I'm not really in support of either side in this case, just playing devil's advocate. I think Scott seems crazy but Captain America seems like an ignorant bully. He only offered to want to work with Scott after he stormed the shore with his Hellcarier. How even would the alliance be? Doubt The Avengers would really let the X-Men work with them.

The reality is they know nothing very little about the Phoenix, and definitely not about how to handle it. Captain America has displayed his ignorance by sending a team of his heaviest hitters out to space on a suicide mission to try and intercept it. Just no. How are they going to be able to do anything to stop it? Taking Hope, already pretty emotionally unstable, away from her home is only going to serve to aggravate the situation.

Understood, but honestly? If Cyclops were to actually aid Captain America with this, I think they'd at least be better prepared. He's really the only one who'd bring useful information to the table, imo. Much more than Storm, Beast or even Wolverine, who seems to have his own agenda altogether.

Neither side knows anything for sure. Steve is the head of SHIELD (or whatever the heck they call themselves), so he's obligated to do something about the manner. I'll admit, he's pretty ignorant for sending some of his heaviest hitters to try and intercept it, but Idk about just sitting there and waiting. Just doesn't feel right to me. If Hope is as big a threat as she's supposed to be, and unable to control herself, putting her somewhere safer feels right. I do feel that this whole situation could be handled a lot better, though.

Honestly, the whole thing is just so poorly written. Both Cap and Cyclops are so much smarter than this, but Cyclops especially is being stupid here.

Second to this, Cyclops has a plan for everything. I'm not sure he'd just let the world burn on the off shot that the mutant race would survive. I think Cyclops is working on a more definite course, in the long run protecting the future of the world by letting Hope become Phoenix.

If he was, then I'd've never seen it coming, lol. The way he's been written so far in this event just points to him having hope, in Hope (word play totally intended). Nothing more, nothing less.

#26 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

@John Valentine said:

@Gambit1024 said:

A little unhinged is putting it lightly. Cyclops isn't treating this as well as he could be. He's letting his personal emotions effect his course of thinking. I'm sure that somewhere he knows that if what he thinks won't work, that means the end of Earth altogether. Cap said that he wanted to work with Cyclops. After a series of "no's" and a blast to the shield, what else is he supposed to do? Just go home?

I'm not really in support of either side in this case, just playing devil's advocate. I think Scott seems crazy but Captain America seems like an ignorant bully. He only offered to want to work with Scott after he stormed the shore with his Hellcarier. How even would the alliance be? Doubt The Avengers would really let the X-Men work with them.

The reality is they know nothing very little about the Phoenix, and definitely not about how to handle it. Captain America has displayed his ignorance by sending a team of his heaviest hitters out to space on a suicide mission to try and intercept it. Just no. How are they going to be able to do anything to stop it? Taking Hope, already pretty emotionally unstable, away from her home is only going to serve to aggravate the situation.

Understood, but honestly? If Cyclops were to actually aid Captain America with this, I think they'd at least be better prepared. He's really the only one who'd bring useful information to the table, imo. Much more than Storm, Beast or even Wolverine, who seems to have his own agenda altogether.

Neither side knows anything for sure. Steve is the head of SHIELD (or whatever the heck they call themselves), so he's obligated to do something about the manner. I'll admit, he's pretty ignorant for sending some of his heaviest hitters to try and intercept it, but Idk about just sitting there and waiting. Just doesn't feel right to me. If Hope is as big a threat as she's supposed to be, and unable to control herself, putting her somewhere safer feels right. I do feel that this whole situation could be handled a lot better, though.

Honestly, the whole thing is just so poorly written. Both Cap and Cyclops are so much smarter than this, but Cyclops especially is being stupid here.

Second to this, Cyclops has a plan for everything. I'm not sure he'd just let the world burn on the off shot that the mutant race would survive. I think Cyclops is working on a more definite course, in the long run protecting the future of the world by letting Hope become Phoenix.

If he was, then I'd've never seen it coming, lol. The way he's been written so far in this event just points to him having hope, in Hope (word play totally intended). Nothing more, nothing less.

I swear that part of the reason for X-Sanction was the lead into AvX. It at least gives some sort of reasoning behind his actions. I swear I read that Cable would return in AvX too. Could be wrong.

#27 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87:

  1. No, they went there for hope, but they'd have worked with the X-Men.
  2. The Avengers were back up. He'd be Naive to go without them.
  3. That's not relevant, because X-Men aren't in charge of the lives of innocent people and they can't do the job better than Reed Richards could. If Franklin was a threat, Reed Richards would solve it. Because, let's face it, he's shot Franklin before.
  4. It doesn't matter whether you think that Wanda is a threat or not (no offense), because it comes down to the fact that neither Cyclops nor CA saw her as such. Cyclops wanted to punish her for what she had done, not because he still deemed her a threat after being depowered.
  5. But they aren't one, and even if they were, they're putting in danger everyone on earth.
1. It was stated the where prepared to fight, if Cap wanted to talk a simple phone call would be quicker and more logical than stumbling in this half cocked  
2. It's stupid to bring an army to a politically sensitive situation 
3. But the X-Men are in charge of every innocent mutant and they can do there job better than the Avengers no matter what Cap thinks, the same thing you just said about Reed and Franklin applies to the X-Men and the PF 
4.I see what your saying 
5.If the US has no jurisdiction on Utopia then it's more like a reservation. They aren't putting anyone in danger because they haven't actually done anything  
#28 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambit1024 said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Gambit1024: Quake is the director of SHIELD at the moment

Huh. Isn't Cap head of something? Homeland security or something?

I'm sure he's the head of something but it's not SHIELD 
#29 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine: We'll see then, I guess.

@spiderbat87 said:

@Gambit1024 said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Gambit1024: Quake is the director of SHIELD at the moment

Huh. Isn't Cap head of something? Homeland security or something?

I'm sure he's the head of something but it's not SHIELD

Ah, my mistake then.

#30 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

  1. It doesn't matter whether you think that Wanda is a threat or not (no offense), because it comes down to the fact that neither Cyclops nor CA saw her as such. Cyclops wanted to punish her for what she had done, not because he still deemed her a threat after being depowered.

Still, it seems to be ridiculous to me. Wanda could snap any time again, being liable to manipulation only makes it more probable. If the Avengers want Hope, they should have given Cyclops the Scarlett Witch.

Double standards for the Avengers and everyone else.

#31 Edited by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

I don't understand why there is any confusion here? The PF is on the way --- its eating planets along the way -- time is of the essence -- Cyclops thinks that billions of people are equal to his 200 (which by the way --- according to both him AND Hope they are still sworn to protect) and Captain America is the bad guy?

Wuh?

I am an X-Man fan --- not too much on the Avengers. And to me, Captain America didn't show up to Utopia with an "army". Cyclops dealt the first shot -- then the Avengers came raining down. First we see Hope all "I can take care of myself" and off she tears off to San Francisco to beat up some baddies bloody and pulpy (against Cyclops' wishes) and Cyclops' still thinks she can handle the PF? That kid who suddenly is huddling on the rock, terrified --- Emma taking her away to "protect" her?

Come on now. I hate how Cyclops is being written - and yes - there is a nasty plot device that going to bite all us fans in the @ss that will set CV ablaze with fury --- but to argue that Cyclops is within rights to take this upon his shoulders when behaving isolationist is a little much.

When you got Magneto saying "take it easy" - that's a pretty big warning sign. To me anyway. Just my two pence.

Smartest thing I've heard all day.

Also, if Hope was an adult (meaning 18+), I feel that this whole situation would be perceived very differently.

#32 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@ReVamp said:

  1. It doesn't matter whether you think that Wanda is a threat or not (no offense), because it comes down to the fact that neither Cyclops nor CA saw her as such. Cyclops wanted to punish her for what she had done, not because he still deemed her a threat after being depowered.

Still, it seems to be ridiculous to me. Wanda could snap any time again, being liable to manipulation only makes it more probable. If the Avengers want Hope, they should have given Cyclops the Scarlett Witch.

Double standards for the Avengers and everyone else.

SW is depowered IIRC. Don't want to spoil anything, but her powers got stolen. That's why mutants weren't repowered.

@spiderbat87 said:

1. It was stated the where prepared to fight, if Cap wanted to talk a simple phone call would be quicker and more logical than stumbling in this half cocked 2. It's stupid to bring an army to a politically sensitive situation 3. But the X-Men are in charge of every innocent mutant and they can do there job better than the Avengers no matter what Cap thinks, the same thing you just said about Reed and Franklin applies to the X-Men and the PF 4.I see what your saying 5.If the US has no jurisdiction on Utopia then it's more like a reservation. They aren't putting anyone in danger because they haven't actually done anything
  1. No, but the matter is urgent, so he went there. He's not going to waste time phoning people.
  2. The X-Men didn't even know they were there, it could have just been SHIELD agents for all they know. So while I agree, the matter has its urgency.
  3. But every innocent mutant is in Winchester, the ones that are in Utopia are soldiers. They can? How? They don't have the raw power to do so, the only thing they can do to my knowledge is to teach hope to control it.

5. They're putting them in danger by not taking measures to contain the Phoenix.

#33 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

@ReVamp said:

  1. It doesn't matter whether you think that Wanda is a threat or not (no offense), because it comes down to the fact that neither Cyclops nor CA saw her as such. Cyclops wanted to punish her for what she had done, not because he still deemed her a threat after being depowered.

Still, it seems to be ridiculous to me. Wanda could snap any time again, being liable to manipulation only makes it more probable. If the Avengers want Hope, they should have given Cyclops the Scarlett Witch.

Double standards for the Avengers and everyone else.

SW is depowered IIRC. Don't want to spoil anything, but her powers got stolen. That's why mutants weren't repowered.

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

#34 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

@ReVamp said:

  1. It doesn't matter whether you think that Wanda is a threat or not (no offense), because it comes down to the fact that neither Cyclops nor CA saw her as such. Cyclops wanted to punish her for what she had done, not because he still deemed her a threat after being depowered.

Still, it seems to be ridiculous to me. Wanda could snap any time again, being liable to manipulation only makes it more probable. If the Avengers want Hope, they should have given Cyclops the Scarlett Witch.

Double standards for the Avengers and everyone else.

SW is depowered IIRC. Don't want to spoil anything, but her powers got stolen. That's why mutants weren't repowered.

@spiderbat87 said:

1. It was stated the where prepared to fight, if Cap wanted to talk a simple phone call would be quicker and more logical than stumbling in this half cocked 2. It's stupid to bring an army to a politically sensitive situation 3. But the X-Men are in charge of every innocent mutant and they can do there job better than the Avengers no matter what Cap thinks, the same thing you just said about Reed and Franklin applies to the X-Men and the PF 4.I see what your saying 5.If the US has no jurisdiction on Utopia then it's more like a reservation. They aren't putting anyone in danger because they haven't actually done anything
  1. No, but the matter is urgent, so he went there. He's not going to waste time phoning people.
  2. The X-Men didn't even know they were there, it could have just been SHIELD agents for all they know. So while I agree, the matter has its urgency.
  3. But every innocent mutant is in Winchester, the ones that are in Utopia are soldiers. They can? How? They don't have the raw power to do so, the only thing they can do to my knowledge is to teach hope to control it.

5. They're putting them in danger by not taking measures to contain the Phoenix.

1. Phoning is quicker than forming and army and flying across the country 
2.They have telepaths, they knew 
3. Utopian mutants are still innocent, they just chose to fight for there race rather than hide in a school and hope that all the shit they went through before won't just happen all over again. They have far more experience going up against the PF over the years, Cap will bring nothing to the table that isn't stupid suicide missions. 
4.Cyk has a plan and that's what he is preparing for. Hope will restart the Mutant race just like she was created for in the first place 
#35 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

#36 Posted by FinnVarra (226 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly this event is being pretty poorly written so does it even matter who is right and who is wrong. The whole point is for the Avengers and the X-Men to fight each other, the plot of why just seems like an after thought.

Cap would be naive to go without backup? Not really, it's not like he was going to deal with a den full of super villians. If he really wanted to deal with it peacefully he would have come alone, the presence of the Helicarrier and the other Avengers only ensured that a fight would occur.

What exactly was Cap planning on doing with Hope anyhow? Seems like she was fine just where she was, I fail to see how bringing her onto US soil would be an improvement since they can't really stop the PF from getting to her anyway. Seems it would just put more innocents in the PF's path.

#37 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

No, I don't think she is. She was up-powered anyway, right?

#38 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself 
#39 Posted by Saren (25553 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself

I think Doom lost it at the end of The Children's Crusade when he burned himself out.

Moderator Online
#40 Posted by FinnVarra (226 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

He is correct, she is no longer at HoM power level.

#41 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself

I think Doom lost it at the end of The Children's Crusade when he burned himself out.

Exactly. That's how I recall it, and I just went through it again. Conclusion: She isn't really a threat anymore.

#42 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself

I think Doom lost it at the end of The Children's Crusade when he burned himself out.

Exactly. That's how I recall it, and I just went through it again. Conclusion: She isn't really a threat anymore.

She still has her own powers and also nobody should really know in comic if she really has lost her powers
#43 Posted by Saren (25553 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself

I think Doom lost it at the end of The Children's Crusade when he burned himself out.

Exactly. That's how I recall it, and I just went through it again. Conclusion: She isn't really a threat anymore.

If she does have them, I'll bet 10 bucks they'll write Scott getting her to say "No more Avengers" or something similarly asinine by playing on her guilt from causing M-Day.

Moderator Online
#44 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@spiderbat87 said:
@ReVamp said:

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself

I think Doom lost it at the end of The Children's Crusade when he burned himself out.

Exactly. That's how I recall it, and I just went through it again. Conclusion: She isn't really a threat anymore.

She still has her own powers and also nobody should really know in comic if she really has lost her powers
The Avengers and the X-Men were right in front of Doom and even fought him after he usurped the Life Force. They either have extremely short attention span or they do, in fact, know Wanda is no longer as powerful as she used to.
Moderator
#45 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@ReVamp said:

@CitizenBane said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

I've just checked several places and they all seem to indicate she's still powered. Again, she was able to alter reality across multiple, dimensions too. She should have be made to pay for her crimes.

That's another discussion that I won't get into, but I'm pretty sure she's not powered (to that level, that is).

She is back at her regular level of power, from M-Day up till CC she was powered up by the "Life Force" that may or may not have been put there by Dr Doom who then removed it for himself

I think Doom lost it at the end of The Children's Crusade when he burned himself out.

Exactly. That's how I recall it, and I just went through it again. Conclusion: She isn't really a threat anymore.

If she does have them, I'll bet 10 bucks they'll write Scott getting her to say "No more Avengers" or something similarly asinine by playing on her guilt from causing M-Day.

That "No More Avengers" thing is used in one of the solicits

@Morpheus_: Or, in fact, it was a ruse all long set up by some one with incredibly powerful probability powers

#46 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

1. Phoning is quicker than forming and army and flying across the country 2.They have telepaths, they knew 3. Utopian mutants are still innocent, they just chose to fight for there race rather than hide in a school and hope that all the shit they went through before won't just happen all over again. They have far more experience going up against the PF over the years, Cap will bring nothing to the table that isn't stupid suicide missions. 4.Cyk has a plan and that's what he is preparing for. Hope will restart the Mutant race just like she was created for in the first place

1. Sure it is, but they want hope. Remember their objective.

2. I'm not sure the telepaths were scanning Cap. Remember Emma even asked something and Namor said that he 'knew cap' so it was already serious.

3. Soldiers aren't innocent. That's all I'll say.

4. Perhaps, but his plan involves Hope as a Mutant Messiah and not everyone believes she's what they claim she is.

#47 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@Gambit1024: Quake is the director of SHIELD at the moment

...Not really, she's in charge of Fury's team, but that's different.

I'm pretty sure that Steve Rogers is in charge of what used to be SHIELD and HAMMER.

#48 Posted by Morpheus_ (29873 posts) - - Show Bio
@spiderbat87 said:

@Morpheus_: Or, in fact, it was a ruse all long set up by some one with incredibly powerful probability powers

Such as?
Moderator
#49 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_: I think he's joking.

#50 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

1. Phoning is quicker than forming and army and flying across the country 2.They have telepaths, they knew 3. Utopian mutants are still innocent, they just chose to fight for there race rather than hide in a school and hope that all the shit they went through before won't just happen all over again. They have far more experience going up against the PF over the years, Cap will bring nothing to the table that isn't stupid suicide missions. 4.Cyk has a plan and that's what he is preparing for. Hope will restart the Mutant race just like she was created for in the first place

1. Sure it is, but they want hope. Remember their objective.

2. I'm not sure the telepaths were scanning Cap. Remember Emma even asked something and Namor said that he 'knew cap' so it was already serious.

3. Soldiers aren't innocent. That's all I'll say.

4. Perhaps, but his plan involves Hope as a Mutant Messiah and not everyone believes she's what they claim she is.

and why is that?

@ReVamp said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@Gambit1024: Quake is the director of SHIELD at the moment

...Not really, she's in charge of Fury's team, but that's different.

I'm pretty sure that Steve Rogers is in charge of what used to be SHIELD and HAMMER.

in Battle Scars (sorry I don't have the scan):

Furys Son:"SHIELD was disbanded months ago"

Quake: "It was, we'r still forming the new origination"

Furys son: "And your in charge of it?"

Quake: "Daisy Jonson, Director of SHIELD. Is that a problem?"

@Morpheus_: Scarlet Witch, Doom, Both. My point is just because the characters think they see one thing doesn't mean they should take it at face value, there should have been tests done on her, psychological, magical and scientific to determine if she was still a danger insted of going "oh hay, she's lost her powers, oh well lets go home and bake cookies"

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